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Microsoft to ax 18,000 jobs this year, laying off more than 14% of total workforce - Page 2

post #41 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post

Uh, you realise Ballmer has been gone for 6 months?
Uh, you realize that he was the one who led his company into the situation in the first place. He's only been gone since Feb, I'm sure this was planned in the transition way before it was announced.
post #42 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

Uh, you realize that he was the one who led his company into the situation in the first place. He's only been gone since Feb, I'm sure this was planned in the transition way before it was announced.

Uh you might be sure, but I'll trust more reliable sources such as Forbes than your opinion, sorry.

Though I agree completely that Ballmer was (at least partly) to blame for leading MS into its current catatonic state.
post #43 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

One way -- MS gets out of the hardware business entirely (never should have entered it). Then provide a software and services model for the major mobile players.

And spin/sell off the Xbox!

I agree and I mentioned higher up the thread that, that is what I was half expecting from my readings thus far, this new thing (if I understand correctly) seems a disaster in the making. However, they would then be up against IBM, Oracle and SAP, but I agree perhaps they could do well there, they already do in fact. Yet that isn't what this guy is saying. He wants to put moble first ... unless he means supporting mobile on iOS ... then that I would applaud. Or perhaps he intends to be the equivalent of IBM/ iOS as in Microsoft/ Android. Nah ... what am I thinking ...
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post #44 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post

Uh you might be sure, but I'll trust more reliable sources such as Forbes than your opinion, sorry.

Though I agree completely that Ballmer was (at least partly) to blame for leading MS into its current catatonic state.

It was inevitable, 'the catatonic state' that is, the entire success of Microsoft was built on the ripped off Apple OS (pre OS X) aka Windows, QuickTime aka Windows Media Player and Apple's Mac Office (conceived and commissioned from Gates by Steve for the original Mac). They have flogged those horses to death while Steve continued to move with the times. Their demise has taken a long time, they should be grateful for the free ride they have had and go away.
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post #45 of 104
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post #46 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Being serious for a moment, I have a feeling this guy is too honest about Microsoft's terrible position and at some point he will get yanked out of the big chair by the powers behind the scenes.

I hope not. The honestly and ability to see what is wrong with the company is the first step in making the needed corrections.

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post #47 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

In fairness, Microsoft needs to get rid of almost all Nokia employees. This is actually an absolutely necessary move.

 

In other words, MS should never have purchased Nokia.

 

Somehow, we've got to stop the madness of these mergers and acquisitions--they seem to generate debt rather than profit, and they eliminate jobs, rather than generating them.  It's the opposite of what we should be encouraging business to be doing.  Keep small, keep competitive, keep the eggs in many baskets.

post #48 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I hope not. The honestly and ability to see what is wrong with the company is the first step in making the needed corrections.

I agree totally, in fact they needed this dose of reality years ago but the PR is going to be horrible. I would have said the stock will tank but of course Wall Street loves layoffs ... but how long can that go on?

On a lighter vein ... Who is going to be the one to suggest they close up and give the share holders their money back ... 1biggrin.gif
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post #49 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

Lay-offs, the laziest business strategy. This just proves Ballmer's incompetency even further.

Or it's the most painful way to realize a change in direction. 

 

This is no different than when Apple said 'NO' to the 10 or so products when Steve came back.   Focus, refocus, and focus again.   Microsoft has a couple really hard decisions.  Does it want to be the OS at the endpoint, or the SW people use, because the former means it has to own the Hardware (Nokia, Surface).   I'm reading that they want to be the SW people use, which is now App and Cloud based, not WINDOWS based.

 

IBM has been doing this sort of thing for 30 years (every 5 years lay off 1-5% of their workforce).  While you may consider them a non-factor in your technology world, their profits are pretty close to Microsoft.  (15B compared to 20B).   

 

On that point, Microsoft doesn't have that consulting income that is the gold standard of corporate technology revenue.   You put 3-4 people in a corporation at a $200/hour, and they 'spec' the technology roadmap for your company (because the CEO and CIO don't want techies choosing the 'hot' or the 'legacy' technology to bet the business on.   IBM is pretty much agnostic in most areas of tech, and still control the queen bee (that zOS mainframe that has been churning out the corporate financials for 30 years), have professional and managed services for everything, can cloud if you need to, and has a virtual workforce in India, Brazil, Mexico that generate a huge profit for the mundane 'get ur done' projects.    My guess is that Microsoft will take it's Azure business (effectively what is the access control for every corporate LAN in the F1000) as the spear to the same consulting path, and virtualize MS office to a new app/cloud model, and be expert in milking that for 20 more years.

 

Hence, MS and IBM are now competing for the corporate dollar on 'how' to integrate iOS into the corporate world, yet leaving an 'out' for if android (which the corporate bean counters really want to win, because 'open' (e.g. price competition) is better than 'better').

 

It's a strange new world.   Up is down, east is west, cats sleeping with dogs.  IBM and MS struggling to maintain significance in the technology world,  a 1996 Stanford Graduate project, and a company who was 90 days from bankruptcy in 1998, less than 20 years later are calling the shots, and pushing the how the world works.

post #50 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I agree totally, in fact they needed this dose of reality years ago but the PR is going to be horrible. I would have said the stock will tank but of course Wall Street loves layoffs ... but how long can that go on?

The 5 Stages of Loss
  1. Denial
  2. Anger
  3. Bargaining
  4. Depression
  5. Acceptance

Acceptance is a good thing. They might ultimately fail but at least now they can work on potential solutions that aren't the same dead ends they've been pushing.

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post #51 of 104
That leaves 109'00 employees all working on fixing the flaws with Windows and office - Good luck
post #52 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

MS took the easy out -- layoffs ease the pain, but don't cure the disease.

MS needs to decide, strategically, which businesses in can succeed in.

As JLG said it:
http://www.mondaynote.com/2014/07/13/microsofts-new-ceo-needs-an-editor/

Where does the Xbox fit?
I think Microsoft should spin off its hardware businesses into a separate company. Trying to be horizontal and vertical at the same time makes no sense. And I think it's a worrying sign if the CEO needs 3,000 words to describe the company's mission.

This is how Jony Ive described Apple's mission in a Businessweek interview last year:

http://www.businessweek.com/printer/articles/155086-apples-jonathan-ive-and-craig-federighi-the-complete-interview
Quote:
"This is probably a clumsy definition, but I think we try to make tools for people that enable them to do things they couldn’t without the tool. But we want them to not have to be preoccupied with the tool."

Simple two line statement that succinctly explains what Apple is all about. That's what Microsoft needs to get down to. Especially the last sentence about users not having to be preoccupied with the tool. Having said that. I do think some of the reactions anytime Microsoft does something remind me of the cliché things haters say about Apple. Obviously Wall Street is giving Nadella/Microsoft the thumbs up. Stock is up over 16% this year and I wouldn't be surprised if it passes Google in market cap soon.
post #53 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


MS can afford to keep them monetarily. It's not good for business to have too many redundant employees. Hence why WS loves layoffs.

 

If MS were to go out of business that would cause the greatest productivity increase in 30 years

post #54 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

When founders leave (Gates, Ballmer, Jobs, Dell, etc.) the bean counters usually take over. It then becomes all about maximizing profits, cutting costs, maintaining the status quo, not rocking the boat. Tim Cook has shown signs of that behavior too, just not as much. Time will tell with him.

I think it's a bit more complex than that ...

Frequently, when a company grows rapidly, it exceeds the founders' ability to understand and manage the growth. Often, as Gates did , the founders will step aside and hire an experienced professional.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/28/business/business-people-tandy-executive-made-president-of-microsoft.html


John Shirley from RadioShack in Gates case, Erick Schmidt in Brin's case.

Some times the founders will watch, learn and participate -- OTJ training to earn their big-boy pants ... Then, later, reassume the leadership role.


I suspect, that in the Jobs2 era, Cook was brought on board to manage the operations side of things. As Apple entered into a period of explosive growth, Cook, having proven himself, was promoted to COO and Jobs stepped aside to manage the creative side.

That was the right move for both, IMO.
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post #55 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

It was inevitable, 'the catatonic state' that is, the entire success of Microsoft was built on the ripped off Apple OS (pre OS X) aka Windows, QuickTime aka Windows Media Player and Apple's Mac Office (conceived and commissioned from Gates by Steve for the original Mac). They have flogged those horses to death while Steve continued to move with the times. Their demise has taken a long time, they should be grateful for the free ride they have had and go away.

Yup. They seem to have such a hard time in new product segments, apart from the Xbox, which is their only real home-grown success story. They add useless bloat that no one wants, using these new "features" as an attempt to justify incompatibility with new versions that are bundled on new PCs. This of course bumps up sales since people can't open the new format on their older version of Office/whatever.

I think part of the reason why their "Windows" branded stuff (phones/tablets/media players etc) flops is due to the bad stigma attached to the Windows name. They don't seem to realise people associate Windows with buggy/slow/virus ridden/insecure/businessy and so continue plastering "Windows" on everything. People associate the same with their phones too, even if it's not really warranted as much. Xbox wasn't associated with Windows and enjoyed pretty good sales, which maybe be the disassociation of it and Windows. Though since most gamers use Windows anyway, if it was "Windows Xbox" they'd likely ignore the association (since they're usually a bit fanboyish toward MS).
post #56 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I agree totally, in fact they needed this dose of reality years ago but the PR is going to be horrible. I would have said the stock will tank but of course Wall Street loves layoffs ... but how long can that go on?

On a lighter vein ... Who is going to be the one to suggest they close up and give the share holders their money back ... 1biggrin.gif
I'm kind of surprised Wall Street is cheering this on so much considering Microsoft was bloated before acquiring Nokia and most of the cuts are coming from that acquisition. They should be asking why Microsoft spent $7.2B on Nokia in the first place.
post #57 of 104

As much as I dislike just about everything MS has done, (except give Stevo $150 mill. and allow Apple to develop a much superior version of Office for the Mac), I hate to see this happen to people.

 

I know it's part of life, but it's tough to be one of the laid off workers. Tough on the families, too.

 

I wish them all the best! :)

 

Chris

post #58 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post

In other words, MS should never have purchased Nokia.

Somehow, we've got to stop the madness of these mergers and acquisitions--they seem to generate debt rather than profit, and they eliminate jobs, rather than generating them.  It's the opposite of what we should be encouraging business to be doing.  Keep small, keep competitive, keep the eggs in many baskets.

Thankfully the US is not a completely command economy, although there is a strong element of corporatism.

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post #59 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post
 

When founders leave (Gates, Ballmer, Jobs, Dell, etc.) the bean counters usually take over. It then becomes all about maximizing profits, cutting costs, maintaining the status quo, not rocking the boat. Tim Cook has shown signs of that behavior too, just not as much. Time will tell with him.

As far as I can tell, Tim has NOT cut costs (other than the standard practice of stiff negotiation with suppliers, which he has been doing for decades as COO).  He has NOT maintained status quo (Beats, IBM, Dividends, Buybacks, etc).  He definitely HAS rocked the boat (see previous).  And he has implemented numerous policies (charity matching, standing up for civil liberties) and processes (moving to green energy, green packaging, green product components ) that actually cut into profits but are aimed at making the company a better one socially and ecologically, which may pay dividends over the long run.  Or it may not.  I'm not here to argue those details, just pointing out that he has done them.  Remember his stern rebuke about the "bloody ROI" to a questioner at a recent quarterly conference call?

 

So I don't think your characterization of Tim Cook's behavior is at all accurate.  It seems to me that his biggest problem is that he is not Steve Jobs.  But then who is?  People point to the fact that Apple hasn't come out with any new world-beating product categories post-Steve (even though Steve himself always took his sweet time for that) and they point out that Tim is doing a lot of things that Steve would never have done.  Their conclusion is that Tim is just a bean-counter and Apple will suffer for it.  He may be a bean-counter, but he knows it.  And he knows who to count on for the other stuff.  I fundamentally disagree that Apple will suffer.  We won't know the truth of that until Apple finally lets the products out of the lab and we get them in our hands.  Then, and only then, will we know whether Apple is still Apple even without Steve.  Time may prove that Tim is actually (dare I say it?) a better CEO for Apple than Steve could have been going forward.  (Not talking about the past, and I'm not saying that Steve's unique talents aren't sorely missed.)

 

But at this point in time, Tim has done nothing to deserve a shred of negativity and has done plenty to applaud.  That is debatable, I realize.  But I truly don't understand your comment that Tim has shown any behavior as CEO that smells like your quote:  "It then becomes all about maximizing profits, cutting costs, maintaining the status quo, not rocking the boat."

post #60 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delayed View Post
 

Uh, you realize that it will take much more than 6 months for the effects of any changes made by his successor to be noticeable, right? These layoffs have been coming for a long time, Ballmer simply left before they were implemented.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post


Uh, really.

Yes, really. Note that the changes he's announcing today will take the rest of the year to complete. Their effects will take much longer to be felt. Not everything (read: most things) takes affect when a decision is made.

post #61 of 104
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post
If you read the post I quoted, you'd see it was a reply to AjbDtc826 claiming Ballmer was to blame for these cuts, when he wasn't the one directly instigating them.

 

He knows that’s your point. That’s not his point.

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post #62 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post
 

 

In other words, MS should never have purchased Nokia.

 

Somehow, we've got to stop the madness of these mergers and acquisitions--they seem to generate debt rather than profit, and they eliminate jobs, rather than generating them.  It's the opposite of what we should be encouraging business to be doing.  Keep small, keep competitive, keep the eggs in many baskets.

 

I wouldn't say that.   

 

I would say... They were 3 years late in purchasing Nokia.

 

If they had purchased Nokia and build the Surface Tablets in 2010,  They had a chance to be a 3rd player vs Android and iOS.  Now... they are not a factor at all... too little too late... too short of runway to make surface a player.

post #63 of 104
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post
The cuts being made under his watch are part of a major attempt to turn the company's fortunes around and take back lost market share in mobile and reinvigorate sales growth in PCs.

 

Obviously "lost market share in mobile" means "market share lost by not selling Office for iPad."

Corporate IT didn't jump through the buy-Surface-to-get-mobile-Office hoop.

Now Office for iPad is a smash hit.  And I think it would have been a smash hit years ago as well.

 

But "reinvigorate sales growth in PCs"?  Good luck with that.

The PC market is mostly commoditized.  Generic.  And it's hard to get the market excited about generic products.

PC sales will rise and fall with the economy, despite Microsoft's best (Windows 7) and worst efforts (Vista, 8).

The real growth in computing is in mobile now.  And Microsoft is DOA in mobile.

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post #64 of 104
Wishful thinking is not a plan. The massive spew of convoluted vision from Microsoft's leadership tells me that they have no idea about how they will survive. The best plans are brutally honest, salient, and simple. Microsoft has lost its way. Don't be surprised to see Bill G return in an active role, whether now or after they axe the next increment of 20K heads.
post #65 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul94544 View Post

If MS were to go out of business that would cause the greatest productivity increase in 30 years

Good one, probably true too!
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post #66 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

As much as I dislike just about everything MS has done, (except give Stevo $150 mill. and allow Apple to develop a much superior version of Office for the Mac), I hate to see this happen to people.

I know it's part of life, but it's tough to be one of the laid off workers. Tough on the families, too.

I wish them all the best! 1smile.gif

Chris

Just for the record ... Office for the Mac was developed for the Mac by Microsoft (I have a set of the original disks), then a far smaller company than Apple, at the request and of the concept of Steve in 1983, in time for the launch or soon thereafter of the Mac in 1984. It didn't exist for a PC because at that time Gates had not yet stolen the Mac OS to develop Windows v1. As soon as he did reverse engineer Mac OS, he of course also purloined the Office concept for his then handlers IBM. He cleverly never signed anything over to IBM though thus allowing the back stab to IBM a few years later when he did the deal with the IBM clones. How IBM's lawyers didn't see this coming and prevent it, given IBM bank rolled Gates screwing over Steve, is beyond me.
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post #67 of 104

Someone brought up a similar path between Jobs and Nadella upon returning. Let's set aside the return part...

 

Nadella gets to the top spot and looks around and doesn't like what he sees. He also knows that this is a golden opportunity to cut jobs where wall street will reward him. Right now it looks prescient and smart. A year from now it will be criticized.

 

Jobs came in and cut shit right out of the product matrix. Even things that seemed forward thinking (Newton) but weren't contributing or had a hazy future.

 

That's where the paths seem to part. Jobs articulated a vision of making great products again and the rest would take care of itself. He had a massive tailwind with NeXTStep promising to springboard Apple's OS into an exciting, unknown future.

 

Nadella has yet to do that. He has a short window to produce the equivalent of Jobs' iMac or even NeXTStep. Their strengths seem to be milking Office for Windows/Mac and Windows OS. Without 3,000 tiring, uninspiring words, how do they move forward?

post #68 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post



The rudder?

 

And if the CEO was from the Netherlands...

Not to make light of the layoffs, but it looks even more dramatic on the heels of the Apple/IBM announcement. It looks like, "Apple and IBM teamed up? Okay, we give up! Bring me a tall stack of pink slips." The good talent will get picked up, but it still sucks to have to get canned.

Steve Jobs once told Walt Mossberg at All Things D that Apple wasn't good at strategic partnerships compared to Microsoft, and that is why (he thought) Apple would never succeed at OS licensing the way Microsoft did. He said it wasn't in Apple's DNA, or words to that effect.

However this type of partnership with IBM sounds like a win win because it allows both companies to do what they are best at. Apple gets to continue being a vertical integrator designing the entire user experience from chips to retail sales, while IBM gets to offer corporate customers business solutions, services, and support. This is the kind of partnership that Apple could use, and I'm glad to see it offered.

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post #69 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

In fairness, Microsoft needs to get rid of almost all Nokia employees. This is actually an absolutely necessary move.

:no:

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post #70 of 104
In the same week, headlines for Apple doing major deal with IBM, and microsoft cutting 14% of it's work force.. Anyone else see a trend? It's pretty simple... Apple is kicking microsoft's tail in every category.
post #71 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by vagvoba View Post

How many of these jobs will be cut in the US? Nokia doesn't have manufacturing facilities in the US. I have the feeling that out of the 18000 layoffs, very few will be in the US.
According to their website they have factories in Brazil, China, Hungary, India, Mexico, South Korea, and Vietnam.
http://www.nokia.com/global/about-us/people-and-planet/operations/production-facilities/production-facilities/
Regarding engineering, marketing, sales, those employees are all over the world, especially the ones related to Nokia.

Sadly when things like this happens the good get let go along with the bad. I would imagine big cuts would happen in Brazil first due to the nature of the economy there. But that won't be the only operation wiped out.

In the end this just demonstrates how stupid MS purchase of Nokia was. A total waste of money. It would have been better for Nokia to go tits up before the MS purchase.
post #72 of 104
Quoting the torso zombie from Return Of The Living Dead*

"it hurts to be dead..."

also

"brains brains brains brains BRAAAAINS!..."

*http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_of_the_Living_Dead
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post #73 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

As much as I dislike just about everything MS has done, (except give Stevo $150 mill. and allow Apple to develop a much superior version of Office for the Mac), I hate to see this happen to people.

I know it's part of life, but it's tough to be one of the laid off workers. Tough on the families, too.

I wish them all the best! 1smile.gif

Chris
This is most certainly true. Lay offs like this hit the useful as hard as the useless! In some cases the people laid off will never work in the cell phone industry again.
post #74 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


This is most certainly true. Lay offs like this hit the useful as hard as the useless! In some cases the people laid off will never work in the cell phone industry again.

Yep, good points, Wiz. :)

post #75 of 104

I am surprised that the mainstream media hasn't come out and said that since MS is having to layoff it's workforce, Apple is dead.

 

Usually this news = Apple Death Knell +1 ;)

 

I do truly feel sorry for the employees.

post #76 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by iaeen View Post


If Microsoft goes under, you will lose 100% of the jobs rather than 14%

Be still, my heart!!
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #77 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinpublic View Post

In the same week, headlines for Apple doing major deal with IBM, and microsoft cutting 14% of it's work force.. Anyone else see a trend? It's pretty simple... Apple is kicking microsoft's tail in every category.

I can imagine that of the remaining Nokia employees, that morale is at an all time low. The executioner is only catching his breath before finishing the job.

As a final insult, each fired employee was given a Surface RT (keyboard not included) as they were ushered out the door...
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #78 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinpublic View Post

In the same week, headlines for Apple doing major deal with IBM, and microsoft cutting 14% of it's work force.. Anyone else see a trend? It's pretty simple... Apple is kicking microsoft's tail in every category.
So that's why Microsoft stock is at a 14 year high right now?
post #79 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg View Post

Yup. They seem to have such a hard time in new product segments, apart from the Xbox, which is their only real home-grown success story. They add useless bloat that no one wants, using these new "features" as an attempt to justify incompatibility with new versions that are bundled on new PCs. This of course bumps up sales since people can't open the new format on their older version of Office/whatever.

I think part of the reason why their "Windows" branded stuff (phones/tablets/media players etc) flops is due to the bad stigma attached to the Windows name. They don't seem to realise people associate Windows with buggy/slow/virus ridden/insecure/businessy and so continue plastering "Windows" on everything. People associate the same with their phones too, even if it's not really warranted as much. Xbox wasn't associated with Windows and enjoyed pretty good sales, which maybe be the disassociation of it and Windows. Though since most gamers use Windows anyway, if it was "Windows Xbox" they'd likely ignore the association (since they're usually a bit fanboyish toward MS).

All you say is true, yet... all the Xbox cartons are free of the Microsoft name and logo (unless it's in small type somewhere). I still half-wonder if Microsoft wouldn't love to sell that off too if the right opportunity came along.
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #80 of 104
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


He has been on the hot line to Blackberry for tips on this obviously ... 1biggrin.gif


Losing jobs is fun for you I guess. You claim you are using Apple products since II,  so you may remember when Apple was laying off people and kissed M$ a$$ for $150 000 000. Great feeling, don't you agree

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