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Apple sides with Microsoft in opposition to 'global search warrant' ruling

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
Apple has thrown its hat into the ring with fellow technology and telecommunications giants Microsoft, Cisco, Verizon, and AT&T to oppose a federal court ruling that could force American companies to hand data about foreign customers over to the U.S. government in violation of international laws and treaties.




Cupertino, Calif.-based Apple's participation comes in the form of an amicus curiae, or "friend of the court," brief filed jointly with networking equipment maker Cisco on Friday in United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. The filings were first spotted by GigaOm.

Microsoft is appealing portions of a warrant issued by U.S. magistrate judge James Francis IV ordering the company to give U.S. authorities access to email data from an Irish customer. That data is held in Ireland, and Microsoft charges that complying with the order would force it to break Irish data protection laws.

In earlier arguments, Microsoft suggested that the government could instead rely on the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty between the U.S. and Ireland, in which both countries have agreed to assist one another on gathering and exchanging information for the purposes of law enforcement. Judge Francis rejected both tacks, leading to Apple's intervention.

"In rejecting Microsoft's motion to vacate the search warrant, the Magistrate erred by failing to consider the conflicting obligations under foreign and domestic law that arise when courts order providers to produce data about foreign users stored in foreign countries," Apple and Cisco's filing reads. "By omitting this evaluation--and by dismissing the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty ("MLAT") process out of hand with no factual findings regarding the Irish MLAT at issue--the Magistrate placed the burden of reconciling conflicting international laws squarely on U.S. providers."

The companies go on to argue that upholding the warrant would place them and their employees at risk of foreign sanctions and could spur reciprocal legal actions on the part of international courts, putting the data of U.S. citizens in play.

The relative safety of foreign customers' data in the hands of U.S. technology companies has become in increasingly important issue as Silicon Valley firms struggle under the weight of revelations about the magnitude of the National Security Agency's data spying apparatus. Microsoft's is the latest in a string of high-profile cases that has seen large companies -- including Apple -- flex their legal muscle to challenge what is widely seen as overreaching on the part of the federal government.
post #2 of 49
"overreaching on the part of the federal government" seems to be a gross understatement!
post #3 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by applecored View Post

"overreaching on the part of the federal government" seems to be a gross understatement!

 

Agreed. This is really getting out of hand. The judges and politicians need to be put back into a much smaller sandbox. 

post #4 of 49

American authorities seem to have this real problem grasping the idea that the laws of the USA should pertain to the USA and no other country.

 

If the US courts want to push this and enforce it.  I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby every US based tech company - see ya.

post #5 of 49
What's with all the US judges these days? I don't remember reading about so many rogue judges ignoring the laws, making up weird interpretations of basic law, or just plain being crazy in the way they rule on standard law in the last 40 years. I know there have been judges that have ruled strangely, typically supreme court justices, but now it's every judge who want's their 5 seconds of fame. We already have all the judges with their weird rulings against Apple, not we have judges who don't remember what they learned in law school trying to be a judge for the world court. Let's get back to interpreting and ruling using real law not all these made up rulings based on who they're being paid off by.
post #6 of 49

What other company could you follow and learn so much about our screwed up government and legal system. These battles Apple has gotten into or are in the middle of is definitely a learning opportunity.

 

In this case I did not know that treats exist which required mutual agreement to protect people personal information.

post #7 of 49

Between IP rulings, privacy violations, national security boondoggles, capricious antitrust enforcement, and insane tax laws, our courts and our Feds seriously run the risk of ruining some of the brightest spots of the American economy.

 

What a pathetic bunch of ignorant fools.

post #8 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from ....

Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.

post #9 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from ....

Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.

A typically idiotic comment, but I know from direct experience that EU companies are turning away from the US because we don't trust the US and we don't accept the concept of US exceptionalism. The arrogance of America is not going to turn out well for anyone except their adversaries and competition, which is a good thing.  

post #10 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taniwha View Post
 

A typically idiotic comment, but I know from direct experience that EU companies are turning away from the US because we don't trust the US and we don't accept the concept of US exceptionalism. The arrogance of America is not going to turn out well for anyone except their adversaries and competition, which is a good thing.  

And, another b-s posting from you.

 

Your 'direct experience'? With what? For which product? Category? From which US company to which company (and country)? What competition?

post #11 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And, another b-s posting from you.

Your 'direct experience'? With what? For which product? Category? From which US company to which company (and country)? What competition?
http://www.infoworld.com/d/the-industry-standard/the-nsas-spying-has-in-fact-hurt-us-cloud-providers-239168

and apparently it's about to get worse?
http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2014/06/16/the-morning-download-europe-brazil-take-aim-at-u-s-tech/
"A series of meetings between top-level officials in Europe and Brazil portend a rocky future for U.S. technology vendors overseas. New regulations in these regions could complicate matters for chief information officers of multinational corporations hoping to simplify their technology procurement processes.

France’s minister for digital affairs Friday said the French government will start working on a common strategy with Germany to develop new digital regulations in Europe to prevent U.S. “monopolies” from obtaining a stranglehold on cloud technology. . ."
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/16/14 at 9:02am
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post #12 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And, another b-s posting from you.

Your 'direct experience'? With what? For which product? Category? From which US company to which company (and country)? What competition?
http://www.infoworld.com/d/the-industry-standard/the-nsas-spying-has-in-fact-hurt-us-cloud-providers-239168

and apparently it's about to get worse?
http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2014/06/16/the-morning-download-europe-brazil-take-aim-at-u-s-tech/
"A series of meetings between top-level officials in Europe and Brazil portend a rocky future for U.S. technology vendors overseas. New regulations in these regions could complicate matters for chief information officers of multinational corporations hoping to simplify their technology procurement processes.

France’s minister for digital affairs Friday said the French government will start working on a common strategy with Germany to develop new digital regulations in Europe to prevent U.S. “monopolies” from obtaining a stranglehold on cloud technology. . ."

 

Useless links per usual (your Infoworld link actually says "Although worrying, the loss of business is not as great as analysts originally feared" and the other article is about Brazil, not the EU). Moroever, it completely misses the point of my posts.

 

One, if you look at my post just prior, I actually talk about the potential impact of US courts and Feds on US tech firms. Two, I was talking about the EU, remarking how they're gutless vis-a-vis US bullying. Third, I was referring to that other guy's 'direct experience' and asking him to tell us/me whether and how his one data point is generalizable. I also asked him for specifics.

 

Please move along, unless you have some specific examples of how the EU is standing up to the US on this (and a range of other) issues, not vacuous stuff like "we will talk to Germany about a common strategy...." (yeah, sure, that makes the US shiver in its boots). Thanks.

post #13 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Useless links per usual yada yada

I suppose useless if you have no interest in following EU responses to reports of spying. 1hmm.gif Here's more links you'll surely find useless too. Others may find value in them tho.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/387040/eu-wants-to-cut-us-power-over-the-internet
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/world/europe/us-germany-intelligence-partnership-falters-over-spying.html?_r=0
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/eu-threatens-stop-sharing-data-u-s-spying-reports-article-1.1391702

With that said I have no doubt that some EU officials may have feigned disgust with US spying efforts while pushing for the EU to develop their own drone program and spy satellite system to reduce US dependence and our interference with EU goals. The Germans seem particularly intent on pushing the EU into separating their citizen and terrorism monitoring and response efforts from the US.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/bruno-in-brussels-eu-unplugged/brusselsbruno/367/eu-planning-to-own-and-operate-spy-drones-and-an-air-force/
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/16/14 at 9:33am
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post #14 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.

???

 

They weren't gutless when they fined Microsoft or Intel, or put restrictions on Google.

 

Why are they "gutless"?  What have they done (or not done) that showed a lack of guts?  Especially in the area of resisting the influence of US technology firms.

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post #15 of 49
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.

 

EU fines Microsoft $731 million for broken promise, warns others

 "Companies face severe sanctions for flouting EU rules, even accidentally."

Wednesday's fine brings the total of EU fines issued against Microsoft over the past decade to more than 2.2 billion euros, making it the world's worst offender of EU rules.

While the charge could have been higher, it still marks a firm sanction and will be carefully noted by the likes of Google, which is involved in a dispute with the Commission over how it ranks search engine results.

Source: Reuters, Wed Mar 6, 2013.

post #16 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


I suppose useless if you have no interest in following EU responses .... blah blah blah

Indeed, I do not. Here, I'll raise you one, with examples in three major domains:

 

Ukrainehttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2dcb625c-d146-11e3-81e0-00144feabdc0.html#axzz34pCv5lSQ

 

Spyinghttp://euobserver.com/justice/122266

 

Internethttp://technology.ie/icann-says-screw-eu-european-domain-registrars/

 

(I have no further interest in continuing this with you).

post #17 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Indeed, I do not. Here, I'll raise you one, with examples in three major domains:

Ukrainehttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2dcb625c-d146-11e3-81e0-00144feabdc0.html#axzz34pCv5lSQ

Spyinghttp://euobserver.com/justice/122266

Internethttp://technology.ie/icann-says-screw-eu-european-domain-registrars/

(I have no further interest in continuing this with you).

You had enough intererest to go looking for additional articles. Thanks for those. I don't think them useless either. 1wink.gif
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post #18 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Indeed, I do not. Here, I'll raise you one, with examples in three major domains:

 

Ukrainehttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2dcb625c-d146-11e3-81e0-00144feabdc0.html#axzz34pCv5lSQ

 

Spyinghttp://euobserver.com/justice/122266

 

Internethttp://technology.ie/icann-says-screw-eu-european-domain-registrars/

 

(I have no further interest in continuing this with you).

 

Only the last one of those links has anything to do with technology, and in it appears the EU is standing its ground.  It may not be winning the fight any time soon, but it's fighting it.  So not gutless.

 

The Ukraine one is hardly a simple situation, and in the spying one the entire point is that the commissioner is under fire for backing down.  Maybe she was gutless, but she's being taken to task for it.

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post #19 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
 

???

 

They weren't gutless when they fined Microsoft or Intel, or put restrictions on Google.

 

Why are they "gutless"?  What have they done (or not done) that showed a lack of guts?  Especially in the area of resisting the influence of US technology firms.

 

 

Those are just specific examples against specific companies when they've violated specific laws in the EU. Any court or government would do that. For example, the US has imposed many dozens of such fines on EU companies too.

 

The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."

 

You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?

 

(Edited to fix a typo).

post #20 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
 

If the US courts want to push this and enforce it.  I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby every US based tech company - see ya.

I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.

 

Bye-bye EU tech companies.

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post #21 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."

 

You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?

 

Obviously not, because it's a reaction exaggerated for effect.  I'm not responding to that, I'm responding to you.

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post #22 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
 
I'm not responding to that, I'm responding to you. 

You apparently have no issues with conversations without context (as with gatorguy).

 

I do.

post #23 of 49
Perhaps we will start to see some of the cloud servers of US based tech companies be moved to Europe or to wherever has the safest regulatory climate?
post #24 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shojin Monkey View Post

Perhaps we will start to see some of the cloud servers of US based tech companies be moved to Europe or to wherever has the safest regulatory climate?

Safest for whom? Al-qaeda?

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post #25 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.


Oh I don't know, I think there are a lot in the Eu Parliament who are a lot more pissed than you obviously think:

 

Quote:
 

Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) in a plenary session in Strasbourg voted in favor of a section of the resolution that called on the Commission to "give consideration to all the instruments at their disposal in discussions and negotiations with the U.S. [...] including the possible suspension of the passenger name record (PNR) and terrorist finance tracking program (TFTP) agreements."

 

Should the Commission decide it necessary to suspend the data sharing agreement of passenger details — including personal and sensitive individual data — it could ultimately lead to the grounding of flights between the EU and the U.S.

 

This issue has been brewing for a while and this exact scenario the EU raised concerns about almost exactly a year ago.  I think it is likely to lead them to actually do something. http://www.zdnet.com/amid-nsa-spying-scandal-the-gloves-are-off-for-eus-justice-chief-7000017132/.

 

They really can not ignore an open declaration by a US court that US laws hold supremacy in the EU.  They might well be slow to act, but I don't see how they could afford not to.

post #26 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.


Oh I don't know, I think there are a lot in the Eu Parliament who are a lot more pissed than you obviously think:

 

Quote:
 

Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) in a plenary session in Strasbourg voted in favor of a section of the resolution that called on the Commission to "give consideration to all the instruments at their disposal in discussions and negotiations with the U.S. [...] including the possible suspension of the passenger name record (PNR) and terrorist finance tracking program (TFTP) agreements."

 

Should the Commission decide it necessary to suspend the data sharing agreement of passenger details — including personal and sensitive individual data — it could ultimately lead to the grounding of flights between the EU and the U.S.

 

This issue has been brewing for a while and this exact scenario the EU raised concerns about almost exactly a year ago.  I think it is likely to lead them to actually do something. http://www.zdnet.com/amid-nsa-spying-scandal-the-gloves-are-off-for-eus-justice-chief-7000017132/.

 

They really can not ignore an open declaration by a US court that US laws hold supremacy in the EU.  They might well be slow to act, but I don't see how they could afford not to.

I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of pissed-off lawmakers in the EU. With the recent round of elections, there are probably even more.

 

But I am very skeptical that they will act. I hope I am wrong, but I think I am not. We'll see.

post #27 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.

 

Bye-bye EU tech companies.


Yes, I am totally for that.  Are US shareholders going to be pleased that Apple, Microsoft Google etc, might lose access to the EU market entirely?  It's a market of 500 million affluent people and is vastly more significant to US tech companies bottom lines than China.

post #28 of 49
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
If the US courts want to push this and enforce it.  I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby every US based tech company - see ya.

 

Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.

 

Bye-bye EU tech companies.

 

Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!

 

cnocbui, the EU losing US tech companies will be like someone losing their brain or their heart; there's no EU computer manufacturer that could fill the void in the public sector left by all those Dell and HP boxes.

mstone, your scenario won't be healthy for VISA, Mastercard, the airlines, Boeing and the American economy.

 

Businesses on both side of the Atlantic share one thing in common, the need to make money.  Governments on both sides need the companies to make money to make the tax that flows into the governments' (and politicians') pots.  They're not going to wittingly do anything which severely curtails that.

 

this judge in contrast has no such consideration or obligation.

His ruling does on the face of it appear to be an overreach.

 

I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where some court in China demands this American judge's home number and address because the judge has an iPhone, iPhone is made by Apple in China, therefore court has juristriction to demand the address of an American.

 

If the US allows this judge to overreach then it can equally expect judges from around the world to overreach and spuriously demand info on people living in the US.

post #29 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."

You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?

(Edited to fix a typo).

No I don't.

My initial response to you was prompted by a specific question you asked and not meant to comment on your overall opinion as posted in a few different replies. Your somewhat rude reply back was uncalled for IMO.
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post #30 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post
 

 

 

Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!

 

cnocbui, the EU losing US tech companies will be like someone losing their brain or their heart; there's no EU computer manufacturer that could fill the void in the public sector left by all those Dell and HP boxes.

mstone, your scenario won't be healthy for VISA, Mastercard, the airlines, Boeing and the American economy.

 

Businesses on both side of the Atlantic share one thing in common, the need to make money.  Governments on both sides need the companies to make money to make the tax that flows into the governments' (and politicians') pots.  They're not going to wittingly do anything which severely curtails that.

 

this judge in contrast has no such consideration or obligation.

His ruling does on the face of it appear to be an overreach.

 

I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where some court in China demands this American judge's home number and address because the judge has an iPhone, iPhone is made by Apple in China, therefore court has juristriction to demand the address of an American.

 

If the US allows this judge to overreach then it can equally expect judges from around the world to overreach and spuriously demand info on people living in the US.

 

Samsung, Toshiba and a host of Chinese and Taiwanese companies could easily fill the void.  You don't think the stuff bought from US tech companies is actually made there do you?

 

The OS is a bigger issue, as it's the OSs, not the hardware, that is important here.  But once again, Samsung have Tizen and would absolutely love the EU market all to itself, as it and Bada are just about the only OSs I know of that didn't originate in the US.

 

Of course this is all a preposterous MAD scenario, as you mentioned, and there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that matters would be allowed to develop that far.  At some point the US court will be told to pull it's head in.  That is a foregone conclusion as according to some Princeton researchers, the US is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy and the US government's  policies and actions are apparently dictated by the interests of the extremely wealthy, so the best interests of Apple, Microsoft, et al. will hold sway in the end.

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post
 

Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!

I was just pointing out how ridiculous the idea was, but I don't necessarily see it being MAD. I would be fine with bringing home all our troops from everywhere, which would put Samsung out of business immediately with Kim Jong on the loose, also end participation in NATO, not allowing any visas into the US, kicking out anyone who does not legitimately belong here and preventing ALL illegal entry. Let's see how well civilization in the rest of the world holds up without the US always picking up the tab. Let the rest of the world use GLONASS and pull the US out of the space station as well.

 

In addition I wouldn't mind if the US went cold turkey on off-shore manufacturing either. 

 

None of that is any more likely to happen than the idiotic suggestion I originally replied to, but in the case of the US, we could handle isolationism better than any other country in the world. Obviously it would not be a wise long term strategy, but it could serve as a blank slate to clean up the disaster that is the current US foreign affairs policy and provide a foundation to rebuild it in a more sensible way. I feel the US gets a lot of bad media just like Apple gets a lot of bad media. Everyone wants to take pot shots at the leader.

 

The world should be thankful the US decided to give them the Internet, otherwise, they would still be using Fax machines to communicate.


Edited by mstone - 6/16/14 at 12:34pm

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post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

 

 

Those are just specific examples against specific companies when they've violated specific laws in the EU. Any court or government would do that. For example, the US has imposed many dozens of such fines on EU companies too.

 

The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."

 

You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?

 

(Edited to fix a typo).

 

http://www.cnil.fr/english/news-and-events/news/article/the-cnils-sanctions-committee-issues-a-150-000-EUR-monetary-penalty-to-google-inc/

 

If Google had failed to obey the order (and pay the fine), CNIL would have been allowed by law to seize all assets pertaining to these datas (and as it was gmail and g+ user datas, any google computer was fine) in France, but also to ask all partners of the judiciary help (about 15 members of EU, this includes Ireland) to do so too.

 

That is nuclear level threat and I doubt they would have gone that far, but Data Protection Laws are very strong in Europe, as well as consumers ones as Apple learned the hard way in Italy, and CNIL has that power. Hell, last year they fined the Police headquarters and Ministery ! And you can both be fined at the national or EU level. Dutch and Spanish equivalent to CNIL found also Google to be in breach of law.

 

Note that the fine was the max one they were allowed to hand, but there is now discussions about raising that ceiling at least 10x.

 

Note also that governement has zero power on CNIL which is a judicial independant entity.

post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."

You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?

(Edited to fix a typo).

No I don't.

My initial response to you was prompted by a specific question you asked and not meant to comment on your overall opinion as posted in a few different replies. Your somewhat rude reply back was uncalled for IMO.

No offense, but your initial response to me was completely uncalled for since it was thoroughly irrelevant to the premise of, and question in, my post.

Irrelevance is equivalent to rudeness in my book.
post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

No offense, but your initial response to me was completely uncalled for since it was thoroughly irrelevant to the premise of, and question in, my post.

Irrelevance is equivalent to rudeness in my book.

Then you take offense a little easier than I do. No prob. I guess when some people look for insults they're easy to find whether real or imagined.
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post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukefrench View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

 


Those are just specific examples against specific companies when they've violated specific laws in the EU. Any court or government would do that. For example, the US has imposed many dozens of such fines on EU companies too.

The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents.  Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."

You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?

(Edited to fix a typo).

http://www.cnil.fr/english/news-and-events/news/article/the-cnils-sanctions-committee-issues-a-150-000-EUR-monetary-penalty-to-google-inc/

If Google had failed to obey the order (and pay the fine), CNIL would have been allowed by law to seize all assets pertaining to these datas (and as it was gmail and g+ user datas, any google computer was fine) in France, but also to ask all partners of the judiciary help (about 15 members of EU, this includes Ireland) to do so too.

That is nuclear level threat and I doubt they would have gone that far, but Data Protection Laws are very strong in Europe, as well as consumers ones as Apple learned the hard way in Italy, and CNIL has that power. Hell, last year they fined the Police headquarters and Ministery ! And you can both be fined at the national or EU level. Dutch and Spanish equivalent to CNIL found also Google to be in breach of law.

Note that the fine was the max one they were allowed to hand, but there is now discussions about raising that ceiling at least 10x.

Note also that governement has zero power on CNIL which is a judicial independant entity.

What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?

Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?
post #36 of 49

Governments seem to be going too far, too fast; cocky is the nature of the overly successful. Eventually citizenry must wake up the dangers of such powers.

Remember, historically every democracy prior to our age became plutocracies. It seems an almost inevitability, a natural evolution. Chomsky suggests, nay says ’tis so.

When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

I am not crazy! Three out of five court appointed psychiatrists said so.

Reply

When I find time to rewrite the laws of Physics, there'll Finally be some changes made round here!

I am not crazy! Three out of five court appointed psychiatrists said so.

Reply
post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?

Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?

 

An EU judicial entity has no power on a US spy outfit, and you are surprised ? Maybe the USA should sweep on their steps first ?

 

But there is reaction, especially in Germany and Dutch, where steps were taken to forbid intercepts at the ISP level.  TAFTA negociations (free trade agreement) were already not in very good shape due to some issues like GMOs and culture exception, but the NSA stuff brought them to a grinding halt.

Only UK is the US lapdog in this fight, as usual.

post #38 of 49

I meant safest for the corporations who presently are set to be penalized whether they comply or not.

post #39 of 49

While I understand the anti-government angst, this article and many of the comments are absolutely misleading. The U.S. government got a search warrant for subscriber email from a U.S. company (Microsoft) for a U.S. investigation.  The only reason the government even had to get a search warrant was because Congress passed the ECPA and gave people limited privacy rights in online information - the 4th Amendment has not been held to even protect your online information because, after all, you gave it away to another person!  This is not at all like the government kicking in your door.

 

(As an aside - this process is what we all want.  The government went to an actual, live judge and presented its evidence.  The judge found there was probable cause to issue the warrant.  The Constitution, the Magna Carta, International Law, Agenda 21, and presumably even the Oathkeepers' Manifesto has never required more.  All the NSA and over-reaching comments are especially absurd because what all the companies want is simply for the government to have to get a warrant, which here they did!)

 

Microsoft responded that for reasons having nothing to do with law, they store the content of that subscriber's data in Ireland.  The subscriber could be Irish, Microsoft may have moved the data there because it was more convenient, or faster for them or the user to access.  They just put it there just because they wanted to. So now the Judge treats Microsoft like any other U.S. entity and says the government is legally making your turn over this information. Microsoft just objects because they arbitrarily moved some of the data to a Dublin data center. 

 

How is that right?  Do you think that AppleInsider should be allowed to avoid legal process by merely choosing to use a server in Canada to store their data?  They are an American company and follow American laws.  Why should they be able to circumvent a normal legal process here based on the location of a server?  They have unlimited access to the data - the location of the server is essentially immaterial.  Do you really want, say, Yemen to start a new data server business where they promise to refuse all foreign legal process so Microsoft and Google and Apple can store all your data there?  Do you U.S. citizens honestly believe that if your ISP randomly decides to store your data elsewhere that you are now protected by that country's privacy laws?

 

The downside is that even if Microsoft wins here, Congress can (and will have to) simply change the ECPA to only require a subpoena for such information.  A subpoena entitles the government to all records "in the control" of the company without regard for where the data is physically located.  If you think this will ultimately result in a big win for privacy, you are wrong.

post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukefrench View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?


Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?

An EU judicial entity has no power on a US spy outfit, and you are surprised ? Maybe the USA should sweep on their steps first ?

But there is reaction, especially in Germany and Dutch, where steps were taken to forbid intercepts at the ISP level.  TAFTA negociations (free trade agreement) were already not in very good shape due to some issues like GMOs and culture exception, but the NSA stuff brought them to a grinding halt.
Only UK is the US lapdog in this fight, as usual.

I wish it were easy as that. Some EU governments, e.g., France, were found out to be spying on their own citizens in a manner similar to NSA. The UK, a member of the EU, held Greenwald's partner at Heathrow for search and questioning. Spain (or was it Portugal, or both?) was implicated in refusing to refuel the Bolivian president's plane. Other than pouting a lot, Germany has done basically nothing to retaliate against its leader being spied on by the NSA.

At least Brazil had the guts to stand up to the US.
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