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Apple's smart home platform may finally unite legion of isolated devices

post #1 of 73
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Apple is reportedly on the verge of announcing a new iOS-based platform that will integrate with users' "smart home" systems, a move that could finally tie together a sea of individual devices -- and controllers -- to turn the niche "Internet of things" into a mainstream market.



According to a report on Monday, Apple is preparing to launch at WWDC a new software platform that centers around the iPhone. Interfacing with Internet-connected devices, like security systems, lights and household appliances, the handset would be the center of a user's digital universe.

Existing Platforms



Apple isn't the first to make an attempt at unifying the smart home with a single standard. Examples include first-party solutions like Belkin's WeMo home automation technology and open standards such as SmartThings and ZigBee, the latter of which is compatible with a huge number of devices including Nest and Philips Hue products.


Belkin's WeMo LED lighting.


Like other hardware and software coalitions, segmentation inhibits development of a single universal solution by which users can control their expanding connected device universe. Oftentimes a Wi-Fi or Bluetooth enabled light requires its own app, while a smart TV needs another.

While there has been some work toward a unified standard from firms offering devices in a single product category such as lighting, other OEMs that market a range of devices choose to push proprietary protocols. WeMo's plan, for example, is to offer first-party products as well as compatibility with other premium partners like Crock-Pot, Mr. Coffee and more.

There has yet to be a widely accepted standard that brings all these devices under one umbrella, whether it be for economic purposes or quality control.

What Apple brings to the table is a massive installed user base in iOS device owners. Sheer numbers could behoove manufacturers to adopt Cupertino's new platform under a "Made for iPod/iPhone/iPad" style license. Apple would then be in control of product certification, ensuring users a consistent and cohesive experience that heretofore has not existed in the smart home segment.

Devices



A variety of products are already supported -- some exclusively -- on Apple's iOS platform through remote control apps. Whether they run in the background or require active user input, the following apps and corresponding products are a sampling of existing products that could be announced as initial partners of Apple's smart home solution.

Philips Hue

The Hue system was one of the first connected device product lines to see mainstream adoption after being introduced in Apple Stores in 2012. Featuring bright, accurate, color-tunable LED lights, Hue is billed as the "world's smartest lightbulb."

Hue


Philips' system, first introduced in a three-pack starter kit, requires a wireless hub that controls up to 50 bulbs and accessories through a dedicated app. The software itself functions as a remote to change up colors and brightness, while boasting automation in the way of geofencing and on/off scheduling.

Hue has extended its range to include three bulb types and lighting accessories sold under the Friends of Hue moniker. The company will be introducing all-white bulbs, physical switches and high-end 3D-printed luminaires in the coming months.

Nest

Former iPod chief Tony Fadell's Nest Labs first introduced the Nest Learning Thermostat in 2011 and has since released a follow-up model as well as the Protect connected carbon monoxide and smoke detector.

Nest


The Nest thermostat is also compatible with the ZigBee standard via Wi-Fi and controls basically all HVAC systems in a user's home. Forced air, radiant, multi-zone AC, heat pumps and more are automatically monitored and adjusted by the device.

Along with remote control functions, automatic temperature and auto-schedule settings, Nest can also run energy efficient cycles to save electricity.

The Nest Protect was recently in the news after a flaw was discovered in the "Nest Wave" convenience function, which resulted in a stoppage of sales in April. Protect's "wave" feature, which allows users to turn off alerts by flailing their hands in front of the device, was found to pose a potential threat to consumers as it could be unintentionally activated.

Kevo

Kwikset's Kevo is one of the better examples of an automated yet secure door lock. Powered by batteries and operated via Bluetooth 4.0, the Kevo is convenient and reliable, though could pose a problem for a platform based on Wi-Fi connectivity.

Kevo


Unlike other smart locks, Kevo needs to establish a Bluetooth connection with a registered eKey device in order to operate. For Apple's latest iOS devices, the Kevo app runs in the background and waits for a call from the corresponding door lock to pass along the encrypted data, making the task of unlocking a door as easy as touching the deadbolt rose, which activates the locking/unlocking process.

Kevo represents a device that -- barring a standalone app -- only a unified smart home platform can control. Integrating Wi-Fi-based protocols into a single piece of software is one thing, but simultaneously monitoring and controlling both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connected devices would require a holistic solution. Apple's iOS devices are perfectly suited for the task.

Sonos

Moving to audio, Sonos has made a name for itself in offering Internet-connected speakers that can be controlled via a single app. The company has a host of products ranging from bookshelf speakers to full-blown home theater equipment, all controlled from a single app or standalone remote.



Sonos' big draw is asynchronous multi-room playback, which allows users to listen to different songs in different rooms. Of course the same song can be played throughout the house if a user so chooses. The system requires a wireless bridge and relies on software to stream audio from a user's iTunes library and music services like Spotify and Pandora.

Multi-room audio is nothing new, though it was previously reserved for the well-heeled or tech savvy. Sonos' plug-and-play functionality brought the technology to the masses.

AirPlay

A platform all its own, Apple's AirPlay lets users stream audio and video from iOS and Mac devices to HDTVs and other equipment. Alongside Apple's own Apple TV and AirPort Express, third-party speaker manufacturers are also building the tech into their products as an alternative to Bluetooth streaming.

Libratone


Companies like Libratone, responsible for the Loop, Lounge and Zipp speakers reviewed on AppleInsider, tout AirPlay compatibility as a main selling point.

Other

In addition to the major brands mentioned above, a slew of smaller companies are marketing connected devices. Netatmo, for example, offers a smart thermostat and weather station that monitors air quality, temperature and other metrics. Another firm called Parrot sells Flower Power, a sensor-laden device that measures waters, sun and temperature for proper plant maintenance.

What's Next



If and when Apple debuts its smart home platform, the company's plans will likely have a great impact on manufacturers already fielding their own connected solutions. Whether it be products like Hue that subscribe to a somewhat open connectivity protocol such as ZigBee, or devices like Belkin's closed WeMo lineup, a shift in the smart home sector is coming. The question is who will decide to opt in and who will go it alone.

It's also interesting to note that the reported licensing angle contrasts Apple's current "MFi" program. Instead of introducing a product (the iPod) and reining in the subsequent accessories cottage industry, Apple will be laying down a licensing and software framework onto which existing OEMs can hang their devices. In that respect the proposed smart home platform is a bit like Apple's AirPlay or CarPlay, except instead of feeding iPhone content, Apple's system would presumably offer a secure and cohesive smart device control service.

According to rumors, all will be revealed at WWDC 2014 and AppleInsider will be there to deliver the latest announcements.
post #2 of 73
Speculation based on speculation. These are the hopes and dreams that will be dashed when Apple doesn't announce anything like this at WWDC. You could've just waited until the real announcement is made, and we've got concrete information to talk about. June 2 is just around the corner.

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post #3 of 73

I hope this turns out. "The internet of things," is such a fun category, but lacks standards that are easy for a casual user to keep up with. Getting a touch of Apple's, "It just works," approach could bring it mainstream. Or it may be too soon.

post #4 of 73
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Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Speculation based on speculation. These are the hopes and dreams that will be dashed when Apple doesn't announce anything like this at WWDC. You could've just waited until the real announcement is made, and we've got concrete information to talk about. June 2 is just around the corner.

 

And because of all these rumors whatever is announced will be declared a letdown and boring. Apple is becoming victimized by its own hype machine. It can’t possibly live up to the speculation raging out of control. 

post #5 of 73

You've still got a week, Samsung. You should be able to get something out by this Thursday!

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post #6 of 73
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Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

And because of all these rumors whatever is announced will be declared a letdown and boring. Apple is becoming victimized by its own hype machine. It can’t possibly live up to the speculation raging out of control. 
It's not even Apple's hype machine. It's bored tech pundits, who might have some vague information, but more likely just want this really bad, who get repeated by other bored tech pundits. It's true they're a victim of their success, but only because of the feedback loop of tech punditry
post #7 of 73
Wait so Apple hasn't even announced anything yet and AI is already declaring Apple will turn the ""Internet of things" into a mainstream market"? 1oyvey.gif
post #8 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Speculation based on speculation. These are the hopes and dreams that will be dashed when Apple doesn't announce anything like this at WWDC. You could've just waited until the real announcement is made, and we've got concrete information to talk about. June 2 is just around the corner.

This is one rumor that really appeals to me. I normally don't get excited about the usual AI rumor mill articles, but I really, really like the possibility of Apple unifying  the home automation future. I think the time is right. This trend in on the radar, whether Apple brings it or not, so I hope they do.

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post #9 of 73

I love the idea of Apple getting into intelligent homes, but it has to be done intelligently. We’re talking installation from the core, not control at the limbs.

 

Meaning if you’re going to force me to buy a $40 lightbulb for every socket of my house, you’re not going to sell any product. “Smart” lightbulbs are one of the stupidest products since the DVD rewinder. Make the WIRING smart. Then let me use whatever bulb I want.

 

Same goes for everything else. In fact, if the installation is done on the wiring level, there will be many appliances that you won’t need to replace with smart” versions. But you may want to, given the greater level of control you’d be afforded.

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post #10 of 73
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I love the idea of Apple getting into intelligent homes, but it has to be done intelligently. We’re talking installation from the core, not control at the limbs.

Meaning if you’re going to force me to buy a $40 lightbulb for every socket of my house, you’re not going to sell any product. “Smart” lightbulbs are one of the stupidest products since the DVD rewinder. Make the WIRING smart. Then let me use whatever bulb I want.

Same goes for everything else. In fact, if the installation is done on the wiring level, there will be many appliances that you won’t need to replace with 
smart
” versions. But you may want to, given the greater level of control you’d be afforded.


I'm with you on this. You're going to have to have Bluetooth and/or wifi everything.

Apple wouldn't release something that would require wiring I wouldn't think. They haven't ever released something before an extremely healthy infrastructure was already in place- so IF it happened, were looking at wifi/Bluetooth which sounds ridiculously expensive. Everyone of those products they mentioned are 3-20x the cost of "dumb" models. I'll make investments, but yikes... I might tap the brakes with light bulbs.

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post #11 of 73
These rumors come from Apple. They're ramping up their hype machine. If it's not Apple then you'll read an article tomorrow from a long time associate of Apple who says they've talked to high level personnel and hear there will be no Home Automation announcements. If you don't hear that, bet on it. This is how it works.
post #12 of 73

Who owns or lives in a house anymore?

 
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post #13 of 73
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Originally Posted by Shogun View Post

These rumors come from Apple. They're ramping up their hype machine. If it's not Apple then you'll read an article tomorrow from a long time associate of Apple who says they've talked to high level personnel and hear there will be no Home Automation announcements. If you don't hear that, bet on it. This is how it works.
There was nothing in the FT report that was hype. This article is hype but it's not coming from Apple.
post #14 of 73

You know AI, all this speculation doesn't help. Why the **** dont we wait to see what they show before publishing another thousand articles of the best case scenario? You're not doing Apple any favors here, because if it doesn't meet every bullet point of all these pie-in-the-sky fantasy posts it will be considered a "disappointment". This article is written with literally zero information. Let's all just shut the **** up and wait. Its only a few more days. 

post #15 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

Who owns or lives in a house anymore?
Wut?
post #16 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post
 

Who owns or lives in a house anymore?

 

People who make some money live in houses. Yeah, they still exist. Where the **** do you live that you havent seen a house? My city is 95% houses. 

post #17 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogun View Post

These rumors come from Apple. They're ramping up their hype machine. If it's not Apple then you'll read an article tomorrow from a long time associate of Apple who says they've talked to high level personnel and hear there will be no Home Automation announcements. If you don't hear that, bet on it. This is how it works.

 

Complete bullshit. Yeah, Apple's grand plan is to spoil their huge WWDC a few days before the event by leaking it to some website. There's absolutely no angle where that would make any fucking sense. All it does is lower the wow factor and surprise at the event. Take off your tin foil hat. Yeah, some Apple employee somewhere probably leaked this in some fashion, but no way in hell it had official approval by leadership. 


Edited by Slurpy - 5/26/14 at 7:05pm
post #18 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 

 

Complete bullshit. Yeah, Apple's grand plan is to spoil their huge WWDC a few days before the invent by leaking it to some website. There's absolutely no angle where that would make any fucking sense. All it does is lower the wow factor and surprise at the event. Take off your tin foil hat. Yeah, some Apple employee somewhere probably leaked this in some fashion, but no way in hell it had official approval by leadership. 

 

Sure there is an angle... Cook, Ive and a few of the other Apple Brothers like to drive Samsung nuts. A leak this close to the big event should have the Samsung hive buzzing. lol

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post #19 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Complete bullshit. Yeah, Apple's grand plan is to spoil their huge WWDC a few days before the invent by leaking it to some website. There's absolutely no angle where that would make any fucking sense. All it does is lower the wow factor and surprise at the event. Take off your tin foil hat. Yeah, some Apple employee somewhere probably leaked this in some fashion, but no way in hell it had official approval by leadership. 

Hi foul mouth. Yes, this is how it works. They want people to be excited. To be bursting at the seams in anticipation. So one week before they drop key hints. Nothing's been given away. Quite to the contrary, more people than ever want to hear what the Apple solution might be. Wisen up. You can't believe the storyline you're being presented. These controlledeaks come from the top. If not, look for a fast disclaimer tomorrow, as Apple won't want people waiting in anticipation for something not coming. If there's no as-good-as-official walking back, it's happening. Again, that's how you play the game.
post #20 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogun View Post


Hi foul mouth. Yes, this is how it works. They want people to be excited. To be bursting at the seams in anticipation. So one week before they drop key hints. Nothing's been given away. Quite to the contrary, more people than ever want to hear what the Apple solution might be. Wisen up. You can't believe the storyline you're being presented. These controlledeaks come from the top. If not, look for a fast disclaimer tomorrow, as Apple won't want people waiting in anticipation for something not coming. If there's no as-good-as-official walking back, it's happening. Again, that's how you play the game.

 

I'm sorry, did I offend your delicate sensibilities? I wasn't swearing at you, the words are simply added for emphasis. 

 

Anyway, you're wrong, and your logic is sketchy at best. Apple's been virtually silent for 6 months. Noone needs a push to get excited about WWDC. The legacy of WWDC will be the actual announcements, and what they show- not the hype leading up to it. Blowing people away by showing amazing products will make its own waves- there's no need to pad it with leaks for "pre-hype". That's not Apple's style, and it never has been. All it does is lessen the impact, and the benefits are non-existant. It gives people time to imagine scenarios and go on tangents, and will lead to speculation that will probably not materialize. Keeping a lid on it until the reveal would be the ideal scenario. There's not a shred of evidence or logic that Apple would want to pre-empt their own moment. 

post #21 of 73
I wonder when AI will put up a story on this: http://t.co/YC7CvhDSpA
post #22 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Not everyone is homeless, like you? People who make some money live in houses. Yeah, they still exist. Where the **** do you live that you havent seen a house? My city is 95% houses. 

NYC- the only place one actually truly "lives".
 
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post #23 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

Sure there is an angle... Cook, Ive and a few of the other Apple Brothers like to drive Samsung nuts. A leak this close to the big event should have the Samsung hive buzzing. lol

This reminds me so much of Microsoft announcing vaporware.     Maybe Apple should have spent some money and bought NEST.

post #24 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


Belkin's WeMo LED lighting.
Cool!
I can use my iPhone to handily turn on all lights, inside and outside at the same time!
post #25 of 73
Crestron own's the home automation market and they have phenomenal gear. It is a crowded market and apple knows this fact. There is no way they are thinking about this in terms of hardware/software as they do with computers and phones. They will most likely create official partnerships and put their logo on some equipment. This is a mistake and I will live to see Apple realize it.
post #26 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

That's spelled fewel imbecile.

Whatever. I lived there 10 years. A $59 bus ticket will get you  to where I am now, but I shouldn't really be telling anyone that. We already have too many losers here from out of state.

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post #27 of 73

People who call this BS have no clue as to what's going on around them - here and now - today. One app not mentioned is Harmony, which I use on our iPads and iPhones in the house to control our entertainment center. Using Logitech's Harmony Ultimate hardware, we have complete control over our HDTV, audio receiver, Blu-ray, CD/SACD changer and Apple TV. Through the Apple TV, our household users can access not only all the online iTunes audio/video/streaming offerings, but also a total of 16,000 music tracks, 3,000 TV shows and dozens of movies currently stored on hard drives through any of our three Macs.

 

And that's only regarding entertainment. So to ye of limited imaginations and little vision - mark the following paragraph from the article, and mark it well:

 

"What Apple brings to the table is a massive installed user base in iOS device owners. Sheer numbers could behoove manufacturers to adopt Cupertino's new platform under a 'Made for iPod/iPhone/iPad' style license. Apple would then be in control of product certification, ensuring users a consistent and cohesive experience that heretofore has not existed in the smart home segment."

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post #28 of 73
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Originally Posted by taekat View Post

Crestron own's the home automation market and they have phenomenal gear. It is a crowded market and apple knows this fact. There is no way they are thinking about this in terms of hardware/software as they do with computers and phones. They will most likely create official partnerships and put their logo on some equipment. This is a mistake and I will live to see Apple realize it.

Have you ever heard of market disruption? Apple is a past master at it. Look what happened to BlackBerry, Palm, Motorola Mobility and a host of other comm devices when iPhone burst on the scene. Look at what's happened to PC and notebook sales since the advent of the iPad. How about CD sales and the Sony Discman since iTunes and iPods disrupted their market? Crestron is privately owned, but if they were publicly traded, I would't be rushing out to buy any of their stock right now. Crestron management may well be experiencing one of those "Oh, sh*t!" moments.


Edited by Kibitzer - 5/26/14 at 10:01pm

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post #29 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

Who owns or lives in a house anymore?
Really?
In April 2014, there were 433,000 new houses sold and 4.35 million existing homes sold in the U.S.
So, a LOT of people live in houses and at least that many are homeowners.
post #30 of 73

I don't get all the negativity to this story. It is based on a rumour, but is fun speculation.

 

If nothing else, I got a nice handy list of things already available in the market for a smart home in one single post.

post #31 of 73
Those Hue bulbs are $60/apiece right now. The "Internet of Expensive Things" is going to grow very slowly.
post #32 of 73

So there are 3 major things that have been speculated upon:

 

1. Health

2. Home automation

3. Payment Gateway

 

I wonder what WWDC will truly bring us? 2nd June can't come fast enough!

post #33 of 73
There already is a system that interconnects various appliances with the BUS system at home. Among others, the best known is the KNX protocol

It is a wired (LAN) standard that allows to control home appliances and compatible systems (light and so on).

What I see is the following: an entrenched, open source (hence free), system among professionals (electricians, specialists) which is cumbersome, non transparent for the average user and, to a certain extent, legacy. With all the security issues involved.

On the other hand Apple, which has a history in consumer friendly, smartly designed, software. If they go the "usual Apple route" they will align consumer devices manufacturers and start with these. Eventually also professionals will be brought on board.

An example: if I design my home from scratch I will probably have an electrician on board. If I want to connect all devices: Music, lights, air conditioner, thermostat, appliances (fridge, tv, you name it) they all have to be able to talk to each other or at least share the same "pipe" (cable). Otherwise I'll have a cable mess.

Right know, for instance, if you install a SONOS system in your home (wired one) you'll have to have dedicated wiring only for that system.
Connecting all devices, in a NEW home, via Wireless puts a huge burden on that connection because everything communicates via WiFi with the resulting bandwidth problem and latency.

Granted, the BUS system needs an overhaul. The instruction (for instance on/off) is sent along the LAN with the address of the specific switch (or set of switches) that it pertains. If a switch is "not concerned" it just passes the message on.
What happens? If, before leaving a house, I press on the button "shut all lights off" it can take up to a minute for all lights to turn off. Same thing happens with "turn on". And this latency is very frustrating. And I'm talking only about lights. Should you add other appliances said times increase dramatically.

Entering this market, in a serious and "non hobbystic way", marketing proclamations à là NEST a side, is harder than it seems.
The "reward" would be enormous. As the strive for a smarter, more ecological and cheaper house is there. And people building from scratch can invest tens of thousands of dollars in such a system.


If Apple does it step by step, then it will have to create a highly scalable, well interconnectable system. There are some smaller proprietary systems, such as Feller (www.feller.ch) or bTicino (www.bticino.it) or probably countless others. But they are there for smaller houses and smaller systems (and usually are derived from lights, not multimedia (music, video, internet).
As soon as you have higher needs though, you have to use a standard BUS system (such as the aforementioned KNX).

This market, which is expanding rapidly and is a mess of players with proprietary, non-interconnected systems, sure is interesting. Very interesting.
But the right approach is of the highest importance.

Is goes way beyond some smart bulbs and a little music in your sleeping room. And has huge potential for a vast array of players, with some pressing security issues. The more things one interconnects, the higher the security risk (or the control burden).

(disclosure: I design houses and apartment with these systems. But I am not an electrical engineer myself)
post #34 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BestKeptSecret View Post

So there are 3 major things that have been speculated upon:

1. Health
2. Home automation
3. Payment Gateway

I wonder what WWDC will truly bring us? 2nd June can't come fast enough!
WWDC will bring the holy grail.
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post #35 of 73
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Wait so Apple hasn't even announced anything yet and AI is already declaring Apple will turn the ""Internet of things" into a mainstream market"? 1oyvey.gif

It's like every religion. Has all the answers to all the questions. By definition you fool :-)

post #36 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

Who owns or lives in a house anymore?
Really?
In April 2014, there were 433,000 new houses sold and 4.35 million existing homes sold in the U.S.
So, a LOT of people live in houses and at least that many are homeowners.

So its a pretty tiny market by your numbers. Hardly worth talking about. And it's going to change the world ??? Dream on.


Edited by Taniwha - 5/27/14 at 1:31am
post #37 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

You've still got a week, Samsung. You should be able to get something out by this Thursday!

You forget ! Samsung makes the home appliances and already has a spectrum of home automation products, devices and APPs on the market. Apple will need to run to catch up .. but you can still pretend they invented it all if it fills a psychological need in you.

post #38 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

NYC- the only place one actually truly "lives".

Since when are trailers considered houses?


Pompous, arrogant, and smug- I knew there was a reason I liked you. 1wink.gif

I thought you were being sarcastic, but you weren't, which is awesome that opinions like that exist. My last home was 4200 square feet on a third of an acre, with a pool, outdoor kitchen, the works- and I bought it foreclosed for a measly $242k back in 08/09. After selling in 12' for $411k, I've since downsized and bought again (3600 ft for $172k) hoping the housing market would slow within a couple years so I could buy bigger again- unfortunately (selfishly), it's still strong (my business in Wastewater is consistent so bad housing markets allow me to buy in it and sell when the market turns). Keep in mind, this isn't in the country, hundred year old dilapidated homes, or some rinky dink town- they are newer homes in Collin County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country and top 3 in Texas.
I enjoy spending time with my family and friends at my home. What's your apartment, the size of my master bedroom and bath? What's it cost- $2k a month? Enjoy your closet.

My point is- people want different things. I wouldn't trade locations with you. Not to mention that pesky state tax you have to pay... Sucker. 1biggrin.gif


Regardless of all that- I'm sure those with homes in Hawaii would beg to differ with either of us. 1cool.gif
Edited by Andysol - 5/27/14 at 3:08am

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post #39 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taniwha View Post

So its a pretty tiny market by your numbers. Hardly worth talking about. And it's going to change the world ??? Dream on.
Tiny market? Those are MONTHLY numbers. At an annual rate, that's 5 million new homes and 50 million existing homes.

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post #40 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

NYC- the only place one actually truly "lives".

Since when are trailers considered houses?

Some of those trailers are bigger than many NYC apartments. lol.gif
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
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