MacWorld in New York - 2002 is Apple's year - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by cinder:
<strong>oh the vaugeness of it all!

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

so torturous</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yes you are quite right, who can call whatever is written wrong with such wide sweeping rumors... better faster... this we already know...

[quote]Originally posted by Shanny:
<strong>

That's just truly f`ucking lame. Lame. Lame. LAME.

What some of you knuckleheads fail to understand..... Grow up. </strong><hr></blockquote>


No comment..... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

They definitely need a catchier name than 3GIO

hypertransport is slightly better.

Either we're all going to be very happy and buying new machines at MWNY, or we'll lose yet anotehr "credible" source of rumors, should Dorsals prediction fail.

It all boils down to less and less points.

G-News

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>Well I'd say that MWNY will be a make or break event for Dorsal's reputation.

I really hope he's right and we see a G4 with a modified FSB scheme or an on-chip memory controller. Only time will tell for sure, but Moki says they are "improving memory bandwidth" as well, so perhaps things aren't completely in the crapper?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Actually... I hope he is dead wrong. Crazy as it might seem I actually have the highest hopes for Apple. Watch the previously refered to MacWorlds did not dissapoint me at all. I always leave the room buzzing with new news for my PC weirdo friends. I quit comparing mac and pc hardware back in the early G3 days. It's pointless. I don't care what kind of P4 or AMD you can build for whatever bucks you have. I'm just happy that my beloved company has something I wish to buy. Without a single exception, not even once, has Apple dissappointed me. They always pioneer professional new products with superior specs, even if it doesn't say "I'm a 2ghz" on the label. Hell... my Blue & White is still kicking booty and running OS X like a champ. Why gripe about a minor spead bump. I will hold my dream of a G5 for macworld, as well as USB 2, Quicktime 6 preview 2, Jaguar, and a new AppleWorks would be nice. Why sweat the minor 1.2 vs 1.5 ghz stuff. They still make the dang coolest computer on earth and no matter what that announce they will be getting my bucks.

2 pts for the real mac-addicts, 0 for those toeing the line with the pc world.

Eat more soup, stay regular, and buy a mac. With that advice you can't go wrong.

Wow Jonathan, it's nice to see a happy AI'er floating around.

My question is why would Apple unveil a new MB and associated tech's when the G5 is so close? Does this mean we may not see a G5 for a year or so?

[quote]I disagree. KimKapSol's steaming pile was short lived, Kormac's went on for months, it got smeared into every crack of AI's UBB and all the noses of those semi-retarded members who lined up for the priveledge of licking the choclate icing from between his cheeks. Truly disgusting, nothing in the history of AI was ever worse than Kormac and his fanatical cult weenies.<hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

That was crude, but possibly the funniest rumor-related commentary I've read all year. Thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
<strong>
Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. More to come. Cache will also be increased on the processor level. Twice what is seen now. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sounds like it *could* be Super G4 board moki desribed (and claimed was delayed beyond MWNY)

Now, I realize that this is gonna sound iffy...

And I would like to point out, I have been around here for quite some time... This is my fourth account... One before 'The Great Outage'; one after TGO, but before the divorce (and nine months of celibacy from home internet access), long forgotten; one that is registered with my work email address (which I couldn't get by remote login when I wanted to post when getting this cable modem installed, since I do not use M$ products and therefore do not use IE, which I would have needed to use to access said mail account over the net... Whew!).

So, now that I have done nothing to establish any type of real credibility, I will tell my tale...

Also, I cannot give to many specific details on the who/how this info comes to me, as to not blow the 'cover' of my source...

Now you folks REALLY want to believe, don't you!

Someone involved with Apple Stores and MacWorld show logistics recently divulged some info... The last two (2) MacWorlds were screwed... Things were intended to be shown, but were not ready at the last minute... And Steve Jobs was PISSED!!!

MWNY2002 is supposed to be the one to watch, things are supposed to come together this time...

DDR Main Logic Boards, faster CPUs, and a big change from the current 'no audio in/Apple Design speakers only output' problems...

I have probably said too much already...

:shrug:

What Dorsal describes will get you most of the way to a G5. I'll take one please.

I really don't care about a G5 by now, I just want Apple to give me a good reason to buy a PowerMac the next time I am buying a computer. If it has a big bad bus, over 1.2 ghz in the mid range and solid graphics (ATI R300, since I like ATI more than NVidia) I'm happy. I'd be even more happier if it has a handle to carry and does not weight a ton, but that's about it.

Oh, and if they do release a 19" TFT I hope it's more than 1280x1024.

[quote]Originally posted by BobtheTomato:
<strong>
If Apple releases a G5 I'll buy myself a graham cracker
If Apple doesn't you have to buy me a graham cracker
</strong><hr></blockquote>

G5s shmi5s(skywalker that is
I want to know how you can buy a SINGULAR graham cracker and where!...I think tomato bob has some inside information to the cracker companies....they're going to start selling individually wrapped graham crackers.....I better go invest!

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
<strong>Sorry for the long haitus, but it has been quite busy here. We are in final testing phases of our Apple hardware and there has been an excitement in the air. I believe many of you will be pleasantly surprised with the hardware to be released, and after seeing some other sites, I'd like to remind you all that behind most rumors is a kernel of truth, despite the fact that some sites like to embelish on the tidbit they get. Without further ado...

The PowerMac G4 as we know it will be retired. Well the architecture will at least. We will see changes to the system bus, processor and general layout. Motorola has been hard at work with the 130nm G4. It will scale nicely (at least 1.5GHz by the summer) and have improved bus features. Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. More to come. Cache will also be increased on the processor level. Twice what is seen now. You will see a collaboration with another hardware company, but this will not surprise some of you in the know.

More to come.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How exactly does the above constitute 2002 being apple's year? There is nothing in this guy's post to inspire any confidence and certainly nothing to kick the cr*p out of the wintel crowd with. Is the 64bit G5 coming? Apparently not. Is Aqua finally gonna work quickly? Apparently not. Is Maya gonna get Macified? apparently not. DDR? Possibly - oh well better late than never I guess. Is there gonna be a new killer graphics sub system? apparently not. FW2? Apparently not.

way beyond . . .

[quote]Originally posted by Nitride:
<strong>Inventory build up of PowerPC.
We have just seen PowerLogix announce G4 upgrades of up to 1 GHz. Why would Moto suddenly have some extra inventory to sell to PowerLogix when Apple is using G4 in *four* totally separate product lines; G4 tower, Xserve, eMac/iMac, PowerBook G4.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

because apple aren't shipping enough G4's?

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
<strong>

How exactly does the above constitute 2002 being apple's year?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think he means "the year in which Apple will finally regain some of the ground they lost since 1999, so as not to appear riculously behind the Wintel world any longer--simply very slow compared to all the rest".

How's that for Apple's year?

To call it by that name Apple should start leading the pack once again, and this isn't going to happen anytime soon...

Oh well, I like my Titanium well enough--though with X is slower than my old iBook running 9... Well, I guess that's why we pay the friggin' price premium, right? &lt;/sarcasm&gt;



ZoSo

[quote]Originally posted by Wrong Robot:
<strong>

G5s shmi5s(skywalker that is
I want to know how you can buy a SINGULAR graham cracker and where!...I think tomato bob has some inside information to the cracker companies....they're going to start selling individually wrapped graham crackers.....I better go invest!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey it's in better taste than some of the wagers here yet keeps the theme of no matter what happens I am gratified (kinda like heads I win, tails you lose)

[quote]Originally posted by BobtheTomato:
<strong>heads I win, tails you lose</strong><hr></blockquote>

"Crush 'em"?

ZoSo

I don't like graham crackers, how 'bout cocoanut macaroons.

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
<strong>
How exactly does the above constitute 2002 being apple's year? There is nothing in this guy's post to inspire any confidence and certainly nothing to kick the cr*p out of the wintel crowd with.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I don't know what you're on about, but from what I "know" with some degree of confidence...

"Is the 64bit G5 coming? Apparently not."

- I'd say not this year, but it doesn't need to.

"Is Aqua finally gonna work quickly? Apparently not."

- Apple is giving us Quartz Extreme.

"Is Maya gonna get Macified? apparently not."

- 3.5 has been shipping for a while, and there is a new version in the works that will be fully on-par with the PC & Unix versions.

"DDR? Possibly - oh well better late than never I guess."

- I think this is pretty much assured given the Xserve. Several sources say that memory bandwidth to the processor will improve. This may or may not be on-par with the WIntel crowd, but at least its improving. If you believe Dorsal then its going to be good.

"Is there gonna be a new killer graphics sub system? apparently not."

- Yes, there will be. Dorsal may be refering to this, but go check out the other threads.

"FW2? Apparently not. "

He mentioned this in his last post (March?). I'm guessing that it is part of the new chipset which, according to Moki, has been held up for quite a while for testing / debugging reasons.


You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad.

No, apple gives me plenty of reasons to be mad

There's a difference between being negative and not living in the RDF

Take a look at the XServe Archetecture. I believe that, as speculated before, Apple will actually employ a seperate bus for the memory. They have obviously been playing arround with juggling around plans and demos whith edited busses and putting different things on the system controller. I think that they would have done the memory like this for the XServe, however they were changing from the regular model a ot already and still need to sell to people who cherish that model.

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
<strong>You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad.

No, apple gives me plenty of reasons to be mad

There's a difference between being negative and not living in the RDF </strong><hr></blockquote>

There is no doubt that they do provide a few good reasons of irritation, and I don't live in the RDF... but everything discussed here is rumoured prerelease and since Apple hasn't admitted to it yet, it doesn't really fall into the RDF does it? No, it is just some cautious optimism -- nothing listed above is particularly outrageous, and Apple does deliver improved technology on a regular basis. If they didn't we'd still be running on a 7.8 MHz 68000 with 128K of RAM, 64K of ROM, and a noisy floppy drive. They even pull ahead of the PC crowd now and then (MacIIfx, 601, 604e, even the G3 in some ways). Give them some credit, and realize that engineering is actually hard work and can take a lot of time and money.

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
<strong>You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad.

No, apple gives me plenty of reasons to be mad

There's a difference between being negative and not living in the RDF </strong><hr></blockquote>

and the difference is??? Who's RDF, yours??
Things can always be better than they are. Learn to live in reality, what it is is what it is.

There is no doubt that they do provide a few good reasons of irritation, and I don't live in the RDF... but everything discussed here is rumoured prerelease and since Apple hasn't admitted to it yet, it doesn't really fall into the RDF does it? No, it is just some cautious optimism -- nothing listed above is particularly outrageous, and Apple does deliver improved technology on a regular basis. If they didn't we'd still be running on a 7.8 MHz 68000 with 128K of RAM, 64K of ROM, and a noisy floppy drive. They even pull ahead of the PC crowd now and then (MacIIfx, 601, 604e, even the G3 in some ways). Give them some credit, and realize that engineering is actually hard work and can take a lot of time and money.

I like many would be very happy if apple employed some innovative design on the contents of their innovative designs. Some of this stuff sounds good - but that's all. Believe it or not, I am actually optimistic that apple can pull something out of the hat but I find it bizarre that so many people are trumpeting the possible addition of DDR or a speed hike to 1.5ghz as an amazing and dream come true possibility. I would regard it as a small step, a welcome one to be sure but a small step. And yes I know that engineering is actually hard work and can take a lot of time and money but how come apple seem to be only ones struggling at it? Its not as if they are short of cash. I've been amazed at the design work that has gone into the casings of the mac line (with the exception of the eMac) but just wish apple would show the same verve, daring and innovation on the inside.

I love how maclots use Quartz Extreme as an escape when faced with the fact that Aqua is slow, and always will be slow.

Quartz Extreme won't make Aqua run faster in general use. Only the Compositor will be optimized so that it isn't utterly pathetic during multiple events.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</p>

I am perfectly happy living within the warm confines of the Apple (SJ) RDF. I like getting wrapped-up in the hype... why...? Because truth-be-told... we're ALWAYS gonna want more from them... ALWAYS... you think there are DELL forums speculating on the pending releases of hardware or marketing or design...?

I am somewhat of a Power-User to some extent... I'm a designer who uses Photoshop, Illustrator, Lightwave, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro... apps that need speedy hardware... and I must say... that I get the performance I need off my 533 G4 w/ 1.5 GB RAM. Sure... renders could be quicker... but that'll ALWAYS be the case.

My 533 G4 is STILL suiting me fine... but when I upgrade to the NEXT top-of-the-line PowerMac... it TOO will suit me fine, because it will be even FASTER than my current machine.

Whatever they release at MWNY... I'm sure the performance will be to my liking. As long as they release products with style, substance, a certain "coolness" factor and still continue to provide me with the BEST operating system (IMHO) on the planet... I am very happy with them.

FWIW. Do not confuse my love for Apple hardware & software with "Blind Acceptance". I too am capable of recognizing occasional shortcomings... but let's be real... put any OTHER company under the same scrutiny that *we* put Apple under, and I'm willing to bet they would fail miserably.

The so-fabled "RDF" can be a fun place to be if you are AWARE that you are living in it and not "blind" to reality. I enjoy it for what it is and will continue to do so.

As a friend pointed out to me: "Dude... Apple could unveil a Toxic Pollution Emitter that spews harmful chemicals into the atmosphere and you'd focus on how EFFICIENTLY it does it and how COOL it looks while doing so..."

Yeah...? So what's your point? Heheheh...

Anyhow... I'm looking forward to the MWNY and whatever is released.

Let's hope it's a "doozie".

[quote]Originally posted by Nostradamus:
<strong>Quartz Extreme won't make Aqua run faster in general use. Only the Compositor will be optimized so that it isn't utterly pathetic during multiple events.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you had a chance to try it already? Or how do you know so precisely?

[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:
<strong>Anyhow... I'm looking forward to the MWNY and whatever is released.

Let's hope it's a "doozie".</strong><hr></blockquote>

What is highly likely:
New mobo, like Xserve, ddr to main memory like Xserve, improved G4 [edit] with larger cache like Xserve [end edit], system chip like Xserve, [edit] 4x AGP off of System chip allowing full access to main memory like Xserve.

Likely:
MaxBus @ 166Mhz to system chip, FireWire 2, [edit] better graphics like Dorsal said [end edit], [edit] DSPs on system chip like Moki said [end edit]

Likely in '03:
G5, RIO from CPU to System chip, HT from System chip to GPU, 128 bit Main memory (2x64).

Machines designed for Shake and Tremor and all the other stuff that Apple will buy will be here in '03 IMHO
Any of the stuff that is likely in '02 will serve the markets they are intended to. If you want to do highend 3D wait till '03. Remember that Apple and Moto are pulling of an 18 month stale mate with the PPC, from what I have heard there is a huge difference between a 7400 and a 7455. On the horizon the 85xx class processors look very interesting indeed. Again the 85xx could be '03

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Brendon ]

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Brendon ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Nostradamus:
<strong>I love how maclots use Quartz Extreme as an escape when faced with the fact that Aqua is slow, and always will be slow.

Quartz Extreme won't make Aqua run faster in general use. Only the Compositor will be optimized so that it isn't utterly pathetic during multiple events.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

does it really matter? using it you notice a difference and pretty much all of my issues with the responsiveness of OS X have been resolved with Jaguar on my G4/400.

You're right in that maybe some things still are slow in Quartz like drawing and antialiased text that make browsers that use quartz slow in rendering but I didn't notice it that much if at all

I swear, some of you will never be happy. Life is too short too be this worked up over a computer.

If you really believe life is better on the PC side, then buy a PC.

TinG5

[quote]Believe it or not, I am actually optimistic that apple can pull something out of the hat but I find it bizarre that so many people are trumpeting the possible addition of DDR or a speed hike to 1.5ghz as an amazing and dream come true possibility. I would regard it as a small step, a welcome one to be sure but a small step. <hr></blockquote>

If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?

No, I think what's much more likely is an Xserve chipset with a modest speed boost, like say to 1.266Ghz or 1.333GHz. I like Programmer's calculations of the boost the Xserve chipset will give, but I fear they may be too optimistic. Perhaps 10-20%, but 25-30% just seems to high, given the P3 only saw a 3% increase going to DDR. The performance boost from the increased bandwith, coupled with the increase in clock speed by 25-33%, should give us a good 25-40% overall boost.

That is, if Apple doesn't just bump the clock to 1.1GHz, and does nothing with the bus...

[quote]Originally posted by There is no g5:
<strong>I swear, some of you will never be happy. Life is too short too be this worked up over a computer.

If you really believe life is better on the PC side, then buy a PC.

TinG5</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen! And on that note.....que the 1984 commercial music.....we need all true mac fans to gather close together. Bring weapons and food enough to last a few years. We will be relocating to an undisclosed location to weather out the storm post July NYM. Bring only your family, and only those memebers who have the mark of the fruit. We are one people, one mind, one body, one OS... Our enemies shall fall before us and we shall triumph.

PS, I would like to take this moment and give a shout out to my good friend steve jobs. I still believe in you!!!

If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?

Compare favourably with top end athlons? is that it? Not Toast top end athlons? Are we mac users now so easily impressed? By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. At that point exactly which athlons will it compare favourably against by the time you receive the newly ordered 'Power' Mac?

for the RDF's lovers:
When did you saw Steve Jobs make a benchmark with Photoshop ? Last year at MWNY.
I bet we will see one this year with Photoshop 7 for X. And I think this will be 'grandiose' cuz of the new graphic architecture (and here I'm hoping that they will compare some video stuff between PC and Final Cut).
Maybe we will have only a 166 Mhz FSB but with 2 bus for each processor. Maybe we will have a full 266/333 FSB... who knows? But all is clear for a big announcement. I don't think we will have just a lame 1.2 Ghz with the same bus or an upgraded iPod. The sky is clear for the take off.

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
Compare favourably with top end athlons? is that it? Not Toast top end athlons? Are we mac users now so easily impressed? By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. At that point exactly which athlons will it compare favourably against by the time you receive the newly ordered 'Power' Mac?<hr></blockquote>

Sorry but Athlon processor are hitting the wall. Did you see the real Mhz upgrade ? It's really bad. They're ready for the next gen, they cannot do more with this generation. They even can compete with the PIV anymore.
And so here we are... we WILL have Gx ! Maybe in a year maybe in 6 months, but it's a given.
ANd Apple will compete in video and 3D. RDF full blast !

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: jeromba ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
<strong> If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?

Compare favourably with top end athlons? is that it? Not Toast top end athlons? Are we mac users now so easily impressed? By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. At that point exactly which athlons will it compare favourably against by the time you receive the newly ordered 'Power' Mac?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just a question, but just what do you need with such awsome power? Unless you are a 3-D designer or head programmer at Adobe what's the BFD? Pick up any mac from the Apple Store, stick a geforce 4 in it, and slap a gig of ram in it. It can handle anything
you might throw at it. I don't think a processor measuring contest is in order. That is saved for high school locker rooms or unix boards. This is a mac world, and I believe my mac has a bigger backside cache then yours. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> So what's the big deal? Which one of your PC buddies is picking on you so much that you have to have a bigger stick to hit them back with. Try a new approach. When they raise their stick, burn it off with the Toasty-7 napalm pack from marathon and then buy them a cheerwine.

I thought the magic was in owning a mac, not building the highest duplo tower.

A 1.5 GHz G4, with the requisite memory bandwidth would give an Athlon a run for its money. No, its not top-flight performance, but until MWSF in 2003, its the best we'll get.

The new IBM part we'll see at MWSF (and I am fairly confident IBM is behind the next gen PPC) will be an impressive performer.

Yet the G4 will continue to improve as it settles into the consumer and portable lines. The important distinction here is that Apple won't need MP in these lines, and will be able to have Motorola (or themselves) implement an on-chip DDR controller, since cache-coherency will no longer be an issue. The G4 in this form will be much like the P4 and Athlon in the sense that it will have a MUCH larger L2 cache (2x its current size) and may even gain RIO interconnects (this part is speculation), since Apple won't be using the MPX.

A second possibility is that Dorsal M is in fact an informed poster, in which case Apple may in fact pull some engineering feat to resolve the current bandwidth/MP issue (the issue is that an on-chip controller precludes MP, or comes at too high a price).

At any rate, I think you'll be quite happy with the performance of a G4 at 1.4 GHz, especially if they get some serious bandwidth in there.

But if top notch performance is what you crave, I recommend holding off until winter, when you'll be able to pick up the IBM part, the R300, as well as the next gen nVidia card.

[quote]Sorry but Athlon processor are hitting the wall. Did you see the real Mhz upgrade ? It's really bad. They're ready for the next gen, they cannot do more with this generation. They even can compete with the PIV anymore.
And so here we are... we WILL have Gx ! Maybe in a year maybe in 6 months, but it's a given.
ANd Apple will compete in video and 3D. RDF full blast !<hr></blockquote>

what's more interesting is that AMD has stated that the Athlon is SOL WRT to SOI: especially considering that Moto and AMD have a process arrangement (wherein they share tech, but Moto leads the process). Did the partnership fall apart?

Spooky, apparently you didn't get the main point of my post, so I'll quote it here with the important bit highlighted:

[quote]If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?<hr></blockquote>

...

[quote]By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. <hr></blockquote>

Moved on to where? To another 3-5% boost in performance that Intel/AMD have been shoveling out every few months for the past two years? The only thing that might result in a big boost for AMD's chips is the Hammer, and it's not due until next year. We're talking about what Apple might do in four weeks, so if Apple were to come out with something that matched current Athlon performance, how much could AMD immediately pull ahead? 10%? Are you really worried about such a paltry difference?

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:
<strong>

Just a question, but just what do you need with such awsome power? Unless you are a 3-D designer or head programmer at Adobe what's the BFD? Pick up any mac from the Apple Store, stick a geforce 4 in it, and slap a gig of ram in it. It can handle anything
you might throw at it. I don't think a processor measuring contest is in order. That is saved for high school locker rooms or unix boards. This is a mac world, and I believe my mac has a bigger backside cache then yours. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> So what's the big deal? Which one of your PC buddies is picking on you so much that you have to have a bigger stick to hit them back with. Try a new approach. When they raise their stick, burn it off with the Toasty-7 napalm pack from marathon and then buy them a cheerwine.

I thought the magic was in owning a mac, not building the highest duplo tower.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't need the power - except in an ideal sense (ie a computer that boots immediately etc but we'd ALL love that!!). I do however need to counter the endless arguments from the wintel biased procurement and IT controllers where I work (just like everywhere else in the Uk I guess). We only have one powermac based suite in our centre now. Why? Becuase the powers that be switched to wintel left right and centre. Why? Because (according to them) "Macs don't use the latest technologies, they have low clock speeds and you can get all the software for PCs anyway. There is no way we can justify purchasing 60 machines running at 1Ghz for twice the price of windows machines running at 2Ghz."

This is the only argument they continually put forward. I know they're stupid and don't get it. But really its us that don't get it. We will never presuade them of the Mghz myth. Apple should look to dominating the Multimedia industries where it can rule. But even there, the last multimedia show I went to I counted 4 Macs - the rest were PCs or SGI boxes.

We have purchased over 150 computers recently - all wintel. Just imagine if all that cash was going into apple's coffers. . .