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Apple donates $500K to San Francisco anti-poverty initiative - Page 2

post #41 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

It's cheaper just to shoot them. Why waste the gas? /s

 

Honestly, the reason the homeless are in the cities is because there are more charitable people there who will give them a dollar and there are steam pipes they can sleep near to stay warm. If they were in the midwest somewhere they would die of starvation or freeze to death, but that's what you really want isn't it?

 

I might hold many various political opinions, but killing poor people is not of them.:lol: 

 

I would also like to add that anybody giving a "poor person" a dollar or giving them food is not really helping at all, and those acts are illegal in many places, including where I live. I would never give a dime to any homeless person or panhandler on the subway, because it only makes the situation worse. Those people who give a dollar think that they are doing good, but it's the exact opposite. They should be ashamed of themselves, and they should be fined for breaking the law.

post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Are hybrid vehicles the answer? 1smile.gif

But seriously, eliminating the minimum wage would go further toward eliminating poverty than well-meaning but misguided philanthropy programs. By arbitrarily capping the lower end of wages, those with the lowest marketable skills are restricted from participating in the job market.

An interesting hypothesis. Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked? Call me a pessimist where human nature is concerned if you will, but I suspect many companies would simply pay less. Believe me I am not some far left liberal, far from it, I ran several companies and had many employees. I've seen both sides. I had a sales manager that had a company car, damn good basic and a profit sharing scheme plus bonuses ... and free gas for his company car. We discovered he was syphoning off his company car's gas to fill his wife's car and his boat every weekend, some weekends filling up his company car twice to accomplish this.
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post #43 of 91
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

An interesting hypothesis. Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked? Call me a pessimist where human nature is concerned if you will, but I suspect many companies would simply pay less. Believe me I am not some far left liberal, far from it, I ran several companies and had many employees. I've seen both sides. I had a sales manager that had a company car, damn good basic and a profit sharing scheme plus bonuses ... and free gas for his company car. We discovered he was syphoning off his company car's gas to fill his wife's car and his boat every weekend, some weekends filling up his company car twice to accomplish this.

The story of the salesman is a hilarious example of well-intentioned actions having unintended results (for the company) and a further example that self-interest is the great truth of humanity. Giving away anything for "free" is a bad idea because people are experts at gaming systems. Just get out of their way and let them use their ingenuity to solve problems. Throwing money at a problem is always wasteful and inefficient.

With regard to your specific question {"Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked?")... this article addresses multiple aspects of the harm caused by the Minimum Wage:

http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2013/02/even-more-thoughts-on-the-minimum-wage.html

In fact, as wages increase automation becomes more affordable and will be implemented quicker. In the very near future, even high-skill professions will be subject to forms of automation and replacement with artificial intelligence and advanced, inexpensive robotics.
Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/5/14 at 12:45pm

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post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 
further example that self-interest is the great truth of humanity. Giving away anything for "free" is a bad idea because people are experts at gaming the system. Just get out of their way and let them use their ingenuity to solve problems. 

I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.

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post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.

 

Self-interest, whether one chooses to recognize and acknowledge it as a fact is one of the great human truths. This isn't the "law of the jungle" at work here. Self-interest doesn't have to mean one bludgeons an enemy to defeat him, it can also mean one uses political connections to pass laws that extract taxes from large groups of people to "serve the public good" (especially if that "public good" is actually a special interest).

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post #46 of 91

The sheer simplicity with which people think about and paint the world in this thread is astounding.  I'll throw out one complication for those people to ponder on:

 

Many people living in poverty have a mental illness or similar condition which makes it difficult for them to get and/or hold a job.  Shipping them away somewhere else won't change that, and it'll likely make it more difficult for them to get the help they need.  Large cities typically have better health care facilities available.  And while businesses can provide jobs for people, they generally aren't equipped to provide the support such people would need.

 

Anyways, good on Apple for their support for organizations trying to better the community.

 
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post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good. Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run. That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges. Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems. Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.

I agree and in fact many scientists, as I am sure you know, feel it was precisely what you say that lead to the advance of our ancestors and separated them from others from whence they all evolved. Opposable thumbs helped too 1wink.gif.
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post #48 of 91
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Originally Posted by auxio View Post

The sheer simplicity with which people think about and paint the world in this thread is astounding.  I'll throw out one complication for those people to ponder on:

Many people living in poverty have a mental illness or similar condition which makes it difficult for them to get and/or hold a job.  Shipping them away somewhere else won't change that, and it'll likely make it more difficult for them to get the help they need.  Large cities typically have better health care facilities available.  And while businesses can provide jobs for people, they generally aren't equipped to provide the support such people would need.

Anyways, good on Apple for their support for organizations trying to better the community.

I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family. Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business. Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?
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post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I agree and in fact many scientists, as I am sure you know, feel it was precisely what you say that lead to the advance of our ancestors and separated them from others from whence they all evolved. Opposable thumbs helped too 1wink.gif.

 

No arguments here have negated the fact that self-interest is being served. "Enlightened self-interest" also applies.

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post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family. Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business. Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?

 

(Text in bold is mine)

 

This is not the basis for a valid argument. Steve Jobs dressed sloppily and smelled like shit when he used to work at Atari. Many employees complained about his smell (which was caused by his odd dietary choices), but he was a talented worker.

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post #51 of 91

I'm born/raised in San Francisco.  I've seen it all in every decade starting in the 70's.  As of this year's figures, San Francisco spends about $165Million on homeless programs.  Let's sit on that for a moment.  That means in one decade alone, my tax money has contributed to over a billion dollars in one decade.

And what do we have to show for all that money spent?  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.  What we ended up getting is cities from everywhere in the U.S. shipping their problems with a free bus ticket to SF because my moronic board of supervisors (that I did not vote for) happily accepts everyone on my dime.  We have streets and sidewalks that are dangerous to walk on, in disrepair, and homeless folks that refuse to get assistance and defacate/urinate anywhere they please without fear or reprisal because some hippy-hugger feels it would be "mean" to treat their misfortune as a crime.

Apple is only doing this to score happy points with the progressive (i.e. "Whiny") vermin minority that seem to carry more weight than the majority tax-paying citizens of San Francisco.

post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

(Text in bold is mine)

This is not the basis for a valid argument. Steve Jobs dressed sloppily and smelled like shit when he used to work at Atari. Many employees complained about his smell (which was caused by his odd dietary choices), but he was a talented worker.

Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke. It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.
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post #53 of 91
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Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

I'm born/raised in San Francisco.  I've seen it all in every decade starting in the 70's.  As of this year's figures, San Francisco spends about $165Million on homeless programs.  Let's sit on that for a moment.  That means in one decade alone, my tax money has contributed to over a billion dollars in one decade.


And what do we have to show for all that money spent?  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.  What we ended up getting is cities from everywhere in the U.S. shipping their problems with a free bus ticket to SF because my moronic board of supervisors (that I did not vote for) happily accepts everyone on my dime.  We have streets and sidewalks that are dangerous to walk on, in disrepair, and homeless folks that refuse to get assistance and defacate/urinate anywhere they please without fear or reprisal because some hippy-hugger feels it would be "mean" to treat their misfortune as a crime.


Apple is only doing this to score happy points with the progressive (i.e. "Whiny") vermin minority that seem to carry more weight than the majority tax-paying citizens of San Francisco.

That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.
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post #54 of 91
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke. It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.

 

I don't think IQ plays into this unless one is talking about the severely mentally handicapped. In fact, it's insulting to imply "half the population" is incapable of getting and keeping a job unless businesses are forced to hire them or give them free money.

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post #55 of 91
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.

 

Individual charity is fine.

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post #56 of 91
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Individual charity is fine.

Agreed but it doesn't help in a major situation, you need organization, resources etc an individual doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, I hate those that work the system as much as any one who pays taxes. But many don't and need help. I really don't mind if it is a private organization or not it's just that there needs to be an organized method to help.
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post #57 of 91
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Agreed but it doesn't help in a major situation, you need organization, resources etc an individual doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, I hate those that work the system as much as any one who pays taxes. But many don't and need help. I really don't mind if it is a private organization or not it's just that there needs to be an organized method to help.

 

Define a "major situation." Widespread unemployment? The quick answer is to eliminate both the minimum wage and the income tax. The more detailed answer is "FairTax".

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post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I don't think IQ plays into this unless one is talking about the severely mentally handicapped. In fact, it's insulting to imply "half the population" is incapable of getting and keeping a job unless businesses are forced to hire them or give them free money.

I didn't insult anyone, it is a mathematical fact that the IQ spread is centered at 100. It is a bell curve so most are in and around there but for every person there is an equal and opposite one. The mirror image mentally of all college graduates or post graduates is still al lot of people. Having an IQ between 120 and 140 is probably common amongst those on this blog, but that means as many have an IQ of 60-80. Not mentally retarded but relatively challenged. They are not going to start their own business or put together a cash flow forecast for a bank to get a loan on one. Nor am I suggesting they get hand outs. I am simply pointing out the mantra that anyone can start a business and succeed if they work hard in the USA is BS if they are not too bright.
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post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Define a "major situation." Widespread unemployment? The quick answer is to eliminate both the minimum wage and the income tax.


re major situation: I meant anywhere the problem is far greater than where one or even a few people's charity could help. As I say I am not suggesting this all be government run but I can't see why private enterprise would want to help after an earthquake, a polio outbreak or wide spread starvation caused by drought (just to name a few) unless they could make a profit.

Re min wage: I asked before as I don't know, can you cite a first world country with no mimim wage and show the relative improvements in wages and standards that country has and you say would come if we did likewise? I haven't found such data yet but there may be some I am not disagreeing, I'd just like some evidence. If it is there, fine.

Sorry, off topic ... HOLY COW AAPL PASSED 600
Edited by digitalclips - 5/5/14 at 1:37pm
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post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Re min wage: I asked before as I don't know, can you cite a first world country with no mimim wage and show the relative improvements in wages and standards that country has and you say would come if we did likewise? I haven't found such data yet but there may be some I am not disagreeing, I'd just like some evidence. If it is there, fine.

 

All countries currently have some kind of minimum wage laws (except Singapore?...someone correct me if I'm wrong). There is plenty of evidence which groups are harmed by minimum wage requirements.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesdorn/2013/05/07/the-minimum-wage-delusion-and-the-death-of-common-sense/

 

...and there is also recent historical fact.

 

The minimum wage has been a part of American life for so long now that very few citizens have any memory of a time when it did not exist. But the United States was built by workers who were guaranteed no minimum wage -- in a country that, until the 1938 law, let the marketplace determine how much anyone was paid.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/24/opinion/greene-minimum-wage/


Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/5/14 at 1:56pm

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post #61 of 91
It is good to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless.
"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
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post #62 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

All countries currently have some kind of minimum wage laws. There is plenty of evidence which groups are harmed by minimum wage requirements.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesdorn/2013/05/07/the-minimum-wage-delusion-and-the-death-of-common-sense/

...and there is historical fact.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/24/opinion/greene-minimum-wage/

LOL, got any serious studies, you know done by non partisan folks. 1biggrin.gif

Hey let's call it a day. I'm off to celebrate 600 before it dips and I lose my excuse to have a G&T this early!
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post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


With regard to your specific question {"Are there first world countries you know of that have tried this and it worked?")... this article addresses multiple aspects of the harm caused by the Minimum Wage:

http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2013/02/even-more-thoughts-on-the-minimum-wage.html

In fact, as wages increase automation becomes more affordable and will be implemented quicker. In the very near future, even high-skill professions will be subject to forms of automation and replacement with artificial intelligence and advanced, inexpensive robotics.

 

The author there draws a parallel between unpaid internships and minimum wage, yet he doesn't even mention the stipulations under which unpaid internships are legal. You could at least refer to articles written by objective authors.

post #64 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Rising tide floats all boats. SF is Apple's home town. If the donation helps improve the quality of life in SF then that helps improve Apple's public image which is good for business.
This in a nut shell is the problem "if" it improves things all is good. The vast majority of charitable giving does not do all that much good.
Quote:
Nobody would complain if Apple donated to a liberal arts organization or some academic cause.
Because education is one of the most important things that a company like Apple can be involved in. If Apple as a company wants to improve the Bay Area living conditions, education should be high on the list.
Quote:
Some people just don't want to see them spend any money on poor people.
No, it is more a question of wasting money on people that you will never get results from.
Quote:

If you have been to SF you know there are a lot of homeless on the streets. If there were fewer, the city would be better in my opinion.

I have to agree with you, but you would be a fool to believe that this will impact that situation one bit. Unless the laws are changed to allow incarceration of the mentally ill not much can be accomplished with the homeless.
post #65 of 91
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Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

This is why it would never happen. It would be nice if Apple could just buy themselves out with the cash they have. Again, I know this can't happen. Shareholders are just a pain in the ass thats all.
If it wasn't for the investment community Apple wouldn't even exist.
post #66 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

A link specifically chosen for Marvin to read:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_undercover_economist/2006/10/charity_is_selfish.single.html

It's always the finance people that are like this and the same people don't grasp some of Apple's more thoughtful ad campaigns. This is the kind of attitude that works well in the stock market: take out the morality and trade in a way to maximize profit. Interesting how he likened buying stock in already successful companies to charity as though the company needs the investor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich 
self-interest is the great truth of humanity

This is a core point in discussions like these and it starts with an observation. People are born with an instinct to survive and a need to find resources to sustain life. That's a biological trait that we can't get away from. Where people differ is in promoting or discouraging self-interest. People's bodies naturally decay and get dirty but we promote the opposite. People who decide to steal things are acting in their own self-interest but we don't promote that either.

We try to promote what has a positive outcome. There are occasions where you might say acting in a selfless manner is a bad idea. Take this story:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/good-samaritan-stabbed-death-protecting-young-mother-toddler-mugger-article-1.1773850

That guy intervened to help someone out and ended up being killed. If he hadn't bothered intervening, he would most likely still be alive. Some would read that story and think what he did was heroic, some might say it was a bad idea because he's dead now.

I don't consider that human life has an overarching purpose any more than the life of a fruit fly, the only motive would therefore be to survive and enjoy it. Behaving in a self-interested way helps achieve this. Few people would prefer that others have a better job, a more attractive partner, more possessions than they do but that's not what altruism is. It's simply caring that other people have a minimum quality of life that aligns with your own expectations. Other people have done this for you. People have died to protect the freedoms and rights that you have now.

It becomes an issue of semantics at times because promoting what's good for the self can also be good for a group. I think what's important is that people should consider whether their actions are only good for themselves at the expense or disregard of others under the knowledge that people do the same for them. If you were broke, wounded and dying in a gutter somewhere, your promotion of self-interest should encourage everyone to leave you alone to die in pain because they don't benefit from helping you. Yet you would be eager for someone to help you and grateful if someone did. That's why someone once said "the true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good".

People might immediately disagree with the statement as the first thought is to place yourself in a position of being judged and some would rather be measured in different ways but if you read the statement with you as the one who can do no good for the subject then you can see the truth in it. There's a truth to the success of both selfishness and altruism, which is why we can't stick with just one of them and people will argue until the end of time that we should stick with one or the other. People need an incentive to contribute because inherent selfishness leads to laziness and it weighs down on people who do contribute but while it's effective at times, I don't think that suffering needs to be that incentive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio 
Many people living in poverty have a mental illness or similar condition which makes it difficult for them to get and/or hold a job.

I would say it stretches further than that, Elon Musk couldn't get a job because he lacked the confidence. He then started his own company with his brother and eventually got the opportunity of lots of growth funding:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Zip2+Obtains+$12.1+Million+In+Private+Financing+From+Knight-Ridder...-a019066392

People can have good ideas but no route to market, they can lack confidence and not get hired. Sometimes the odds just don't come out in your favor:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267953/Job-seeker-Vicky-Harrison-commits-suicide-rejected-200-jobs.html

When you have so many people and so few opportunities, it becomes more likely that rejections happen:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/19/getting-a-job-at-walmart-is-harder-than-getting-into-harvard.html

"“the stores will hire a combined 600 associates after combing through the more than 23,000 applications it received from potential employees.” That’s stunning. Walmart received 38 applications for every opening, making the odds of an applicant getting a job at Walmart far greater than getting into Harvard. And all this competition for positions that we know do not pay all that well."
post #67 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

You, sir (and I use that term with not a small touch of irony), are a complete idiot.
Just what did he say wrong. Have you had contact with any of these people? The fact is there is nothing you can do to improve the lives of many of these people. Mental illness is a tough problem to deal with and currently the only way to achieve forced treatment is for that individual to demonstrate a danger to society.
Quote:
As I've said in other threads like this, at least it allows me to add to my ignore list and stop having to listen to sleaze.

Fine - put your head in the sand and deny the truth. Part of that truth is that a great deal of charitable giving goes to waste.
post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Wrong. The shareholders only own shares. The only time the shareholder has any ownership in the company is if the company goes bankrupt and liquidates all assets. At that time any funds remaining, after all debts are satisfied, would be distributed to the shareholders, which in most cases will be zero.

You really don't know what you are talking about.
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

 

The author there draws a parallel between unpaid internships and minimum wage, yet he doesn't even mention the stipulations under which unpaid internships are legal. You could at least refer to articles written by objective authors.

 

Any sources cited are bound to be criticized as partisan or biased, so feel free to find your own.


Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/5/14 at 2:13pm

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post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Because education is one of the most important things that a company like Apple can be involved in. If Apple as a company wants to improve the Bay Area living conditions, education should be high on the list.

 

I would actually agree with you there. If kids growing up in the Bay area want to continue to live there, that offers them an increased chance of being able to do so comfortably. By comfortably I mean that their level of income offers enough resilience that they are not living paycheck to paycheck after covering basic expenses (food, shelter, phone, etc. and yes including phone you have to be reachable to hold down a job right?).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by macxpress View Post
 

 

This is why it would never happen. It would be nice if Apple could just buy themselves out with the cash they have. Again, I know this can't happen. Shareholders are just a pain in the ass thats all.


Not one person has been able to accurately state how such a thing would work. I've tried to correct the notion before that buying back shares does not mean Apple then owns a portion of itself. Would you care to explain how you see this happening?

post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Not mentally retarded but relatively challenged. They are not going to start their own business or put together a cash flow forecast for a bank to get a loan on one. Nor am I suggesting they get hand outs. I am simply pointing out the mantra that anyone can start a business and succeed if they work hard in the USA is BS if they are not too bright.

 

And not just IQ (which is a controversial measure of intelligence anyways) -- factor in people with disorders like schizophrenia, bi-polar, autism, dementia, etc.

 
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post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

Did you even look at what this group does?
Does it really matter.
Quote:
 Or did you just not even bother and tell yourself what you always tell yourself, "Giving 'handouts' to the poor is bad -- they'll spend it on drugs and they won't work and the'll be lazy," as usual?
Never even remotely said anything like that, I just pointed out that most charitable giving ends up wasted.

However it has been demonstrated clearly that giving stuff, money or whatever, to the poor keeps them poor.
Quote:

I don't give a damn about his "quotes."  

And your argument makes absolutely no sense.  Taylor Swift* has a LOT (like orders of magnitude LOT) more money than I do (or than the economic group into which I would fit do).  That doesn't make me poor -- nor does it make me "poor."
Being poor is a state of mind. Charity does not enhance the state of mind of the poor.
Quote:
If we start counting people as poor -- or as "poor" -- whenever they are part of an economic strata which is below some other group(s) in net worth, then we're going to have to start to counting a lot of multimillionaires as poor -- or as "poor."


* -- Swift's net worth is about $200M, to put what I was saying into perspective.
post #73 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


LOL, got any serious studies, you know done by non partisan folks. 1biggrin.gif

Hey let's call it a day. I'm off to celebrate 600 before it dips and I lose my excuse to have a G&T this early!

 

Two things:  (1) I know of no sources that lack a personal perspective, so I'd argue there are no such sources. (2) Cheers!

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post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

No. You try to pay attention. I stated specifically with regard to homeless street people and he replied with there will always be poor people. If we were not discussing the same type of people why would he even quote me? Homeless street people have no home, on Internet, no cell phone, no computer as you try to infer that people with these goods and possessions still allow them to be considered "poor people". Sure there are varying degrees of poverty but in this case he and I were not discussing moderately disadvantaged people.  

Your definition is fine but please do explain to us how charity will help these people. Certainly handing out freebies won't fix the problem.
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

Any sources cited are bound to be criticized as partisan or biased, so feel free to find your own.

 

I don't care if they're partisan. The author used blatant fallacies to support his conclusions. I don't think he's an idiot. I just think he's an extremely disingenuous author who is fully aware of his actions.

post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Your definition is fine but please do explain to us how charity will help these people. Certainly handing out freebies won't fix the problem.

 

Did you even read the Tipping Point site?  Or do you simply believe that any money used to fight poverty is a freebie?

 
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post #77 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post
 

 

Did you even read the Tipping Point site?  Or do you simply believe that any money used to fight poverty is a freebie?

 

That site is a dead clear illustration to me that Californian social spending and anti-business legislation is a complete failure. The costs of doing business under misguided attempts to help "the poor" has created more of them! I also noticed that 254 businesses left California in 2011 (no idea how many this year or the previous year).

 

Also interesting to note that Americans are now renouncing their citizenship in record numbers:  http://taxfoundation.org/blog/1001-americans-renounced-us-citizenship-first-quarter-year


Edited by SpamSandwich - 5/5/14 at 3:17pm

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post #78 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's always the finance people that are like this and the same people don't grasp some of Apple's more thoughtful ad campaigns. This is the kind of attitude that works well in the stock market: take out the morality and trade in a way to maximize profit. Interesting how he likened buying stock in already successful companies to charity as though the company needs the investor.
This is a core point in discussions like these and it starts with an observation. People are born with an instinct to survive and a need to find resources to sustain life. That's a biological trait that we can't get away from. Where people differ is in promoting or discouraging self-interest. People's bodies naturally decay and get dirty but we promote the opposite. People who decide to steal things are acting in their own self-interest but we don't promote that either.

We try to promote what has a positive outcome. There are occasions where you might say acting in a selfless manner is a bad idea. Take this story:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/good-samaritan-stabbed-death-protecting-young-mother-toddler-mugger-article-1.1773850

That guy intervened to help someone out and ended up being killed. If he hadn't bothered intervening, he would most likely still be alive. Some would read that story and think what he did was heroic, some might say it was a bad idea because he's dead now.

I don't consider that human life has an overarching purpose any more than the life of a fruit fly, the only motive would therefore be to survive and enjoy it. Behaving in a self-interested way helps achieve this. Few people would prefer that others have a better job, a more attractive partner, more possessions than they do but that's not what altruism is. It's simply caring that other people have a minimum quality of life that aligns with your own expectations. Other people have done this for you. People have died to protect the freedoms and rights that you have now.

It becomes an issue of semantics at times because promoting what's good for the self can also be good for a group. I think what's important is that people should consider whether their actions are only good for themselves at the expense or disregard of others under the knowledge that people do the same for them. If you were broke, wounded and dying in a gutter somewhere, your promotion of self-interest should encourage everyone to leave you alone to die in pain because they don't benefit from helping you. Yet you would be eager for someone to help you and grateful if someone did. That's why someone once said "the true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good".

People might immediately disagree with the statement as the first thought is to place yourself in a position of being judged and some would rather be measured in different ways but if you read the statement with you as the one who can do no good for the subject then you can see the truth in it. There's a truth to the success of both selfishness and altruism, which is why we can't stick with just one of them and people will argue until the end of time that we should stick with one or the other. People need an incentive to contribute because inherent selfishness leads to laziness and it weighs down on people who do contribute but while it's effective at times, I don't think that suffering needs to be that incentive.
I would say it stretches further than that, Elon Musk couldn't get a job because he lacked the confidence. He then started his own company with his brother and eventually got the opportunity of lots of growth funding:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Zip2+Obtains+$12.1+Million+In+Private+Financing+From+Knight-Ridder...-a019066392

People can have good ideas but no route to market, they can lack confidence and not get hired. Sometimes the odds just don't come out in your favor:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267953/Job-seeker-Vicky-Harrison-commits-suicide-rejected-200-jobs.html

When you have so many people and so few opportunities, it becomes more likely that rejections happen:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/19/getting-a-job-at-walmart-is-harder-than-getting-into-harvard.html

"“the stores will hire a combined 600 associates after combing through the more than 23,000 applications it received from potential employees.” That’s stunning. Walmart received 38 applications for every opening, making the odds of an applicant getting a job at Walmart far greater than getting into Harvard. And all this competition for positions that we know do not pay all that well."

Another excellent post.
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post #79 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

 

I don't care if they're partisan. The author used blatant fallacies to support his conclusions. I don't think he's an idiot. I just think he's an extremely disingenuous author who is fully aware of his actions.

 

Please list the "fallacies" and provide factual "non-partisan" information to rebut the article (BTW, the New York Times is not non-partisan).

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post #80 of 91
I'm glad somebody from the SF area posted and recognizes the problems policy creates in the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

I'm born/raised in San Francisco.  I've seen it all in every decade starting in the 70's.  As of this year's figures, San Francisco spends about $165Million on homeless programs.  Let's sit on that for a moment.  That means in one decade alone, my tax money has contributed to over a billion dollars in one decade.
It has been demonstrated again and again that liberal attitudes to the homeless results in more homeless people. This is why many communities are coming down hard on groups that support the homeless.
Quote:

And what do we have to show for all that money spent?  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.
You got something, more homeless that you know what to do with. High taxes that drain money from the economy in non productive ways. Further you have policy that says there is nothing you can do about the mentally ill unless they become a danger to the community. Sadly that danger is only acknowledged after the fact.
Quote:
 What we ended up getting is cities from everywhere in the U.S. shipping their problems with a free bus ticket to SF because my moronic board of supervisors (that I did not vote for) happily accepts everyone on my dime.  We have streets and sidewalks that are dangerous to walk on, in disrepair, and homeless folks that refuse to get assistance and defacate/urinate anywhere they please without fear or reprisal because some hippy-hugger feels it would be "mean" to treat their misfortune as a crime.
As long as there are handouts to be had the homeless situation will only get worst.
Quote:

Apple is only doing this to score happy points with the progressive (i.e. "Whiny") vermin minority that seem to carry more weight than the majority tax-paying citizens of San Francisco.

Revolution is the answer. In California you need Constitutional amendments that will allow for heavy regulation of the homeless industry in the state. Make no mistake it is an industry. Further there has to be rational approaches to allowing the mentally ill on the streets.

On a side note, I'm located on the east coast but over the years have had reasons to be in the San Francisco, San Jose and Santa Barbara areas and frankly I was shocked at what was tolerated in some of those communities. There is simply no excuse for such a high tolerance for the homeless and the associated crime.
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