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Microsoft may announce biggest round of layoffs in company history this week - report - Page 2

post #41 of 85
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Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Good info, but I think that it's important to point out that I believe the numbers that you are quoting is for Apple worldwide, and not just the US. 
That's correct
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post #42 of 85

I would be panicking if I still hold MS stocks at this point. I don't see this company long term growth at all. Their pipelines are horrible. Their mobile business is nothing more than just playing catch up: phone, tablet, smartwatch...? Really? Windows 8 is a failure just like Vista...I would say: MS is doomed.

post #43 of 85
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Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

I would be panicking if I still hold MS stocks at this point. I don't see this company long term growth at all. Their pipelines are horrible. Their mobile business is nothing more than just playing catch up: phone, tablet, smartwatch...? Really? Windows 8 is a failure just like Vista...I would say: MS is doomed.

Oddly enough you could have made a killing this year on the stock of a company in even worse shape than MS...

Blackberry. It's stock has performed better than Apple as a matter of fact. 1bugeye.gif
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post #44 of 85

It was an easy choice for me to make 25 years ago. I jumped to Apple products, and they just work for me. I have never lost data to an Apple product. Yes, there's been some rough spots (cough newton cough clones cough) but I appreciate the "it just works" concept.

 

I can't say that about anything from MS. They have never made a single product that I like or would personally select to buy. I was rather forced to buy Office for my Mac; but now I have many better options, and don't use it. I am forced to use MS products by my employer - mostly because I work for a government, and they have little sense of efficiency or vision.

 

A cow-orker told me she swore off Apple because "I had to buy a whole new iPod because I couldn't replace the battery." You know..some people just have preferences. I've just never understood some people's...particularly wrt MS design and execution.

post #45 of 85
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post #46 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Oddly enough you could have made a killing this year on the stock of a company in even worse shape than MS...

Blackberry. It's stock has performed better than Apple as a matter of fact. 1bugeye.gif

You're talking about the last 2-3 months? The whole year looks pretty flat.

post #47 of 85
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Originally Posted by eightzero View Post


... A co worker told me she swore off Apple because "I had to buy a whole new iPod because I couldn't replace the battery." You know..some people just have preferences. .....

People that say stuff like that make you wonder if they even knew it was rechargeable! 1biggrin.gif
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post #48 of 85
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Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

I would be panicking if I still hold MS stocks at this point. I don't see this company long term growth at all. Their pipelines are horrible. Their mobile business is nothing more than just playing catch up: phone, tablet, smartwatch...? Really? Windows 8 is a failure just like Vista...I would say: MS is doomed.

And I'd say you'd be correct. 1smoking.gif
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post #49 of 85
Could be interesting. Finland isn't Washington state.

European / Scandinavian countries have much greater protection for employees. You have to at least "pay them out" based on years of service when you lay them off.

I'm seeing a big hit to Mr Softie's next quarter earnings...
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post #50 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Oddly enough you could have made a killing this year on the stock of a company in even worse shape than MS...

Blackberry. It's stock has performed better than Apple as a matter of fact. 1bugeye.gif

Really?




I'll grant you, the Five Year graphs of BB & Apple are remarkably similarly shaped .... except in the reverse direction. 1biggrin.gif
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post #51 of 85
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Originally Posted by eightzero View Post


A cow-orker told me she swore off Apple

Hey! have some respect! she's just big boned!!
post #52 of 85

Microsofts best bet IMO is to ditch their OS and go UNIX. Apple figured this one out in the early nineties. Hard pill to swallow, and no-one at MS will ever have the balls to do it.

post #53 of 85
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I just visited the Verge and didn't see one story about Microsoft's potential layoffs. There was however a story about senator Cory Booker taking selfies with other senators. Wow is that site going downhill.

What does Cory Booker have to do with this article?

post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

You're talking about the last 2-3 months? The whole year looks pretty flat.

Their stock started the year at $7.44, Today Blackberry is at $11.30 so do the math. That's around a 50% gain.
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post #55 of 85
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Really?
I'll grant you, the Five Year graphs of BB & Apple are remarkably similarly shaped .... except in the reverse direction. 1biggrin.gif

... THIS year. 1hmm.gif
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post #56 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Their stock started the year at $7.44, Today Blackberry is at $11.30 so do the math. That's around a 50% gain.

You picked the low point and the high point. Just a coincidence that the low point was at the beginning of the year.
post #57 of 85

I don't really follow company's internal workings or politics anymore, I have to much happening in my life then to worry what some company does behind closed doors. I just care about the products they release. I like Microsoft now, I actually never really used Windows for personal use until recently. I always disliked the interface, specifically the command line as I spend most of the time there. Though after the release of Windows 8 I was curios so I bought a ThinkPad Tablet II and I liked it, actually really liked it. It was fast, intuitive despite the complaints to the crontray and it looked neat. Like anything, the first release had it's problems but they've been worked out for the most part. Now I have a shiny new Surface Pro 3, it's actually a very cool piece of gadgetry, again despite the negative comments.

 

I also think their cloud solutions are pretty fantastic, OneCloud and Office online are two things that I always have up. In fact I don't even use the installed version of Office anymore, I just have the web app icons from Google's app launcher to start them. It's actually a really neat thing, this Google app launcher, when it starts a web app it doesn't bring up the whole browser just a wrapper that looks like any other desktop app, so Office looks like it's installed, I know little things. I would say 80 percent of my apps are now web based, something I learned from my ChromeBook, there are some incredible apps online now. In fact if it wasn't for my music apps I would be completely cloud dependent.

 

I also use Windows 8.1 mobile on my Nokia 1020, it does everything that I want a phone to do, it's very fast, secure and stable, plus has one of the best integrated cloud functionality I have seen as of yet. Now that BBM has finally been released for it I'm complete. Ooooh talking about RIM, have you guys seen the new BlackBerry Passport, I must have it but I'm a sucker for a phone with a keyboard.

 

Microsoft might not be for everyone or specifically anyone from this forum but as a person who buys more tech in a year then most do in a life time, I know that their stuff isn't bad especially when compared to the sea of crap that's out there. I think sometimes you guys are just a little to on the snobby snide when it comes to none Apple company's or products.:p

 

BlackBerry Passport:

 


Edited by Relic - 7/15/14 at 5:04pm
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post #58 of 85
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Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post
 

Microsofts best bet IMO is to ditch their OS and go UNIX. Apple figured this one out in the early nineties. Hard pill to swallow, and no-one at MS will ever have the balls to do it.

How would going with UNIX change anything, outside of Apple no one uses Unix in consumer products and Apple does everything it can to hide those underpinnings. The only reason why Apple went the direction they did was they were basically desperate, remember the whole Copeland debacle, using Next was a move of connivance. If Steve Jobs had sold Next before coming back to Apple, OSX would probably be of BeOS design, which it almost was despite Steve owning Next but Jean-Louis Gassée greed put a stop to that.

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post #59 of 85
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Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

I wouldn't want to be at MS right now. The low hanging fruit is a shiny, new OS that apparently looks and functions like Windows XP. If MS accomplishes this with Windows 9, they look like they are running towards yesterday. But they hang on to the enterprise market and can move a few more Office products.

It's hard to believe how they could have miscalculated so badly on mobile. A whole slew of nerds with no vision.

I just can't believe how bad Windows 8 is! Sure, like most I always thought it was probably a bad idea to mix tablet and laptop functionality, blah, blah, blah, but I had never actually tried to use it. That is, until my brother in-law bought his parents a Windows 8.1 laptop and my wife and I became their help desk.

It's an unfinished product! It reminds me of Windows Mobile 6.5 - a thin coat of touch-sensitive paint on all the same old stuff. Drill down past the top layer of settings and you're back in Control Panel applets. Certain web sites force IE into desktop mode because the new GUI doesn't support everything, and the Deaktop IE looks completely different. Half of the GUI controls don't provide mouse-over help. The mail client doesn't support gmail (more of a policy decision, I guess). I can't believe they bet their future on this, and I feel sorry for the engineers losing their jobs because of it - they didn't make this call.

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post #60 of 85
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Originally Posted by Chandra View Post

MS should start writing software for Apple or go back to it's ill-gotten roots MS-DOS.

 

Actually, MS has its roots in writing software for Apple, long before MS-DOS came into the picture.

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post #61 of 85
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Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post
 

Microsofts best bet IMO is to ditch their OS and go UNIX. Apple figured this one out in the early nineties. Hard pill to swallow, and no-one at MS will ever have the balls to do it.

 

You may not know Microsoft already sold Unix, long before Apple/NeXT.

 

Quote:
 
Microsoft, which expected that Unix would be its operating system of the future when personal computers became powerful enough,[3] purchased a license for Version 7 Unix from AT&T in 1978,[4] and announced on August 25, 1980 that it would make it available for the 16-bit microcomputer market.[5]Because Microsoft was not able to license the "UNIX" name itself,[6] the company gave it an original name. Microsoft, in turn, did not sell Xenix directly to end users; instead, they licensed it to OEMs such as IBM,[7] Intel,[8] Tandy, Altos, SCO, and Siemens (SINIX) who then ported it to their own proprietary computer architectures.

 

The article goes on say Microsoft bailed on Xenix because eventually AT&T began selling Unix licenses directly, so Microsoft sent the Xenix development team to work on OS/2 with IBM. Microsoft started selling Xenix before MS-DOS, so they never really competed because they served different purposes. DOS was created for IBM's first PC. 

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post #62 of 85

Maybe Microsoft would like to revisit this ??

 

 

post #63 of 85
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Originally Posted by Chandra View Post

MS should start writing software for Apple or go back to it's ill-gotten roots MS-DOS.

Ill gotten indeed. Nothing that company has exploited for three decades wasn't stolen. From MS-DOS to Windows to Explorer to Windows Media. May MS rot in hell.
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post #64 of 85
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Originally Posted by hypoluxa View Post

I second that notion. Software is where they should continue in. Leave the OS/hardware market. They produce the tackiest HW. Sans the XBox. That seemed to have worked for them, except didnt they lose money producing it or whatever?

Because.... their desktop/laptop/server OS platforms don't sell and don't have good majority in respective markets? Or because they do?

That would make as much sense as Apple dropping iOS. And much less sense than Apple dropping OSX.
post #65 of 85
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Originally Posted by plovell View Post

Maybe Microsoft would like to revisit this ??





I'm sure they would like, but not in the same way you are thinking of 1wink.gif
post #66 of 85
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I just visited the Verge and didn't see one story about Microsoft's potential layoffs. There was however a story about senator Cory Booker taking selfies with other senators. Wow is that site going downhill.

25000 people coming in from Nokia, 5 - 10000 people going out (I'd expect mostly ex-Nokia people, but not necessarily). According to Anandtech.

However you spin it, their workforce is growing, not shrinking.
post #67 of 85
Quote:
It's hard to believe how they could have miscalculated so badly on mobile. A whole slew of nerds with no vision.

 

I think it was nearly all Ballmer's delusional myopia and Bill G being retired in place and spending more time on hobbies than the business. The herd of nerds was doing exactly what it was told to do. If you look at most of the Ballmer interviews and talks in that era you'll see that he never took Apple seriously in any area at all, even the iPod. He came across as truly believing Microsoft had an answer and secret sauce to counter every product by Apple and all the other what he thought were Microsoft wannabes. He had the iPod killer with Zune, the iPhone killer with the keyboard laden Windows Mobile device, the iPad killer with Surface, and all of the other Microsoft magic dust coated me-too-late to the party ecosystem and services.

 

Microsoft didn't miscalculate the need or timing for mobile, they (or Steve & Bill) grossly miscalculated and over estimated the value of what they had to offer. They started focusing on mobile at least decade before the iPhone hit the market. Remember Pegasus and WinPad? They had the vision to a large degree but failed on the execution. Apple's early success in the Apple Jobs Redux era was based on superior design and execution compared to Microsoft. Apple basically beat Microsoft at Microsoft's "strong follower" game. That's the part that must really sting a company that thought it could out-design and out-engineer any company on the planet.

post #68 of 85

Nadella has a certain resemblance to Robert Zemeckis.

 

I know - I'm not adding anything to the discussion...

post #69 of 85
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Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

How would going with UNIX change anything, outside of Apple no one uses Unix in consumer products and Apple does everything it can to hide those underpinnings. The only reason why Apple went the direction they did was they were basically desperate, remember the whole Copeland debacle, using Next was a move of connivance. If Steve Jobs had sold Next before coming back to Apple, OSX would probably be of BeOS design, which it almost was despite Steve owning Next but Jean-Louis Gassée greed put a stop to that.

Because it is their pig of an OK which makes them late to the party for everything. It's not efficient, it doesn't run on mobile very well. It's just a big nasty hack which slows them down.

 

There's a lot of 'ifs' in your statement, fact is, Apple made the right decision, they didn't choose BeOS, they got Steve back on board who had vision, and with it Next built upon a solid foundation which could eventually be stuffed inside a mobile phone with relative ease.

post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 

 

You may not know Microsoft already sold Unix, long before Apple/NeXT.

 

 

The article goes on say Microsoft bailed on Xenix because eventually AT&T began selling Unix licenses directly, so Microsoft sent the Xenix development team to work on OS/2 with IBM. Microsoft started selling Xenix before MS-DOS, so they never really competed because they served different purposes. DOS was created for IBM's first PC. 

Interesting. I did not know that.

post #71 of 85
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Originally Posted by DewMe View Post
 

Microsoft didn't miscalculate the need or timing for mobile, they (or Steve & Bill) grossly miscalculated and over estimated the value of what they had to offer. They started focusing on mobile at least decade before the iPhone hit the market. Remember Pegasus and WinPad? They had the vision to a large degree but failed on the execution. Apple's early success in the Apple Jobs Redux era was based on superior design and execution compared to Microsoft. Apple basically beat Microsoft at Microsoft's "strong follower" game. That's the part that must really sting a company that thought it could out-design and out-engineer any company on the planet.

 

Your point is better than mine. They did have some vision but badly failed on execution. I always forget how powerful that one word is. It's Xerox PARC all over again. Jobs saw the bitmap and went to work. The Mac set a new course for Apple. Gates had that huge monster table tablet thingy and yet couldn't execute to get it under 472 pounds so I could use it to read in bed.

 

It's also a lack of aesthetics and beauty. Microsoft just doesn't make stuff that makes me react viscerally to it. Except negatively. It's like the difference between Pages and Word. One is a joy to use and one is simply around because it was the standard.

post #72 of 85
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Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 

 

Actually, MS has its roots in writing software for Apple, long before MS-DOS came into the picture.

Yep, two of the biggest were Basic and Multiplan.

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post #73 of 85
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Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post
 

Because it is their pig of an OK which makes them late to the party for everything. It's not efficient, it doesn't run on mobile very well. It's just a big nasty hack which slows them down.

 

Microsoft's Windows 8.1 mobile software was written from the ground up and runs extremely well, fast, even on hardware with anemic specs like the Nokia 620. There may have been some problems with their first release version 7 but I can categorically say that 8.1 is an entirely different system. Their mobile OS is actually very good or I wouldn't currently be using it. I'm an extremely tech savvy and very selective about the phones I carry, so if I chose a Nokia 1020 with WM8.1 over say an iPhone or Android(insert brand here) then it must have defiantly offered something of value. Simply shooting it down by saying it's not efficient or doesn't run on mobile very well, whatever that means without any narrative of say an experience with an actual Windows 8.1 phone is then just conjecture on your part and no my friend from Ohio who has one doesn't count. I understand this is an Apple forum and it's almost a prerequisite to come here with some bias in regards to Apple's competition but  I humbly request you at least have some first hand account of the product in question before the negative onslaught begins. Even then though I would also expect some sort of con list that describes why it's so inferior. I didn't mean to corner or belittle you in any way as this is more of a plea to everyone. Simply shotgunning negative adjectives at things we don't like and calling it day is actually inherently damaging to our point of view. The more negative things we read about something the more likely we will stay away from it. Reading is a very powerful social force, we actually retain more from that activity then say watching TV.

 

My point being if someone who has never used say a Windows 8.1 phone before and they come here and read, Microsoft's Windows 8.1 sucks 100 times in one sitting it is very likely that person will take that sentiment with him the next time they go phone shopping, probably won't even bother looking at one, oh I read somewhere that there not any good. Now, not everyone is so acceptable to such bombardment of negativity but you would be surprised to how many are. That's why people who review products at least try to weigh in the pros and cons of the product their reviewing, so people can decide for themselves, yes I know there are those exceptions with some reviewers who push their point of view on to others but what their doing isn't right.

 

I know sometimes these forums just feel like a hangout but in a lot of ways it's also a moving commentary, but still a place where enthusiast like yourself can come together and talk tech, mostly Apple stuff but also tech in general. But you also have to realize that everything you say here is out there for everyone to read. I've had at least 12 people already who have joined AppleInsider just to PM me so they could say their praying for me and my family, well except this one pervert but I won't go into that,  just happened to see one of my posts while Googling. So even though I am high as f*****g kite right now, I believe like those tech reviewers, we have at least some responsibilities to be a little more, aaahh what's the word I'm looking for, diplomatic, no, conciliatory, getting there, tactful, there it is, when posting here. We all have opinions, but it's the ones that are insightful, articulate and tactful, can't forget tactful, that bring something worth while to the conversation.:p 


Edited by Relic - 7/16/14 at 5:18am
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post #74 of 85
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Originally Posted by DewMe View Post
 

 

I think it was nearly all Ballmer's delusional myopia and Bill G being retired in place and spending more time on hobbies than the business. The herd of nerds was doing exactly what it was told to do. If you look at most of the Ballmer interviews and talks in that era you'll see that he never took Apple seriously in any area at all, even the iPod. He came across as truly believing Microsoft had an answer and secret sauce to counter every product by Apple and all the other what he thought were Microsoft wannabes. He had the iPod killer with Zune, the iPhone killer with the keyboard laden Windows Mobile device, the iPad killer with Surface, and all of the other Microsoft magic dust coated me-too-late to the party ecosystem and services.

 

Microsoft didn't miscalculate the need or timing for mobile, they (or Steve & Bill) grossly miscalculated and over estimated the value of what they had to offer. They started focusing on mobile at least decade before the iPhone hit the market. Remember Pegasus and WinPad? They had the vision to a large degree but failed on the execution. Apple's early success in the Apple Jobs Redux era was based on superior design and execution compared to Microsoft. Apple basically beat Microsoft at Microsoft's "strong follower" game. That's the part that must really sting a company that thought it could out-design and out-engineer any company on the planet.

There's another reason as well. As Alan Kay said, "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware". For the PC era this was simple. IBM had designed the hardware and it was more-or-less standardized. But there was no such standard-setter in the early days of mobile. Nor was there a common vision of what the devices would do, aside from make phone calls, whereas the IBM PC already did - thanks to the experimentation of the 70's when hundreds of companies were experimenting with the early microcomputers. A Cambrian explosion of sorts.

 

Microsoft's problem is that they were trying to figure out how this might all go together but they were doing only the software piece. Others were doing their hardware. With cooperation and consultation to be sure, but it's not like having a single team.

post #75 of 85
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Originally Posted by plovell View Post

Maybe Microsoft would like to revisit this ??





The irony is that it's Nokia who's really in that hearse.

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post #76 of 85
5,800 out of 127,000 employees is not that much percentage wise! But it could include some highly paid management and sales employees.
post #77 of 85
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Originally Posted by DewMe View Post

This is plain and simple a textbook case of disruptive innovation. Microsoft could not bring themselves to react quickly to the iPhone, iPad, and Android threat because it was not in line with their cash cow business that was still raking in the money hand over fist. When they finally did react they offered a weak compromise solution that tried to hang on to their past, with a tweener tablet solution that tried to pull traditional PC attributes into the tablet domain and a desktop solution that tried to pull tablet attributes into the PC domain. Neither compromise really works.

The future of Microsoft is as uncertain as any other large company at the crossroads between fading past glory and an uncertain future. They could absolutely fail just as quickly as DEC, Kodak, RCA, Allis-Chalmers, etc., have failed. Windows, Office, and the server platforms are okay, but not enough to keep 130k employees profitably engaged. The Nokia merger was a huge mistake. When all is said and done nobody on either side of that fiasco will walk away a winner except those who have already taken their money and ran, Mr Balmer included.

...
Whatever they decide they have to leverage their strengths in their IP and workforce rather than laying off good people, riding the cash cows who aren't looking as healthy as they once did to death, and selling off IP. Once they start selling off their IP like Kodak did you may as we'll start making arrangements for calling hours and flowers.

Good analysis.  However, I think MS actually needs to be much much more aggressive in letting people go.  They need to shrink by like 90%.  You can't reinvent yourself with 50,000 employees.  Most companies don't have the guts to let the people go if they have the money to keep them. They just keep the ship sailing as long as they can. That's certainly what happened at Kodak.  In order to have the Apple scenario, the company usually has to be in dire straights (i.e., run out of money).  The lack of money forces the company to fire people and provide the opportunity to reemerge.   

post #78 of 85
Something to keep in mind: A weakened Microsoft might become a dangerous and desperate Microsoft. They can cause a lot of harm to other techs while on the way down.
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post #79 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Something to keep in mind: A weakened Microsoft might become a dangerous and desperate Microsoft. They can cause a lot of harm to other techs while on the way down.

What makes you think that might be the case?

I happen to think Microsoft is at its worst (culturally, as well as in terms of collateral damage) when they have maximum influence and market power. A Microsoft in decline is less dangerous, don't you think?

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post #80 of 85
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Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

What makes you think that might be the case?

I happen to think Microsoft is at its worst (culturally, as well as in terms of collateral damage) when they have maximum influence and market power. A Microsoft in decline is less dangerous, don't you think?

IMHO they may pull a Nokia using IP aggressively in an effort to slow the decline of their market position. Not that it worked very well for Nokia of course. The early signs are already obvious. Rather than use innovation and creativity to answer Google's advances MS turned to threats, intimidation and half-truth ad campaigns. Pushed hard enough they could become less friendly to Apple at some point too. I doubt all their licensing agreements with Apple are perpetual.
Edited by Gatorguy - 7/16/14 at 6:55pm
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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