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MacWorld in New York - 2002 is Apple's year - Page 6

post #201 of 620
Well, considering that the warning was for the quarter that ends in June, I'd have to say that this really has no insight what-so-ever to MWNY releases.

Even the "we've got great stuff in the pipeline" quote was standard marketing PR and contains no useful information.
post #202 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:
<strong>

That was from MacCentral.

I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.

I dunno... just looking for a connection.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm an optimist, but I read it as positive. It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...

We could get:

MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX



All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.

[ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: Blackcat ]</p>
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post #203 of 620
[QUOTE]Originally posted by THT:

<strong>It doesn't make sense for APUs to be connected by the Ocean fabric. APUs have to be directly connected to the e500's dispatch unit, completion unit and registers. So they must be inside the e500 core itself.</strong>

I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.

<strong>The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.</strong>

My documents do not mention processors with multiple e500 cores, but I don't doubt that there are plans for a design using more than one core. Unfortunately I cannot tell how they could be connected.

But I have some further information that may be interesting:

- I have reviewed the e500 core design documentation (well, in my docs it is not described as 'e500', the docs are older and the 'e500' name might not yet have existed at that time, but I can assure that it is what is now called 'e500'), and I must say that it is pretty different from the core used by any 74xx CPU. It offers about the same performance per clock cycle, but with a less complex design - that means that the e500 is much more efficient than current cores. I must say that I would have preferred a design with more execution units and superior performance, I fear that the e500 as described in my docs will not be able to compete with Opterons or other high performance designs.

- The SIMD APU described by Motorola is not the Altivec APU that will be used in the desktop G5, it is a much simpler unit that will probably only offer basic math operations.

- I got some further information about a very interesting ASIC that might be used in future PowerMacs, I will post information about this very soon.
post #204 of 620
Most of us caught the gaping hole in the XServe: The link between memory and the processor was still 133mhz.
What if Apple left off the new connection from the XServer intro?
If the XServe still is not shipping in July, it may be that Apple has implemented a fast memory-to-processor scheme and did not want to let the cat out of the bag until MWNY.
This way they get to launch XServe, get a few units sold, get the hype and all of the one-product launch AND get to say, come mid-July, "Purchasers actually get a better deal than they thought - the fast memory-processor link."

Perhaps the "stop-gap" was to intro the server product with the 133 mhz memory-processor bus - but never ship it that way.

Call me stupid....
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post #205 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by haderach:
<strong>

I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.

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post #206 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:
<strong>That was from MacCentral.

I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.

I dunno... just looking for a connection.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It is really just Apple confirming that the LCD iMacs sales have flattened off faster than expected in this past quarter.

I doubt most analysts will care too much though as it was fairly common knowledge. It's worth noting that Apple deliberately announced eMacs for everyone ahead of this. That will reassure markets they are going insert something at lower price points until they can lower prices back down and they aren't completely ignoring low cost consumer options.
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post #207 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by mmicist:
<strong>There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pity -- one would have hoped they would have addressed these fundamental issues of core design when planning how to make the thing support APUs. Ah well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the new core and rely on the 7455's in the meantime.
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post #208 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by Blackcat:
<strong>All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.

CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.

Now, I've held that Apple no longer wants to use the expos to focus on consumer-level product, but a sufficient architecture change to the pro line (suggesting a later trickle-down to the consumer line) might work as well.

Now, my opinion is that the G4 iMac clearly points to a sufficient distinguishing feature in the pro line arriving soon (something other than pure MHz) but at the same time, I'm not overly optimistic regarding G5 or big MHz gains just yet.

In other words, I think people will be disappointed that the improvements aren't 'dramatic' enough, though they probably will be noticeable to Apple's pro customers. I think Apple scooping up DV products foretells dramatic stuff a year from now or so, but not now - the software isn't ready and a big hardware rollout would be wasted.
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post #209 of 620
[quote] Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.
<hr></blockquote>

Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious.

[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: PipelineStall ]</p>
post #210 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by johnsonwax:
<strong>
CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

[quote]Originally posted by PipelineStall:
<strong>

Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious. </strong><hr></blockquote>

How high are the discounts now?
post #211 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by qazII:
<strong>How high are the discounts now?</strong><hr></blockquote>

About 20%. Pretty standard promo discount. I'm guessing that a heavier discount is indicative of more inventory to move, rather than a more dramatic rev.
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post #212 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by Blackcat:
<strong>

It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...

We could get:

MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why do people always forget about MacExpo Paris in September? I guess we might be getting the GeForce 5 there.
post #213 of 620
they forget about it, because the last one was cancelled because of september 11.

G-News
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post #214 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by RolandG:
<strong>

Why do people always forget about MacExpo Paris in September? I guess we might be getting the GeForce 5 there.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.
post #215 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by olli:
<strong>

Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.</strong><hr></blockquote>

only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ?
post #216 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>

only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ? </strong><hr></blockquote>

No , that was not my intention .
I am a rational person , I just tell the truth. I should've emphasized MOST . That most certainly does NOT mean ALL. I registered because my iMac rev a is getting old , and I wanna buy a new mac after MW expo.

PS: been following this forums for 3 years now, its about time I register no?
please don't flame me.
post #217 of 620
Too late you worthless piece of s.... No just kinding, I fully agree with you, but just wait till JYD or Applenut see this.....
Idiot, slow down....

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post #218 of 620
What worries me is the other thread about an Apple Camera maybe being released also.
Jobs won't put 2 very big things in one event
(aka G5(or very big powerMac upgrade) and a new device).
So I hope the camera is for later
post #219 of 620
I disagree, I think Jobs likes to have many impressive new thing to promote at an Expo, as ong as they don't detract attention from each other. A camera doesn't detract from a PowerMac, so that would be a better combo than a totally new iMac and totally new PowerMac.

US soccer rules!! (Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)
post #220 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by b8rtm8nn:
<strong>(Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tell them they can go play soccer for their land themselves, if they're not happy with it
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post #221 of 620
<a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm" target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.

at least the bus speed is greatly improved.
pity bout the 85XX ..

c'est la vie
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post #222 of 620
I don't doubt that Dorsal has inside info on chips and motherboards, but I don't think he has enough insight to justify the title of this thread. Let's not forget Seybold and maybe even Siggraph. I don't know if Steve-o would be able to get the attention he wants at Siggraph, but with the amount of Broadcast software their selling and purchasing, it makes sense for them to have a large presence there.

On the other hand maybe it's best for the new hardware to be announced at MWNY and just be shown at Siggraph. Anyway, the point is, we shouldn't be expecting anything in particular at MWNY. There will be other opportunities for any announcement(s) before the end of the summer.
post #223 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by g::masta:
<strong><a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm" target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sounds to me like ChipGeek is just cribbing from AppleInsider.

I'm not worried myself. From what I've read, it seems likely that Apple has a new, faster pro chip almost ready to bring to market. I could care less who builds it really, as long as it's quick and scales well. And anyway, hasn't everyone and his sister on this forum been saying that Apple needs to dump Motorola?
post #224 of 620
[quote] Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify. <hr></blockquote>

This may not be the place for this, but hold on a second pal! Some points of fact:

FACT- The US is currently more engaged in international affairs than any nation on earth.

FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth.

FACT- The US bears a burden on the international stage, that entails complexities that Belgium could never possibly understand.

FACT- Policy is a lot more that fat, boring European men with bad haircuts, sitting around paying lip service to what should be done, and then expecting the US to bail them out when they realize that all they were ever any good at was making chocolate!

So, SHHHHHHHH! <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]</p>
post #225 of 620
....as opposed to all the fat, stupid americans who shoot first anf then dont bother to ask questions later...of course!! <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Idiot, slow down....

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post #226 of 620
I think you mean; Shoot first and ask questions later, no?
post #227 of 620
"FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth."

You sure of that? Or does that just include Bill Gates and Ted Turner? (:

What amazes me is how Europeans complain about America. Europe has done more to screw this world than anybody. The germans were bad in that they killed 6 million in one go (and a whole bunch of gypsies that no one cares about) but the history of Europe is one on genocide. Who killed the native people of the new world? The problems of Asia and Africa lay directly on the feet of England, France and Portugal. America is no saint, and generally we are a dumb nation, but in no way can Europe look down upon us.


And for more Apple stuff, a really dumb question. Does DDR ram in a graphics board help? Why? Why would'nt DDR ram in the X-serve help?
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post #228 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by olli:
<strong>Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.</strong><hr></blockquote>


WORLD CUP BABY! When we oust Brazil for you, you can come back and apologize!

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post #229 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by olli:
[Q]What worries me is the other thread about an Apple Camera maybe being released also.
Jobs won't put 2 very big things in one event
(aka G5(or very big powerMac upgrade) and a new device).
So I hope the camera is for later[/Q]<hr></blockquote>

That's a seriously disturbing thought. What business does Apple have in making a camera? There are many great companies (I doubt I need to name any) that have been making very high quality camera's for 50 years + that I would feel more comfortable buying a camera from.

This is the first time I've heard of this rumor, and I hope it's the ramblings of some idiot that you read, because I would think Apple would be better off using it's resources in other areas that would probably be more profitable to Apple. A (bonehead) move like this does not sound like smart business IMHO.
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post #230 of 620
[quote]"FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth."
You sure of that? Or does that just include Bill Gates and Ted Turner? (:
<hr></blockquote>


Absolutely positive! Look into international aid statistics, both through non profits, the UN, and every other international aid channel, the US has eclipsed every other country for the past 20 years. Both in total $$, and as a percent of GDP. We are, and have been the most generous nation on the planet.

As for this moron, the typical blanket statement "Um, well the US shoots first and asks questions later" is the same crap that has been spouted for years to try to rationalize the pathetic inertia of European policies.
post #231 of 620
[quote]
FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth
<hr></blockquote>

important point :
USA give very small international aid relative to their PIB.... OK the absolute value is superior ;-)
look at less rich countries like northern european country who concede more in relative figures !
post #232 of 620
Would you people shut your yap about the 1,832nd USA-vs.-Europe thread? Take it to AppleOutsider if you are firmly convinced that a web board about Macintoshes is the ideal place for an inept and fitful discussion about politics.

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post #233 of 620
OK guys, chill.

There are enlightened Americans and enlightened Europeans, and stupid people on both sides of the Atlantic.
Back to the thread...
post #234 of 620
Hey idiots.

Shut up about the USA.

this is Future hardware, remember... you can shoot your mouths off in AppleOutsider.


<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #235 of 620
[quote]an inept and fitful discussion about politics <hr></blockquote>

LOL!! Very good!
post #236 of 620
So let me ask again. Does DDR ram add in a graphics chip? If so, what will DDR ram add to a set up like the X-serve and what could it mean for the new towers coming in July? If it will be just what Moki said and the "Stop gap" system of the X-serve.
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post #237 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by g::masta:
<strong><a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm" target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.

at least the bus speed is greatly improved.
pity bout the 85XX ..

c'est la vie
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>The 8500 was never going to be a desktop chip, it's a chip for the comm and embedded market. The G5 used in Apple's PowerMacs was always going to be the 7500. 74xx = G4, 75xx = G5. 85xx = next gen embedded.
post #238 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>Hey idiots.
Shut up about the USA.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oopsie! Now guys, do what the Administrator is telling you to!

See, that's why it's great from a land so small noone gives a **** about! Slovenia is unlikely to be blamed for any mess, whereas the US is a great target to blame for everything...
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post #239 of 620
I blame Slovenia for the lack of a G5 at the MacWorld/NY expo.
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post #240 of 620
[quote]Originally posted by anand:
<strong>So let me ask again. Does DDR ram add in a graphics chip? If so, what will DDR ram add to a set up like the X-serve and what could it mean for the new towers coming in July? If it will be just what Moki said and the "Stop gap" system of the X-serve.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I assume you are talking about the DDR on the motherboard? Most graphics boards nowadays use DDR for VRAM.

Yes, the extra bandwidth provided by DDR on the motherboard should aid the graphics system since with Quartz Extreme the graphics engine will be reading a lot of data from main memory in order to draw it on the display.

We'll just have to wait and see what July brings.
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