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Apple and Samsung agree to drop cross-appeal of ITC embargo ruling

post #1 of 36
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In a pair of filings with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit earlier this week, both Apple and Samsung dropped their respective appeals of an ITC order to block sales of certain Samsung products, agreeing further pursuit on the issue would be unfruitful.

ITC

News of the agreement first came from a Samsung motion on Thursday to voluntarily dismiss its appeal of the ITC ruling from August 2013 that found the company's products in infringement of two Apple patents.

As noted by FOSS Patents' Florian Mueller, who its own motion corroborating Samsung's statements.

Apple said that Samsung's motion to drop its appeal means the Commission's exclusion and cease-and-desist orders are still in effect, but the Korean company's workarounds of the two patents in question have already nullified any commercial gain from the ruling.

Samsung's CAFC appeal sought to reverse the ITC import ban, while Apple's appeal looked to reverse decisions that allowed Samsung to create workarounds to its patented technology and possibly broaden the scope of the embargo.

In June 2013, Samsung won an ITC ban against older iPhones and iPads, though the decision was vetoed by President Barack Obama two months later. With the dismissal of appeals to Apple's win, it appears neither company will gain any meaningful commercial leverage as a result of their respective ITC advances.



post #2 of 36

So the point of protecting one’s IP is what, exactly? :no:

Originally posted by Relic

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post #3 of 36

These IP cases just seem to go round and round in circles making the lawyers rich.

post #4 of 36

Samsung owes $2B to Apple.  They need to pay and stop copying.

 

Next step...  Slam dunk Amazon and the DOJ in the iBooks case.

post #5 of 36
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So the point of protecting one’s IP is what, exactly? 1oyvey.gif

The point? Pay the lawyers.

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post #6 of 36
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Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Samsung owes $2B to Apple.  They need to pay and stop copying.

Next step...  Slam dunk Amazon and the DOJ in the iBooks case.

Slam dunk? Ha! Not in this world. It'll be as slow and painful as possible.

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post #7 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Samsung owes $2B to Apple.  They need to pay and stop copying.

Next step...  Slam dunk Amazon and the DOJ in the iBooks case.
What exactly is Samsung copying right now? And is Apple copying because things like actionable notifications, third party keyboards and inter-app communications all existed on other platforms before they did on iOS?
post #8 of 36

Samsung knew the outcome years ago! And that's exactly the reason they were not afraid of copying Apple ...

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

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....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

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post #9 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


And is Apple copying because things like actionable notifications, third party keyboards and inter-app communications all existed on other platforms before they did on iOS?

 

Please. Where are the patents for those things you mentioned? If someone has a patent then I strongly encourage them to sue Apple and collect royalties.

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post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So the point of protecting one’s IP is what, exactly? 1oyvey.gif

I don't know, but Tesla Motors seems to feel the same way: they're sharing all their IP:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2266983-tesla-shares-all-its-patents-what-does-this-mean-for-shareholders
post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Please. Where are the patents for those things you mentioned? If someone has a patent then I strongly encourage them to sue Apple and collect royalties.

So copying can't happen unless there's a patent involved. Gotcha.1rolleyes.gif

Certainly not claiming that any "copying" took place but it's silly to start using the lack of a patent as proof it didn't happen.
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post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

I don't know, but Tesla Motors seems to feel the same way: they're sharing all their IP:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2266983-tesla-shares-all-its-patents-what-does-this-mean-for-shareholders

I'd wager that if a competitor uses some part of Tesla's IP to come up with a better solution, there will be a legal or licensing problem.

I believe he is doing this to speed the adoption of his designs because his real end goal is not a better electric car, it is a more effective power source for his Mars colony. That's his long game.

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post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

I don't know, but Tesla Motors seems to feel the same way: they're sharing all their IP:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2266983-tesla-shares-all-its-patents-what-does-this-mean-for-shareholders

I'd wager that if a competitor uses some part of Tesla's IP to come up with a better solution, there will be a legal or licensing problem.

I believe he is doing this to speed the adoption of his designs because his real end goal is not a better electric car, it is a more effective power source for his Mars colony. That's his long game.

That seems like a 'feasible' outcome, yes.
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What exactly is Samsung copying right now? And is Apple copying because things like actionable notifications, third party keyboards and inter-app communications all existed on other platforms before they did on iOS?

Samsung is copying Apple's IP as per the court's ruling(s) and they are required to pay. As far as Apple copying, I haven't heard of any injunctions or claims against them from anyone except Samsung's counter claims. So what's your point?
post #15 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What exactly is Samsung copying right now? And is Apple copying because things like actionable notifications, third party keyboards and inter-app communications all existed on other platforms before they did on iOS?

Sammy's entire smartphone/tablet business is a copy of Apples every move. it seems ironic that people will bash Apple for using a third party idea that was used on an iPHONEY in the first place.
post #16 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'd wager that if a competitor uses some part of Tesla's IP to come up with a better solution, there will be a legal or licensing problem.

I believe he is doing this to speed the adoption of his designs because his real end goal is not a better electric car, it is a more effective power source for his Mars colony. That's his long game.

I'd wager he won't. Did you read what Elon Musk committed to do and why?
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

"Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport. If we clear a path to the creation of compelling electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property landmines behind us to inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary to that goal. Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology

He went on to say:
"When I started out with my first company, Zip2, I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors. After Zip2, when I realized that receiving a patent really just meant that you bought a lottery ticket to a lawsuit, I avoided them whenever possible.

At Tesla, however, we felt compelled to create patents out of concern that the big car companies would copy our technology and then use their massive manufacturing, sales and marketing power to overwhelm Tesla. We couldn’t have been more wrong. The unfortunate reality is the opposite: electric car programs (or programs for any vehicle that doesn’t burn hydrocarbons) at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent, constituting an average of far less than 1% of their total vehicle sales.

At best, the large automakers are producing electric cars with limited range in limited volume. Some produce no zero emission cars at all.

Given that annual new vehicle production is approaching 100 million per year and the global fleet is approximately 2 billion cars, it is impossible for Tesla to build electric cars fast enough to address the carbon crisis. By the same token, it means the market is enormous. Our true competition is not the small trickle of non-Tesla electric cars being produced, but rather the enormous flood of gasoline cars pouring out of the world’s factories every day.

We believe that Tesla, other companies making electric cars, and the world would all benefit from a common, rapidly-evolving technology platform.

Technology leadership is not defined by patents, which history has repeatedly shown to be small protection indeed against a determined competitor, but rather by the ability of a company to attract and motivate the world’s most talented engineers. We believe that applying the open source philosophy to our patents will strengthen rather than diminish Tesla’s position in this regard.
"
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/15/14 at 1:31pm
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post #17 of 36

Tesla is a lightweight if there ever was one. Compared to the big auto manufacturers (and the component suppliers like Bosch or Delphi), Tesla's patent portfolio is miniscule. They are also in financial difficulty and are starting to make desperate moves to stay relevant.

 

Someone should ask Musk to make available all the secret IP from SpaceX. Oh wait, he doesn't patent most of it. There's a very good reason for that too. Patents have two sides, but people only talk about the patent protection/royalty side. The other side of getting a patent is that once granted it becomes PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. That means your competitors get a highly detailed description of your invention. One of the conditions for getting a patent is that a person with reasonable skill in the field could take a patent description and produce the machine/device the patent describes. This prevents patent descriptions/claims from being so obscure that nobody could understand what they mean.

 

So there's no way Musk would ever consider patenting all their proprietary technology at SpaceX. Doing so would let your competitors know how all your devices work, and give them detailed instructions on how to build their own. And give them an ability to see exactly who's further along technology wise.

 

Musk is running his mouth to make it sound like he's being generous when the bottom line is he lacks the ability to change the automotive industry, and without any help from others he'll be irrelevant soon. There aren't enough wealthy "save the planet" types out there to support a company like his.

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post #18 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


So copying can't happen unless there's a patent involved. Gotcha.1rolleyes.gif

Certainly not claiming that any "copying" took place but it's silly to start using the lack of a patent as proof it didn't happen.

 

Never said that, so for the millionth time stop putting words in my mouth to use in your twisted logic. You knew exactly what I meant, but are being intentionally obtuse (like usual). I'll put it so a 5 year old can understand:

 

Apple sues Samsung for copying IP and wins in court. Twice now. Then the loser trolls come out of the woodwork and say Apple is a hypocrite for suing Samsung when Apple has used ideas they didn't come up with (like notifications). The difference is Apple never sued Samsung (or anyone) over some commonly used feature that's been around forever in countless versions - they sued Samsung over features they own patents on. The real hypocrites are the ones who bash Apple for using some feature that's in common use (and not patent protected) and equating it to what the thief Samsung did (stealing actual patent protected IP). They are not the same at all. Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.

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post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I'd wager he won't. Did you read what he committed to do and why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Never said that, so for the millionth time stop putting words in my mouth to use in your twisted logic. You knew exactly what I meant

Apple sues Samsung for copying IP and wins in court. Twice now. Then the loser trolls come out of the woodwork and say Apple is a hypocrite for suing Samsung when Apple has used ideas they didn't come up with (like notifications). The difference is Apple never sued Samsung (or anyone) over some commonly used feature that's been around forever in countless versions - they sued Samsung over features they own patents on. The real hypocrites are the ones who bash Apple for using some feature that's in common use (and not patent protected) and equating it to what the thief Samsung did (stealing actual patent protected IP). They are not the same at all. Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.

No one mentioned suing Apple, nor suing anyone else for that matter. Except for you. . Rogifan made a comment on Apple and possible copying of features from another companies OS. You quickly said "Please, where are the patents for those things" to imply patents are required as a condition for copying.

Yeah, I think I do know what you meant. . .
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post #20 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Never said that, so for the millionth time stop putting words in my mouth to use in your twisted logic. You knew exactly what I meant, but are being intentionally obtuse (like usual). I'll put it so a 5 year old can understand:

Apple sues Samsung for copying IP and wins in court. Twice now. Then the loser trolls come out of the woodwork and say Apple is a hypocrite for suing Samsung when Apple has used ideas they didn't come up with (like notifications). The difference is Apple never sued Samsung (or anyone) over some commonly used feature that's been around forever in countless versions - they sued Samsung over features they own patents on. The real hypocrites are the ones who bash Apple for using some feature that's in common use (and not patent protected) and equating it to what the thief Samsung did (stealing actual patent protected IP). They are not the same at all. Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.

Define common use? How many users does their have to be to qualify common use? Btw where did anyone mention theft? If someone says "Apple copied this or that" it doesn't mean that they think Apple stole anything. Copying doesn’t equate theft.
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post #21 of 36

I think the whole idea of trying to protect iOS and the devices via patents was Steve's baby. He's the one who prominently featured the patented-ness of the interface and physical features in the slides that introduced the iPhone to the world. That's a feature that should have mainly impressed investors, not users. Why should a devoted iPhone owner care whether Android phones have similar features, and vice versa? The fact that Androids have swipe keyboards available doesn't make your iPhone any worse at what it does. 

 

I also think it may have mattered more early on. When iOS and the devices were still new, they were a huge gamble for Apple that required critical mass to be successful in terms of attracting app developers. That critical mass has been achieved and isn't going anywhere. Apple's products are now simultaneously truly mass market -- not niche goods -- but also have a stellar reputation for quality. Apple doesn't really to try to fend off its competitors via legal means when it's winning in the marketplace anyway, and clearing the issue out of top management's attention allows them to focus on further innovation rather than distracting legal battles (that aren't going amazingly well anyway). 

 

And if Apple stops suing its competitors, they'll probably stop suing Apple in turn -- most of their lawsuits have been retaliatory -- which will permit Apple to gather up -- and improve upon -- some of the genuinely useful innovations that other companies developed first (e.g. actionable notifications, swipe keyboards, etc.). 

post #22 of 36
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post

I think the whole idea of trying to protect iOS and the devices via patents was Steve's baby.

 

Nope, it predates Steve by several hundred years.

 
Apple doesn't really to try to fend off its competitors via legal means when it's winning in the marketplace anyway...


Uh... yeah. It does.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post
 

I think the whole idea of trying to protect iOS and the devices via patents was Steve's baby. He's the one who prominently featured the patented-ness of the interface and physical features in the slides that introduced the iPhone to the world. That's a feature that should have mainly impressed investors, not users. Why should a devoted iPhone owner care whether Android phones have similar features, and vice versa? The fact that Androids have swipe keyboards available doesn't make your iPhone any worse at what it does. 

 

I also think it may have mattered more early on. When iOS and the devices were still new, they were a huge gamble for Apple that required critical mass to be successful in terms of attracting app developers. That critical mass has been achieved and isn't going anywhere. Apple's products are now simultaneously truly mass market -- not niche goods -- but also have a stellar reputation for quality. Apple doesn't really need to try to fend off its competitors via legal means when it's winning in the marketplace anyway, and clearing the issue out of top management's attention allows them to focus on further innovation rather than distracting legal battles (that aren't going amazingly well anyway). 

 

And if Apple stops suing its competitors, they'll probably stop suing Apple in turn -- most of their lawsuits have been retaliatory -- which will permit Apple to gather up -- and improve upon -- some of the genuinely useful innovations that other companies developed first (e.g. actionable notifications, swipe keyboards, etc.). 

post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Please. Where are the patents for those things you mentioned? If someone has a patent then I strongly encourage them to sue Apple and collect royalties.

There are a lot of patents about Notification Bar, but Apple and Google agreed to drop cross-litigations. This is one of them ( http://www.google.com/patents/US20090249247?printsec=drawing#v=snippet&q=status%20area&f=false ) filed in 2009.
post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post
 

Apple sues Samsung for copying IP and wins in court. Twice now. Then the loser trolls come out of the woodwork and say Apple is a hypocrite for suing Samsung when Apple has used ideas they didn't come up with (like notifications). The difference is Apple never sued Samsung (or anyone) over some commonly used feature that's been around forever in countless versions - they sued Samsung over features they own patents on.

I thought the main court case was over look and feel?  Apple didn't have any explicit patents on that, did they?  This is why there was so much grumbling about Apple suing over "rounded corners".

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post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradipao View Post


There are a lot of patents about Notification Bar, but Apple and Google agreed to drop cross-litigations. This is one of them ( http://www.google.com/patents/US20090249247?printsec=drawing#v=snippet&q=status%20area&f=false ) filed in 2009.

That patent is still to be granted (it's an application), so Google wouldn't be able to use it. But like you said not that it matters now as they agreed to stop litigating for the time being. Still no cross-license deal though, but I personally think that might still happen in the future.


Edited by Chipsy - 6/16/14 at 4:51am
post #27 of 36
All I know is Tim Cook surely has to be THE best CEO in the world to lead his company through those patent lawsuits at the same time they were creating Swift and improving iOS and OS X (while simultaneously having Apple presumably engineering some of their most advanced products in Apple's history).

When Tim eventually writes a business book, it's going to be a blockbuster.

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post #28 of 36
Apple sue samsung with prior arts patents and got the American court to award billion dollar damage to apple.

Samsung sued apple and won and got the itc to ban sales of iphones. Then apple got the American president to veto the ban.

Nice going there ... American nepotism.
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


I don't know, but Tesla Motors seems to feel the same way: they're sharing all their IP:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2266983-tesla-shares-all-its-patents-what-does-this-mean-for-shareholders

Actually it may be not a bad idea. The issue that confront Tesla right now is the in ability to make lots of cars at a lower cost. Yes I see Tesla showing up all over the place, and I love the design. 

 

However, unless he can get more companies making more of parts he will never get the economy of scale they need to bring the cost down. Right now everything in that car is unique to Tesla so so he barring all the costs. Today in the automotive industry every company are sharing designs and IP and they have a large and competitive supply base.

 

This may be the right move for Tesla, verse going the battle which Apple is dealing with today.

post #30 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post


Someone should ask Musk to make available all the secret IP from SpaceX. Oh wait, he doesn't patent most of it.

Correction: He doesn't patent any of it. He relies on trade secret.
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post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerobim08 View Post

Apple sue samsung with prior arts patents and got the American court to award billion dollar damage to apple.

Samsung sued apple and won and got the itc to ban sales of iphones. Then apple got the American president to veto the ban.

Nice going there ... American nepotism.

That's not the definition of nepotism... Unless you have evidence Barack Obama is related to Tim Cook or Steve Jobs.

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post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What exactly is Samsung copying right now? And is Apple copying because things like actionable notifications, third party keyboards and inter-app communications all existed on other platforms before they did on iOS?

Apple didn't appropriate anything from Android for which anyone owned copyright or patent. That's the glaring, fundamental difference that most people seem to miss. Google can't patent these software innovations because they copied most of them from the jailbreaking community in the first place.
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

I don't know, but Tesla Motors seems to feel the same way: they're sharing all their IP:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2266983-tesla-shares-all-its-patents-what-does-this-mean-for-shareholders
Actually it may be not a bad idea. The issue that confront Tesla right now is the in ability to make lots of cars at a lower cost. Yes I see Tesla showing up all over the place, and I love the design. 

However, unless he can get more companies making more of parts he will never get the economy of scale they need to bring the cost down. Right now everything in that car is unique to Tesla so so he barring all the costs. Today in the automotive industry every company are sharing designs and IP and they have a large and competitive supply base.

This may be the right move for Tesla, verse going the battle which Apple is dealing with today.

That's a good point. They are supposedly still loosing money, yet less than before. I heard there are now 6 dealers in my country, and they just opened an assembly plant in Tilburg. Good for my economy as well, I suppose.

Though I do see more Bentleys in my town than Teslas, but I don't think these can be compared(?)
post #34 of 36
The samsung should to copy from google glasses and the google are going piss off
post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by tastowe View Post

The samsung should to copy from google glasses and the google are going piss off

They are copying Google Glass. Samsung is an equal-opportunity offender.
http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-gear-glass-2014-5
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post #36 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moreck View Post

Google can't patent these software innovations because they copied most of them from the jailbreaking community in the first place.

Such as?

Of course all the techs take inspiration from note-worthy ideas and features on other platforms. We as consumers should say thank you.
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