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Apple remains mum as complaints mount over 2011 MacBook Pro GPU failures - Page 3

post #81 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 


Hello Mr. Strawman.

 

Are we or are we not discussing out of warranty repairs?

 

My Ford warranty ran out years ago, why shouldn't they fix my car in the same way people are demanding of Apple?

 

I bought a new Ford, I bought a new MacBook.

 

That's life, nothing lasts forever.

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post #82 of 117
I wish apple would hurry up and admit they fucked up on this. 
post #83 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

Are we or are we not discussing out of warranty repairs?

 

My Ford warranty ran out years ago, why shouldn't they fix my car in the same way people are demanding of Apple?

 

I bought a new Ford, I bought a new MacBook.

 

That's life, nothing lasts forever.


You're comparing totally different things, but just to humor you, vehicle manufacturers do issue recalls when there is a known problem. Apple has also initiated repair programs on past models. 2010 had one for the 330m. I think 2009 was another. The reason I don't think they'll do that here is that they typically only extend service for 3 years. Many of those purchases are going past the 3 year mark at this point.

 

I'll also point out that you decided to exaggerate your timetable and jam in the comment about a new Dell when he said it meant having to buy a new macbook pro.

post #84 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post


You're comparing totally different things, but just to humor you, vehicle manufacturers do issue recalls when there is a known problem. Apple has also initiated repair programs on past models. 2010 had one for the 330m. I think 2009 was another. The reason I don't think they'll do that here is that they typically only extend service for 3 years. Many of those purchases are going past the 3 year mark at this point.

I'll also point out that you decided to exaggerate your timetable and jam in the comment about a new Dell when he said it meant having to buy a new macbook pro.

My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.

They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.

Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.

Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?

The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
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post #85 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.

They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.

Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.

Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?

The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.


You missed the point about known issues. You wanted to use a car example. I pointed out that it was a bad example as recalls do happen for known issues. Your attempt to make it about warranties is abject nonsense when it comes to such things. Otherwise they wouldn't have issued repair programs in the past for items with a higher than normal rate of failure.  Beyond that don't misquote the guy.

 

This is what he actually said.

Quote:
I'll probably have to go buy a $2k MBP for something that should be fixed by Apple. I'm also losing valuable work time while this is being sorted out. It's incredibly frustrating that Apple is not stepping up and resolving these issues. My confidence in this company is really changing.
post #86 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post

It is not GPU fault.
It is soldering fault.
Over time and temperature GPU lose contact with motherboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

If true, I have to say, that in my book, defines a design fault.

It is a soldering issue, specifically with the solder itself. The lead-free stuff just isn't able to flex without cracking unlike the leaded solder, and since GPUs tend to get hotter than CPUs the solder cracks before it does on the CPU. I never use the lead-free crap in any electronics I make, and I've never ended up with a dry joint.

The EU demanded under ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) that lead be removed from all electronics around 2006/7, and since then we've had endless GPU issues. The Nvidia 8000 series was the first with issues, then the Nvidia 9000, and it seems AMD are having trouble too as of late. As usual with the EU, they pushed a technology before it was ready; so instead of reducing hazardous waste they actually increased it through all the discarded logic boards/graphics cards that failed from dry solder joints.1oyvey.gif /rant
post #87 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.

They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.

Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.

Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?

The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.

 

My 2000 Toyota was recalled just two years ago, way way past its warranty. Car manufacturers do often make repairs even out of warranty for manufacturer defects (albeit especially -- though not exclusively -- when there's a safety issue). They do it because it was their mistake, and it's good customer service. No company that expects its products to become bricks the day the warranty expires is going to win customer loyalty for long.

 

(nb. I don't own an affected MBP. I just think you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding corporate behavior in your allegedly analogous case.)

post #88 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post

It is not GPU fault.
It is soldering fault.
Over time and temperature GPU lose contact with motherboard.

This is similar to the RROD on the xbox.

I'm not going to blame Apple for it either. The problem with "ultrabook" designs is that there is insufficient surface area for proper cooling. I had the GPU in a non-apple laptop built in 2003 or so finally quit after not being used and being stored for a year, I've had Sony camcorder CCD's do the same. For whatever reason it seems like the TIM (Thermal Interface Material) fails to evenly cool the part, so it develops a hot spot, ultimately causing the solder on the pin side to lose contact. This wouldn't happen if the major thermal parts were socketed, as the socket itself insulates the PCB from the thermal stress. But alas, ultrabook designs are horrible for this reason.

You are better off switching to a tablet and using it as a thin client.
post #89 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post

It is a soldering issue, specifically with the solder itself. The lead-free stuff just isn't able to flex without cracking unlike the leaded solder, and since GPUs tend to get hotter than CPUs the solder cracks before it does on the CPU. I never use the lead-free crap in any electronics I make, and I've never ended up with a dry joint.

The EU demanded under ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) that lead be removed from all electronics around 2006/7, and since then we've had endless GPU issues. The Nvidia 8000 series was the first with issues, then the Nvidia 9000, and it seems AMD are having trouble too as of late. As usual with the EU, they pushed a technology before it was ready; so instead of reducing hazardous waste they actually increased it through all the discarded logic boards/graphics cards that failed from dry solder joints.1oyvey.gif /rant

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa View Post

This is similar to the RROD on the xbox.

I'm not going to blame Apple for it either. The problem with "ultrabook" designs is that there is insufficient surface area for proper cooling. I had the GPU in a non-apple laptop built in 2003 or so finally quit after not being used and being stored for a year, I've had Sony camcorder CCD's do the same. For whatever reason it seems like the TIM (Thermal Interface Material) fails to evenly cool the part, so it develops a hot spot, ultimately causing the solder on the pin side to lose contact. This wouldn't happen if the major thermal parts were socketed, as the socket itself insulates the PCB from the thermal stress. But alas, ultrabook designs are horrible for this reason.

You are better off switching to a tablet and using it as a thin client.
 

exactly!

lead-free solder* + overheating = problem.

it is not exclusively Apple problem.

 

http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22373

 

I saw some MacBook Pro coming to life after reballing GPU.

 

*@Elijahg - I agree. Traditionally governments trying to simply patch negative effect that come from system itself and often they end producing more evil than good. Only way to make things truly better is complete redesign of system but no government can do that. .1oyvey.gif /rant

post #90 of 117
I own a 2011 MacBook Pro, and I had the exact same problem that's described here. I wound up having my GPU replaced. Since my laptop is still covered by AppleCare, it wasn't a problem.
post #91 of 117
I'm having the problem with my laptop - going to genius bar tomorrow.

We set up a promotion to support the cause and give away some funny prizes for helping spread the word. Check it out, and if you want to contribute prizes, please let us know!

http://sdqk.me/31KHyZDa
post #92 of 117
My 17" MBP has had occasional system freezes since I bought the thing, always when working on a large number of photos or sometimes in Safari if I come across a video or something Flash-related. A reboot always brings it back. I've had a couple of occasions where I've seen some graphics artifacts, but again a reboot and letting the machine cool off brings things back to normal. Unfortunately, like many of us now, I think my AppleCare has just expired. Let's hope Apple does the right thing here.
post #93 of 117
Same machine same problem. Wrote to Tom Cook, signed the petition at change.org.
Really, Apple--- how long will you deny this DEFECT!!!!!
post #94 of 117
Originally Posted by mermaidsmagic View Post
signed the petition at change.org.

 

Except that won’t do anything at all.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #95 of 117

TIM COOK NOT TOM COOK.

post #96 of 117
Macbook Pro 17" 2011

I had my motherboard replaced after 2 years. It lasted one year.

I had my second motherboard replaced after 3 years: It lasted 2 weeks.

If we assume the motherboards they are using for replacements are old stock, can we not conclude that the deterioration is an on-the shelf ageing problem, and no amount of replacement boards will solve the problem?
post #97 of 117
post #98 of 117

Just had similar symptoms of failure with my 2011 MacBook Pro a few weeks ago: 15", i7 2.3 Ghz, AMD 6750M

 

The Mac would not boot and would stick on the grey loading screen, the only way to boot to desktop was with Safe mode. This pretty much made the mac unusable even for just email or web use never mind graphics and video editing work.
And even worse this was 18 days after the 3yr Apple Care expired :(.  Tried a clean backup OS system off a external drive same result.

 

Took my MBP to the Apple Store for a Genius appointment (Hong Kong) first chance I got, the genius I spoke with was very fair and professional and took my MBP to the store workshop to perform some tests (OS, ram etc) and returned saying he was unable to boot the mac at all. A logic board replacement was prescribed at the cost of $4500HKD ... I had by this point presented a slew of reports of the GPU failure in the 2011 model off my iPad (and later the genius admitted seeing more than a unusual amount of this 2011 models coming into the Genius bar).

Fortunately for me the repair fee was discretionarily waived by the manager on account of both the geniuses recommendation and as I had previously taken my mac while still covered by warranty to a Genius bar 6 months earlier and mentioned symptoms that the mac screen was blacking out and shutting down which were unable to be recreated at the time. Some faith in Apple restored!!
 

 

Having had my MBP back with a new logic board it seems ok so far, completed some initial CPU intensive processor tests at 100% = 90℃/ fans 6000rpm under load of video transcoding but dropping back to a average of 60℃ and 2000rpm when idling at 5% CPU. Hope this replacement logic board wont fail when out of the 3mth warranty as other have reported. Selling this machine on as a ticking bomb to someone else seems like bad karma ☯.
 

Appleplease acknowledge the flaw in this premium computer and begin a official recall programme.
 

 

* Coincidentally I had already been following the infamous MBP2011 Apple Discussions thread as my friend had his MBP2011 die on him in early April, he ended up paying for a logic board replacement in Amsterdam. And another friend who works as a designer just had his company MBP2011 die the same week as mine in London.

post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post


No they wouldn't. It has happened before. It takes a lot to get them to be accountable. If the defect doesn't show itself until customer service contracts are concluded, they have no motivation to respond to it... unless it's a big PR problem.

Most big corporations will ignore a large percentage of defects and customers so long as it doesn't hurt their public image. With computer tech, unless the defects get regularly mentioned in magazines and high profile web reviews, where it seems to possibly affect future sales, there's rarely any accommodation or accountability for even mass defects.

 

I don't agree, at least not as it pertains to Apple specifically.  Their history has been to correct problems once they deem it affects a relatively large number of units.  Apple has previously had repair programs for similar issues.  

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post #100 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbarry View Post

Macbook Pro 17" 2011

I had my motherboard replaced after 2 years. It lasted one year.

I had my second motherboard replaced after 3 years: It lasted 2 weeks.

If we assume the motherboards they are using for replacements are old stock, can we not conclude that the deterioration is an on-the shelf ageing problem, and no amount of replacement boards will solve the problem?

 

On the shelf aging problem?  Highly doubtful.  They are probably just defective to begin with.  

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post #101 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post
 

 

On the shelf aging problem?  Highly doubtful.  They are probably just defective to begin with.  

 

Indeed. The second motherboard was probably reconditioned, and therefore used. 

post #102 of 117
i have the same problem with my mac 2011 15" and the problem is i bought it from a guy and i live in east africa so unless i fix it my self,i am pretty much screwed.disabling the discrete mode and increasing the fan speed helped a bit!...it crashes but not so often...this is my fourth mac and i am a programmer so i am now stuck with my macbook air for compiling and rendering graphics.just to think i payed all that money for a worthless shit is just infuriating!
post #103 of 117

Apple replaces their parts with reconditioned ones and sometimes their notebooks also.

post #104 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post
 

Apple replaces their parts with reconditioned ones and sometimes their notebooks also.

Their policies indicate new and refurbished parts are used in warranty repairs. There isn't any way of telling what you're getting, but it's not guaranteed to be one or  the other.

post #105 of 117

It is pot luck with Apple I know this.You are correct.

post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

It is pot luck with Apple I know this.You are correct.

The parts eventually stop being manufactured so the later the replacement, the more likely they have to use refurbished parts. This probably lengthens the turnaround time for a repair if they can't find a refurbished part and maybe need to have one shipped from another store.

It would be nice if they could even solder a newer lower powered GPU into the same motherboard.Recondition a batch of old boards with new GPUs and they shouldn't get the same problem again and again.
post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



It would be nice if they could even solder a newer lower powered GPU into the same motherboard.Recondition a batch of old boards with new GPUs and they shouldn't get the same problem again and again.

That would be cool, but it has never happened. I suspect there's too much testing and adjustment involved to make it a viable proposition. Otherwise they might have tried the use of a different gpu with the more famous NVidia problem a few years ago.

post #108 of 117

I have a 2011 MBP 15 inch,  first logic board failure was Jan , 2nd LB failure was March . I am now on  my 3rd LB failure which happened today.  Fortunately the LB is still within 90 warranty. The first and 2nd replaced LBs lasted  75 and 78 days each. 

 

Any one else experiencing multiple LB failures ?

post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by neurosec View Post

I have a 2011 MBP 15 inch,  first logic board failure was Jan , 2nd LB failure was March . I am now on  my 3rd LB failure which happened today.  Fortunately the LB is still within 90 warranty. The first and 2nd replaced LBs lasted  75 and 78 days each. 

Any one else experiencing multiple LB failures ?

That should be logged in their system. Some people with that many failures have been given the option of a new machine, some have been refused further repairs. Take it back and tell them you'd like to get another product, it's a losing battle trying to get that model repeatedly fixed. Even if they give you an entry Macbook Air, it's worth about the same as the 2011 MBP and you can sell it and upgrade to a 15".
post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


That should be logged in their system. Some people with that many failures have been given the option of a new machine, some have been refused further repairs. Take it back and tell them you'd like to get another product, it's a losing battle trying to get that model repeatedly fixed. Even if they give you an entry Macbook Air, it's worth about the same as the 2011 MBP and you can sell it and upgrade to a 15".

 

Exactly.  You may have to turn the screws a bit, but they should give you (him) a new machine.  If they refuse, I'd tell them I'm contacting the appropriate federal agencies.  I one filed a complaint with the FCC and FTC against Verizon, and it was resolved two weeks later :)  

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post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Some people with that many failures have been given the option of a new machine, some have been refused further repairs. 

 

I always wish companies would more consistent and up front about this sort of thing. It just leads to too much bad blood when they only help the squeakiest wheels.

post #112 of 117

Apple usually is good about replacing their bad machines.They have excellent customer service as I know from my own experience with Mac Book Pros.

post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post
 

 

I always wish companies would more consistent and up front about this sort of thing. It just leads to too much bad blood when they only help the squeakiest wheels.

 

They are, Apple offers warranty protection for a time period required by consumer law and offers to extend it for a fee.

 

These machines are outside both of those.

 

The only legal reason outside this period would be due to a safety issue e.g. cars, I doubt this falls under that category.

 

Anything Apple chooses to do is voluntary.

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post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post
 

Apple usually is good about replacing their bad machines.They have excellent customer service as I know from my own experience with Mac Book Pros.

That depends on with whom you speak, both with the customer and Apple reps.  I've had both very good service, and very poor (and unreasonable) service.  I've had them swap out a year-old iPhone because a button intermittently didn't work, no questions asked.  I've also had them tell me they "weren't interested" in replacing an 8 month old removable Macbook/Powerbook battery because it being a 50% performance was "normal" and it was a "consumable item."  I called back later and got a totally different response.   You just never know.  In this case, you're dealing with machines that often malfunction outside of the warranty (extended or otherwise) period.  People are upset because they claim it is a known issue.  It's a tricky issue, because we've seen other cases where Apple institutes a repair/replace program for known defective products.  In other cases, it seems to ignore problems.  I think what we have here is a situation that falls on the borderline of critical mass.  There are a significant number of people who have this issue, but not enough to warrant a recall or similar action 3 years from date of purchase.  They (Apple) likely figure it's easier to repair and replace on a case by case basis until the issue just goes away as people naturally replace their hardware.  

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post #115 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

They are, Apple offers warranty protection for a time period required by consumer law and offers to extend it for a fee.

 

These machines are outside both of those.

 

The only legal reason outside this period would be due to a safety issue e.g. cars, I doubt this falls under that category.

 

Anything Apple chooses to do is voluntary.

 

I agree entirely that Apple's not obligated to help, but "voluntary" doesn't have to entail "arbitrary" and "meant to appease those who whine most successfully." The next note after yours relates such an experience: one rep denied a battery replacement, and the next one permitted it, with no change in circumstances. Apple's policies ought to be such that it's clear what they'll do and won't do in such situations, and not a result of which customer service rep answers the phone and how the customer words the request. 

post #116 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post
 

 

I agree entirely that Apple's not obligated to help, but "voluntary" doesn't have to entail "arbitrary" and "meant to appease those who whine most successfully." The next note after yours relates such an experience: one rep denied a battery replacement, and the next one permitted it, with no change in circumstances. Apple's policies ought to be such that it's clear what they'll do and won't do in such situations, and not a result of which customer service rep answers the phone and how the customer words the request. 

 

I'll go further:  It really depends on the nature of the defect.  Apple may be legally responsible, depending on the circumstances.  For example, what if a company knowingly released defective products and then refused to replace/repair them right after the warranty ended?  A class action lawsuit might be filed.  Depending on outcome (settlement or trial), the company may be held legally responsible.   

 

What we have here, as I said, is a situation that really falls through the cracks.  Apple knows about the issue, but has opted to deal with it on a case by case basis.  That is probably because of the warranty periods being over and the number of complaints they've gotten.  If this affected 50,000 machines, you might have a different story.  I don't know the number, but I expect it's a few thousand units, maybe a little more.  

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post #117 of 117
Thought I'd share my find after countless forums and message boards with the same problem only to have apple genius tell all the same thing - that it's a logic board issue and that the graphics chip or processor is possibly damaged.

Well I found through other such cases that the logic board doesn't necessarily have to be replaced as the apple geniuses would have us all believing. Apparently pc users get the same problem too, and according to techs that fix pc's all the time, this screen problem and inability to boot is an easy and fast fix, it's generally related to a graphics chip problem where the soder that binds the chip to the logic board has softened due to overheating. If you take your mbp to a pc tech who also deals in fixing Macs, he will be able to do what's called a reflow, which is a process of rebinding or resodering any loose pins back to the logic board. According to them this is a simple fix. Only takes two hours max to complete! Do as I did, find yourselves a Computer tech in your neighborhood using yelp, mine quoted me only $80, and only need to pay if he's able to fix it and if thats the only issue! Of course, for some people, your chip may be cracked or fried, therefore only a new board would be advised, but please try this first before letting apple genius convince you to turn yours in for some rediculous fees and dollar amounts of up to $1200 in some cases I've read.

The logic board is repairable folks if it's only loose soder...just as long as there's nothing else wrong with the graphics chip and nothing else is cracked or damaged like the board itself, connectors, the drive, etc...there may be hope yet! So find yourself a pc tech who also repair macs, and who knows about doing a reflow...this may solve your problem!
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