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National Federation of the Blind pushes Apple to add accessibility requirements for apps [U] - Page 2

post #41 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Since they are already disabled doesn't that make it considerably more difficult which is why we have these laws?

The law makes some things easier.  But some situations are what they are. If you become severely disabled there are some things you are going to have to accept.  You can get into some business, but for various reasons not others, public transportation is accessible, but if you want your own car its extremely difficult to have that provided and more than likely you will have to spend exorbitant amounts of money to make it happen etc... In this case the phones are accessible, but if the banking app isn't and you can do your banking some other way, that may be the situation you have to accept as part of your disability.  There are a lot of examples out there that are tougher than this.  Companies that spend there own money and assist in these areas make life for the disabled much easier, but there is no obligation to do so. 

post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

The law makes some things easier.  But some situations are what they are. If you become severely disabled there are some things you are going to have to accept.  You can get into some business, but for various reasons not others, public transportation is accessible, but if you want your own car its extremely difficult to have that provided and more than likely you will have to spend exorbitant amounts of money to make it happen etc... In this case the phones are accessible, but if the banking app isn't and you can do your banking some other way, that may be the situation you have to accept as part of your disability.  There are a lot of examples out there that are tougher than this.  Companies that spend there own money and assist in these areas make life for the disabled much easier, but there is no obligation to do so. 


I agree.  The disabled persons should know even nondiabled persons sometimes have to accept certain disadvantages.  For example, there are a couple years Google purposely not giving iPhone users navigation ability in the Maps app while it gave Android users this ability.  The iPhone users tolerated this discrimination for a couple years until Apple replaced Google Maps app with one of its own.  Then Google put the navigation into the iOS Google Maps app. 

post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


I agree.  The disabled persons should know even nondiabled persons sometimes have to accept certain disadvantages.  For example, there are a couple years Google purposely not giving iPhone users navigation ability in the Maps app while it gave Android users this ability.  The iPhone users tolerated this discrimination for a couple years until Apple replaced Google Maps app with one of its own.  Then Google put the navigation into the iOS Google Maps app. 

I would respectfully say that your definition of discrimination and mine are probably very different.

post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

I would respectfully say that your definition of discrimination and mine are probably very different.


What is your definition.  The fact is Google makes more money out of iPhone users than Android users by selling ads.  iPhone users are bigger customers of Google. 

post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 
Companies that spend there own money and assist in these areas make life for the disabled much easier, but there is no obligation to do so. 

There are laws that apply to what is required with respect to disability access, so yes there is an obligation, depending on the type of services the company offers. In the case of the App Store, it should be up to the developers, but it is a gray area because Apple is the one selling the product and they sell to government and federally funded entities so technically the products should be in compliance. 

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post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


What is your definition.  The fact is Google makes more money out of iPhone users than Android users by selling ads.  iPhone users are bigger customers of Google. 

Disabled people face real life discrimination over wages, employment, promotion etc...the comparison to turn-by-turn directions is uninformed and could be interpreted as disrespectful to those who face these factors in their daily lives. 

post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

For the most part it is pretty easy for app developers to comply. It is just writing clean code. Instead of only providing an icon for a button, they simply give it a label in the code as well. 10 extra seconds. It is a no brainer once you have been made aware. The main issue is that there are no trial apps available so a blind person would have to contact each app developer and ask if the app was compliant or not before making a purchase.
Google Play doesn't make it much easier to find reliable apps for the disabled.
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=app%20for%20blind&c=apps&hl=en

Fortunately there are websites with lists/reviews of applications for the blind or deaf.
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post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

There are laws that apply to what is required with respect to disability access, so yes there is an obligation, depending on the type of services the company offers. In the case of the App Store, it should be up to the developers, but it is a gray area because Apple is the one selling the product and they sell to government and federally funded entities so technically the products should be in compliance. 


This argument is wrong.  Apple selling apps from App Store is no different from Google Play or Amazon store. 

post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

There are laws that apply to what is required with respect to disability access, so yes there is an obligation, depending on the type of services the company offers. In the case of the App Store, it should be up to the developers, but it is a gray area because Apple is the one selling the product and they sell to government and federally funded entities so technically the products should be in compliance. 

I understand your point, I do believe that in general there is somewhat of a misconception about the ADA in that it is supposed to be an equalizer, with reasonable accommodations that do not cause undue hardship (not saying that is the case with the apps). Some people believe that compliance with the ADA means that everything has to be accessible all the time.  Not sure I agree with the portion about government funded entities, they don't have to buy apple or any particular app. 

post #50 of 91
I have really lost any sense of compassion and sympathy for the handicapped over the years. I've seen to many stories featuring these self-serving self-centered groups and individuals, taking their demands to extremes. Lawsuit after lawsuit, many of which are frivolous and absurd, which cost EVERYONE. It's the good of the few at the expense of the many. And still the ungrateful bastards aren't satisfied.

All I can say is do a google search using the term below, and see if you feel the same way about people with disabilities afterwards.


"people with disabilities absurd lawsuits ADA"
post #51 of 91
I have really lost any sense of compassion and sympathy for the handicapped over the years. I've seen to many stories featuring these self-serving self-centered groups and individuals, taking their demands to extremes. Lawsuit after lawsuit, many of which are frivolous and absurd, which cost EVERYONE. It's the good of the few at the expense of the many. And still the ungrateful bastards aren't satisfied.

All I can say is do a google search using the term below, and see if you feel the same way about people with disabilities afterwards.


"people with disabilities absurd lawsuits ADA"
post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

Disabled people face real life discrimination over wages, employment, promotion etc...the comparison to turn-by-turn directions is uninformed and could be interpreted as disrespectful to those who face these factors in their daily lives. 


You are wrong.  They are not discrimination.  You need to think about the non-disabled persons too.  How their wages, employment, promotion are determined?  Legally they are determined by performance.  To be more specific the amount or the value of the work they did.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general?  Please give me your honest answer. 

post #53 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


You are wrong.  They are not discrimination.  You need to think about the non-disabled persons too.  How their wages, employment, promotion are determined?  Legally they are determined by performance.  To be more specific the amount or the value of the work they did.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general?  Please give me your honest answer. 

Thats my point. Legally those things should be based on performance, but often with the disabled they are not and are based on bias, fear and lack of understanding, putting the disabled person at a disadvantage, which is partially addressed by the ADA. 

post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

Thats my point. Legally those things should be based on performance, but often with the disabled they are not and are based on bias, fear and lack of understanding, putting the disabled person at a disadvantage, which is partially addressed by the ADA. 


No, you did not answer my question.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general? 

post #55 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


No, you did not answer my question.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general? 

Im not sure what your asking, since obviously this would be judged on a case by case basis.

post #56 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

Im not sure what your asking, since obviously this would be judged on a case by case basis.


This is the problem of disabled persons.  They are out of sync to the real cruel world. 

post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


This is the problem of disabled persons.  They are out of sync to the real cruel world. 

Just to clarify you are saying a disable person cannot possibly do the job of a an "able" person?

post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


This is the problem of disabled persons.  They are out of sync to the real cruel world. 

You are practically begging the universe to leave you blind, deaf, and paralyzed. 

 

Obviously if you take two people who are equivalent in all ways, except that one has a disability, the person lacking the disability is going to be more able to do some things than the disabled person. I suppose that is your brilliant point. Good for you Einstein -- I hope you break your arm patting yourself on the back. 

 

Despite your ignorance, the point of the ADA is NOT to force employers to pay disabled people to do things they are not capable of doing. 

 

The point is to protect people with disabilities from employers who assume that because a disabled person cannot do X and they also cannot do Y, when X is not relevant to the job but Y is. 

 

I have zero expectation that you will understand this nuance. 

 

And seriously, you suck and deserve to suffer greatly. 

post #59 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by zBernie View Post

I have really lost any sense of compassion and sympathy for the handicapped over the years. I've seen to many stories featuring these self-serving self-centered groups and individuals, taking their demands to extremes. Lawsuit after lawsuit, many of which are frivolous and absurd, which cost EVERYONE. It's the good of the few at the expense of the many. And still the ungrateful bastards aren't satisfied.

All I can say is do a google search using the term below, and see if you feel the same way about people with disabilities afterwards.


"people with disabilities absurd lawsuits ADA"

Please don't put them all in one bunch, the vast majority of the disabled don't ask for or need your compassion or your sympathy (empathy, the ability to see things from someone else's perspective, would probably be welcomed) but generalizing the disabled by the actions of a few is not different than any other prejudice that exist out there. 

post #60 of 91
As a fully blind person first let me appologize for this ridiculous turn of events. I am from Europe, therefore this organisation does not represent me. And after seeing this, I can't say I'm very sad about that. The way this keeps happening over and over again frankly disgusts me. The iTunes lawsuit back in 2008 was way too extreme in my humble opinion. After this, it's been Apple this, Apple that. In 2009 Apple has included accessibility into their mobile operating system, which was pretty revolutionary at the time. A lot of blind people jumped on the iOS bandwagon at that point and blindness organisations have noticed this. This is why a number of accessibility solutions were developped for the platform. Android followed suit with accessibility options not much later, but because Apple got there first this never gained as much traction. The access of Android is somewhat less polished, but it's mature enough to be useful in daily life. This little history lesson should at least point out, why only Apple. Because a lot of blind folks own Apple devices now and they MUST HAVE FULL ACCESSIBILITY, GOSH DARN IT! Sure, let's make Draw Something accessible next, won't we?
There's no laws being breached here. There's no rules being broken. There's just an organisation that doesn't want to realize what they are doing is no more than whining for candy.
post #61 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post
 
The point is to protect people with disabilities from employers who assume that because a disabled person cannot do X and they also cannot do Y, when X is not relevant to the job but Y is. 

A college student neighbor who is on summer break asked me last weekend if I had any work for him because we wants to pay down his student loan. He just finished his second year. He is planning to graduate quickly and get in a PhD program in biology to work in cancer research. Needless to say he is a pretty bright kid and also physically fit, but he sucks at yard work and only lasted about an hour before giving up and going home. Some people are good at some tasks and bad at others. Same with disabled people.

 

One of my friends is blind and he built a multimillion dollar software business. I work a lot in visual media and I was telling him that if I lost my vision I would be sunk. He replied it would be worse to be deaf. I said why? If you are deaf you can't interact with society. He said, I can talk on the phone and make big business deals and people don't even know I'm blind. So yes people with disabilities very from one to another in their capabilities just like regular people.

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post #62 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

A college student neighbor who is on summer break asked me last weekend if I had any work for him because we wants to pay down his student loan. He just finished his second year. He is planning to graduate quickly and get in a PhD program in biology to work in cancer research. Needless to say he is a pretty bright kid and also physically fit, but he sucks at yard work and only lasted about an hour before giving up and going home. Some people are good at some tasks and bad at others. Same with disabled people.

 

One of my friends is blind and he built a multimillion dollar software business. I work a lot in visual media and I was telling him that if I lost my vision I would be sunk. He replied it would be worse to be deaf. I said why? If you are deaf you can't interact with society. He said, I can talk on the phone and make big business deals and people don't even know I'm blind. So yes people with disabilities very from one to another in their capabilities just like regular people.

Well said, that was my point to that very unfortunate person I was talking to earlier and a point emphasized by Blastdoor, the ADA is about giving people a chance, after that it is up to the employer and the employee to make it work and everyone has different abilities and weaknesses and not everyone is fit for every job. 

post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

Just to clarify you are saying a disable person cannot possibly do the job of a an "able" person?

I said very clearly.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general? 

post #64 of 91
"It's time for Apple to step up or we will take the next step," NFB of California board member Michael Hingson told the news service. Hingson said another lawsuit would be "the only resort" to force compliance.

Not true you dick. Seriously, "the only resort" is to sue??!! What about a conversation?
post #65 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post
 

You are practically begging the universe to leave you blind, deaf, and paralyzed. 

 

Obviously if you take two people who are equivalent in all ways, except that one has a disability, the person lacking the disability is going to be more able to do some things than the disabled person. I suppose that is your brilliant point. Good for you Einstein -- I hope you break your arm patting yourself on the back. 

 

Despite your ignorance, the point of the ADA is NOT to force employers to pay disabled people to do things they are not capable of doing. 

 

The point is to protect people with disabilities from employers who assume that because a disabled person cannot do X and they also cannot do Y, when X is not relevant to the job but Y is. 

 

I have zero expectation that you will understand this nuance. 

 

And seriously, you suck and deserve to suffer greatly. 


I don't know what kind of job you work.  In many companies the workers frequently are asked to do something unrelated to X such as community services that salesforce.com employees have done in the news.  The disabled person wants help from non-disabled person.  How one can expect them to provide services to other people? 

post #66 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

What law has apple violated here? Why not sue the app maker? Why not sue google?

I'm all for greater accessibility, but I don't quite understand this story...

Obviously, because it says nothing about a lawsuit.

 

I know people get all superior when it comes to accessibility, but its just good programming practice and ultimately benefits everyone.

Ramps and curb cutouts are just good design for everyone at one time or another.

Accessibility mods to bathrooms benefit everyone, particularly as we age (the ultimate 'disability' that we all face.)

Replacing knobs (a holdover from when door handles were simply offshoots of the clock-making arts) with levers benefits everyone who has ever encountered a door with an arm full of groceries.

 

I see no problem with encouraging Apple to make it easy for developers to do the right thing.

And I'm sure Cook agrees.

post #67 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 

I said very clearly.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general? 

Well let me respond very clearly for you. I am disabled and I perform psychological evaluations for neurosurgeons and bariatric surgeons as well as therapy for persons with severe mental health diagnosis.  This required a bachelors degree, masters degree and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I am very good at what I do and one of the few in the area that provides evaluations (that have a profound effect on peoples lives) that these professionals in this area feel comfortable using. 

 

You have displayed ignorance, bigotry and a profound lack of insight during your postings on this manner. With these qualities I would not be able to hire you and have you work in an environment that requires objectivity and an education level high enough for you to effectively communicate with surgeons and have an understanding of a patients strengths and weaknesses. 

 

Now I understand your low self-esteem (of course these are assumptions based on our limited contact medium, very similar to your assumptions based on not knowing every disabled person) I understand while you use global thinking and generalizations to make yourself feel better about any perceived advantages those disabled people have. 

 

I served in the United States Navy and as a police officer (k9) and I met alot of individuals who weren't so good at there job, however, I don't judge people and lump them into one group which seems to be your coping mechanism. Of course I cannot go out and do construction, but there are people in jobs requiring physical attributes that couldn't do my job and what I do has a profound effect on peoples lives and pays quite well to boot (not saying physical labor doesn't have profound effects, just making a point). So if this hasn't answered your question sufficiently maybe you need to look deeper within yourself, or perhaps some professional help is needed (and no I don't do referrals out of comment sections). 

post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

Well let me respond very clearly for you. I am disabled and I perform psychological evaluations for neurosurgeons and bariatric surgeons as well as therapy for persons with severe mental health diagnosis.  This required a bachelors degree, masters degree and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I am very good at what I do and one of the few in the area that provides evaluations (that have a profound effect on peoples lives) that these professionals in this area feel comfortable using. 

 

You have displayed ignorance, bigotry and a profound lack of insight during your postings on this manner. With these qualities I would not be able to hire you and have you work in an environment that requires objectivity and an education level high enough for you to effectively communicate with surgeons and have an understanding of a patients strengths and weaknesses. 

 

Now I understand your low self-esteem (of course these are assumptions based on our limited contact medium, very similar to your assumptions based on not knowing every disabled person) I understand while you use global thinking and generalizations to make yourself feel better about any perceived advantages those disabled people have. 

 

I served in the United States Navy and as a police officer (k9) and I met alot of individuals who weren't so good at there job, however, I don't judge people and lump them into one group which seems to be your coping mechanism. Of course I cannot go out and do construction, but there are people in jobs requiring physical attributes that couldn't do my job and what I do has a profound effect on peoples lives and pays quite well to boot (not saying physical labor doesn't have profound effects, just making a point). So if this hasn't answered your question sufficiently maybe you need to look deeper within yourself, or perhaps some professional help is needed (and no I don't do referrals out of comment sections). 


I do not think you answered it honestly.  You did not say what is your disability.  Your job is very specific.  It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available. 

post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


I do not think you answered it honestly.  You did not say what is your disability.  Your job is very specific.  It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available. 

Refer back to my last paragraph. I fear I am enabling you so Ill just leave it at that.

post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tookieman2013 View Post
 

Refer back to my last paragraph. 


No, it does not say what is the disability. 

post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

I think what is really needed are apps designed specifically for disabled person.  To require every approved app to be easily accessible to disabled person is technologically backward.  In reality it limits the functionality of apps. 

I have just spent about a month improving my game app for visually impaired people with the brilliant help from people on AppleVis.com. It's a game which involves rolling, moving and combining lettered dice to make words. Some of them have said how much they enjoy it, that I've improved the instructions and that they think it is great fun and they have scored over 140 points and so on.

There are features built into iOS that allow someone who can only press a button to use their device!

Your comments are an insult to both the work Apple has done in VoiceOver and much, much more and the blind and visually impaired people who use iPhones and iPads day in day out. You really should have a read up about their work on Accessibility and then actually try it before posting. It will seem alien at first to use but even for a sighted person like me you start to get better and better at it.

Have a look at what a Apple has done so far: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/
post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post


I have just spent about a month improving my game app for visually impaired people with the brilliant help from people on AppleVis.com. It's a game which involves rolling, moving and combining lettered dice to make words. Some of them have said how much they enjoy it, that I've improved the instructions and that they think it is great fun and they have scored over 140 points and so on.

There are features built into iOS that allow someone who can only press a button to use their device!

Your comments are an insult to both the work Apple has done in VoiceOver and much, much more and the blind and visually impaired people who use iPhones and iPads day in day out. You really should have a read up about their work on Accessibility and then actually try it before posting. It will seem alien at first to use but even for a sighted person like me you start to get better and better at it.

Have a look at what a Apple has done so far: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/


Your criticism to me is wrong.  The article said NAB wants Apple to require every app in App Store to be disabled person friendly.  NAB is not satisfied what Apple has done. 

post #73 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

For the most part it is pretty easy for app developers to comply. It is just writing clean code. Instead of only providing an icon for a button, they simply give it a label in the code as well. 10 extra seconds. It is a no brainer once you have been made aware. The main issue is that there are no trial apps available so a blind person would have to contact each app developer and ask if the app was compliant or not before making a purchase.

If you have an app that uses standard only UIKit controls then a lot of the work is already taken care of automatically. A further considerable enhancement can be providing labels and hints in Interface Builder, part of Apple's development system. That much is fairly simple.

The work arises when things happen as a result of the app doing something rather than the user. For example, my app displays a message on the screen "Ready to roll (Turn 2 of 4), but no labels or hints will help there. In this case you have to tell VoiceOver to make an announcement. If the screen layout changes substantially then the dev has to tell VoiceOver. When a user taps a dice in my game I need to relay its letter, colour, position and score. The letter, score and position can all change and I have to track that. There are many things to take into account, I can tell you, that definitely take way more than 10 seconds! However, I've made a better app, more people can use it than before and I get a warm glow because as Apple say, "It's the right thing to do".
post #74 of 91
I'd like to make a few points here being a person who is blind and uses a IPhone and a Ipad:
I feel what the NFB is asking of apple is wrong. Its not the responsibility of apple to make sure all apps are accessible. I feel the developers should work on this and a lot of them do.
I've had contact with a few developers and most seem willing to make changes where needed.
some apps however really just can't be made accessible. I'll use angry birds as an example. its a very visual game and I fully understand as a voice over user why it can't be made accessible. The NFB has a long history of trying to get what they want and its at times not what other blind people want. I'm glad I'm not associated with them in any way.
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post


I do not think you answered it honestly.  You did not say what is your disability.  Your job is very specific.  It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available. 

I think, tzeshan, that you are lucky that this is a virtual discussion and not people sitting around the table in the pub. If it was, I think that by now tookieman would have probably boiled over with apoplexy and punched you. And the rest of us would probably have cheered loudly and bought him an extra drink!
post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Perhaps compliant apps could be "tagged" or given their own section (if they aren't already)?

To be fair, it is completely the developer's choice to spend the additional time to include accessibility features. If they choose to not spend the additional effort, that's on them.

On the other hand, I'm sure if lawsuits were filed against banks, the banks would lose and have to spend the extra dev time to bring their apps up to speed.

This isn't correct. The OS needs to provide the accessibility features (eg Siri) when the device doesn't permit software to have enough space to operate. In the case of Siri and other text-to-speech software, it's insanely CPU intensive and memory/disk intensive to operate. We've had the ability for computers to do TTS since the original Mac and Amiga, but only in recent times have we seen this pushed to mobile devices, and out of necessity because blind people with no or little sight can't operate a touch screen. Deaf people have an advantage here because they can see, and even have the device "listen" to people and their surroundings. Blind people get the shortest end of the stick with most computer software.

There's not much that developers can do, as smartphones are mostly visual. There will come a time when tactile touch screens become available and maybe that will change things, but until then, it requires "blind-enabled" software to both accept voice input and read back responses using the TTS engine.
post #77 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post


I think, tzeshan, that you are lucky that this is a virtual discussion and not people sitting around the table in the pub. If it was, I think that by now tookieman would have probably boiled over with apoplexy and punched you. And the rest of us would probably have cheered loudly and bought him an extra drink!

Oh believe me... he would have been punched. No doubt he would assume that because I'm borderline legally blind that I cannot see him well enough to land a punch. I would very much enjoy him experiencing the error of that assumption. 

post #78 of 91

There are more than just a few that exhibit this greedy self-centered behavior.  Enough so that a generalization can be made.  I'm sure there are those who do not believe the world should revolve around them, but MANY handicapped  seem to have that opinion.  Too many.  The laws and law suits perpetuate this type of selfish behavior.

 

What began as good intended laws has ballooned into a widespread abuse of litigation.  By doing a google search with the term below you can see just how widespread this behavior has become.   More entitlement mentality with the attitude that it's all about "ME".

 

Google this:

 

"people with disabilities absurd lawsuits ADA"

post #79 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post
 

Oh believe me... he would have been punched. No doubt he would assume that because I'm borderline legally blind that I cannot see him well enough to land a punch. I would very much enjoy him experiencing the error of that assumption. 


I am still waiting for the other poster to say what is his disability.  I feel there is a fraud in his case.  And to two of you, according to US law I can kill you as self defense before you can punch me. 

post #80 of 91
Depends on the job. I don't think I Stephen Hawking will be working construction any time soon but he's much better at what he does than you will ever be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post


You are wrong.  They are not discrimination.  You need to think about the non-disabled persons too.  How their wages, employment, promotion are determined?  Legally they are determined by performance.  To be more specific the amount or the value of the work they did.  Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general?  Please give me your honest answer. 
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