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Wall Street doesn't see Google's I/O announcements posing a threat to Apple's ecosystem - Page 2

post #41 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

Wow... Wall Street NOT pooping all over Apple.

Welcome to Bizarro World.

 

Seeing as Wall Street are buying back into AAPL they'd rather not bite the hand that feeds. The whole thing is a sham anyway.

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post #42 of 74
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post
And Google could make the ads location-aware so if you are driving down the street your car could be talking to you... "Starbucks ahead ! Should I pull in?" or "You just passed McDonald's and your last chance for a McRib sandwich for the next 3.2 miles".

 

I mentioned something like that before, except that it would forcibly take you to those locations and refuse to move until you purchased something.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

IF...then Apple has most certainly lost any momentum they might have in developing nations. Something they desperately need to take command over in the coming years. IF this *open-source* hardware spec is fast and powerful and IF the android OS is optimized to these specs, IMO Apple has a lot to compete with. This idea of open source hardware in the sub-$100 range is exactly what developing nations run too. People in these markets are not loyal to, nor are concerned with ecosystems. They care about the all-in-one and price.

But...it's a wait and see right now.

"L" is basically a reaction to iOS 7.

I guarantee you that Apple remains the aspirational brand in the developing world and to the extent that a 3rd world country becomes more prosperous, then Apple's sales , market share, and profit in that country grows. And if some 3rd world country remains impoverished, why would Apple want to dominate a geographical region where no profits are to be made.

I do not understand this idea that Apple has to contest the third world market tooth and nail against Android. Apple cannot sell its integrated suite of products at a price that is affordable in the third world and generates worthwhile profits. It's just economically impossible. And even if it were, and I'm sure it's not, why would they do something that cheapens their brand and erases their aspirational status? It's just totally illogical.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Oh. . .
Nevermind then. 1embarassed.gif

In that case iOS8 could be considered by some as much a reaction to Android KitKat which could be considered a reaction to iOS7 which could be considered a reaction to Jellybean. . . 1wink.gif

They've all got their reactionary features.

I'm pretty sure 'reactionary' doesn't mean what you think it means.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawson100 View Post

Wait - do we care about Wall St opinion or not? I get confused in the head. Sometimes we don't and rail against their pronouncements. But today we do! Stop playing with my emotions AI.

 

From what I can gather, the rules are pretty simple:

 

1.  If they say bad things about Apple.  Bash them for being a bunch of idiots for not recognizing Apple superiority, and point out the flagrant bias and clear market manipulation of trying to drive the share price down.

 

2.  If they say good things about Apple.  Agree with them.   Accuse them of clear market manipulation because they are obviously only trying to drive things up before they drive them back down and are throwing out high numbers based purely on speculation!  Then contradict everything you just said by citing your personal target as being much higher than their estimates based upon your gut feelings.

 

3.  If they say neither anything good nor bad about Apple.  Accuse them of being biased against Apple because they are obviously talking about someone else.  How can they talk about someone else, and not talk about Apple?  Huh?  How?  An optional play here would be to throw in something about Tim Cook because he's obviously not making Wall Street talk about Apple.

post #46 of 74

For a laugh, have a read through this thread:

 

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/162893/new-android-rat-infects-google-play-apps-turning-phones-into-spyware-zombies

 

I have maintained all along (as well as a couple others) that Google Play Services cannot update all security flaws in Android. Yet several well known trolls here on AI claim I was wrong and that it does.

 

Now we find out at Google I/O that Google has expanded the capabilities of Google Play Services so that it can now do updates relating to security. Gee, why would Google have to add this ability if it was already there?

 

Here's a hint - because it NEVER was there. Sorry, just have to rub it in the faces of the trolls.

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post #47 of 74

No Shit, Wall Street Einsteins!!

 

BMW may pose a threat to Mercedes but an ugly Toyota Echo?!!

 

P.S. No offence to those Echo lovers ... :smokey:

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

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....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

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post #48 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

It’s pretty simple to understand: We care about it when it’s wrong. How’s that confusing?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post
 

 

From what I can gather, the rules are pretty simple:

 

1.  If they say bad things about Apple.  Bash them for being a bunch of idiots for not recognizing Apple superiority, and point out the flagrant bias and clear market manipulation of trying to drive the share price down.

 

2.  If they say good things about Apple.  Agree with them.   Accuse them of clear market manipulation because they are obviously only trying to drive things up before they drive them back down and are throwing out high numbers based purely on speculation!  Then contradict everything you just said by citing your personal target as being much higher than their estimates based upon your gut feelings.

 

3.  If they say neither anything good nor bad about Apple.  Accuse them of being biased against Apple because they are obviously talking about someone else.  How can they talk about someone else, and not talk about Apple?  Huh?  How?  An optional play here would be to throw in something about Tim Cook because he's obviously not making Wall Street talk about Apple.

 

LOL! Yeah. I'm just trolling. I know the temperature changes in here depending on the quoted analysts. It's like sports teams. There are people concerned with keeping score. I get it. I see these quotes and grab the bowl of popcorn.

post #49 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post
 

 

From what I can gather, the rules are pretty simple:

 

1.  If they say bad things about Apple.  . . .

 

2.  If they say good things about Apple.  . . .

 

3.  If they say neither anything good nor bad about Apple.  . . .

 

4. Actually care about technology itself and who is designing it right, making it easy to use for everyone, and making people's lives better through it.  Ignore what people who are mainly interested in market share/market capitalization/the word on the street/rumour mill/online buzz think.

 

Obviously a publicly traded company needs some measure to assign a valuation to it.  Business metrics are fine, they're just not my area of interest.  However, when the people who are focused on those metrics pretend to be technology visionaries, that's when I tune out.  Especially since there's risk of a financial motivation for doing so.

 

I mean, I certainly wouldn't go on public record making a statement about a company's business fundaments and whatnot, so why do financial people feel the need to go on record about technology?


Edited by auxio - 6/26/14 at 2:26pm
 
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post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post


And Google could make the ads location-aware so if you are driving down the street your car could be talking to you... "Starbucks ahead ! Should I pull in?" or "You just passed McDonald's and your last chance for a McRib sandwich for the next 3.2 miles".

I am looking forward to all the innovation.

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post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

For a laugh, have a read through this thread:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/162893/new-android-rat-infects-google-play-apps-turning-phones-into-spyware-zombies

I have maintained all along (as well as a couple others) that Google Play Services cannot update all security flaws in Android. Yet several well known trolls here on AI claim I was wrong and that it does.

Now we find out at Google I/O that Google has expanded the capabilities of Google Play Services so that it can now do updates relating to security. Gee, why would Google have to add this ability if it was already there?

Here's a hint - because it NEVER was there. Sorry, just have to rub it in the faces of the trolls.


One can't expand the capabilities of something that was never there. Some security flaws are within the skin put on by the manufacturer. There was a big flaw in Samsung's TouchWiz that allowed a hacker to completely wipe someone's Samsung device. Wake me when the sky finally falls down. Until then enjoy your FUDge.
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post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

"L" is basically a reaction to iOS 7.

 

Rotate the character "7" 180 degrees, and you have "L".  Hmm.

 

Also, I'm not the only person to hear "Android L" as "Android Hell", am I?

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post #53 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Yesterday some people were saying women were underrepresented in tech. After looking at that photo, is it any surprise? Just look at those guys.

That's not fair. Google Glass is supposed to be worn as a virginity keeper. lol.gif

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post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PScooter63 View Post

Also, I'm not the only person to hear "Android L" as "Android Hell", am I?

They were gonna call it "Android Toxic Hellstew"... but that name was already leaked.

1biggrin.gif
post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

And what are all those Google I/O attendees looking at (while being distracted by their Google Glass-es)?
Someone walked by with an iPhone...
post #56 of 74
There are two takeaways - a) basically they repeated everything Apple is doing by saying, We're offering it too! But ulimately it's like a Linux Developer's Conference or a TED talk - you it's all just a suggestion because Google doesn't even control the large majority of where Android is headed - Samsung, Amazon, Xiaomi and MS/Nokia all shoot off in their own direction so b) the only people really on board is Google's own phone group - Nexus and as far as we can tell, they seem to have sold a few hundred thousand phones in the past 5 years. Unlike when Apple announces and releases an OS upgrade, 80-90% of its users can upgrade - Android - a few % points IF your manufacturer allows it - and of course, SAmsung is also moving towards its own OS so again, the Google "developers" conference is more like a TED talk - listen to us, please! BUt really, very little changes.
post #57 of 74
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post
 


They should rename the event to "Glassholes Convention".  Twiddledee and Twiddledum on the far right looks like they are going to break their chairs.

This is a sad, sad photo.

 

Twiddledee: "We paid $1500 for Glass and they didn't even mention it in the keynote."

​Twiddledum: "Bummer, man.  We're not cool any more."

Everyone not at I/O: "Google Glass was never cool, you #Glassholes."

 

I've seen people in Mountain View wearing Glass, and I'm pretty sure they were all Googlers.  Fine.  The problem (for Google anyway) is that Google thinks that their employees are a good target market for their products.  Well-paid, 20-to-30-something, white male, uber-geek-wannabes with $1500 to blow on beta hardware toys.

 

Googlers obviously love Glass.  The rest of the population obviously doesn't.

 

(P.S.  I've worn my Daring Fireball t-shirt more than once when going to lunch in Mountain View.  Got some stink-eye.  Yeah, that was me.)

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post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

If Oprah was running Google, all the developers would have looked under their seats and found the keys to a new Google Self-Driving Car.

This would be a massive opportunity for Google developers - when the passengers are being driven by the car to their destination they don't have anything to do, so Android could just flash ads on the dashboard display screen for the riders to watch.

And Google could make the ads location-aware so if you are driving down the street your car could be talking to you... "Starbucks ahead ! Should I pull in?" or "You just passed McDonald's and your last chance for a McRib sandwich for the next 3.2 miles".

I am looking forward to all the innovation.

In GoogleWorld, you don't drive the car, the car drives you!

Also in GoogleWorld, you don't see the ads, the ads see you!

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post #59 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

From what I can gather, the rules are pretty simple:

1.  If they say bad things about Apple.  Bash them for being a bunch of idiots for not recognizing Apple superiority, and point out the flagrant bias and clear market manipulation of trying to drive the share price down.

2.  If they say good things about Apple.  Agree with them.   Accuse them of clear market manipulation because they are obviously only trying to drive things up before they drive them back down and are throwing out high numbers based purely on speculation!  Then contradict everything you just said by citing your personal target as being much higher than their estimates based upon your gut feelings.

3.  If they say neither anything good nor bad about Apple.  Accuse them of being biased against Apple because they are obviously talking about someone else.  How can they talk about someone else, and not talk about Apple?  Huh?  How?  An optional play here would be to throw in something about Tim Cook because he's obviously not making Wall Street talk about Apple.

Simple??? WTF??? That's way too many conditions!

The simple simple answer is: analysts are right when you agree with them, wrong when you don't.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

One can't expand the capabilities of something that was never there. Some security flaws are within the skin put on by the manufacturer. There was a big flaw in Samsung's TouchWiz that allowed a hacker to completely wipe someone's Samsung device. Wake me when the sky finally falls down. Until then enjoy your FUDge.

Always interesting to see who responds.

Google Play Services could update security faults in higher level stuff (like Google Apps or API's in Google Play) but that's it. And since so many security holes are lower level there's no way they could be fixed. Now it appears Google has a way for Google Play Services to update lower level OS components.

Which is EXACTLY what I've said all along.

Don't be upset you were one of those who claimed otherwise and have now been proven wrong. Perhaps in the future you, GG and the rest should stay out of technical discussions since you clearly lack the knowledge to engage in them.

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post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

Kit Kat came out a year ago with a bunch of new APIs... yet only 15% of Android devices have it. So what incentive is there for an Android developer to take advantage of all these new APIs?

Just to give you some context, I am an Apple user (iPad, iPhone, old iPods) that develops android apps just for fun. You are right about new API that will not become widespread for years, but there are some distinctions to be made. There are APIs related to the specific OS implementation and tightly linked to hardware, for example the UI framework with all those OS-wide UI animations: these API cannot be available in older OS versions. There APIs related to UI widgets used in apps UI, for example ActionBar introduced in Android 3.0: these APIs are made available to previous OS release through a compatibility library compiled in apps, some overhead for the developer, but viable. Then there are APIs related to services (mainly google services) such as gameAPI, driveAPI, ... and these APIs are automatically updated with the update of the PlayMarket app.

So, the situation of the APIs related to UI framework is quite bad, because all these good visual effects are actually hold back for years (developers often avoid to implement something just for a minority). The situation of the compatibility library is not good, but acceptable, because if you strongly want to use an API, there is a support for it, even if with some pain. Google play services are very good, because Play Market app is always updated on all devices (mandatory for installing apps).
post #62 of 74
NOTHING EXCITING at Yesterday's Google's Keynote Presentation OTHER THAN THIS !


San Francisco - Surprise Protesters Interrupt Google I/O



Protesters TWICE Interrupted Google's Keynote Presentation during its Annual Developers Conference, Google I/O 2014.


A Woman Interrupts Dave Burke's Presentation on Android L.



She Shouted, "You Need to Develop A CONSCIENCE, Google, before Google Glass and/or Self-Driving Car !"


TOO TRUE !

A Second Protester, A Man who Appeared to be in His Late 20s WARNED the Crowd that Google was "BUILDING TOTALITARIAN MACHINES that Kill People !"







post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Always interesting to see who responds.

Google Play Services could update security faults in higher level stuff (like Google Apps or API's in Google Play) but that's it. And since so many security holes are lower level there's no way they could be fixed. Now it appears Google has a way for Google Play Services to update lower level OS components.

Which is EXACTLY what I've said all along..

Who disagreed with you when you said it the first time Eric? I'm not aware of anyone here ever saying that Google could update hard-coded OS-level security via Play Services, tho they supposedly will now be doing so. I think you're only arguing with yourself.

EDIT: Here's a perfect summation of what I've stated about Google Play Services, It even mentions your point on OS kernel updates and from a thread you pointed to a few posts back:
"Most Google Android users are receiving security updates even languishing on old OS versions and Google still accounts for them. Kernel changes? Gotta have an OS update. we both agree on that. Security improvements? A lot can be done and is being done with no OS update required. We both should agree on that but you can't seem to bring yourself to admit it.. . ."
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/162893/new-android-rat-infects-google-play-apps-turning-phones-into-spyware-zombies/80#post_2483620

Interestingly enough you've come around to agree with me that some security enhancements and fixes were delivered via Play Services, (which is EXACTLY what I've said all along 1rolleyes.gif ) and with the latest update they'll be able to do even more to keep Google's Android devices secure despite manufacturers/carriers not bothering to update the OS itself. Google isn't allowing users of older Android devices to be abandoned security-wise, which was one of your big complaints. You should be giving them credit for that as it only improves everyone's mobile security.

You did get some disagreement when you made these erroneous statements yesterday. Perhaps that's what got you upset since all the "liar" posts of yours started around that time. No biggie to make a mistake. I've made some and so have you. I just don't resort to name-calling as a distraction when it happens.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/180894/google-looks-to-squeeze-apple-in-emerging-markets-with-new-android-one-program#post_2555578
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/27/14 at 1:33pm
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post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMETA View Post

NOTHING EXCITING at Yesterday's Google's Keynote Presentation OTHER THAN THIS !



San Francisco - Surprise Protesters Interrupt Google I/O



Protesters TWICE Interrupted Google's Keynote Presentation during its Annual Developers Conference, Google I/O 2014.


A Woman Interrupts Dave Burke's Presentation on Android L.



She Shouted, "You Need to Develop A CONSCIENCE, Google, before Google Glass and/or Self-Driving Car !"


TOO TRUE !

A Second Protester, A Man who Appeared to be in His Late 20s WARNED the Crowd that Google was "BUILDING TOTALITARIAN MACHINES that Kill People !"





Both protest had nothing to with Google themselves. It was because one of the lawyers Google employs Jack Halprin owns the building from which she was about to get evicted.

The second one was a generic 'computers kill people' statement with no direct reference to Google.
They just were looking for a stage and I/O was an opportunity.
Edited by Chipsy - 6/27/14 at 5:31am
post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMETA View Post

yada yada]

Protestor one would apparently like Google to interfere and tell one of their employees they can't buy a piece of property. Riiight. . . 1hmm.gif

Protester two should have been pleased that Google not only informed the DoD that they would not be developing for them but also snatched the winner of the Defense Dept's robotics challenge out of their hands. Cooperation with defense plans for any potential "killer robot" was snuffed out with Google's purchase of the robotics firms involved. That should get a thank you from him, tho I somehow doubt that's forthcoming.
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post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Always interesting to see who responds.

Google Play Services could update security faults in higher level stuff (like Google Apps or API's in Google Play) but that's it. And since so many security holes are lower level there's no way they could be fixed. Now it appears Google has a way for Google Play Services to update lower level OS components.

That is indeed correct (both what it could do before and now). It's definitely a good thing. It will not solve fragmentation but it definitely combats one of the biggest problems that is associated with fragmentation.
post #67 of 74
For one I don't care enough about the subject matter to get upset, and secondly I don't know enough about Google Play Services to contradict you, or anyone else that had doubts, so I never made that claim. I pointed out that your original post was contradictory, and so is this one. How can there be no way of doing something, and now all of a sudden there's a way?
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post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradipao View Post

Just to give you some context, I am an Apple user (iPad, iPhone, old iPods) that develops android apps just for fun. You are right about new API that will not become widespread for years, but there are some distinctions to be made. There are APIs related to the specific OS implementation and tightly linked to hardware, for example the UI framework with all those OS-wide UI animations: these API cannot be available in older OS versions. There APIs related to UI widgets used in apps UI, for example ActionBar introduced in Android 3.0: these APIs are made available to previous OS release through a compatibility library compiled in apps, some overhead for the developer, but viable. Then there are APIs related to services (mainly google services) such as gameAPI, driveAPI, ... and these APIs are automatically updated with the update of the PlayMarket app.

So, the situation of the APIs related to UI framework is quite bad, because all these good visual effects are actually hold back for years (developers often avoid to implement something just for a minority). The situation of the compatibility library is not good, but acceptable, because if you strongly want to use an API, there is a support for it, even if with some pain. Google play services are very good, because Play Market app is always updated on all devices (mandatory for installing apps).

Gotcha.... thanks for the detailed explanation!

I knew some stuff could be made available for older versions of Android... I just never knew exactly what. It sounds like the developer has to do a little extra work to ensure compatibility with older versions of Android.

I get a kick out of when people say "ZOMG Android has 80% market share"

It's true that 8 out of 10 smartphones sold today are running some version of Android. But for a developer... it's not exactly a seamless experience. There are many things they need to consider if they want to target that full 80%

Sure... you can make an app that runs all the way back to Gingerbread... but you might not be able to use all the goodies Google has provided to you lately.
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

You did get some disagreement when you made these erroneous statements yesterday. Perhaps that's what got you upset since all the "liar" posts of yours started around that time. No biggie to make a mistake. I've made some and so have you. I just don't resort to name-calling as a distraction when it happens.

 

There's a difference between making a mistake and knowing the truth but intentionally misrepresenting it to favor your position.

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post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

There's a difference between making a mistake and knowing the truth but intentionally misrepresenting it to favor your (or your employers) position.

Since you show no intention of looking for my previous comments on Google Play Services I did it for you. I quoted for you my exact claims from back in March in post 63 above, and from the topic we had a long discussion about this in If you're going to continue with clams I was being dishonest perhaps you could point out the exact part now that it's right in front of you.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/162893/new-android-rat-infects-google-play-apps-turning-phones-into-spyware-zombies/80#post_2483620
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/28/14 at 12:39pm
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post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post
 
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post
 

 

And what are all those Google I/O attendees looking at (while being distracted by their Google Glass-es)?

 

 

 

Where's a lady with a sledgehammer when you need one?

 

They're not being distracted by their Google Glasses; they're being distracted from their Glasses.

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post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PScooter63 View Post

Also, I'm not the only person to hear "Android L" as "Android Hell", am I?

They were gonna call it "Android Toxic Hellstew"... but that name was already leaked.

1biggrin.gif

 

Hey - that was my joke! Scrip the Crib.

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post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

From what I can gather, the rules are pretty simple:

1.  If they say bad things about Apple.  Bash them for being a bunch of idiots for not recognizing Apple superiority, and point out the flagrant bias and clear market manipulation of trying to drive the share price down.

2.  If they say good things about Apple.  Agree with them.   Accuse them of clear market manipulation because they are obviously only trying to drive things up before they drive them back down and are throwing out high numbers based purely on speculation!  Then contradict everything you just said by citing your personal target as being much higher than their estimates based upon your gut feelings.

3.  If they say neither anything good nor bad about Apple.  Accuse them of being biased against Apple because they are obviously talking about someone else.  How can they talk about someone else, and not talk about Apple?  Huh?  How?  An optional play here would be to throw in something about Tim Cook because he's obviously not making Wall Street talk about Apple.

Simple??? WTF??? That's way too many conditions!

The simple simple answer is: analysts are right when you agree with them, wrong when you don't.

 

No-one's interested in the simple answer, only the correct one: analysts are always wrong.

"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
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post #74 of 74
More evidence that Google is taking control of their Android platform, "saving OEM's from themselves" as Ars put it.

In addition to their new Android One program Google announced yesterday that Android TV, Android Wear and Android Car will also have consistent interfaces within product lines. Manufacturers will not be allowed to add their own "skins" as they had been doing with smartphones. It won't prevent the addition of specific services to differentiate one from another but the basic operation and software versions will be the same from one to another.

What that means is a user of Android Car in a Hyundai will find the same UI he's familiar with in a Mercedes. If you own one Android Wear watch buying another one eliminates the learning curve as both will have software that operates in the same way. An Android TV in the living room will work the same as the one in the den. Consistency across devices.

It also puts Google firmly in control of updates rather than manufacturers. An update for one will apply to all the others as well, largely eliminating the fragmentation that smartphones suffered. Absolutely a step in the right direction and a sign Google is serious about these new Android product lines.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/android-wear-auto-and-tv-save-you-from-skins-and-oems-from-themselves/
Edited by Gatorguy - 6/29/14 at 6:29am
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