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Microsoft unveils $799 Surface Pro 3, calls it 'the tablet that can replace your laptop' - Page 3

post #81 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Terrible concept.

If I want a laptop, I'll use my Macbook.

If I want a tablet, I'll use my iPad.

The MS device fails at being a better tablet than an iPad, and it fails at being a better laptop than a Macbook, therefore it is useless.

I think that it's a mistake to try and combine two different categories of devices into one, when the combined result is bad.

I have to disagree! A lot of creatives will be drawn to using Photoshop with a direct on-the-display stylus interaction,

Can't do that on either an Apple Laptop or an Apple Tablet.

I also expect to see CAD and Drafting apps developed to take advantage of this capability!
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post #82 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post



Here ya' go:



Thanks Dick. Now every time I see something like this, I'm going to think of MS and the Surface! :)

post #83 of 183
This is an improved product. The 3:2 aspect ratio is a big improvement for tablet function. The pressure sensitive stylus option is a really good one that Apple has refused to pursue (though one has hopes for a larger iPad Pro). Their comparison with the larger screened MacBook Air will cease to make sense if rumors of a lighter 12 inch Retina Air come true. Apple just dropped the price of non-Retina Airs, perhaps to make room for the new model later this year.
post #84 of 183
How can MS go so lame? They had everything and they still have so much market and resources and they keep going in the wrong direction. No one knows what Surface is regardless of all the marketing MS did. They talked about creating new categories but besides taking the ipad and modifying into a completely useless product have not done anything else. Disappointing...
post #85 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJohnWhorfin View Post

I have a Surface Pro 2 and, while I find it to be an extremely capable device, I never use it. Why? It sucks at being a tablet (too thick and heavy) and it sucks at being a laptop (it won't sit on your lap, and the flap stand is horrid). And Windows 8 makes me want to retch.

But... but... but... does it make you want to toss it while you dance like an idiot???
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #86 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Is there a huge demand for three wheeled vehicles?

Tablets are like motorcycles (2 wheels), and laptops are like cars (four wheels).

What MS has done is blended both and come up with a three wheeled vehicle, that's neither better than a motorcycle or a car, and how many three wheeled vehicles do you see on the road?

There used to be a large market for three-wheeled vehicles. It was a whole category, called "cyclecars". Morgan was just one of the last to enter the market and the only one still around. They eventually went with four wheels, but the three-wheelers were very successful in their day.

There have been various attempts to revive three-wheel cars, but they all have one thing in common: they put the single wheel on the wrong end! This eliminates the ability to have a real steering mechanism, and causes the vehicles to frequently flip under hard cornering. Nowadays with the majority of family cars being front-wheel drive, where the purpose of the rear wheels is strictly to keep the rear bumper from dragging the ground, a single rear wheel would work just fine. (But it would cut into the trunk space.)

The reason I bring up this history is that I think MicroSoft is repeating it. Their attempts to combine tablets and laptops are like most three-wheeled cars for the last century—back asswards. They need something light you can carry with you and use as a tablet, which you can attach something heavier to in order to do more...heavy lifting, if you'll pardon the expression.
post #87 of 183
so...

MS is avoiding direct comparison with the iPad again.

Instead choosing to WEIGH their tablet against Apple's laptop.

LOL.

Not much a a weight difference to begin with. Beyond that, if you want a laptop, the screen hinge beats the new kickstand by far and the floppy keyboard is going to be annoying while trying to balance both that AND the kickstands tiny contact area on your lap.

Moral of the story: Get a tablet for tablet use. Get a laptop for laptop use.

MS Surface dilemma still continues. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Meanwhile, iPad has mastered the tablet. And Macbook has mastered the laptop.
post #88 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

There have been various attempts to revive three-wheel cars, but they all have one thing in common: they put the single wheel on the wrong end! ... Nowadays with the majority of family cars being front-wheel drive, where the purpose of the rear wheels is strictly to keep the rear bumper from dragging the ground, a single rear wheel would work just fine. (But it would cut into the trunk space.)
 

 

With all due respect to Mark Messier, Can Am has tried this and it still sucks a$$.

Just say no to MacMall.  They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries.  There are better retailers out there.
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Just say no to MacMall.  They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries.  There are better retailers out there.
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post #89 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Haha. The iPad has been out since 2010. There's always an opportunity but no one is buying that tripe.

Years ago it was predicted that China would become a booming economy , 15 or 20 years later it still wasn't reality and nobody believed it would happen.
But the signs where on the wall and look what's the biggest economy now.
post #90 of 183

Let me reiterate for the doubters, the only defender of Windows on a tablet so far in this thread defended it as "maybe" a niche device for video editing. The Windows standard was XP. IT departments force fed us W7, and nobody wants Windows 8.x for anything. The ABA (Anything But Apple) crowd continues to use Windows only out of spite. PC sales are declining, Mac sales are increasing, and people are doing a lot of what they need to do – even at work – on iPhones and iPads.

 

Never mind about the disparity in apps and the fact that the dogdamn thing is ugly as a mud fence.

post #91 of 183
Well, I know a few tech reviewers who will be happy. I remember a couple of them who decried the iPad's lack of a kickstand as a major flaw (even a "dealbreaker"), so they must really be happy that MS are continuing to include one with the Surface. (To be fair, my mother uses a third party stand to read books on her iPad, because she has problems holding anything for long periods. We got it for her for Christmas for about $30. She still wouldn't switch to a Surface.)

I still really don't think MS gets tablets yet. Part of this is clear from their approach of "One OS to rule them all", which I kind of hoped would go away after the failure of the original Surface and the departure of Ballmer. For most people, the use cases for a tablet and a PC are different, and the different OSes reflect that. This is why Apple won't merge MacOS and iOS, at least not for a very long time yet, and why Google developed ChromeOS separately from Android. Microsoft, however, are still trying to get everyone to run Windows on everything, which leaves them with a UI that is not quite optimised for either a tablet or a PC (and is downright unusable on a server).
post #92 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

But can you dance with the thing? That's what I want to know!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemE View Post

any comment on run time? These things need to run for at least 8 hours, preferably 10!

I wondered that myself when they weighed this turd against a MBA with 12 hours of battery support. Of course if it has a smaller battery and is pushing a fan when it's on, then it really isn't as mobile as either a MBA or a iPad. As long as the Surface is powering a fan motor it might as well be spinning a hard disk too...

My thinking is that Apple started with a clean slate and developed the iPad (and iPhone) to include as few compromises as possible. Microsoft developed the poorly thought out Surface and is now trying to work some of the bad design issues out of it.

In a few years or so the Surface could become a serious competitor to the 2013 iPad. However, that assumes Apple will not keep raising the bar, leaving Microsoft continuously chasing behind. Samsung has already staked out their place right behind Apple, so....
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #93 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorpit View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

There have been various attempts to revive three-wheel cars, but they all have one thing in common: they put the single wheel on the wrong end! ... Nowadays with the majority of family cars being front-wheel drive, where the purpose of the rear wheels is strictly to keep the rear bumper from dragging the ground, a single rear wheel would work just fine. (But it would cut into the trunk space.)

 

With all due respect to Mark Messier, Can Am has tried this and it still sucks a$$.

Ha, Ha! Touché. But for racing all bets are off. They've tried six wheels too, remember.
post #94 of 183

You do have to wonder that although Microsoft got it horribly wrong to begin with, they might slowly be getting there.

 

Surfaces are selling better than ever. Still not great at all. But it is slowly improving.

 

As is the device itself. The Surface is finding some really good niche uses. They have been looking at doing some interesting audio editing stuff and now with this new version it could be a great device for creatives and Photoshop use. It's still far yet from a mainstream device.

 

Windows 8 has been out for awhile now and with newer versions getting ever closer, this could be the next big jump the surface makes. With the Hardware getting better, if they fix the software, the next release or two they might actually be onto a real winner.

 

Gotta hand it to Microsoft to sticking to there plan and refining it. The next couple of years will be make or break for this device... interesting to see where it goes! I admit it's more likely to fail than not, but with the right refinements Microsoft may end up hitting the jackpot after all.

post #95 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowitall View Post


Years ago it was predicted that China would become a booming economy; 15 or 20 years later it still wasn't reality and nobody believed it would happen.
But the signs were on the wall and look what's the biggest economy now.

 

Someday it will probably be possible to make a good combination laptop and tablet, but that doesn't make it smart to do it today.  

post #96 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post


Ha, Ha! Touché. But for racing all bets are off. They've tried six wheels too, remember.

I don't remember them when they were running, I was only six at the time.  Ironically I bought my son a Matchbox version not too long ago.  :D

Just say no to MacMall.  They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries.  There are better retailers out there.
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Just say no to MacMall.  They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries.  There are better retailers out there.
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post #97 of 183
I know... Let's do a lame comparison between a tablet and erm... a... laptop and compare the weight. I wonder which one will be the lightest?
post #98 of 183

The Surface Pro 3 genuinely seems like a nice piece of hardware. An i7 processor in a package the size of the original iPad is a fantastic achievements.

 

However, it seems like Microsoft's marketing team isn't quite as on the ball...

 

Oops. :lol:

post #99 of 183

I watched part of the video, got bored with their defensiveness.  I do agree that they are making improvements but a 25% improvement on the previous model's runtime means nothing if we are in the 4 hour range.  It's 10-12 hours or bust in my book.

 

I love my Windows PC and Win7, they just took such a wrong turn with Win8 and they are too obtuse, or arrogant,  or both to back away from it and they will pay the price. Too bad, they actually make me wish them ill will.

post #100 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSince86 View Post

Okay, so now take your thumb off the MacBook Air side of the scale.

In reality, this is the latest Windows world incarnation of a netbook, but too cumbersome to use on your lap to be a laptop. Windows still requires a keyboard to be really usable. And they add a stylus. This is not a product which was designed to be a tablet. The iPad was.

As Tim Cook said, "Our competition is different - they're confused. They chased after netbooks. Now they're trying to make PCs into tablets and tablets into PCs. Who knows what they will do next?"

I don't think you have used recent Windows tablet.

I'm using my ThinkPad Tablet 2 most of the time without physical keyboard, though I do have Lenovo's keyboard for this unit, and it is quite good quality keyboard. Granted, I'm using it mostly in Metro mode, and that GUI works great without physical keyboard. Browsing, email, all sort of media, FB, touch games (Birds and such) all work really nice, and that covers majority of my tablet needs. I turn my keyboard on only when I want do do something in Office or want to write really long email.

By the way, my tablet is running 2C Atom and is netbook replacement, kind of. It is my travel machine, and as such it can replace PC for me... short of desktop games (less important on travels) and Lightroom... but it sits at around 590g - not bad for device released 18 months ago - and goes for 8 hours on single charge (10 according to Lenovo, a bit optimistic), and no fans.

Surface 3 is heavier and does have fan, but it also have Ultrabook hardware inside; it is way above netbook. This machine would have no issue with Lightroom and older desktop games (Left 4 Dead and such) while still being usable as tablet, albeit with weight penalty. I travel overseas relatively often, so idea of one device for both media consummation and more serious work sounds very attractive. To cover all my needs 100%, I'd have to travel with quite a few gadgets - phone, tablet, reader, laptop, camera or two... so reducing that number always feel like a good idea.

Personally, will keep an eye on it.
post #101 of 183
Awesome! I hope someone here gets one. For myself, I'll pass, my iPad and MBA serve every purpose of this thing just fine.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #102 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

The Surface Pro 3 genuinely seems like a nice piece of hardware. An i7 processor in a package the size of the original iPad is a fantastic achievements.

However, it seems like Microsoft's marketing team isn't quite as on the ball...



Oops. lol.gif

Holy Crap! So the detachable keyboard is an advantage for the Surface—no mention of the fact you have to pay extra for it—but on the MacBook Pro it's "Non-detachable keyboard available", making it sound like it's an extra-cost option! I knew Micro$haft were lying sons-of-bitches, but seriously?
post #103 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post
 

Could this be any uglier?

 

Yes... just turn it on!

 

post #104 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemE View Post

I watched part of the video, got bored with their defensiveness.  I do agree that they are making improvements but a 25% improvement on the previous model's runtime means nothing if we are in the 4 hour range.  It's 10-12 hours or bust in my book.

I love my Windows PC and Win7, they just took such a wrong turn with Win8 and they are too obtuse, or arrogant,  or both to back away from it and they will pay the price. Too bad, they actually make me wish them ill will.

They are backing away, but a bit too slowly for most people taste. Next Windows (or next update for Windows 8.1) will return full desktop with updated start menu, and Metro apps running windowed on desktop. Metro GUI will also be there for people who want to use it (and it actually works great on 10" tablets.

25% battery improvement over Surface 2 would actually be nice, though I'm doubtful they are getting that much. If they are, however... The Verge's battery test on Surface Pro 2, after last firmware update, gave them 8 hours, 51minutes on Surface Pro 2. Granted, it is probably light workout test (browsing and such), but result is still decent. 25% over that would put Surface Pro 3 in 10 hours zone easily... again, if they are getting 25% improvement.
post #105 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Holy Crap! So the detachable keyboard is an advantage for the Surface—no mention of the fact you have to pay extra for it—but on the MacBook Pro it's "Non-detachable keyboard available", making it sound like it's an extra-cost option! I knew Micro$haft were lying sons-of-bitches, but seriously?
Can I sue Apple for not giving me the tick box where I could NOT get this non detachable keyboard?

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #106 of 183
Well most of the crowd was using MacBooks for a reason. Thats because they work. The rt doesn't have a nice design. It also doesn't have a wide variety of apps. The design isn't any were as beautiful as the iPad Air's or MacBook Air's. What about battery life? Camera, Music, Anti virus, the services you get with Apple are much more and much better. The pen wasn't to bad, but in a better track pad would be good. I find a MacBooks trackpad works a lot better that a laptop that's running windows. Also the keyboard can be a pain. What about splitting it? Free app of the week?
Edited by GeorgeiP5 - 5/20/14 at 3:09pm
post #107 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Holy Crap! So the detachable keyboard is an advantage for the Surface—no mention of the fact you have to pay extra for it—but on the MacBook Pro it's "Non-detachable keyboard available", making it sound like it's an extra-cost option! I knew Micro$haft were lying sons-of-bitches, but seriously?
Can I sue Apple for not giving me the tick box where I could NOT get this non detachable keyboard?

They've been sued for stupider things that that, so I say have at it! If that doesn't work, you can sue Microsoft for inspiring the expectation in you.

ETA: Be sure and save a screencap of that ad—things like that have a way of disappearing down the memory hole.
post #108 of 183
Apple and Google already ran away with this market. The only way MS can be relevant is if they change the game completely. Which just isn't - and never was - in their DNA.

Nothing to really see here.
Edited by Quadra 610 - 5/20/14 at 4:07pm
post #109 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


I have to disagree! A lot of creatives will be drawn to using Photoshop with a direct on-the-display stylus interaction,

Can't do that on either an Apple Laptop or an Apple Tablet.

I also expect to see CAD and Drafting apps developed to take advantage of this capability!

 

After watching one of the videos at The Verge, I'm interested in the sensitivity of the pen, but I'd like to see a more capable person demo it using Photoshop. With a more complex graphics/paint program, the performance probably takes a significant hit.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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GOA

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post #110 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anome View Post

... For most people, the use cases for a tablet and a PC are different, and the different OSes reflect that. This is why Apple won't merge MacOS and iOS, at least not for a very long time yet, and why Google developed ChromeOS separately from Android. Microsoft, however, are still trying to get everyone to run Windows on everything, which leaves them with a UI that is not quite optimised for either a tablet or a PC (and is downright unusable on a server).

The difference between touch and mouse centric input is overblown.
Apps must be adapted to support touch in a meaningful way and that will take time (and some thinking), the OS must facilitate like for example a virtual keyboard that's transparent so you can see your work while you type and still have all the screen estate (I won't patent the idea so anyone can use it freely) and a windowing system that is easy to use with touch. No big deal, just a lot of work.
Remember that most of the reasons iOS is different have to with limited hardware, and this is rapidly changing. Current ARM CPU/GPU combinations are as powerful as desktop systems a few years ago and screen resolution is already better than a MacBook Air. Screen size and storage are lacking, but that will change soon.
post #111 of 183

With it's attached keyboard, the SP 3 is a tiny bit heavier than an 11" air.

post #112 of 183
I think the biggest most hilarious aspect to this presentation was that it was all about the Macbook Air!

Somewhere Johnny Ive is smiling.
Tim Cook is preparing another "the competition is confused" sign.
post #113 of 183

nine hours of battery life- but that is just for web browsing, right?  

I would like to know how much battery life there is when viewing content (movies), using it's own power gobbling MS Office, and listening to music.

post #114 of 183

Microsoft still haven't figured out that their Surface needs to be better than an Apple but as cheap as Android.   $799 for the entry price i3 64 GB but you really only get 28 GB useable space compared to $599 for a 32 GB iPad Air.   They are way over priced by $200 dollars on the entry model.

 

I do need Windows for work and was thinking about getting it, but then remembered on could always use bootcamp on a macbook to install Windows (hopefully 7 Pro).

post #115 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemE View Post

any comment on run time? These things need to run for at least 8 hours, preferably 10!

Not that I've seen but I did notice it's the same capacity battery with a larger 12" display with a more square aspect ratio which also adds to the backlight area, as well as a higher pixel display. Hopefully they were able to reduce power costs elsewhere, but I'd be surprised if they made any gains over the Surface Pro 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revenant View Post

nine hours of battery life- but that is just for web browsing, right?  
I would like to know how much battery life there is when viewing content (movies), using it's own power gobbling MS Office, and listening to music.

If last year's number are anything to go by I'd say it's about 8 hours of video playback if in fact it can get 9 hours of web usage.

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post #116 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogJack View Post

With it's attached keyboard, the SP 3 is a tiny bit heavier than an 11" air.

Is it that heavy of a keyboard to put it above the 11.6" MBA's 2.38 pounds? Doesn't that men the keyboard is more than a half a pound?

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post #117 of 183
All their comparisons were based on Apple's iPad and MacBook Air leading one to believe that they are terrified of Apple products. Proof that Apple products are the standard and benchmark.
post #118 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowitall View Post

The difference between touch and mouse centric input is overblown.
Apps must be adapted to support touch in a meaningful way and that will take time (and some thinking), the OS must facilitate like for example a virtual keyboard that's transparent so you can see your work while you type and still have all the screen estate (I won't patent the idea so anyone can use it freely) and a windowing system that is easy to use with touch. No big deal, just a lot of work.
Remember that most of the reasons iOS is different have to with limited hardware, and this is rapidly changing. Current ARM CPU/GPU combinations are as powerful as desktop systems a few years ago and screen resolution is already better than a MacBook Air. Screen size and storage are lacking, but that will change soon.
I made no claims about differences between touch and mouse-centric input. I mentioned the use cases. Tablets and PCs are used in different ways for different things. These differences in use necessitate differences in the UI and, to an increasingly lesser extent, the hardware.

Microsoft's problem is that they want the Surface to be all things to all people. That means trying to be a tablet and a PC, and not really succeeding at either.
post #119 of 183
It's still crippled by being tied to Windows 8 and a half baked app ecosystem. I've yet to find a lightweight Windows PC at any price that comes remotely close to the MacBook Air keyboard & trackpad combination.

C'mon Microsoft, make up your mind. Are you going to build a world class tablet with a world class tablet operation system and user experience - or are you going to build a world class notebook with a world class notebook operating system and user experience? Pick one, or pick both as separately optimized products. The Great Compromise of Windows 8 does nothing exceptionally well. It's the El Camino of the computing world, sucks as a car and sucks as a truck.

Windows 8 - It's a cuck.
post #120 of 183
When tablets exploded we found out that most people where using their laptops for more consumption than productivity. Browsing the web, watching videos, Facebook, email, etc. Microsoft has basically created a laptop that is just an okay tablet experience. Apple should do the opposite. They should double down on making the best tablet experience with enough productivity baked in that people can replace their laptops but with a device that is 1 pound and doesn't require a fan. Apple should double down on making the best mainstream consumer product and let Microsoft Surface be relegated to niche status.

Incidentally go to any tech website tonight and people are basically wetting themselves over this device. How come this enthusiasm never actually shows up in sales figures? If this device was actually selling well Microsoft wouldn't be losing money on it and they would announce sales figures.
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