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Microsoft unveils $799 Surface Pro 3, calls it 'the tablet that can replace your laptop' - Page 5

post #161 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) I clearly asked about usability since iOS is much more efficient of an OS as well as being deigned for the HW just as their apps are more efficient and designed for the HW, which is not the case with Windows or its apps. Using SQL Server not only makes no sense in that discussion but hurts any argument you may have. It's like saying I can run Xcode on an 11" MBA with a Core-i5 processor. It's technically accurate but it's a horrible experience.

2) You're a developer that uses Visual Studio so neither iOS nor Mac OS X would work for you so, again, even considering an iPad makes zero sense for this false comparison. No one is saying that weird use case isn't valid, but don't try to make a case that this is some norm and that Apple doesn't "get it" for not supporting Visual Studio on the iPad.

3) Not only a bigger screen but a better aspect ratio for this type of device, but for this to be a market success we'll need to see giving up their tablets and notebooks in order to go all in with this device that is neither a good tablet or good notebook. There is no evidence to support that and it will likely never happen no matter how the HW evolves to allow MS to make a great device in terms of HW if it still has the bloated, inefficient Windows OS and apps for it. It's still not a good experience for a tablet and the HW isn't a good experience as a notebook replacement.

 

1)  You have no idea what your talking about...  VS and SQL Server perform quite well on my Surface with an i5 processor.  Would I deploy such a thing to production?  No.  But, it is perfectly usable and adequate for development - which is what I use it for.   If XCode can't run on an i5 than that must be one sucky tool. 

 

You didn't say anything about usability - you simply asked if the hardware was really more powerful. Not only is it more powerful, you can do a lot more with it.  The iPad is a great tablet.  I have nothing against it or Apple - but, it has lots of limitations that don't exist with something like a surface pro.   If your fine with that, I'm happy for you - it's all about what fits your needs.

 

2)  I never said anything about apple supporting VS or SQL Server - I never would expect such a thing.  Why are you twisting things here?  You asked if the surface was really more powerful...  My use case was simply to illustrate that is the case.  Or do you think it would be possible to write applications that are resource and as processor intensive as these and have them run well on an iPad? 

 

3)  You talk about it not being good at being a tablet or a notebook - yet, you likely have never even touched a surface of any variety.  I love my pro.  I use it as a tablet and a notebook all the time.  In fact, I find it way more convenient than my laptop - which I almost never touch anymore since I got it.   It's way more portable than the laptop and just as powerful - there's nothing I can do on my laptop that I can't do on my surface.  The trade off with the pro (first gen) is that it is heavier than an ios or android tablet - but, if find the kick stand really makes up for that.  When I'm on the couch or lazing around, I can just fold back the cover and use it as a base for the kickstand and then set it in my lap, put it on my chest if I'm laying down, or whatever.   There are always tradeoffs with technology products, and so yes there are some downsides to the pro - but, the upsides for me more than make up for those downsides.  An ipad for me at this point would just be redundant - and a waste of money as it would just sit unused in a drawer somewhere, since it doesn't even have a really good web browser.

post #162 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbi View Post

1)  You have no idea what your talking about...  VS and SQL Server perform quite well on my Surface with an i5 processor.  Would I deploy such a thing to production?  No.  But, it is perfectly usable and adequate for development - which is what I use it for.   If XCode can't run on an i5 than that must be one sucky tool. 

You didn't say anything about usability - you simply asked if the hardware was really more powerful. Not only is it more powerful, you can do a lot more with it.  The iPad is a great tablet.  I have nothing against it or Apple - but, it has lots of limitations that don't exist with something like a surface pro.   If your fine with that, I'm happy for you - it's all about what fits your needs.

2)  I never said anything about apple supporting VS or SQL Server - I never would expect such a thing.  Why are you twisting things here?  You asked if the surface was really more powerful...  My use case was simply to illustrate that is the case.  Or do you think it would be possible to write applications that are resource and as processor intensive as these and have them run well on an iPad? 

3)  You talk about it not being good at being a tablet or a notebook - yet, you likely have never even touched a surface of any variety.  I love my pro.  I use it as a tablet and a notebook all the time.  In fact, I find it way more convenient than my laptop - which I almost never touch anymore since I got it.   It's way more portable than the laptop and just as powerful - there's nothing I can do on my laptop that I can't do on my surface.  The trade off with the pro (first gen) is that it is heavier than an ios or android tablet - but, if find the kick stand really makes up for that.  When I'm on the couch or lazing around, I can just fold back the cover and use it as a base for the kickstand and then set it in my lap, put it on my chest if I'm laying down, or whatever.   There are always tradeoffs with technology products, and so yes there are some downsides to the pro - but, the upsides for me more than make up for those downsides.  An ipad for me at this point would just be redundant - and a waste of money as it would just sit unused in a drawer somewhere, since it doesn't even have a really good web browser.

I asked a fairly simple question and you've done everything but actually answer it. Let me try to make it even easier for you. Lets say you have Android running on an ARM-based tablet with a 1.8Ghz processor and you have an iPad with iOS and its 1.5GHz processor. The 1.8GHz processor is faster than the 1.5GHz processor and your claim is that the OS and apps have nothing to do with the performance and usability the user experiences (as noted by your continued lack of using an example that is comparable to the iPad) so your repeated claim is that the Android-based tablet is better based on on processor alone. If you still don't see a problem with your position then you need to reevaluate a lot of choices you've made, starting with why you're foolishly using Visual Studio as an example.

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post #163 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I asked a fairly simple question and you've done everything but actually answer it. Let me try to make it even easier for you. Lets say you have Android running on an ARM-based tablet with a 1.8Ghz processor and you have an iPad with iOS and its 1.5GHz processor. The 1.8GHz processor is faster than the 1.5GHz processor and your claim is that the OS and apps have nothing to do with the performance and usability the user experiences (as noted by your continued lack of using an example that is comparable to the iPad) so your repeated claim is that the Android-based tablet is better based on on processor alone. If you still don't see a problem with your position then you need to reevaluate a lot of choices you've made, starting with why you're foolishly using Visual Studio as an example.

 

 

Your point simply makes no sense actually.  You can't compare iOS that only runs on an ARM processor - which are inherently computationally weaker than Intel processors (a tradeoff for many mobile devices that makes sense due to power usage) - to Windows 8 Professional.  They are simply not in the same category - on an OS level that would be like comparing a smart car to a Ferrari. 

 

The android to ios comparison is fair and an OSX to Windows comparison would be fair. 

post #164 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbi View Post


Your point simply makes no sense actually.  You can't compare iOS that only runs on an ARM processor - which are inherently computationally weaker than Intel processors (a tradeoff for many mobile devices that makes sense due to power usage) - to Windows 8 Professional.  They are simply not in the same category - on an OS level that would be like comparing a smart car to a Ferrari. 

The android to ios comparison is fair and an OSX to Windows comparison would be fair. 

My point makes perfect sense but you've got your head so far up MS' ass that you won't even consider how disparate OSes deal with code across systems. The user, something Visual Studio developers apparently don't care about, cares how long an app takes to open and how long it takes to complete a task. If a complete system is better designed on another platform it will pull users away from a more archaic one (even if it runs on much faster HW). This is why the iPhone and iPad are the success they are, not in spite of.

Here are some examples: If I want to set a calendar event or use my iPhone or iPad an use Siri to do this for me. It takes about 5 seconds to complete, just on my 15" MBP with the fastest processor, 16GB DDR3 RAM, and a very fast PCIe SSD it takes longer. Since there is no Siri on my MBP I need to enter my password from the locked device, move the a the Calendar app, input the correct date, add an event, set the correct time and save it. It probably would take 90 to 120 seconds for that same task. How can that be if the HW is so much faster? The answer to any reasonable person is the task is more streamlined on the other devices.

Now Siri does Apple's backend servers which you might claim is cheating for some inexplicable reason so we can use another example for weather or stocks. I'll even let you have those webpages bookmarked for this example. This still takes a lot less for the user to complete that task on a locked iPhone or iPad than on a Mac or WinPC device. You then move to doing a quick edit of a iPhoto or iMovie on your iPhone or iPad compared to doing it on a Mac and the time difference may shorten for any processing involved for the new project being created but unless it's huge project that requires a "truck" these handheld devices are likely going to win for a quick upload to Facebook or Instagram.

There are over 300K iPad apps that are designed to work on it and that are easier and better to access and use than on a Mac or WinPC.This is why the iPad is replacing WinPC users and why dinosaurs like you can't understand that Visual Studio is not a valid argument as to why the iPad sucks and why everyone should buy a fucking Surface Pro. It's compromises on the tablet and notebook with nothing being made a better UX as a result.

So why don't you give me an example of an actual cross-platform app that isn't a better UX on the iPad and that is better served by being on the Surface Pro as opposed to an Ultrabook.

PS: If you want to continue saying stupid shit like "comparing a smart car to a Ferrari" then you need to take your own advice and stop trying to compare the Surface Pro to the iPad.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #165 of 183

So the argument against Windows 8.1 tablets is the lack of great tablet optimized apps, and that's because the best app developers prioritize iOS. Sounds very circular.

post #166 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceek74 View Post
 

Praying it still comes with the kickstand...checking...YUP!  Awesome!  Good to go now.  Maybe I can develop some cargo pants that have a built-in shelf on the front of the pant legs.  /s

LOL.  This will be Microsoft's segue into accessories.  Next thing you know, Microsoft will be merging with Levi Strauss to get their awesome design team from the 1990s.   

post #167 of 183

If Microsoft wants to do hardware, I would like to see them do a PC. A really top quality one with all the best components, and fully tested/guaranteed compatible with Windows.

post #168 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Nice improvement but the main presenter came across so douchie. His speak would have been better for a late night infomercial convincing the sleep deprived elderly to part with their money.

For my sins, I watched the whole hour-long webcast. 

 

It was way too long; pretty much a monologue from Panay. I daresay he's a nice guy away from work, but he was hard to watch for so long. I don't remember seeing him smile once; his whole demeanour was really off-putting. I found that his excessive nonchalance, which he was hoping to convey as confidence, came over as cynicism. He looked Beaten-down and weary of the world.

 

As to the Surface itself: I don't see it catching on. The keyboard looks so awkward, however much they may have improved it from the previous iteration. Panay made an early reference to the refrigerator/toaster quote, as in - Microsoft are not doing it. And yet, that's exactly what it is. Much too heavy as a tablet, and much more of a hassle to use as a laptop than a MacBook Air, which most of the journalists were using (or Pros).

 

There is no Office for the tablet version! The Photoshop demo was embarrassing; basically, it was Panay doodling a childlike squiggle on the screen with a stylus! 

 

It has a fan, a stylus and a USB port.

 

Apple has fans and style. No USB required.


Edited by Benjamin Frost - 5/24/14 at 10:39am
iPad a Dream.
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iPad a Dream.
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post #169 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post
 

Could this be any uglier?

It looks like an early prototype for a laptop, before they'd figured out how to make a hinge to connect the keyboard.

iPad a Dream.
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iPad a Dream.
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post #170 of 183
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Originally Posted by appleempl View Post
 

I sure wish Apple would put an SD card slot in the iPads.

Use Photostream or buy the adaptor.

iPad a Dream.
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iPad a Dream.
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post #171 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezhik View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


What camp does that make me when I say MS's developer documentation is as far from Apple's as Apple's is from Android's?

No idea. People should pick their own camps! Best one is the "all-platforms-have-their-ups-and-downs-and-people-should-use-what-they-like" camp.

You're right. Apple has its ups and Android and Microsoft its downs. Linux is for penguins.

iPad a Dream.
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iPad a Dream.
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post #172 of 183
Did you take a look at the final response to this discussion?
post #173 of 183
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
Linux is for penguins.

 

I forget his name, but this little guy is straight from my LC 575’s install of QuickTime.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #174 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post
 

 

If that's what you discovered why would you find it to be "an extremely capable device"? Don't make excuses. If it sucks a tablet and sucks a laptop it sucks. Period.

I'm not making excuses! I said it sucks as a tablet and it sucks as a laptop, and I never use it. It is, however, capable. It has a powerful core i5 processor, it's fast, it can run Windows software well. I suppose someone with good eyesight, tiny fingers and a higher tolerance threshold for Windows than mine would enjoy using it. But, like I said, it sucks. Do you always yell at people you agree with? Sheesh!

post #175 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post
 

Could this be any uglier?

Did you ever see the cartoon "Cow & Chicken"? The Surface always reminds me of Cousin Boneless.

post #176 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul94544 View Post
 

I think the question is related to why would you need an SD adapter in the first place? I.e. what possible need do you have for such an archaic thing?

I prefer to put the SD card in directly, because its faster than USB, even with a USB 3.0 enabled camera. But lets face it, most cameras sport a slow USB 2.0 port and when you're like me and have to transfer a full 32GB SD card you don't want it to take 3 to 4 hours… 32GB directly in the SD card slot on a MacBook Pro takes under 35 minutes.

post #177 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknwntrr View Post

I prefer to put the SD card in directly, because its faster than USB...

How the hell is an SD card faster than 400 Mibps? Even the UHS Speed Class 3 (U3) cards are only 30MiBps.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

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post #178 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


How the hell is an SD card faster than 400 Mibps? Even the UHS Speed Class 3 (U3) cards are only 30MiBps.

The cameras are the problem, not the USB connection. Its just faster with the card in the notebook than over USB. Ask a technician why. Canon rebel t3i (= 600D), MacBook Pro Retina 2012 (USB 3.0). And I've compared it to normal compact cameras, its so bad, I can go make home made pizza until its done.

 

Edit 5/31/14: I had an idea why. The SD card in the camera limits it to max 30MB/s, the USB connection adds an additional component in the mix that slows it down, despite USB 2.0 at 480Mbps (signaling but bus constrained to 280Mbps data = 35MB/s) being faster. Its just another middle-man talking instead of the card directly talking to the Mac at its optimal speed. Consider this: SD Card -> Camera -> USB Controller in Camera -> USB Controller in Mac -> Cache vs. SD-Card Slot in Mac -> Cache.


Edited by unknwntrr - 5/31/14 at 4:54am
post #179 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Now Siri does Apple's backend servers which you might claim is cheating for some inexplicable reason so we can use another example for weather or stocks.

 

Not really a Surface Pro vs iPad discussion, however Cortana in WP 8.1 does this as well. (Backends her notebook to Bing and Windows 8.1).

 

As stated in earlier post of mine, All kinds of tech live in my house (iPad2, iPad mini, Surface RT, Lumia 1020, Droid X, and the list goes on..) and certain things are right for the job. My iPad mini stays by my couch, and it's usually what I am holding in the evening while watching TV. The Surface goes to work and school with me. the Lumia is always in my pocket and the Droid X is what I use as a ginua pig to try neat geeky stuff with. Not trying to be a peacemaker, I love heated discussions, because passionate people bring out the strongest facts. But in the end, choices are a good thing. As much as there are cons on this particular forum (this is AI) for all things Microsoft, it does make you wish for things you had (if Apple can put a SIM slot on an iPad, how much harder would it be to slip a micro SD?  I'll pay ya the extra $30 to integrate it rather than add on an ugly adapter).

So keep the fires going, iFans and haters.. I'm eating popcorn, enjoying the show!

post #180 of 183

The surface was designed with someone else in mind as its user than most amateur or professional users. The Surface is a great device if you just want one ultra mobile device to do everything with. No Notebook, no Tablet, just one thing you can use at anytime anywhere. Its great if you use your PC to do eMails, browse the web and occasionally do some office work on it. If you want to do more, like lets say produce content in film, photography, sound or text you won't use a surface anyway. You'll use a Mac, and maybe buy an iPad for doing some little things on the go like checking eMails, browsing the web and watching a Youtube movie.

 

The only thing totally untouched by this notebook vs. surface discussion is your phone. It'll still be there and since it will always be there and always have internet it will always be the one and only device you pick up first when you want to read an eMail on the go or look at Wikipedia etc. I noticed I even use the iPhone to look at Twitter while I hold my iPad in the other hand… could be the useless iPad app though.

post #181 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

If the pen really solves the age-old parallax issue, I'll be infinitely impressed.

In fact they did.  Let's all be impressed together!

post #182 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaba View Post

All they need is a decent OS. They need to focus on this as running 2 separate operating systems on 1 device is totally counter intuitive.

 

There's only one OS on the device - Windows 8 (that's the full OS, not RT).  It's just a very powerful and versatile OS that allows the user to run in what seems like 2 separate operating systems.  It's a marriage of touch and traditional usage which will only get better as Microsoft continue development.  Looking forward to Windows 9.

post #183 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post
 

but it still uses windows... enough said

 

I never feel restricted with what I can run on Windows as the number of available programs are immense.  Unlike on the Mac where quite often I need to boot into Windows to accomplish something.  But it's a compromise I put up with to use a beautiful and well-built machine such as the MB.

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