or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Microsoft unveils $799 Surface Pro 3, calls it 'the tablet that can replace your laptop'
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Microsoft unveils $799 Surface Pro 3, calls it 'the tablet that can replace your laptop' - Page 4

post #121 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkalu View Post

All their comparisons were based on Apple's iPad and MacBook Air leading one to believe that they are terrified of Apple products. Proof that Apple products are the standard and benchmark.
Yep, though they can't really compare it to PC OEM products can they? That would really piss off their partners who I'm sure are annoyed enough that Microsoft has decided to get into hardware.
post #122 of 183

Actually...

 

http://www.adonit.net/jot/script/

post #123 of 183

I wonder if the Pro 3 alone is the real reason for the 12" LCDs reported in the supply chain that inspired the larger iPad and 12" MBA rumors. I don't recall what was being reported for the resolution/aspect ratio of the 12" other than "retina."

"Inspirational phrase here." - Person you never heard of here.

Reply

"Inspirational phrase here." - Person you never heard of here.

Reply
post #124 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 
They've gotten pretty pathetic in terms of objectivity and click-whoring. 

 

As posted on AI, bastion of fair, balanced, objective journalism. <*Cough!*>

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply
post #125 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anome View Post
 
Microsoft's problem is that they want the Surface to be all things to all people. That means trying to be a tablet and a PC, and not really succeeding at either.

 

I get how it fails as a laptop, but not as a tablet. Seems to me that the tablet part of its implementation is just fine -- trade some battery life for horsepower and screen size. Seems reasonable to me.

 

I also REALLY like the idea of being able to use a stylus with Photoshop or other "desktop" apps. That's something I would exploit.

 

As an Apple laptop user I really see no need for an iPad, but if I were still a Windows laptop user I could definitely see replacing it with a Surface 3.

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply
post #126 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorin Schultz View Post

I get how it fails as a laptop, but not as a tablet. Seems to me that the tablet part of its implementation is just fine -- trade some battery life for horsepower and screen size. Seems reasonable to me.

I also REALLY like the idea of being able to use a stylus with Photoshop or other "desktop" apps. That's something I would exploit.

As an Apple laptop user I really see no need for an iPad, but if I were still a Windows laptop user I could definitely see replacing it with a Surface 3.

1) The OS and apps aren't designed well for tablet use.

2) Have you used the 11.6" MBA for work that needs horsepower and screen size? Of course not, so why would anyone want a Surface Pro for those reasons? Their "no compromise" solution is nothing but compromises.

3) As an Apple laptop user I can't see how you could use a Surface Pro with its keyboard over the one Apple offers.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #127 of 183

Jeez, MS is really clueless when it comes to mobile... Here is their faster horse!

 

Mobile is all about having a computer ON you (phone) or right beside you (tablet) most of the time - as opposed to having a computer on a desk in the next room or in a brief case somewhere. Mobile is not replacing mouse/keyboard computing because it is not mature enough yet. It needs people behind it who believe in mobile and reinvent the apps with radical new ideas. So mobile is about opening new possibilities and new use cases for computing devices.

 

It is not about bringing legacy computing experiences/environments in more portable form factors. It is about reinventing them altogether while leveraging the advantages inherent to mobile devices.

post #128 of 183
If they can gelt this work smoothly it certainly beats having to use two separate operating systems i.e. one for desktops and one for mobile devices..
post #129 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorin Schultz View Post
 

I also REALLY like the idea of being able to use a stylus with Photoshop or other "desktop" apps. That's something I would exploit.

 

 

You like the idea of using a stylus with desktop apps? Please. Been there, done that. Microsoft has been pushing that since the early 1990s. Even Apple tried it. It's not what the world has been waiting for.

 

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #130 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


I have to disagree! A lot of creatives will be drawn to using Photoshop with a direct on-the-display stylus interaction,

Can't do that on either an Apple Laptop or an Apple Tablet.

I also expect to see CAD and Drafting apps developed to take advantage of this capability!

 

If by "can't do that" you mean limit yourself to just 256 pressure levels, then yes.

This Wacom Intuos iPad stylus has 2048 pressure levels.

 

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #131 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

Is there a huge demand for three wheeled vehicles?

 

Tablets are like motorcycles (2 wheels), and laptops are like cars (four wheels).

 

What MS has done is blended both and come up with a three wheeled vehicle, that's neither better than a motorcycle or a car, and how many three wheeled vehicles do you see on the road?

 


Three wheelers are great.  I live in a tiny place in the middle of nowhere and see them all the time. 

 

Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, coming iPhone 5S, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x1, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod classic...
Reply
Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, coming iPhone 5S, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x1, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod classic...
Reply
post #132 of 183
It's awesome. They'll sell dozens.
post #133 of 183
I think we can expect a lighter MacBook Air by the end of the year. I appreciate that Microsoft is trying to innovate but I'd still rather have a much lighter iPad AND a laptop rather than something that is too heavier to use one handed and is offers a mediocre typing experience as a laptop...and has an OS that is neither here nor there.
post #134 of 183

I sure wish Apple would put an SD card slot in the iPads.

post #135 of 183

I like it. 

 

The change to 3:2 aspect ratio, as we know from the iPhone, gives a lot of viewable content and is a good compromise for usage and viewing video.

 

I like the idea of a laptop when I need it, and a tablet for just relaxing on the couch watching "Game of Thrones".

 

Concerns: hinge life and tension after a year of pressure, and battery life.

 

If my MBA and R-Mini died suddenly, I'd get the Surface Pro 3. For $999 + $129 it's the better value prospect compared to getting another MBA and iPad Air or Mini.

 

As far as convergence goes, it's getting closer to where the concept needs to be, and what I would consider viable.

post #136 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 

You like the idea of using a stylus with desktop apps? Please. Been there, done that. Microsoft has been pushing that since the early 1990s. Even Apple tried it. It's not what the world has been waiting for.

 

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that you had already decided for the rest of us that styli are "so ten minutes ago." How come no one ever asks ME what the world is waiting for? How did you get that gig? Does it pay well?

 

But seriously, I'm not talking about the old pen-as-replacement-for-mouse nonsense. I hated that as much as everyone else. I'm talking about how the Surface becomes more like a Wacom Cintiq by allowing you to draw directly on the screen. Pen support may not be unique to the Surface, but the fact that it's a "native" component, presumably with OS-level support, means developers are much more likely to include ways to exploit it in their apps.

 

I know it's not an Apple device, but I somehow managed to find things to like about it anyway. Sorry about that! :)

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply
post #137 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


I have to disagree! A lot of creatives will be drawn to using Photoshop with a direct on-the-display stylus interaction,

Can't do that on either an Apple Laptop or an Apple Tablet.

I also expect to see CAD and Drafting apps developed to take advantage of this capability!

 

If by "can't do that" you mean limit yourself to just 256 pressure levels, then yes.

This Wacom Intuos iPad stylus has 2048 pressure levels.

 

Holy crap! You got Photoshop running on an iPad?! That's incredible! How?!

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply
post #138 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
 
Have you used the 11.6" MBA for work that needs horsepower and screen size?

 

I get your point. I'm sure you also got MINE, which was that the Surface has more power and real estate than other tablets.

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

Reply
post #139 of 183
It has a fan. LOL.
Edited by leighr - 5/21/14 at 2:43am
post #140 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anome View Post


I made no claims about differences between touch and mouse-centric input. I mentioned the use cases. Tablets and PCs are used in different ways for different things. These differences in use necessitate differences in the UI and, to an increasingly lesser extent, the hardware.

Microsoft's problem is that they want the Surface to be all things to all people. That means trying to be a tablet and a PC, and not really succeeding at either.

Different use boils down to different input.

In the field a separate keyboard is unusable most of the time, so you have to rely on touch and so your apps and OS must be good at that.

MS problem is that they try to support conflicting input methods like touch and mouse at the same time, and fail to see that only one at the time is valid and its even better to have only one.

If apps and OS can switch between the input method (or role), they morph instead of merge, users can be presented a consistent interface that fully utilizes the input paradigm. This means of course that app and OS makers must write two versions of each program and have to think about the morph phase.

It is much easier to choose only one input method like touch (as Apple did), and write all apps and the OS for that. (Its a choice of a full electric car instead of a hybrid.)

And in doing so all portable computers can be replaced by this (and even the desktop if you think of it) when they are stripped of their cumbersome keyboard, mouse area and flip screen and made a perfect minimal computer: the tablet.

post #141 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by leighr View Post

It has a fan. LOL.

Well, they had to put one in. In the real world, there is none to be found.
post #142 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorin Schultz View Post

I get your point. I'm sure you also got MINE, which was that the Surface has more power and real estate than other tablets.

Does it really have more power? On paper, sure, it's a Core v ARM, but the OS and apps use a good deal of that before the user can do what they want.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #143 of 183
Remember that old rumour about Preview coming to the next version of iOS. I didn't think it made a lot of sense at the time but if Apple adds a digitizer to the next iPad it would make a lot more sense as the annotation options become more usable with a stylus. Add tot hat a new frameworks and APIs it could make that a killer feature.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #144 of 183
Originally Posted by appleempl View Post
I sure wish Apple would put an SD card slot in the iPads.

 

Why?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
post #145 of 183
I'm pretty sure WWDC in 12 days will bring a very good response to this product. At least I really hope so, because i'd love to switch to iMac [whatever Apple responds to surface with], instead of MacBook Pro iPad. I could use the iMacs power, but I need a Notebook on the go and I use my iPad to draw, take notes etc.
post #146 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Why?

because he hasn't got the SD adapter that sells for 29 bucks

post #147 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowitall View Post
 

Different use boils down to different input.

In the field a separate keyboard is unusable most of the time, so you have to rely on touch and so your apps and OS must be good at that.

MS problem is that they try to support conflicting input methods like touch and mouse at the same time, and fail to see that only one at the time is valid and its even better to have only one.

 

I cannot even imaging being able to balance the kickstand, front edge of the SP3, and front edge of the keyboard on my lap, in an effort to replace a MBA. And there would *still* be no mouse or trackpad, which is second nature to me when using a keyboard. Having to reach up to touch the screen would be possible, but a very awkward motion.  But mainly, my legs just are not long enough nor steady enough to balance all that equipment, and still hope to be productive.  And if I'm going to be using a desk, then I don't need the cramped arrangement either.  So the SP3 is a complete fail for me, in that regard. Gimme an iPad and an iMac (or MBA, if I'm going to be taking notes and working on my lap).

post #148 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Does it really have more power? On paper, sure, it's a Core v ARM, but the OS and apps use a good deal of that before the user can do what they want.


LOL... Can you run VS2012 and SQL Server 2012 on your ipad?  No?  I can (and do) run them just fine on my Surface Pro - and that's the first gen with the i5.

post #149 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post
 

 

I cannot even imaging being able to balance the kickstand, front edge of the SP3, and front edge of the keyboard on my lap, in an effort to replace a MBA. And there would *still* be no mouse or trackpad, which is second nature to me when using a keyboard. Having to reach up to touch the screen would be possible, but a very awkward motion.  But mainly, my legs just are not long enough nor steady enough to balance all that equipment, and still hope to be productive.  And if I'm going to be using a desk, then I don't need the cramped arrangement either.  So the SP3 is a complete fail for me, in that regard. Gimme an iPad and an iMac (or MBA, if I'm going to be taking notes and working on my lap).

 

The surface keyboards all have trackpads.  I'm not sure where you got the idea that they didn't?  They even made improvements on the type cover for the SP3. 

 

As for the ergonomics of touch on a laptop, from my experience you are wrong.  The motion of reaching forward to touch is actually very natural.  More so, than reaching backwards for a trackpad or sideways for a mouse.  On a desktop, I agree with you - the screen is generally to far a way on a desktop.  But, on a laptop or small device like the surface, the screen is close.  It's actually sort of funny to watch my wife occasionally use someone else's non-touch device - touch has become so second nature that she often will reach and touch the screen and then take a few seconds to realize why nothing happened :)

post #150 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknwntrr View Post
 

because he hasn't got the SD adapter that sells for 29 bucks

I think the question is related to why would you need an SD adapter in the first place? I.e. what possible need do you have for such an archaic thing?

post #151 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbi View Post


LOL... Can you run VS2012 and SQL Server 2012 on your ipad?  No?  I can (and do) run them just fine on my Surface Pro - and that's the first gen with the i5.

1) SQL Server runs on ARM?

2) What sense does it make to run a server on a confused tablet? You can make the MBA — a comparable example — a server but why would you? This is no different than people running Adobe apps on a netbooks. Sure, it's technically possible but you look foolish when you use it as a talking point.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #152 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) SQL Server runs on ARM?

2) What sense does it make to run a server on a confused tablet? You can make the MBA — a comparable example — a server but why would you? This is no different than people running Adobe apps on a netbooks. Sure, it's technically possible but you look foolish when you use it as a talking point.

 

1)  Of course not - but, you were asking if the surface was really more powerful.  The answer is absolutely yes - the iPad has a great ARM processor - but, it is not comparable to a core i5 in computational power.

 

2) I'm a developer.  Visual Studio and SQL Server are some of the tools of my trade.  Having them available on my Surface, lets me do a little bit of work when I'm out and about.  For me, the surface can and does act as a laptop replacement and a tablet replacement. 

 

All, I can say is I'm glad my plans to get the Pro 2 got derailed - since, the Pro 3 is much more to my liking.  The bigger screen will make a huge difference to me. 

post #153 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbi View Post
 

The surface keyboards all have trackpads.  I'm not sure where you got the idea that they didn't?  They even made improvements on the type cover for the SP3. 

 

I was just looking at the picture, and a trackpad didn't register.  I have only ever seen one Surface "in the wild" and it did not have a keyboard, so I've never seen or touched the keyboard.  (But I see MBA's and iPads all over town.)  Upon re-inspection of the photo, I do now see what is probably the trackpad--previously I just saw a large blue bezel.  So I'll rescind my objection about lack of trackpad.  I still cannot imagine using the whole cantilevered arrangement in my smallish lap, though.  But I'm trying to envision using one, so give me credit for keeping an open mind!

post #154 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbi View Post

1)  Of course not - but, you were asking if the surface was really more powerful.  The answer is absolutely yes - the iPad has a great ARM processor - but, it is not comparable to a core i5 in computational power.

2) I'm a developer.  Visual Studio and SQL Server are some of the tools of my trade.  Having them available on my Surface, lets me do a little bit of work when I'm out and about.  For me, the surface can and does act as a laptop replacement and a tablet replacement. 

All, I can say is I'm glad my plans to get the Pro 2 got derailed - since, the Pro 3 is much more to my liking.  The bigger screen will make a huge difference to me. 

1) I clearly asked about usability since iOS is much more efficient of an OS as well as being deigned for the HW just as their apps are more efficient and designed for the HW, which is not the case with Windows or its apps. Using SQL Server not only makes no sense in that discussion but hurts any argument you may have. It's like saying I can run Xcode on an 11" MBA with a Core-i5 processor. It's technically accurate but it's a horrible experience.

2) You're a developer that uses Visual Studio so neither iOS nor Mac OS X would work for you so, again, even considering an iPad makes zero sense for this false comparison. No one is saying that weird use case isn't valid, but don't try to make a case that this is some norm and that Apple doesn't "get it" for not supporting Visual Studio on the iPad.

3) Not only a bigger screen but a better aspect ratio for this type of device, but for this to be a market success we'll need to see giving up their tablets and notebooks in order to go all in with this device that is neither a good tablet or good notebook. There is no evidence to support that and it will likely never happen no matter how the HW evolves to allow MS to make a great device in terms of HW if it still has the bloated, inefficient Windows OS and apps for it. It's still not a good experience for a tablet and the HW isn't a good experience as a notebook replacement.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #155 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyy View Post

Ugh, back in with the fans. 

Not that I would instantly hate it - Assuming that it is silent and doesn't rock the device itself. But it does mean moving pars and a higher chance of issues and failure, especially on a device with no seated orientation (but maybe so with Windows?) - something I am very happy Apple eliminated from their tablets.

Fans = power consumption.
Ask me about.... The 80's!
Reply
Ask me about.... The 80's!
Reply
post #156 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) SQL Server runs on ARM?


2) What sense does it make to run a server on a confused tablet? You can make the MBA — a comparable example — a server but why would you? This is no different than people running Adobe apps on a netbooks. Sure, it's technically possible but you look foolish when you use it as a talking point.

1)  Of course not - but, you were asking if the surface was really more powerful.  The answer is absolutely yes - the iPad has a great ARM processor - but, it is not comparable to a core i5 in computational power.

2) I'm a developer.  Visual Studio and SQL Server are some of the tools of my trade.  Having them available on my Surface, lets me do a little bit of work when I'm out and about.  For me, the surface can and does act as a laptop replacement and a tablet replacement. 

All, I can say is I'm glad my plans to get the Pro 2 got derailed - since, the Pro 3 is much more to my liking.  The bigger screen will make a huge difference to me. 

Wait 'til they come out with Xcode for iPad.

Running that in the 11-12" iPad model that throws it's screen to the 40" Sharp should be interesting...
Ask me about.... The 80's!
Reply
Ask me about.... The 80's!
Reply
post #157 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporland View Post

Wait 'til they come out with Xcode for iPad.

Running that in the 11-12" iPad model that throws it's screen to the 40" Sharp should be interesting...

But it won't be Visual Studio so the iPad will still be a "toy" that isn't fit for "real" users.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #158 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


But it won't be Visual Studio so the iPad will still be a "toy" that isn't fit for "real" users.

And the Apple camp will just keep saying that everything MS does is crap that's stuck in the 90s. It's an endless cycle of hate.

post #159 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezhik View Post

And the Apple camp will just keep saying that everything MS does is crap that's stuck in the 90s. It's an endless cycle of hate.

What camp does that make me when I say MS's developer documentation is as far from Apple's as Apple's is from Android's?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #160 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


What camp does that make me when I say MS's developer documentation is as far from Apple's as Apple's is from Android's?

No idea. People should pick their own camps! Best one is the "all-platforms-have-their-ups-and-downs-and-people-should-use-what-they-like" camp.


Edited by Ezhik - 5/21/14 at 2:32pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Microsoft unveils $799 Surface Pro 3, calls it 'the tablet that can replace your laptop'