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Apple donates $500K to San Francisco anti-poverty initiative - Page 3

post #81 of 91
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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good.
Nobody here is denying that a greater good exists. That isn't the problem. They problem is well meaning charity making the situation worst for the homeless and frankly the greater good. Sometimes you need to put a foot down and say enough is enough!
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Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run.
Baloney! Much of early technology was directed at filling ones stomach.
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That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges.
So when are you going to start thinking logically. The fact of the matter is that the areas of this country with the most liberal approaches to the homeless have the most serious homeless issues.
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Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems.
Again more baloney. Heavy organization and structure is inflexible and inefficient and seldom results in innovation in any activity.
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Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.

This is funny considering this is an Apple forum. You do realize that Apple has reinvented the wheel many times and often did so against the normal flow of industry. Progress is often the direct result of a single person saying hey I got something different to solve this problem.
post #82 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Self-interest, whether one chooses to recognize and acknowledge it as a fact is one of the great human truths. This isn't the "law of the jungle" at work here. Self-interest doesn't have to mean one bludgeons an enemy to defeat him, it can also mean one uses political connections to pass laws that extract taxes from large groups of people to "serve the public good" (especially if that "public good" is actually a special interest).

The unfortunate reality here is that too many so called public good works are really activities designed to promote a special interest. Sadly a good part of the USA is highly gullible in this regard.
post #83 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I keep thinking how much fun it would be if all those that have that way of thinking could wake up one day, broke, sick and no relatives or family.
That has happened to many people. Normally that situation is over come in short order. This isn't the problem free for all charity creates though. The problem is rather that such liberal handouts enables a community of people that have no desire to ever work.
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Let them walk to the employment line in dirty clothes unshaven and demand they get an interview for a good paying job, or perhaps visit a bank for a loan to start a business.
Have you ever tried to get a loan to start a business?
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Or perhaps find they can no longer think coherently at all yet to their horror feel cold and hungry. Then let them meet their former self that doesn't recognize them and ask for the change for a hot coffee only to be told they are lazy good for nothings that deserve to die ... wait a minute isn't this already a book or a film?

It isn't a question of should they die or not, but rather is it really good for society to enable the chronic homeless? If you look at the situation with an open mind it is pretty clear that going overboard does more harm than good. Clearly the problem in San Fransisco and other California communities is man made, the communities have nobody but themselves to blame.
post #84 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Oh come on lol, you nit picked one small part and twisted to suit your needs there. I think the point was simply, walk a mile in a persons shoes who is mentally below par, or sick and or broke.
This is something that may be of value for many to mentally contemplate. However what I'm trying to argue is that the practices on the west coast, especially California makes things worst for the community, and the individual that has these sorts of problems.

Frankly the mentally ill should be confined for treatment, that would be the first rational step to take. Enabling them to live on the street is just bad all around. People talk compassion in this thread but honestly is it really compassionate to allow the mentally ill to wander the streets, suffering from hunger and other issues. What about the community itself that has to suffer through their criminal activities and other lesser offenses.

In any event I don't think a lot of people grasp how hopeless it is to try to help somebody that is mentally ill without intensive supervision.
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It might not be easy to be a smelly Steve Jobs for most. Remember, exactly half the population have an IQ less than the median 100 ... think about it.

Actually I don't buy that either. Far more than half the population I run into is far below that intelligence level. Of course that probably depends upon how you measure the IQ and how you define intelligence but it is amazing just how many stupid people there are out and about.

The problem here is that no amount of training will make them intelligent and frankly some of them can't even handle manual labor. Effectively you can't accomplish much of anything by throwing money at such people. Thus the comments to the effect that money is often wasted by such charities.
post #85 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

That is a very true issue, one place helps and they word goes out and voila mass migration there. I agree that is an issue seen now in Europe as they are flooded with poor east Europeans and Asians. But is the solution no one helps or if everyone did there would be no such migration? I truly don't know the answer.

That is because there is no perfect solution. However what one can have is expectations. For example stop food handouts to people not willing to work for it. That simple expectation would greatly reduce the freeloader community. Here is the thing, if you have someone in need, that has lost a job for example, it is highly doubtful that they would object to putting in a little effort for a couple of hours a day for some grub. Those that object immediately identify themselves as not worthy of the communities consideration.

The primary thing that I see as a problem is that the unrestricted support of the homeless in California has resulted in an environment that grows the problem rather than shrinks it. There is no perfect path to correct the problem but the current practice, especially in San Francisco, is not sustainable.
post #86 of 91

 

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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

Any sources cited are bound to be criticized as partisan or biased, so feel free to find your own.

 

 

The author doesn't make a good point throughout his entire article. It's just one long drivel piece. Beyond that I don't care if the source is inherently biased. I only care about their reasoning used on that piece. Here's one of the most blatantly false points in the thing.

 

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You actually do see young people in various professional businesses and halls of government. They’re called interns. So we’ve got lots of young people finding employers willing to take them on at $0/hour, and yet apparently there is this “indeterminate bargaining zone” where employers’ quantity of labor demanded is the same between 1 cent and $7.25 (or $9). Does this range also count as a “modest increase”? Or does even Krugman admit that getting rid of the minimum wage altogether would help reduce the 25%+ teen unemployment rate, while increasing it from $7.25 to $9 would be negligible in the other direction?

There are specific stipulations that he conveniently ignored. For sources I'll use Forbes and the department of labor. I was actually looking for department of labor or IRS guidelines, as both publish guidelines on the matter. One of the important premises of his article was that minimum wage creates a gap in value to the employer. He neglects to mention that regulations do not allow for an unpaid intern to displace a paid employee. To legally replace something with intern labor means you're back to at least minimum wage. The reason I find your reasoning distasteful is that I'm almost positive you're already aware of these things without my linking them. The entire concept of a minimum wage relies on it retaining some meaningful value throughout periods of inflation. When that fails, the proposed corrections become more severe and it isn't as easily shoehorned in with other cost changes. 

 

Forbes legal requirements for unpaid internships

DOL

 

I've read through both, so I can quote sections if you prefer. There are other things. That was just the most blatant misrepresentation. As you can see you can't legally displace productive work with unpaid labor. Larger companies typically use unpaid interns to vet potential candidates for hire after graduation, so it still has value to them. Where this may decrease internship opportunities is among smaller local businesses.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


So when are you going to start thinking logically. The fact of the matter is that the areas of this country with the most liberal approaches to the homeless have the most serious homeless issues.

 

Edit: fixed sentence structure

 

I'm curious whether your state and municipality has policies that have accomplished something positive there. For example if the police come across someone who is loitering and obviously homeless, how is it dealt with in your city of residence? As for San Francisco, it's one of those areas where I think many of the low wage jobs will become automated. It's not limited to an issue of minimum wage though. Affordable housing keeps being pushed further out to the point where it becomes less viable to make the commute for lower wage work when balanced against other responsibilities. I suspect that many poorer individuals hold down more than one job. In cases with kids one might work two jobs while the other deals stays with the kids to mitigate childcare expenses. In such cases commuting distance could become a big factor as a moderately high wage can be less effective than a second job with both being closer to their residence. Parts of California have certain rent control policies, but they aren't as aggressive as NY. In most cities they don't apply to newer buildings or anything classified as a luxury unit. In cases of extreme gentrification residents are often bought out. It basically covers relocation expenses. As for the typical rent control where it does apply, it's typically limited to 5-7% per year. That is limited, but it's trivial if applied on an annual basis over many years. Most of the policies surrounding the homeless in California are almost triage, but I think much of that is a lack of desire to really fund anything beyond that. Admitting many of them to mental wards or detention facilities as you suggest does not seem like it would mitigate costs given the average cost per resident in some of those facilities.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

In any event I don't think a lot of people grasp how hopeless it is to try to help somebody that is mentally ill without intensive supervision.
Actually I don't buy that either. Far more than half the population I run into is far below that intelligence level. Of course that probably depends upon how you measure the IQ and how you define intelligence but it is amazing just how many stupid people there are out and about.

I'll add that IQ was never designed to measure intelligence. The test was initially derived to help diagnose learning disabilities.


Edited by hmm - 5/5/14 at 6:49pm
post #87 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think humans, for the most part, have evolved beyond the law of the jungle. The foundation of civilization is built upon respect, compassion cooperation and the understanding that there is a greater good.

Nobody here is denying that a greater good exists. That isn't the problem. They problem is well meaning charity making the situation worst for the homeless and frankly the greater good. Sometimes you need to put a foot down and say enough is enough!

 

Homeless street people are by and large, mentally disabled and in some cases physically disabled, suffering from substance abuse and disease. Putting your foot down means absolutely nothing in terms of teaching them a lesson or improving their condition. 

 

Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

 

Quote:

Simply striving to fill ones stomach does nothing to contribute to society or even to ones own personal growth and well being in the long run.
Baloney! Much of early technology was directed at filling ones stomach

Technology has existed for many centuries. The early technologies of Galileo and Newton certainly weren't born out of a desire to fill their stomachs and modern technology was spawned from within the universities on full scholarship.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
 
Quote:
That is why most people understand that they need to think logically instead of being driven entirely by primitive self-interest urges.
So when are you going to start thinking logically. The fact of the matter is that the areas of this country with the most liberal approaches to the homeless have the most serious homeless issues.
 

In case you haven't noticed, San Francisco is no different than any other large city in the US with respect to homeless population. The problem is universal.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
 
Quote:
Like everything in life, there should be a balance. A society made entirely of entrepreneur freelancers would never work. There needs to be more organization and structure in order to solve complex problems.
Again more baloney. Heavy organization and structure is inflexible and inefficient and seldom results in innovation in any activity.

Yeah, I can't remember the guy's name who invented space travel or that other guy who ended World War II all by himself. I'm drawing a blank. What was the name of that entrepreneur who extinguished the recent forest fires in California and rescued those thousands of people displaced by the tsunami? Was he the low bidder on that project?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
 
Quote:

Unless we share and work as a team we cannot progress. Without cooperation we would be constantly reinventing the wheel and getting no where.

This is funny considering this is an Apple forum. You do realize that Apple has reinvented the wheel many times and often did so against the normal flow of industry. Progress is often the direct result of a single person saying hey I got something different to solve this problem.

Apple engineering teams have hundreds of members working together. You of all people should know this. They don't reinvent everything, they usually build upon their previous work.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #88 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Apple engineering teams have hundreds of members working together. You of all people should know this. They don't reinvent everything, they usually build upon their previous work.

You're right and wrong. Sparks of genius always come from one person, but it may take a team to turn those sparks into a raging inferno.

Beethoven 5 was created by one man, but it still took the team effort of an orchestra and conductor for everyone to appreciate that genius.
“I wasted time, and now doth time waste me.”
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“I wasted time, and now doth time waste me.”
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post #89 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post

You're right and wrong. Sparks of genius always come from one person, but it may take a team to turn those sparks into a raging inferno.

Beethoven 5 was created by one man, but it still took the team effort of an orchestra and conductor for everyone to appreciate that genius.

Good point, and even provides further support of our philosophy that it takes a village, but you better be careful with that raging inferno reference as a positive attribute, considering  your usual Christian themed posts. Someone might get the wrong idea.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #90 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Just what did he say wrong. Have you had contact with any of these people? The fact is there is nothing you can do to improve the lives of many of these people. Mental illness is a tough problem to deal with and currently the only way to achieve forced treatment is for that individual to demonstrate a danger to society.
Fine - put your head in the sand and deny the truth. Part of that truth is that a great deal of charitable giving goes to waste.

 

OK, I'm done with this discussion, but I wanted to address one last thing (the bolded statement):

 

Contact with "these people?"  I WAS ONE OF "THOSE PEOPLE!"  Come back to me when you've had nowhere to live (even though in my case it was for a relatively short time, not a lifestyle), got whatever money you could mostly from selling plasma and the like, and ate a soup kitchen every night.

 

Then, and only then, can you lecture me on "these people."

 

Later.

post #91 of 91

Beethoven was a genius when he created the Ninth symphony when he  was completely deaf and could not even hear his music he created.

No way can you compare Apple to this genius ever!

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