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Apple v. Samsung damages breakdown revealed in jury verdict form - Page 2

post #41 of 91
The way I see it, Apple claimed Samsung copied. Samsung counterclaimed. The jury awarded Apple 755 times MORE than Samsung. Who is the worse copier? Samsung, by far.

Cased closed.

(In actuality, I don't think Apple consciously copied anything, but Samsung's counterclaim had to be recognized with a token award.)
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What an ugly fucking form. Using a row of parenthesis as a divider? Really? Was this done using a typewriter from the 1950s?

I feel bad for Jurors having to fill out this confusing piece of shit form.

Hey, the head of jury was an ex-ibm executive! What did you expect?!! ROFLAMO

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post #43 of 91

Let's have a look at a few headlines:

 

US Jury Says Samsung, Apple Both Infringed Patents

- Yahoo News

 

Apple Win Falls Short of $2 Billion Sought From Samsung

- Bloomberg

 

Court Issues Mixed Verdict in Apple-Samsung Trial

- Al Jazeera America

 

US Jury Orders Samsung To Pay Apple $120 Million

- Reuters

 

Google A Winner In Apple-Samsung Verdict

- Re/code

 

The Jury Is In: Samsung Infringes, But Damages To Apple Are A "Mere" $120M

- ArsTechnica

 

Apple-Samsung Jury Splits the Baby: The Experts Weigh In

- Fortune

 

Mixed Verdict In Apple-Samsung Patent Fight

- New York Times

 

Federal Jury Finds Samsung and Apple Both Guilty of Patent Infringement

- New York Daily News

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post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharmkid02 View Post

Samsung was found guilty.

If Samsung have been found guilty does this mean that the US can ban imports of the offending items. If so this maybe why Apple is now looking at the s5. Also I wonder if the unclear judgement form was. Of a way to gauge the response from both parties before passing a final judgement. At the moment the jurors could use judge Kou's request to clarify the verdict to hammer Samsung if they get cocky or whine. Also by the definition of Samsung's own council this is a win for apple that should see them dancing in the streets of Cupretino. So yep a own for Apple indeed
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post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Let's have a look at a few headlines:

US Jury Says Samsung, Apple Both Infringed Patents
- Yahoo News

Apple Win Falls Short of $2 Billion Sought From Samsung
- Bloomberg

Court Issues Mixed Verdict in Apple-Samsung Trial
- Al Jazeera America

US Jury Orders Samsung To Pay Apple $120 Million
- Reuters

Google A Winner In Apple-Samsung Verdict
- Re/code

The Jury Is In: Samsung Infringes, But Damages To Apple Are A "Mere" $120M
- ArsTechnica

Apple-Samsung Jury Splits the Baby: The Experts Weigh In
- Fortune

Mixed Verdict In Apple-Samsung Patent Fight
- New York Times

Federal Jury Finds Samsung and Apple Both Guilty of Patent Infringement
- New York Daily News

Of those I would only rate Reuters and New York Times as reliable unbiased news providers that are internationally recognised. Oh what a supprise no pro Samsung gluoting 1hmm.gif
post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfisher View Post

Steve Jobs quotes come back to haunt Apple:

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the Navy.
  • At a retreat in September 1982, as quoted in John Sculley
     and John A. Byrne, Odyssey: Pepsi to Apple – A Journey of Adventure, Ideas, and the Future (1987), p. 157


  • Variant: Why join the Navy . . . if you can be a pirate?



Compared to Samsung, Apple is the newer kid on the block in the cellphone business. Samsung also has more diverse businesses and broader distribution over the decades. Apple has to build these from scratch.

It's just that the rookie decided to focus on top end of the market and has taken in a lot of profit. Samsung, the incumbent, spends tons of money on marcom and market development funds to defend itself. The other big players failed.

Apple is mostly still focusing on its business network and management line up. They seem to set up a different business relationship with the telcos compared to traditional "buffet style" cellphone businesses.

It looks like they are more or less done. We will probably see Apple talk more about its new self moving forward.
Edited by patsu - 5/3/14 at 8:42am
post #47 of 91
What if Apple knows what it's doing? Imagine that.

What if it sees these as useless but necessary fights? What choice does it have? The moment it quits aggressively defending and acquiring IP, thousands of little IP insects will begin sucking blood bits out of it in court.

What if massive legal costs are precisely what Apple uses to ward off death by mosquito bites? If so, the more maniacal Apple looks, the more like a bloody nutcase (think Cheney) willing to go thermonuclear on costs, the better. And what are the net legal costs, after taxes?

Outside court, Apple clearly focuses on significant tech that it can own materially, not just on IP paper that's not worth a damn: touch ID, sapphire, A7, M7. Yesterday Apple bought a display tech company. Apple spent more on acquiring tech companies than Google last year. And a hellava lot more on acqs relevant to its core business.

I don't see where Apple has in any way given up creative invention for legal reaction. When's the last time Apple put its head in the noose, relying on IP advantage alone?

It did once. Let's not forget, as Daniel Eran Dilger says, this has all happened before. Apple lost big time relying on court battles in the nineties. Is it likely to rely on lawyers today? Really? I don't think so. Burned twice, shame on Apple.

It knows better.
post #48 of 91

Moving forward, I suspect Apple will continue to sue other companies that imitate its design too closely. Like Luis Vuitton defending its look from imitators. Besides Samsung, there will be tons of me-toos from China. But it is of course not the only means for Apple to grow.

They will continue to innovate in an integrated fashion, as opposed to the old, piece-meal feature-by-feature releases in the traditional cellphone businesses.

 

If we look at Apple more closely, they seem to be rebuilding their infrastructure from the ground up for the past few years. More focus on environment-friendly technologies and energy, a broader business network based on integrated ecosystem, acquiring skillets to make a full computer by itself, reimagining how to build a computer (Mac Pro and factory innovation), recruiting savvy business leaders to cover Jobs' multiple roles in the past, redefining relationships with customers and partners with 7-to-1 stock split, etc.

As a company, they have actually grown systematically, as opposed to haphazard acquisition and hire+fire in the traditional US cooperate space.

post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfisher View Post

Steve Jobs quotes come back to haunt Apple:

It's more fun to be a pirate than to join the Navy.
  • At a retreat in September 1982, as quoted in John Sculley
     and John A. Byrne, Odyssey: Pepsi to Apple – A Journey of Adventure, Ideas, and the Future (1987), p. 157


  • Variant: Why join the Navy . . . if you can be a pirate?


The subtleties in the Jobs quote obviously elude you. Jobs was talking about fighting against "the establishment," not literally being a pirate (thief). The monolithic culture of IBM and the tastelessness of Microsoft was what Jobs rebelled against. Chalk it up to youthful exuberance, it was not a justification for willful patent infringement, you cretin.
Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/3/14 at 9:18am

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post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post
 

The results of this trial are exactly what proponents of no software patents were looking for. Now they can go full speed ahead and force the bogus USPTO to get rid of all software patents. After all, software is just a bunch of words and how can you patent words? /s

 

I relate Samsung's penalty to driving 120mph through a residential neighborhood and getting a $10 fine. This fine won't stop Samsung and it won't stop any other company from willfully using Apple's patented products. The only thing that would stop them would be an injunction and Judge Koh would never do that.

 

What bother's me more than these results, however, is how Americans view Apple and Samsung. In many ways, I see Samsung being looked at as the better product producing company and Apple looking like the old "made in Japan," then "Made in China" products of a few decades ago. So many stores carry Samsung products while refusing to carry Apple products (either because they can't get good margins or Apple won't let them). What is the unknowing person supposed to think? Obviously that Samsung has better products because Costco, Best Buy, Walmart, Sam's Club, the local grocery store, and the corner 7-11 all carry their products so they must be the best ones on the market. Yes, marketing does convert a whole lot of people, including, in the case of this trial, the eight jurists who also obviously didn't find that much wrong with what Samsung did.


Walmart, local grocery store, 7-11 carrying products from samsung only devalues the product, not labeling it as better product.  In fact, Costco had a fall-out with Apple, which is why they're no longer allowed to carry Apple products.  Sam's club is like samsung, they try really hard to copy Costco.  I've been a Costco member for 14 years and a Sam's club member for half a year and I can tell you that even though Costco is 10 miles away from where I live while Sam's club is only walking distance away, I still prefer to go to Costco for my QUALITY products needs.  Sam's club's products are inferior to Costco's product in every way.  Starting with the $1.50 hot dog... Any product that both stores carry, Costco's prices are better.  One might notice that Sam's club items "appear" to be less expensive until one reads the label and sees that Sam's club size is smaller compare to Costco's size.  For example, a bag of chip at Costco may be 8oz for $1.99 and Sam's club has the same bag of chips at 6oz for $1.79... As you can see, the size is 1/4 smaller but the price is only 1/10 less.  So for Costco, it's about 25 cent/oz whereas for Sam's club, it's actually 30 cent/oz.  Don't get tricked by their marketing schemes.

 

I'm currently an executive Costco member... that's how great Costco is... As for Sam's club, I spent a total of $5 on one year membership from their promotion.  Let's just say that once my membership is over, I will not be renewing with Sam's.

post #51 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What an ugly fucking form. Using a row of parenthesis as a divider? Really? Was this done using a typewriter from the 1950s?

I feel bad for Jurors having to fill out this confusing piece of shit form.

 

The substitution of the single parenthesis is the lazy way of what was commonly done on the typewriter which was to type a open paren then backspace and type a closed paren - which was actually a substitution for § (opt-5) in the style / header of the case.

 

I agree that is not very clean looking on the form but there is a whole lot more to complain about than that. Who about the content and the use of double negatives for one.

post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbia View Post

Hey, the head of jury was an ex-ibm executive! What did you expect?!! ROFLAMO

What's an IBM? And why did autocorrect change it to all caps? /s

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post #53 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post


The worst part about these trials is that Judge Koh would only allow a few patents to be asserted at a time. Apple has plenty more and could have brought upwards of 20-50 (I'm guessing) while Samsung had very few.

I agree with this part of your post. It is understandable why the judge only allows a few patents per trial, but it works to Samsung's advantage that no jury ever sees the comprehensive extent of Samsung's copying.
post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post
 

 

Not in the US system.  It sounds good on paper but there are serious downsides to that system as well.  I sue you for whatever reason for $100,000.   You hire a lawyer for $10,000 to defend you.  I bring my team of the worlds top lawyers for $1,000,000.  My team of lawyers wins.  You owe me $100,000 in damages and $1,000,000 in legal fees.  Plus you still owe your lawyer $10,000.

 

So the 'loser pays' system would need all kinds of even more jargon in it to prevent abuse.  We're lawsuit trigger happy enough in the US already.

 

In this case it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for Apple.  I believe Samsung's legal fees were higher.  Since Apple lost their portion of the case should they then be required to pick up Samsung's legal fees as well?

 

In some countries, they have a system wherein only the litigant pays their opponent's fees if they lose.  This has the benefits of deterring patent trolls from bringing suit, but also prevents the concern you mentioned above.  The little defendant wouldn't have to pay your million dollar fees, so it wouldn't be worth it to bring such a suit.

post #55 of 91

Apple's lawyers, on the whole, come through as a rather unimpressive bunch. (I am including the saps who argued in front of Cote as well).

 

They seem to lack the chutzpah of those representing Samsung.

post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Apple should buy a controlling stake in Xiaomi and gut the low-end Android market, thus robbing Samsung of their marketshare. Disembowel the enemy before he has time to think.

Apple should look into buying a good legal team first. Samsung put on a textbook defense, even getting a judgement against Apple. 

post #57 of 91

Let Samsung enjoy some rare good news amid its ongoing shrinking profits and plateaued revenue.

 

http://pds.joins.com/jmnet/koreajoongangdaily/_data/photo/2014/01/08010541.jpg

 

Here is how I read the jury's verdict.  20something million divided by 150K = Samsung is 800 times a bigger thief than Apple.

post #58 of 91

Now that the trial is over, Samsung must stop violating the patents.

That will lead to lost of sales because their products will be inferior.

That alone will be worth it.

post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


The Willful Infringement they found was for the single patent ('172 auto-complete) Judge Koh had preemptively ruled as infringed before the trial started. I mentioned this somewhere already but she'll have a difficult time now drafting a ruling that agrees with the jury's finding. Since her initial determination the USPTO has announced it has significant doubts as to the patent's validity. That was also one of Samsung;s legal arguments I think. It may be infringed at this point, but IMHO a finding of willfulness probably not. While the jury was not permitted to be notified of the Patent Office action (Federal court rules) Judge Koh would have to consider it or I don't believe it will pass the almost certain Appeals Court smell test.

As far as the level of damages why would that particularly matter to whether each was infringing? Samsung asked for very little and received even less, Apple wanted a lot and received very little, about 6% of it so far I think. Using your reasoning the jury didn't think Samsung was much of an infringer either.

FWIW I personally disagree with the way this whole thing was done on multiple levels, beginning with broad software patents as a whole and proceeding from there. Buying patents for the sole purpose of suing another company, much less a market competitor, is sad and needs to have some limiting factors put in place (Samsung). Suing a marketplace competitor for damages for using some of your products patented features when you yourself don't use the claims you're suing over doesn't sound worthy of a major ding either (Apple). You would assume both, or at least Apple in this particular case, are relying on their strongest and easiest to win patent claims. If this is the best they've got, and Koh doesn't mail Apple a fig-leaf in the guise of an injunction, then I think both need to get on with things and hammer out the details on a cross-licensing agreement. These trials aren't fixing it.

EDIT: A side-note from this mornings TV news (no not Fox). They reported Samsung was found to infringe on two Apple's patents, but for no where near what Apple wanted. They also reported tho that Apple was found to infringe on a Samsung patent. Most listeners would have no knowledge of the details and only know they both infringe and both lost.

I can't imagine Apple would really consider this a win in the court of public opinion.

We get it: you think patents are wrong and thieves should roam free. Your comments are so typically you and so incredibly weaselly. You live in a world of lies and deceit; I don't know how you do it.

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post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post

We get it: you think patents are wrong and thieves should roam free. .

Nope, I don't think you get it at all.
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post #61 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post
 

Apple should look into buying a good legal team first. Samsung put on a textbook defense, even getting a judgement against Apple. 

 

Samsung's team wisely did what they could to completely confuse the jury. Apple's team probably should've objected to the many, many times they brought wholly unrelated testimony into play. Bad on the judge, bad on Apple's team... but good on Apple's team for actually winning on two counts. I hope they employ better tactics next time to combat Samsung's "back up the trash truck and dump" approach to testimony.

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post #62 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Nope, I don't think you get it at all.

Actually, I think he gets it just fine.

I'd even go so far as to say he's been 'particular observant'.
post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Actually, I think he gets it just fine.

I'd even go so far as to say he's been 'particular observant'.
I don't think I've ever opined that patents should be eliminated nor that theft is acceptable. You apparently don't get it either.

EDIT: This would be a great time to drop one of your funny one-liners. Everyone loves those.
Edited by Gatorguy - 5/3/14 at 4:17pm
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post #64 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I don't think I've ever opined that patents should be eliminated nor that theft is acceptable. You apparently don't get it either.

I was referring to his comments about you being incredibly weaselly.
post #65 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

I was referring to his comments about you being incredibly weaselly.

Ah, well carry on then, If you later decide to have a thoughtful discussion on any of the issues instead of holding a playground insult fest count me in. .1wink.gif
Edited by Gatorguy - 5/3/14 at 4:25pm
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post #66 of 91
S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Sarcasm sometimes goes right over folks heads, particularly "haters" as they're called sometimes (I'm no fan of "tags" but some here immediately relate to them). Not always the best choice to use it in emotionally-driven threads. WE know what you meant GTR. Casual members or new visitors maybe not so much.
p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Sarcasm sometimes goes right over folks heads, particularly "haters" as they're called sometimes (I'm no fan of "tags" but some here immediately relate to them). Not always the best choice to use it in emotionally-driven threads. WE know what you meant GTR. Casual members or new visitors maybe not so much.[/quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Sarcasm sometimes goes right over folks heads, particularly "haters" as they're called sometimes (I'm no fan of "tags" but some here immediately relate to them). Not always the best choice to use it in emotionally-driven threads. WE know what you meant GTR. Casual members or new visitors maybe not so much.
I didn't see a /s or -Sarcasm and though he was being serious.
post #67 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeiP5 View Post

S
p
I didn't see a /s or -Sarcasm and though he was being serious.

I thought your defence of Apple was admirable!

1wink.gif
Edited by GTR - 5/4/14 at 1:36am
post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Ah, well carry on then, If you later decide to have a thoughtful discussion on any of the issues instead of holding a playground insult fest count me in. .1wink.gif

You ever considered spending more time with the wife and kids rather than living on the forum?
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

You ever considered spending more time with the wife and kids rather than living on the forum?
See, that's much better. Everyone including me appreciates a touch of humor. Things sometimes get a little too serious and conversations become too personal when emotions start taking control.
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post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

I wasn't joking.

For a family man, you spend an awfully large amount of time of the internet trying to prove a point (not to mention all the 'research' you do).

Not healthy.

My mistake then (yup I make some). Figured you must have been joking. I tend to doubt you concern yourself with anyone's health here on the forum.
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post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

and I KNOW you just won 3 idiot awards!
  1. quoting the same post twice (copying just like Samsung)
  2. unnecessarily quoting the entire post (twice) (again, copying just like Samsung)
  3. not able to read sarcasm

and if you hadn't noticed, Lotte World Amusement Park in Seoul (S Korea) (the pictures you kindly quoted twice) became how they are today because of Disneyland. Do ya' see the  "innovation"?
I was wrong and did't realize that it was a Disney land copy. The idiot award thing I didn't copy the same post twice you must have seen an edit. I would understood if I saw a /s or sarcasum. Sorry to you and GTR. I've had sales people at my local carrier lwhen I top up my data similar thoughts to that and not sarcastic sorry I took my rage out on GTR I've got a lot against my carrier right now and took it out on him without realizing that he was being sarcastic. 1smile.gif
post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

My mistake then (yup I make some). Figured you must have been joking. I tend to doubt you concern yourself with anyone's health here on the forum.

 

 

Just remember, the higher that post count of yours goes, that's more opportunities you've missed to spend time on the IMPORTANT things in life.

post #73 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeiP5 View Post

I was wrong and did't realize that it was a Disney land copy. The idiot award thing I didn't copy the same post twice you must have seen an edit. I would understood if I saw a /s or sarcasum. Sorry to you and GTR. I've had sales people at my local carrier lwhen I top up my data similar thoughts to that and not sarcastic sorry I took my rage out on GTR I've got a lot against my carrier right now and took it out on him without realizing that he was being sarcastic. 1smile.gif

 

You gave me a nice bloody nose.

 

;)

 

Don't lose that passion!

post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Now that the results of the second patent trial in California are in I, for one, am glad to see (judging from the pitiful amount that Apple has been awarded) that the judge and jurors did not allow themselves to be hoodwinked by that uninnovative company that brought the GUI, the mouse, the modern personal computer (along with colour and style), the iPod, the iTunes Store, Apple Retail Stores, the online App Store, the iPhone, the MacBook Air, the iPad, the Mac Pro, and the world's most insecure and unreliable operating system, to the masses.

After finally having proven, not only their innocence, but that Korea, in general, is able to draw from a well of innovation that is incredibly deep, I can only assume that both Samsung Executive Management and their legal team will be taking some sorely deserved time off at the Lotte World Amusement Park in Seoul.


Good on you guys!

Keep up the hard work!











Sorry for my dreadfully hating comment towards you and that I hadn't realized that you where being sarcastic with the copied theme park. 1smile.gif Nice touch on the theme park. Really sorry about the miss understanding as I'm mad at my carrier, there ways and there dreadfully sales people. Really sorry and I get the award now 1smile.gif Now I realize what a well thought out comment you had! Really sorry again 1frown.gif
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post



Just remember, the higher that post count of yours goes, that's more opportunities you've missed to spend time on the IMPORTANT things in life.

Thanks for the advice GTR. Seriously. My son and I had fishing plans interrupted by weather this morning. Hopefully our schedules and the weather works out for us tomorrow. Perhaps you can look forward to a stress-free day too.
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post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Apple's lawyers, on the whole, come through as a rather unimpressive bunch. (I am including the saps who argued in front of Cote as well).

They seem to lack the chutzpah of those representing Samsung.

Its alot easy to defend guilt then prove guilt.
post #77 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

Samsung's team wisely did what they could to completely confuse the jury. Apple's team probably should've objected to the many, many times they brought wholly unrelated testimony into play. Bad on the judge, bad on Apple's team... but good on Apple's team for actually winning on two counts. I hope they employ better tactics next time to combat Samsung's "back up the trash truck and dump" approach to testimony.

Samsung had the advantage of bringing in Google and the claim that Android truly copied Apple. You're right the main focus was to confuse the jury which is why most cases get settled and never go to the jury. I have always wondered how this would have played out if both companies were based in the US. Not sure if it would have made a difference or not. 

 

I always believe a jury does the best they can, the fear is the evidence is over their heads. I still believe the mindset is stealing IP is a victimless crime. It's interesting I have seen people post about patents and the US Constitution, really they date back before the Constitution many of the states used the patent system. Hard to believe laws have been around that long and we still can't get it right when it comes to enforcement. 

post #78 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post


Its alot easy to defend guilt then prove guilt.

The burden of prove is always on the plaintiff. If someone can get a criminal conviction it makes it easier to win in civil court. The defendant has no burden in any trial. In a case like this where both companies can spend large amounts of money it gave Samsung a clear advantage. Also for Samsung they create doubt with Google and Android, having an open system works to their advantage. 

 

It was always going to be difficult for Apple to get a home run victory in this case. 

post #79 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post
 

Samsung had the advantage of bringing in Google and the claim that Android truly copied Apple. You're right the main focus was to confuse the jury which is why most cases get settled and never go to the jury. I have always wondered how this would have played out if both companies were based in the US. Not sure if it would have made a difference or not. 

 

I always believe a jury does the best they can, the fear is the evidence is over their heads. I still believe the mindset is stealing IP is a victimless crime. It's interesting I have seen people post about patents and the US Constitution, really they date back before the Constitution many of the states used the patent system. Hard to believe laws have been around that long and we still can't get it right when it comes to enforcement. 

 

An ignorant public is the greatest danger to the Constitution.

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post #80 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Its alot easy to defend guilt then prove guilt.

Most lawyers with half a brain (and skill) know whether they're the plaintiff or the defendant when they're taking on a case, no? It's not like it's a surprise?

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