or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple, Inc. employees pass out free iTunes song cards at San Francisco LGBT Pride Parade
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple, Inc. employees pass out free iTunes song cards at San Francisco LGBT Pride Parade - Page 4

post #121 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post


You missed the whole point of my post... Apple should be an "ally" to which special interest group next then?

Apple makes phones in China... How does this support tibetan buddhists? One could argue they have been subjugated by China. So tibetans are not as worthy of attention why? Because not enough tibetans work for apple or what?

Marching for one community cause but not another? What makes the LGBT crowd more deserving of my attention than any number of other "causes"?

Should muslims and jews and christians stop buying apple products next in protest?

HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT SHAREHOLDERS for a company to put its name on the line for minority causes? Once apple went public its duty became THE SHAREHOLDERS, not the shareholders that support LGBT causes.

I am not saying apple employees cant support whatever causes they want to... Just don't do it on the shareholder's dime. Maybe pick causes that benefit everyone in the human race, not just a few people whose brains are wired a certain way.

Do you consider business a special interest group?

post #122 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
 

 

It doesn't really matter. iTunes gives away a song every week and Starbucks does pretty much the same thing. If I were at this parade, I'd have been offended at the cheapness of the Apple gesture. I'm sure they have spent more on creamer this year for the staff coffee.

 

 

You'd do well to inform yourself as well. Just because part of a group is the "winner" in the game of life doesn't mean a large part of the same group isn't the "loser" of the same game. 97% of all workplaces deaths are men. Men have a 600% higher suicide rate. White men only live as long as black women and are outlived by white women by 8 years. Men as a whole are only 40% of college students. Check the percentage of men who are in prison, who work in the worst and most damaging jobs, etc. See who works the most hours, goes to prison more in terms of gender, etc.

 

Also check your facts, in California, white males and white overall are not the majority or even the majority minority. You are operating from a dated and antiquated set of assumptions.

 

 

I'd suspect if your time is worth anything, even minimum wage that the time you've spent being outraged is worth more than the card they gave out.

 

 

I felt this exact response this year when reading about the graduation ceremonies at a state college local to me. CSUSB. The college had a separate ceremony for Latino students, but they are over 55% of the student body and the entire campus was only 17% white. To complain that 40% of that 17% (aka white males) are keeping everyone down is ridiculous. Likewise screaming that you need a minority representation ceremony and separate graduation when you are 55% of the student body is equally ridiculous. If that 55% were white we all know how this would play out. Now that it is 55% Hispanic, the rules change.

 

 

I think you are conflating different concepts of race. There are races like you mention, caucasoid and negroid as examples but the European concept of race is more about country and nationality. Italians and Irish were certainly not considered equals in ability and stature to the English who largely founded America by said English. They were considered lower and inferior races by the English. This is also true of most other "races" outside of the United States when discussing racial matters. You would see Cambodians and Filipinos be deeply offended if you considered them the same race. You might even end up in a fight.

 

 

You really need to do some reading. The ignorance in this post is a bit insulting. There is a strong and well known history of Anti-Irish and Anti-Italian sentiment in the U.S.

So what's your point? That discrimination happens to many, so no one should point out that it is happening to a specific group of people? Or do anything to bring attention to that or legally combat it? Or is it just to convolute an argument that you don't agree with?

post #123 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

If by privately you mean on his blog with the Mozilla logo on it, I agree with you. There was nothing private about what he did. He made his statements publicly and as an official representative of the company. If he wanted to be able to say whatever he wanted for the company, he should not have sold a controlling interest in it....

I not sure where you found he used a company blog (source)? It was a one time personal campaign a contribution he made six years ago for the support of Proposition 8 defining marriage between a man and a women (only 7 million voted). The guy was unfairly punished and forced to step down. Where was the intolerance be for Obama before he flip flop on the issue to shore up his base? So was President Obama a bigot back when he supported marriage as the union of a man and woman? How about Hillary before she flip flop because it was political expedient? There's a lot more example to be found.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/transcript-robin-roberts-abc-news-interview-president-obama/story?id=16316043&singlePage=true

It's not that people can respectfully agree to disagree on definition of marriage...it becomes a problem when they (the homosexual moment) attacked those who do not conform to their views on homosexuality. As a whole they will go out of their way to destroy the reputation and livelihood of those who dare hold the belief that marriage should be reserved for a man and a women. Disrespect,intolerance and bullying are the new norm for the homosexual movement. In the state I live in homosexual lobbyist introduced masquerading as anti bullying legislation which would punish kids who respectfully disagree with them and send them to "reeducation classes" (a.k.a. brainwashing)...oh look at all the tolerance. 1rolleyes.gif
post #124 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJohnWhorfin View Post
 

It's so tiresome to read the same idiotic comments that have been brought up and debated into every single courtroom only to be debunked time after time after time. Why don't you educate yourself instead of pontificating like a complete imbecile and making an ass of yourself in public.

What can you debunk? To say only a man and woman can procreate is hardly something up for debate. That's the part of my post you quoted. Maybe you need a sex education class. The reason laws get overturned in court has to do with our extremely liberal court system. These laws aren't about two people loving each other they are about gays getting the same federal benefits as everyone else that is married. Try to educated yourself because that was the issue in front of the SCOTUS. 

 

Like I said in some of my previous posts on here, while the US may not be the best when it comes to civil liberties take a look at other countries and maybe focus on the real problems around the world. To end all this bullshit our federal government needs to grow some balls and simply create one law for the entire US instead of letting the states battle over this stupid issue. 

 

The fact that this world was become so screwed up that we actually have to define marriage at a federal level is the really sad and pathetic issue. You act like settling something in a courtroom makes the judgment correct. Like to see your point of view on that when ti comes to Apple vs Samsung. 

 

People want to argue that it is natural to be gay, the last time i checked natural means intended by nature. Taking all religion out of the picture being gay was clearly not intended by nature. If the majority of humans were gay guess what you and I wouldn't be having this debate because we wouldn't be here. Religion has nothing to do with this topic it has everything to do with nature and the survival of a species. Which is really hard to argue or debate. 

 

Lets stop pretending this is a civil rights issue, it's a federal benefits issue. It's a civil rights humanitarian issue when people are being killed or put in jail because they are gay. Which again I point out the US isn't on that list. However I wonder how many on this forum live in a country that is on that list. Let Tim Cook go over to Iran and fight this issue, it would take about two days before his head came back in a box. 

post #125 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
 

 

It doesn't really matter. iTunes gives away a song every week and Starbucks does pretty much the same thing. If I were at this parade, I'd have been offended at the cheapness of the Apple gesture. I'm sure they have spent more on creamer this year for the staff coffee.

 

 

You'd do well to inform yourself as well. Just because part of a group is the "winner" in the game of life doesn't mean a large part of the same group isn't the "loser" of the same game. 97% of all workplaces deaths are men. Men have a 600% higher suicide rate. White men only live as long as black women and are outlived by white women by 8 years. Men as a whole are only 40% of college students. Check the percentage of men who are in prison, who work in the worst and most damaging jobs, etc. See who works the most hours, goes to prison more in terms of gender, etc.

 

Also check your facts, in California, white males and white overall are not the majority or even the majority minority. You are operating from a dated and antiquated set of assumptions.

 

 

I'd suspect if your time is worth anything, even minimum wage that the time you've spent being outraged is worth more than the card they gave out.

 

 

I felt this exact response this year when reading about the graduation ceremonies at a state college local to me. CSUSB. The college had a separate ceremony for Latino students, but they are over 55% of the student body and the entire campus was only 17% white. To complain that 40% of that 17% (aka white males) are keeping everyone down is ridiculous. Likewise screaming that you need a minority representation ceremony and separate graduation when you are 55% of the student body is equally ridiculous. If that 55% were white we all know how this would play out. Now that it is 55% Hispanic, the rules change.

 

 

I think you are conflating different concepts of race. There are races like you mention, caucasoid and negroid as examples but the European concept of race is more about country and nationality. Italians and Irish were certainly not considered equals in ability and stature to the English who largely founded America by said English. They were considered lower and inferior races by the English. This is also true of most other "races" outside of the United States when discussing racial matters. You would see Cambodians and Filipinos be deeply offended if you considered them the same race. You might even end up in a fight.

 

 

You really need to do some reading. The ignorance in this post is a bit insulting. There is a strong and well known history of Anti-Irish and Anti-Italian sentiment in the U.S.

So what's your point? That discrimination happens to many, so no one should point out that it is happening to a specific group of people? Or do anything to bring attention to that or legally combat it? Or is it just to convolute an argument that you don't agree with?

 

My point is that it isn't appropriate to arbitrarily assign groups and then ignore their rights using a historical grievance to invalidate their rights.

 

Some people in the thread are being told to basically take their ball and go home if they don't like the actions of Cook. (Go get your own parade, sell the stock, go away.) However if they really did follow the advice, it is also considered inappropriate in many cases. If they held a straight pride parade or a white pride parade, it would be decried.

 

The reasoning and logic has to flow both ways. It can't flow one way and then conveniently stop the other way.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #126 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post

What can you debunk? To say only a man and woman can procreate is hardly something up for debate. That's the part of my post you quoted. Maybe you need a sex education class. The reason laws get overturned in court has to do with our extremely liberal court system. These laws aren't about two people loving each other they are about gays getting the same federal benefits as everyone else that is married. Try to educated yourself because that was the issue in front of the SCOTUS. 

Like I said in some of my previous posts on here, while the US may not be the best when it comes to civil liberties take a look at other countries and maybe focus on the real problems around the world. To end all this bullshit our federal government needs to grow some balls and simply create one law for the entire US instead of letting the states battle over this stupid issue. 

The fact that this world was become so screwed up that we actually have to define marriage at a federal level is the really sad and pathetic issue. You act like settling something in a courtroom makes the judgment correct. Like to see your point of view on that when ti comes to Apple vs Samsung. 

People want to argue that it is natural to be gay, the last time i checked natural means intended by nature. Taking all religion out of the picture being gay was clearly not intended by nature. If the majority of humans were gay guess what you and I wouldn't be having this debate because we wouldn't be here. Religion has nothing to do with this topic it has everything to do with nature and the survival of a species. Which is really hard to argue or debate. 

Lets stop pretending this is a civil rights issue, it's a federal benefits issue. It's a civil rights humanitarian issue when people are being killed or put in jail because they are gay. Which again I point out the US isn't on that list. However I wonder how many on this forum live in a country that is on that list. Let Tim Cook go over to Iran and fight this issue, it would take about two days before his head came back in a box. 

Nature has more imagination than you do. There's lots of sexual play among males in several species, probably among females as well. I'm not an expert.

What's near universal among all higher species is what we would call affection or love. Get over it. You are making yourself obsolete.
post #127 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Because an Apple-centric site got a couple shots of Apple employees with T-shirts/Banners (as hundreds of other companies did) at a rally of MILLIONS of people, this is defined as Apple "hikacking" the parade. 

I sometimes wonder if an actual sentient human being is behind these types of moronic posts. 

Also, I'm thinking of dropping out of these forums. The ratio of stupidity to rationality has gotten shockingly high. Most threads seem to be composed of nothing but drive-by-trolling, slobbering Apple haters, or people like Apple ][ who jumps at the opportunity to spout his hateful, bigoted agenda (I think he has a daily Muslim-bashing quota to meet) which he attempts to mask at something else. Then there's the random sane comment from regular posters thrown in here and there. 

Yes, it's depressing to see how backward some still are, but no, you can't leave us here to deal with this alone. You know how we still remember T.H. Huxley as Darwin's Bulldog? That's how you'll be remembered here if you stick around.

As for Apple ][, he's here to make Apple fans look bad so that it can't be said that we're progressive people. Just look at him—he "proves" that Apple people can be as stupid and barbaric as any other redneck cracker peckerwood group, even though he's in New York. Conrad Joe, the professional troll who was here for a run, once said Apple ][ was being paid to trash the reputation of the readership here. I've found no better way to explain the level of his barbarity. It's all fake. He even says he has a mother, and he spells correctly. Incompatible with his "opinions."
post #128 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post


People want to argue that it is natural to be gay, the last time i checked natural means intended by nature. Taking all religion out of the picture being gay was clearly not intended by nature. If the majority of humans were gay guess what you and I wouldn't be having this debate because we wouldn't be here.

Where did you check to find that natural means "intended by nature"? (My emphasis)

You assume to "know the mind" of nature. Obviously the majority of humans are not gay, so had you considered that nature "intended" it that way by keeping the heterosexual / homosexual balance at its current ratio? (I realise I'm being very black and white over human sexuality here for the sake of the discussion) The human species now numbers over 7 billion. Maybe nature "intends" to increase the proportion of us queers to reduce the human burden on the planet ...

As far as I'm aware, the majority of humans throughout recorded history have been, for the sake of argument, heterosexual. Also, through that same period, there have always been a sizeable number of people who are not. Seems like maybe Mother Nature planned it that way all along. 1cool.gif
post #129 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
 

 

My point is that it isn't appropriate to arbitrarily assign groups and then ignore their rights using a historical grievance to invalidate their rights.

 

Some people in the thread are being told to basically take their ball and go home if they don't like the actions of Cook. (Go get your own parade, sell the stock, go away.) However if they really did follow the advice, it is also considered inappropriate in many cases. If they held a straight pride parade or a white pride parade, it would be decried.

 

The reasoning and logic has to flow both ways. It can't flow one way and then conveniently stop the other way.

The point is no one is stoping them from doing any of those things (white parade). They have the right to have their specialized parade, but to inject a hypothetical with no evidence (white parade) & call that evidence of somehow being slighted isn't really an argument that has any legs. Tim Cook also has the right to exercise his freedoms as an American citizen. Aren't a lot of these same people that you are defending saying that Tim Cook or some at Apple have no right to have a point of view? I'm somewhat sure Apple didn't make it mandatory for employees to have to go to the Gay Pride parade. You're absolutely correct it flows both ways...but that doesn't mean that every point of view is valid or relevant, especially if there is no basis in fact to back it up. We can all make up what if scenarios. 


Edited by Splif - 6/30/14 at 2:30pm
post #130 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
 

 

My point is that it isn't appropriate to arbitrarily assign groups and then ignore their rights using a historical grievance to invalidate their rights.

 

Some people in the thread are being told to basically take their ball and go home if they don't like the actions of Cook. (Go get your own parade, sell the stock, go away.) However if they really did follow the advice, it is also considered inappropriate in many cases. If they held a straight pride parade or a white pride parade, it would be decried.

 

The reasoning and logic has to flow both ways. It can't flow one way and then conveniently stop the other way.

The point is no one is stoping them from doing any of those things (white parade). They have the right to have their specialized parade, but to inject a hypothetical with no evidence (white parade) & call that evidence of somehow being slighted isn't really an argument that has any legs. Tim Cook also has the right to exercise his freedoms as an American citizen. Aren't a lot of these same people that you are defending saying that Tim Cook or some at Apple have no right to have a point of view? I'm somewhat sure Apple didn't make it mandatory for employees to have to go to the Gay Pride parade. You're absolutely correct it flows both ways...but that doesn't mean that every point of view is valid or relevant, especially if there is no basis in fact to back it up. We can all make up what if scenarios. 

 

Actually there are lots of clear examples of people being stopped. There are lawsuits for officers participating in a St. Patrick's Day parade considered to be anti-gay from what I recall. There was also a lawsuit where four firefighters were ordered to participate in a gay pride parade and declared they were sexually harassed. There have also been lawsuits by people wanting to hand out Bibles or respectfully protest who have been stopped. These aren't what if scenarios. They are or were in the courts. So there are lawsuits all around about who is allowed to protest, participate and even forced to participate in such parades. A parade requires a permit. If the city refuses the permit, then you can be arrested for having the parade.

 

It isn't the same both ways. Black pride parades would be confronted by people would be labeled as racist. White pride parades would be confronted by people labeled as anti-racist. The same labels would and should apply both ways.

 

Likewise we all know that everyone applauding Tim's participation on the pride parade are also applauding the Supreme Court decision regarding Hobby Lobby. Thus he can hand out iTunes cards and even contraception, but the government can't mandate that he hand them out, nor can they mandate that Hobby Lobby undertake such actions either.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #131 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Actually there are lots of clear examples of people being stopped. There are lawsuits for officers participating in a St. Patrick's Day parade considered to be anti-gay from what I recall. There was also a lawsuit where four firefighters were ordered to participate in a gay pride parade and declared they were sexually harassed. There have also been lawsuits by people wanting to hand out Bibles or respectfully protest who have been stopped. These aren't what if scenarios. They are or were in the courts. So there are lawsuits all around about who is allowed to protest, participate and even forced to participate in such parades. A parade requires a permit. If the city refuses the permit, then you can be arrested for having the parade.

Do you have links to the court cases? Were they found guilty?
post #132 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post
 

I don't think being homosexual (or heterosexual for that matter) is something to be proud of. Pride is when you set yourself a difficult (but achievable) goal and then work hard, have self discipline, and finally, after much effort, achieve it. That feeling you get then is pride. What they are talking about is more being "Unashamed" or "Guilt free" which is not the same concept. 

Of course...nothing has been achieved?!? Is it okay to be proud of your nationality? Seems like a narrow definition of the word pride.

post #133 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Actually there are lots of clear examples of people being stopped. There are lawsuits for officers participating in a St. Patrick's Day parade considered to be anti-gay from what I recall. There was also a lawsuit where four firefighters were ordered to participate in a gay pride parade and declared they were sexually harassed. There have also been lawsuits by people wanting to hand out Bibles or respectfully protest who have been stopped. These aren't what if scenarios. They are or were in the courts. So there are lawsuits all around about who is allowed to protest, participate and even forced to participate in such parades. A parade requires a permit. If the city refuses the permit, then you can be arrested for having the parade.

Do you have links to the court cases? Were they found guilty?

 

Haven't always followed up on all of them. Just part of the daily browsing.....however searches turn up the following...

 

The firefighters won and have had the verdict upheld. If there is more recent news you can dig for it.

 

The Bible's being passed out initially lost but has won on appeal. I'd bet there is still more action waiting.

 

There is a new lawsuit being threatened regarding the St. Patrick's parade. I don't know the particulars of the old one.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #134 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
 

 

Actually there are lots of clear examples of people being stopped. There are lawsuits for officers participating in a St. Patrick's Day parade considered to be anti-gay from what I recall. There was also a lawsuit where four firefighters were ordered to participate in a gay pride parade and declared they were sexually harassed. There have also been lawsuits by people wanting to hand out Bibles or respectfully protest who have been stopped. These aren't what if scenarios. They are or were in the courts. So there are lawsuits all around about who is allowed to protest, participate and even forced to participate in such parades. A parade requires a permit. If the city refuses the permit, then you can be arrested for having the parade.

 

It isn't the same both ways. Black pride parades would be confronted by people would be labeled as racist. White pride parades would be confronted by people labeled as anti-racist. The same labels would and should apply both ways.

 

Likewise we all know that everyone applauding Tim's participation on the pride parade are also applauding the Supreme Court decision regarding Hobby Lobby. Thus he can hand out iTunes cards and even contraception, but the government can't mandate that he hand them out, nor can they mandate that Hobby Lobby undertake such actions either.

Okay...how did those cases turn out? What you have given me is an argument that people do things that are not right sometimes & they go to court over it. We are talking about this specific situation. What it seems to me that you are trying to do is dilute the conversation with situations that you do not back up with any of the outcomes of those situations. Somehow I guess that you think that everything that you mention is somehow only thought of by one side or the other as being fair? 

 

Black pride parades are probably confronted by some people that are racist & some that are not, Irish pride parades (aren't they white?), Italian American parades ( I am an Italian-American are we considered white now? I was never really sure of that nor do I give a shit), the Black Panthers showed armed up at the Governor's ( Ronnie Reagan) mansion in the sixties. They were within their rights to do that what happened with that situation?

http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2013/01/black_panthers_and_gun_control_the_nras_flip_flop.html

 

"White pride parades would be confronted by people labeled as anti-racist."

That's because that nomenclature has already been co-opted by white racist movements. Do a Google search on white pride...what results do you get? I bet there would have no problem with a European American parade. Sometimes words matter, maybe that's not fair but that's life.

 

Does Hobby Lobby own the insurance company that pays for the procedures? Since when is it the right of any religion to impose it's beliefs on the rest of society through law. I think the Supreme court made a huge mistake here. I think they voted ideology over constitution. Only certain corporations have this right because of the owner's religious beliefs? Really, should he have to prove that all the actions that the company takes are inline with his religious beliefs? I bet my lives savings that they are not. If you don't believe in contraception...then don't use contraception. If you don't believe in Sharia law then don't practice Sharia law but please don't impose those beliefs on the rest of the country through law. Your religious beliefs are you're right. That is not the same thing as what happened here. Talk about a slippery slope.

post #135 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post



It is the DUTY of a publicly traded company to act in the best interest of customers and SHAREHOLDERS while following all laws and regulations ... not supporting other special interest groups helter skelter.

 

 

"Special interest groups"? I'm sorry, but it's not as though Apple is joining a parade for big oil, the gun lobby, or the sex workers alliance. They are simply - very simply - making a stand for equal civil rights in society.

 

I think it's worth keeping that in perspective. Now, sure, if you don't agree with the principles that Apple supports (e.g. civil rights, environmental responsibility and so on), then I can see why you'd be upset. But if that's the case, then I think you probably have bigger fish to fry (e.g. society at large) rather than one specific corporation.

 

From my perspective - as a pretty avid consumer of Apple products - I do expect major corporations to have a sense of social responsibility. I would be disappointed if companies like Apple (which are centered around innovation and fresh thinking) didn't foster this kind of culture among their employees.

 

Again, I might have some sympathy with your view if Apple were supporting something that was very cynically about self-interest or that had a destructive impact on society. But they are doing neither of these things. So...honestly, deal with it.


Edited by Ingsoc - 6/30/14 at 4:22pm
post #136 of 197

The issue of the St. Patrick's Parade is that they won't allow gay groups to march. The organizers contend that the parade is strictly in celebration of Irish culture. Gays are most welcome to march just not in a banner carrying LGBT group.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #137 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post

Okay...how did those cases turn out? What you have given me is an argument that people do things that are not right sometimes & they go to court over it. We are talking about this specific situation. What it seems to me that you are trying to do is dilute the conversation with situations that you do not back up with any of the outcomes of those situations. Somehow I guess that you think that everything that you mention is somehow only thought of by one side or the other as being fair? 

Black pride parades are probably confronted by some people that are racist & some that are not, Irish pride parades (aren't they white?), Italian American parades ( I am an Italian-American are we considered white now? I was never really sure of that nor do I give a shit), the Black Panthers showed armed up at the Governor's ( Ronnie Reagan) mansion in the sixties. They were within their rights to do that what happened with that situation?
http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2013/01/black_panthers_and_gun_control_the_nras_flip_flop.html

"White pride parades would be confronted by people labeled as anti-racist."
That's because that nomenclature has already been co-opted by white racist movements. Do a Google search on white pride...what results do you get? I bet there would have no problem with a European American parade. Sometimes words matter, maybe that's not fair but that's life.

Does Hobby Lobby own the insurance company that pays for the procedures? Since when is it the right of any religion to impose it's beliefs on the rest of society through law. I think the Supreme court made a huge mistake here. I think they voted ideology over constitution. Only certain corporations have this right because of the owner's religious beliefs? Really, should he have to prove that all the actions that the company takes are inline with his religious beliefs? I bet my lives savings that they are not. If you don't believe in contraception...then don't use contraception. If you don't believe in Sharia law then don't practice Sharia law but please don't impose those beliefs on the rest of the country through law. Your religious beliefs are you're right. That is not the same thing as what happened here. Talk about a slippery slope.

What if for some reason the majority of the employees at Hobby Lobby were gay/lesbian, and felt that paying for contraceptives was unfair because there's no way for them to get pregnant?
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #138 of 197

One thing that hasn't really been pointed out is how upset people would be if Apple hadn't attended.  Since so many other companies had a showing here, what would it say about Apple if they hadn't show up after publicly stating that they support diversity.
 
Anyone upset with Apple attending needs to not act surprised.  If you invested in them, then you did so knowing their public stance on environmental, diversity, and support for the LGBT community.  Also, as I said before, they joined a large number of corporations that also attend LGBT pride parades across the country.
 
Starbucks, Intel, Google, Chrysler, Airbnb, Apple, Oracle, Virgin America, Kaiser Permanente, Safeway.  The list goes on.
http://www.mercurynews.com/samesexmarriage/ci_26047890/from-apple-virgin-america-corporate-involvement-at-gay
 
So to have a problem with Apple showing up is a problem with any corporation showing up.  So if the problem is with Apple showing up, then you can pretty much can it. That's not what want to hear if you disagree with their presence there, but that doesn't change that the fact that it wasn't anything surprising, unexpected, or unprecedented.

post #139 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

Okay...how did those cases turn out? What you have given me is an argument that people do things that are not right sometimes & they go to court over it. We are talking about this specific situation. What it seems to me that you are trying to do is dilute the conversation with situations that you do not back up with any of the outcomes of those situations. Somehow I guess that you think that everything that you mention is somehow only thought of by one side or the other as being fair?

 

I cited a few cases above with regard to how they turned out. The point is that it doesn't really matter how it turned out as long as it is applied both ways. Don't tell someone to take their ball and then go home, but then declare they can't have the ball because they are hateful. I'll note your own hypocrisy on this below.

 

Quote:
Black pride parades are probably confronted by some people that are racist & some that are not, Irish pride parades (aren't they white?), Italian American parades ( I am an Italian-American are we considered white now? I was never really sure of that nor do I give a shit), the Black Panthers showed armed up at the Governor's ( Ronnie Reagan) mansion in the sixties. They were within their rights to do that what happened with that situation?

http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2013/01/black_panthers_and_gun_control_the_nras_flip_flop.html

 

"White pride parades would be confronted by people labeled as anti-racist."

That's because that nomenclature has already been co-opted by white racist movements. Do a Google search on white pride...what results do you get? I bet there would have no problem with a European American parade. Sometimes words matter, maybe that's not fair but that's life.

 

Well as I noted in another post, "race" is considered different things by different people. If you went to an Englishman as an Irishman and declared you were the same race, you'd have a fight on your hands. In the U.S. race is based more on color but in many other countries it is about variations in color and also religion and ethnicity. Irish were not considered English and certain as most were Catholic were not considered part of the Protestant in the WAS(P) designation. The same is true of Italiams. However when you need to create an "us" vs "them" people start tossing groups all around regardless of label just to try to score political points. Thus Italians and Irish who were not considered English and Protestant are now conveniently "white" and pitted against other interests. Italians in particular made their way into the country through construction trades, farming, and an increasing number of athletes and entertainment figures. Think about what other groups are doing that now.

 

Quote:
 Does Hobby Lobby own the insurance company that pays for the procedures? Since when is it the right of any religion to impose it's beliefs on the rest of society through law. I think the Supreme court made a huge mistake here. I think they voted ideology over constitution. Only certain corporations have this right because of the owner's religious beliefs? Really, should he have to prove that all the actions that the company takes are inline with his religious beliefs? I bet my lives savings that they are not. If you don't believe in contraception...then don't use contraception. If you don't believe in Sharia law then don't practice Sharia law but please don't impose those beliefs on the rest of the country through law. Your religious beliefs are you're right. That is not the same thing as what happened here. Talk about a slippery slope.

 

You've got it completely backwards and prove the point about hypocrisy and the concerns others express with Apple above. Hobby Lobby is a private company with no shareholders to report to at all. They asked not to be excused from all contraception but instead from contraception that works after an egg has been fertilized but before it is implanted. They consider it religiously to be murder. The government had a least restrictive option, to simply as the government, provide the service themselves and tax others for that service. This is the way the government does most things. Thus when people declare they don't want to pay for wars, they are making the argument about direct taxes to government being used for a government purpose.

 

The health care mandate was VERY different. It mandated private companies provide certain services for their employees since the government wouldn't do it. It takes the typical argument about the value of government and turns it on its head. Arguments like "You don't expect everyone to pay for their own private roads do you?" instead become government mandating everyone build a road.

 

The decision allows the government to still tax companies like Hobby Lobby and use the taxes to pay for any form of contraception the government wishes to provide. The government can even use it to put puppies into a wood chipper and call it art. Likewise Hobby Lobby has not made any law nor imposed any law on anyone. Their lawsuit win does not prohibit any company from providing any coverage they desire. Freedom of religion is a basic right like voting and speech. The case for infringing on it must meet a very high bar, much like how high the bar is for legislating against something like... homosexual marriage. Basic rights and the bar government must climb to infringe on those rights do not go up and down depending upon the issue and whether one likes it or not. Tim Cook is free to hand out iTunes cards and the CEO of Hobby Lobby should be free to hand out Bibles right next to Tim Cook.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #140 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

As for Apple ][, he's here to make Apple fans look bad so that it can't be said that we're progressive people. Just look at him—he "proves" that Apple people can be as stupid and barbaric as any other redneck cracker peckerwood group, even though he's in New York. Conrad Joe, the professional troll who was here for a run, once said Apple ][ was being paid to trash the reputation of the readership here. I've found no better way to explain the level of his barbarity. It's all fake. He even says he has a mother, and he spells correctly. Incompatible with his "opinions."

 

Believe it or not, people of all stripes like Apple and use their devices. The typical stereotype that all Mac users are liberals is not accurate at all, and I'm glad to do my part in dispelling that myth. There are many famous and high profile non-liberals who are Apple users. Unless somebody is completely ignorant, I'm not sure why that should be a big surprise to anybody.

 

I see that you're still clinging to your ridiculous and laughable theory that I'm somehow a paid troll, and the source for your ludicrous assertion is "Conrad Joe".:lol: 

post #141 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
 

 

I cited a few cases above with regard to how they turned out. The point is that it doesn't really matter how it turned out as long as it is applied both ways. Don't tell someone to take their ball and then go home, but then declare they can't have the ball because they are hateful. I'll note your own hypocrisy on this below.

 

 

Well as I noted in another post, "race" is considered different things by different people. If you went to an Englishman as an Irishman and declared you were the same race, you'd have a fight on your hands. In the U.S. race is based more on color but in many other countries it is about variations in color and also religion and ethnicity. Irish were not considered English and certain as most were Catholic were not considered part of the Protestant in the WAS(P) designation. The same is true of Italiams. However when you need to create an "us" vs "them" people start tossing groups all around regardless of label just to try to score political points. Thus Italians and Irish who were not considered English and Protestant are now conveniently "white" and pitted against other interests. Italians in particular made their way into the country through construction trades, farming, and an increasing number of athletes and entertainment figures. Think about what other groups are doing that now.

 

 

You've got it completely backwards and prove the point about hypocrisy and the concerns others express with Apple above. Hobby Lobby is a private company with no shareholders to report to at all. They asked not to be excused from all contraception but instead from contraception that works after an egg has been fertilized but before it is implanted. They consider it religiously to be murder. The government had a least restrictive option, to simply as the government, provide the service themselves and tax others for that service. This is the way the government does most things. Thus when people declare they don't want to pay for wars, they are making the argument about direct taxes to government being used for a government purpose.

 

The health care mandate was VERY different. It mandated private companies provide certain services for their employees since the government wouldn't do it. It takes the typical argument about the value of government and turns it on its head. Arguments like "You don't expect everyone to pay for their own private roads do you?" instead become government mandating everyone build a road.

 

The decision allows the government to still tax companies like Hobby Lobby and use the taxes to pay for any form of contraception the government wishes to provide. The government can even use it to put puppies into a wood chipper and call it art. Likewise Hobby Lobby has not made any law nor imposed any law on anyone. Their lawsuit win does not prohibit any company from providing any coverage they desire. Freedom of religion is a basic right like voting and speech. The case for infringing on it must meet a very high bar, much like how high the bar is for legislating against something like... homosexual marriage. Basic rights and the bar government must climb to infringe on those rights do not go up and down depending upon the issue and whether one likes it or not. Tim Cook is free to hand out iTunes cards and the CEO of Hobby Lobby should be free to hand out Bibles right next to Tim Cook.

Race is not the same thing as ethnicity. As you sited an Englishman & an Irishman are from different ethnic groups or nationality. They belong to the same race - caucasian. So what you are trying to explain as the meaning of the word race is not the meaning of the word, anywhere.

 

Isn't taking the ball home pretty much what Hobby Lobby wants? This ruling is going to have implications for years to come.

Abortion & contraception are not illegal regardless of your religious point of view. You have the right to not practice those things because of your religious point of view. Who has an issue with that? What about the employees rights or their religious points of view? Are they paying for any of this healthcare plan? 

Evangelical Christians have long argued that life begins at conception, and therefore that medical procedures that disrupt the first stages of pregnancy amount to murder. In the case of Hobby Lobby, this extends to a woman taking pills such as Plan B, Next Choice or Ella, any of which would prevent her ovaries from releasing an egg that could be fertilized after unprotected sex. Yet they have no issue with Viagra or vasectomies.

 

What exactly have I been Hypocritical about?


Edited by Splif - 6/30/14 at 6:43pm
post #142 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

Believe it or not, people of all stripes like Apple and use their devices. The typical stereotype that all Mac users are liberals is not accurate at all, and I'm glad to do my part in dispelling that myth. There are many famous and high profile non-liberals who are Apple users. 

 

You're right about that, but it sometimes bothers me when people suggest that civil rights and/or environmental sustainability are "liberal" issues when that's not necessarily the case.

 

I'm very much a centrist (in that I think some solutions come from the left, and some from the right and I don't really have a core ideological view about that) - but I would say that some issues are sensible and logical no matter what your political persuasion. Of course, others may disagree, but I can't think of many reasons for someone to legitimately argue against (for example) Apple attempting to make as much of their products as recyclable as possible. Sometimes it's not about ideology, but rather, it's about some ideas simply being pretty bad and some being pretty good.

post #143 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


What if for some reason the majority of the employees at Hobby Lobby were gay/lesbian, and felt that paying for contraceptives was unfair because there's no way for them to get pregnant?

Okay. Then don't use contraception. I'll never have a hysterectomy, but the insurance I have probably covers that in some fashion.

post #144 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

Believe it or not, people of all stripes like Apple and use their devices. The typical stereotype that all Mac users are liberals is not accurate at all, and I'm glad to do my part in dispelling that myth. There are many famous and high profile non-liberals who are Apple users. Unless somebody is completely ignorant, I'm not sure why that should be a big surprise to anybody.

 

I see that you're still clinging to your ridiculous and laughable theory that I'm somehow a paid troll, and the source for your ludicrous assertion is "Conrad Joe".:lol: 

Who gives a shit.

post #145 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

Who gives a shit.

You do.

post #146 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
Of course, others may disagree, but I can't think of many reasons for someone to legitimately argue against (for example) Apple attempting to make as much of their products as recyclable as possible. 

 

I don't have a problem with Apple making their products as recyclable as possible. But I don't agree with certain other positions that liberals often hold on environmental issues, such as "global warming", nuclear power, drilling for oil etc.

post #147 of 197

"You're right about that, but it sometimes bothers me when people suggest that civil rights and/or environmental sustainability are "liberal" issues when that's not necessarily the case."

 

​You are correct when it comes to the American people...but not in Congress.

post #148 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

You do.

No, I don't. I could care less what you purchase & why.

post #149 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

I don't have a problem with Apple making their products as recyclable as possible. But I don't agree with certain other positions that liberals often hold on environmental issues, such as "global warming", nuclear power, drilling for oil etc.

 

Global warming is not a "liberal issue". Climate change is a fact that all climate scientists agree with worldwide -- with a few outliers who all happen to be on the payroll of major oil companies. Nuclear power? Why don't you move near Fukushima, Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. It's just incredible to see people display so much stupidity. Congratulations.

post #150 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

I don't have a problem with Apple making their products as recyclable as possible. But I don't agree with certain other positions that liberals often hold on environmental issues, such as "global warming", nuclear power, drilling for oil etc.

You are not all conservatives.

post #151 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

You are not all conservatives.

 

Of course I'm not, I'm one person.:lol:

 

I wouldn't even classify myself as a conservative, as I don't agree with many conservative positions.

post #152 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

No, I don't. I could care less what you purchase & why.

 

Tell that to Flaneur, because he certainly pays attention to what I do.

post #153 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post
 

What can you debunk? To say only a man and woman can procreate is hardly something up for debate. That's the part of my post you quoted. Maybe you need a sex education class. The reason laws get overturned in court has to do with our extremely liberal court system. These laws aren't about two people loving each other they are about gays getting the same federal benefits as everyone else that is married. Try to educated yourself because that was the issue in front of the SCOTUS. 

 

Like I said in some of my previous posts on here, while the US may not be the best when it comes to civil liberties take a look at other countries and maybe focus on the real problems around the world. To end all this bullshit our federal government needs to grow some balls and simply create one law for the entire US instead of letting the states battle over this stupid issue. 

 

The fact that this world was become so screwed up that we actually have to define marriage at a federal level is the really sad and pathetic issue. You act like settling something in a courtroom makes the judgment correct. Like to see your point of view on that when ti comes to Apple vs Samsung. 

 

People want to argue that it is natural to be gay, the last time i checked natural means intended by nature. Taking all religion out of the picture being gay was clearly not intended by nature. If the majority of humans were gay guess what you and I wouldn't be having this debate because we wouldn't be here. Religion has nothing to do with this topic it has everything to do with nature and the survival of a species. Which is really hard to argue or debate. 

 

Lets stop pretending this is a civil rights issue, it's a federal benefits issue. It's a civil rights humanitarian issue when people are being killed or put in jail because they are gay. Which again I point out the US isn't on that list. However I wonder how many on this forum live in a country that is on that list. Let Tim Cook go over to Iran and fight this issue, it would take about two days before his head came back in a box. 

It's the part I quoted because it was the dumbest in your avalanche of idiocy.

 

If you're going to say that two people have to be able to procreate in order to get married, then sterile men or menopausal women should also be excluded, shouldn't they? Besides, who do you think you are to edict that rule? Barren straight couples can adopt, and so can gay couples. And some gay parents resort to IVF. Besides, the whole point is moot, the batte has been fought and won, get over it. You're a dinosaur, and the rest of the world can't wait for you and your antiquated, narrow minded ideas to die off.

 

Yes, it is natural to be gay. If you had ever spent any time on a farm you would know that. There are gay animals in the wild. That's natural enough for you?

 

It's a civil rights issue to have the same rights and responsibilities as other couples. And when one is as ignorant as you are, one STFU.

post #154 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

Of course I'm not, I'm one person.:lol:

 

I wouldn't even classify myself as a conservative, as I don't agree with many conservative positions.

So you have things that you agree with & disagree with from both parties? Your independent? Name some, just for the hell of it.

post #155 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJohnWhorfin View Post
 

It's the part I quoted because it was the dumbest in your avalanche of idiocy.

 

If you're going to say that two people have to be able to procreate in order to get married, then sterile men or menopausal women should also be excluded, shouldn't they? Besides, who do you think you are to edict that rule? Barren straight couples can adopt, and so can gay couples. And some gay parents resort to IVF. Besides, the whole point is moot, the batte has been fought and won, get over it. You're a dinosaur, and the rest of the world can't wait for you and your antiquated, narrow minded ideas to die off.

 

Yes, it is natural to be gay. If you had ever spent any time on a farm you would know that. There are gay animals in the wild. That's natural enough for you?

 

It's a civil rights issue to have the same rights and responsibilities as other couples. And when one is as ignorant as you are, one STFU.

Your argument is idiotic not even worth a reply. You're just to dumb or blind to get it. 

post #156 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

Tell that to Flaneur, because he certainly pays attention to what I do.

That's your argument with him, not with me. It's a quality product. I think that's why most people buy it. Making a computer choice political seems odd to me.

post #157 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

So you have things that you agree with & disagree with from both parties? Your independent? Name some, just for the hell of it.

 

I am pro death penalty.

 

I am anti-abortion (not for religious reasons, I am not religious.) But this issue is not really that big of a deal, as it is mostly liberals that are being aborted, so I am ok with that.

 

I am pro marijuana.

 

I am anti-illegals.

 

I am pro American supremacy.

 

I am anti-third world religious dictatorships.

 

I am pro first amendment and pro second amendment.

 

I am pro capitalism.

 

I am anti-socialist.

 

I am anti-communist.

 

I am anti-nazis.

 

I am anti-Political correctness.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea.

post #158 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

That's your argument with him, not with me. It's a quality product. I think that's why most people buy it. Making a computer choice political seems odd to me.

I agree, which is precisely why I find it strange that some people try to give me a hard time, merely because they don't agree with my politics.

 

I like Apple, and that's all the reason that I need to be on this site.

post #159 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post
 

Your argument is idiotic not even worth a reply. You're just to dumb or blind to get it. 

procreate |ˈprōkrēˌātverb [ no obj. ](of people or animals) produce young; reproducespecies that procreate by copulation.

post #160 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splif View Post
 

So you have things that you agree with & disagree with from both parties? Your independent? Name some, just for the hell of it.

I'm an independent so I will give this a shot. I disagree with conservatives when it come to war. The US has a bad habit of trying to police the world and attempt to create democracy. We need to worry about our country and stay out of others business. My one exception if people in another country need humanitarian relief due do a disaster, then we should help as much as possible.

 

What bothers me from the liberal side has everything to do with the economy. Only half of our population pays federal taxes, we have the lowest employment participation rate in 35 years. We have 47 million americans in poverty and the same on food stamps. We need to get our shit together and get the government out of the free market private sector. 

 

Immigration reform. Conservatives need to make peace with the fact we have 12 million people in the country that are illegal. There is no way in hell we are going to deport them so lets make it work so we can make them productive and get them on the books to pay taxes. If they haven't committed a crime then I don't see a reason to try and waste money on something we can't fix. 

 

For both parties get your shit together with border patrol. Lets use our military for that instead of sending them all over the world for no good reason. 

 

The big topic of this thread, social issues. Either make gay marriage legal or define it as two people of the opposite sex. I don't agree with gay marriage that is my point of view. If it became a federal law that was defined I certainly would't think about it or honestly even care. It's not my battle. I have stated my opinion but that doesn't mean others have to agree with it, and I respect their opinion when they can present it without flipping out. 

 

I could go on with healthcare but this post would be 10 pages long. Healthcare for everyone really should be this hard or that much of an issue, we are the richest country in the world. 

 

So not exactly extreme posts of view. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple, Inc. employees pass out free iTunes song cards at San Francisco LGBT Pride Parade