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Rumor: Apple's 12-inch MacBook Air to enter production in Q3 - Page 2

post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


The TB ports on a laptop are sources of power, I've seen no evidence that the power can be sourced from other devices to charge the laptop. It would certainly be interesting if true. I actually have problems with supplying that much power over flimsy cables and connectors. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to keep tacking on features to a port just because. We will need to see what happens, Apples long delays between hardware updates is a bit frustrating.

That would require significantly more power than they put out. Weren't they something like 5-10W output? Apple's chargers are typically 85W. I don't know if that is peak or extended throughput, but on some generations it still needs to be supplemented by the battery if cpu + gpu are under a considerable load.

post #42 of 47
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

That would require significantly more power than they put out. Weren't they something like 5-10W output? Apple's chargers are typically 85W. I don’t know if that is peak or extended throughput, but on some generations it still needs to be supplemented by the battery if cpu + gpu are under a considerable load.

 

Thunderbolt 1 and 2 (copper) carry 10 watts. Optical carries nothing.

 

Thunderbolt 3, the one Intel is currently working on and which will have a different port, will carry 100 watts.

 

So yeah, we have to change ports AGAIN, but it will truly be the last time. Five Thunderbolt ports down the side of a MacBook (and eventually three on the 15” iPad) and boom, that’s all you need.

post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Thunderbolt 1 and 2 (copper) carry 10 watts. Optical carries nothing.

 

Thunderbolt 3, the one Intel is currently working on and which will have a different port, will carry 100 watts.

 

So yeah, we have to change ports AGAIN, but it will truly be the last time. Five Thunderbolt ports down the side of a MacBook (and eventually three on the 15” iPad) and boom, that’s all you need.


It seems you are correct according to the rumor sites. Intel rumors also turn out to be credible more often than those surrounding Apple. I'm shocked to read that though. How are they going to deal with that much heat transfer? I also can't see it being downstream power (powering a display from a notebook) because they won't come out with any charger that can supply that amount of power.

post #44 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

That would require significantly more power than they put out. Weren't they something like 5-10W output? Apple's chargers are typically 85W. I don't know if that is peak or extended throughput, but on some generations it still needs to be supplemented by the battery if cpu + gpu are under a considerable load.
TB was originally specked for ten watts. I suspect the intention there was to support optical cables and not much more. I thought TB was executed to boost that but I will have to research that a bit. Still it doesn't matter because to the best of my knowledge TB can only supply power from the laptop, the laptop can not receive.

As you may know USB has continually upgraded the power capabilities of the port. Again I would have to look it up but it is way more power than a laptop could easily budget for. I know people hate cords but I really don't see the point in supplying so much power through a communications port. Just imagine a cable short that is just the right impedance to heat up but not trip overloads. People have a tendency to be more respectful of AC power cords.
post #45 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post


It seems you are correct according to the rumor sites. Intel rumors also turn out to be credible more often than those surrounding Apple. I'm shocked to read that though. How are they going to deal with that much heat transfer? I also can't see it being downstream power (powering a display from a notebook) because they won't come out with any charger that can supply that amount of power.

Makes no sense really. I'm actually hoping Apple can knock some sense into Intel and see this spec adjusted to something rational. As you note trying to supply a 100 watts per port would be next to impossible on a laptop and laptops are where TB would be most useful at this point. That is interfacing to high resolution displays in a plug and play environment.

Note to do a 100 watts they would have to raise the port voltage supply dramatically too. Other wise you would be drawing 20 amps at 5VDC. I think the Ethernet guys went to 42 volts (I must be getting old as this stuff gets foggy quickly). It makes me wonder too if TB 3 will be optical only.
post #46 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

We may not see new MBP until 2015.

It's one of their best-selling models, I reckon they'll go Haswell refresh with 800 series GPUs but if they plan to ditch the 13", they might update them at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I don't see a problem, all they need to do is keep the professional features on the 13"MBP. That is TB 2 ( 2 ports), faster graphics and a faster CPU in general. In fact it is about time the 13" MBP went quad core.

I thought a quad-i7 13" with Iris Pro would be quite good but it's a higher powered chip so they'd have to ship a different PSU for that model. Plus, how many people who want that raw performance would want a 13" screen? The reason for the power is productivity and 13" is small. I'd say a cheaper, lighter 15" model would be more appealing to lower-end buyers than a faster 13" model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I actually have problems with supplying that much power over flimsy cables and connectors.

Thunderbolt wouldn't be any more flimsy than mag-safe and it's not really all that much power for the Air at least. The Air has a 45W PSU but doesn't draw anywhere near that. That just helps it charge up faster. If the port supplied 20-30W, that would keep the MBA powered. The MBP would be a bit different but it depends on what it's being used for. The MBP is rated for 8 hours of use with a 95Wh battery so that's under 12Watts continuous. If it was being used under heavy load for long periods like with gaming, it would need to be supplied with much more. The 15" MBP ships with a 95W PSU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 
Five Thunderbolt ports down the side of a MacBook

They might struggle to find the PCIe lanes to support that but they don't have to all operate at full speed. A future revision of TB was also noted to be compatible with USB 3 so it may be possible to get TB to USB 3 cables in which case inexpensive USB 3 peripherals could plug into a TB port. For mice with USB adaptors, it would make sense to leave one USB port but certainly one of the existing USB ports could be switched for two more TB ports so you'd have 4x TB + USB 3 on the MBP and 3x TB + USB 3 on the Air.
post #47 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's one of their best-selling models, I reckon they'll go Haswell refresh with 800 series GPUs but if they plan to ditch the 13", they might update them at the same time.
Of course they could do something like that but it really wouldn't be the update many are hoping for. That coming die shrink would likely mean a very cool running but high performance computer.
Quote:

I thought a quad-i7 13" with Iris Pro would be quite good but it's a higher powered chip so they'd have to ship a different PSU for that model. Plus, how many people who want that raw performance would want a 13" screen? The reason for the power is productivity and 13" is small. I'd say a cheaper, lighter 15" model would be more appealing to lower-end buyers than a faster 13" model.
That is sorta of the point with waiting for Broadwell. Broadwell would potentially provide a processor cool enough to go into the 13". I say potential because it appear all bets are off and Intel isn't even sure what they will be shipping.

As for a faster 13" id certianly consider such a machine! Being small isn't always a problem and certainly isn't for the improving circuit density one can have. As such I really have an expectation that the 13" will go quad if Broadwell ever ships. The technology would be about right for that to happen.
Quote:

Thunderbolt wouldn't be any more flimsy than mag-safe and it's not really all that much power for the Air at least.
That is sorta my point. Mag Safe is far from a good example of something Apple has done well. The cable is unreliable in the sense that it breaks down at the Mag Safe connector and often runs hot.
Quote:
The Air has a 45W PSU but doesn't draw anywhere near that. That just helps it charge up faster. If the port supplied 20-30W, that would keep the MBA powered. The MBP would be a bit different but it depends on what it's being used for. The MBP is rated for 8 hours of use with a 95Wh battery so that's under 12Watts continuous. If it was being used under heavy load for long periods like with gaming, it would need to be supplied with much more. The 15" MBP ships with a 95W PSU.
There is some hope that Broadwell will help here if Apple stresses power savings. As you note though running flat out Intel laptop processors do use a lot of power. Generally I think such users should be running a desktop if they do that often.
Quote:

They might struggle to find the PCIe lanes to support that but they don't have to all operate at full speed. A future revision of TB was also noted to be compatible with USB 3 so it may be possible to get TB to USB 3 cables in which case inexpensive USB 3 peripherals could plug into a TB port. For mice with USB adaptors, it would make sense to leave one USB port but certainly one of the existing USB ports could be switched for two more TB ports so you'd have 4x TB + USB 3 on the MBP and 3x TB + USB 3 on the Air.

I don't see a lot of value in mixing port functionality keeping USB, USB and TB, TB; just makes it easier to understand the functionality of the machine. In the end I don't see multi function ports as a big problem I just see it as making the amchine inconvenient.

As for PCI Express lanes that is an interesting question and I don't really know what Intel has planned for the Broadwell lineup. I was under the impression that they had the intentions to integrate TB into the SOC. At least I heard something to that effect but that could be targeted for SkyLake.
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