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ISIL: Less Moderate Than al Qaeda

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

I wouldn't want my 1,800 year old church burnt down and my taxes are already high enough without an additional moderate jiza tax, so life under less moderate ISIL (also known as ISIS) for me just wouldn't sit comfortably. Even in moderate Iran cigarettes would be burned on my lips for not fasting during ramadan by less moderate Sharia judges. But, when the moderates come and try to spread their faith, sprinkled with a little dirty bomb dust and blunt knives, I won't have much choice in the matter.  

 

"McGurk said the group had strengthened its capabilities and is “no longer a terrorist organization. It is a full-blown army.”

 

The testimony from senior officials sparked alarm and frustration on Capitol Hill, where lawmakers said more should have been done to counter ISIS sooner.

 

Over the weekend, Attorney General Eric Holder said the threat of ISIS fighters infiltrating the U.S. was “more frightening than anything I think I’ve seen as attorney general.”

 

Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge told The Hill on Wednesday that the threat from ISIS had been “blinking red a long time.”

 

“Now it’s flashing more frequently and is a lot brighter,” he said. “They’ve got a lot of fighters who are from European countries that are visa waiver countries, which means all they have to do is shave their beards and look like normal, responsible civilians and walk into the United States of America without a visa.

 

“It’s a real challenge for our intelligence community to identify them and get their names on a watch list.”"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/islamic-state-no-longer-a-terrorist-organization-it-is-a-full-blown-army

 

So, is Obama doing enough to keep us safe and how do you think we should deal with ISIL?

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #2 of 15

They’ve apparently declared a jihad on the moderates (namely the Saudis and other far left Islamic branches), which is both hilarious and horrifying.

 

As for how to deal with them, given we didn’t do the job correctly the first time and our current milquetoast foreign policy leader, why not just let them kill each other for a change? You know, leave the western powers out of the whole clusterbomb and just protect our existing assets–domestic and foreign (in safe places)–which we’re not doing anyway.

 

I know what you’re thinking: “Doesn’t that just allow the caliphate to be created? What happens if they become some sort of a power?” Well, then we do the standard “blockade and embargo until the country starves and collapses” like North Korea, et. al.

 

Because apparently some magical date was reached or decision was made whereafter “the lines on the map can never change again, ever, for any reason, and you are evil for even suggesting that a war should end in the annexation of new lands”. No sense getting involved when–thanks to partial revocation of sovereignty vis a vis psychotic international law–war can apparently never result in gains for the victor.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

They’ve apparently declared a jihad on the moderates (namely the Saudis and other far left Islamic branches), which is both hilarious and horrifying.

 

As for how to deal with them, given we didn’t do the job correctly the first time and our current milquetoast foreign policy leader, why not just let them kill each other for a change? You know, leave the western powers out of the whole clusterbomb and just protect our existing assets–domestic and foreign (in safe places)–which we’re not doing anyway.

 

I know what you’re thinking: “Doesn’t that just allow the caliphate to be created? What happens if they become some sort of a power?” Well, then we do the standard “blockade and embargo until the country starves and collapses” like North Korea, et. al.

 

Because apparently some magical date was reached or decision was made whereafter “the lines on the map can never change again, ever, for any reason, and you are evil for even suggesting that a war should end in the annexation of new lands”. No sense getting involved when–thanks to partial revocation of sovereignty vis a vis psychotic international law–war can apparently never result in gains for the victor.

If only we had the luxury of sitting back and letting the crisis resolve itself, life would be truly better, but we don't.

 

Here's how it works-

 

To defeat this-

burka-ban-300.jpg

 

You need this-

IDF soldiers rolling into Gaza

 

"An Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldier in the field told the Jerusalem Post that while Hamas fighters offered fierce resistance when the ground operation began, now Hamas operatives are fleeing, abandoning their positions, leaving behind weapons that the IDF is using to expand its assault on the terror group."

~ http://www.barenakedislam.com/2014/07/26/idf-reports-hamas-morale-collapsing-as-fighters-flee-their-positions/

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I know what you’re thinking: “Doesn’t that just allow the caliphate to be created? What happens if they become some sort of a power?” Well, then we do the standard “blockade and embargo until the country starves and collapses” like North Korea, et. al.

 

I see your point, but the problem is that we don't necessarily have this luxury.

If you look at Afghanistan under the Taliban as a prime example: even that pariah state was able to provide aid and safe harbour for jihadists.

 

So there is a sense in which the western world can not really afford to be disengaged from groups like the so-called Islamic State.

Having said that, I don't think this means that we need to automatically go in and fight them - but certainly it's possible to support local forces (such as the Iraqis, or the Kurds) in their efforts.

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

I see your point, but the problem is that we don't necessarily have this luxury.

If you look at Afghanistan under the Taliban as a prime example: even that pariah state was able to provide aid and safe harbour for jihadists.

 

So there is a sense in which the western world can not really afford to be disengaged from groups like the so-called Islamic State.

Having said that, I don't think this means that we need to automatically go in and fight them - but certainly it's possible to support local forces (such as the Iraqis, or the Kurds) in their efforts.

There's no way that we can stop ISIL without a significant amount of ground forces. How many I don't know, but the longer we do too little, the worse it is going to get. Across Europe now there are large numbers of Muslims who, whilst they may not travel to fight, are on the side of some form of caliphate, including the IS. Obama dragged his feet and let them advance through Iraq and so now they're far harder to deal with. Going after the top brass in Syria will have little overall effect. It's probably going to take a pretty big terrorist attack on the US, or the UK, for Obama to take any serious action.

 

One thing we all need to do is stop letting our politician's get away with describing Islam as a peaceful religion. Islam has never been and will never be peaceful. It is exactly because our current politician's have fed us this lie that we are in this mess today. 

 

We have no chance of converting enough Muslims or seeing any honest and serious reformation happen within Islam, so we are left with simply stopping them from attacking us, like you say. That should include not letting so many Muslims into our countries (none would be just fine with me) and deporting ones who are already here who are against our constitution and values. 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

There's no way that we can stop ISIL without a significant amount of ground forces. 

 

It's a little too early to really say this, but early indications are that the combination of U.S. airstrikes, Peshmerga forces from Kurdistan, and Iraqi commandos, are driving back ISIL. Their progress has slowed greatly because they now know that they can't travel in large groups (and thus can not make the rapid progress they have been making). 

 

I also think we need to see what happens in terms of the new Iraqi Prime Minister and how he can (or can not) bring about a more collaborative government. It seems clear that people who live in ISIL-held territory are afraid, and are generally not supportive of ISIL (even if they were at the very beginning).

 

As far as the broader question of Islam and its impacts - I'm probably a bit more of a fence-sitter in terms of my view. I think the key aspect in the longer term is to empower moderate (and especially secular) Muslims. The broader struggle against a growing Islamic Caliphate can't be won, in my view, purely through non-Muslims keeping Islam in check. I think there is a sense in which this view could contribute to greater radicalisation (I hate that term, it feels like a non-word).

 

If you look at a country such as Iran for example, which has a long and proud secular tradition - the majority of University students in the country today are opposed to the theocracy. We have seen the outbursts against the government, which have unfortunately resulted in severe government crackdowns. In my view, we (the West), should be heavily supporting those demonstrators - the very people who have the local cultural weight to shake off the shackles of Islamic theocracy.

 

In Western countries that are seeing some internal threat from Islamic ideologies - sure, the legal system should be protected and Shariah should be utterly rejected. And sure, there should be reasonable anti-terrorism laws, as well as policies that strongly encourage assimilation and secularism. But I think that's only half the equation; the other half is to leverage and "bring in" the moderate and secular Muslims, who must be in a position to "change the beast within".

 

As a side note, I do think we have to continue to carefully separate criticism of a venomous ideology with criticism of a nationality or ethnicity. I do think that point must continually be made.

post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

It's a little too early to really say this, but early indications are that the combination of U.S. airstrikes, Peshmerga forces from Kurdistan, and Iraqi commandos, are driving back ISIL. Their progress has slowed greatly because they now know that they can't travel in large groups (and thus can not make the rapid progress they have been making). 

 

I also think we need to see what happens in terms of the new Iraqi Prime Minister and how he can (or can not) bring about a more collaborative government. It seems clear that people who live in ISIL-held territory are afraid, and are generally not supportive of ISIL (even if they were at the very beginning).

 

As far as the broader question of Islam and its impacts - I'm probably a bit more of a fence-sitter in terms of my view. I think the key aspect in the longer term is to empower moderate (and especially secular) Muslims. The broader struggle against a growing Islamic Caliphate can't be won, in my view, purely through non-Muslims keeping Islam in check. I think there is a sense in which this view could contribute to greater radicalisation (I hate that term, it feels like a non-word).

 

If you look at a country such as Iran for example, which has a long and proud secular tradition - the majority of University students in the country today are opposed to the theocracy. We have seen the outbursts against the government, which have unfortunately resulted in severe government crackdowns. In my view, we (the West), should be heavily supporting those demonstrators - the very people who have the local cultural weight to shake off the shackles of Islamic theocracy.

 

In Western countries that are seeing some internal threat from Islamic ideologies - sure, the legal system should be protected and Shariah should be utterly rejected. And sure, there should be reasonable anti-terrorism laws, as well as policies that strongly encourage assimilation and secularism. But I think that's only half the equation; the other half is to leverage and "bring in" the moderate and secular Muslims, who must be in a position to "change the beast within".

 

As a side note, I do think we have to continue to carefully separate criticism of a venomous ideology with criticism of a nationality or ethnicity. I do think that point must continually be made.

The less outside help the better, but not if by less help we get pulled in deeper later. Clearly ISIL is becoming increasingly dangerous and clawing back some places won't make up for their gains. This whole situation is getting impossibly worse.  

 

I agree that we certainly must encourage moderate Muslims to fight tyrannical theocratic regimes. The problem we face though is that Islam is a particularly politically based religion, especially amongst the bulk of todays Muslims worldwide. Sharia law, far from being pushed aside is making a comeback in much of the Islamic world. We are heading in the wrong direction overall and we have limited power to stop it. We have even made it worse in a lot of places.

 

I'm with you on not attributing Islam's curses onto people simply because they are say, Pakistani, and I'm strongly against that. But issues of immigration, national identity and the cohesion of a countries peoples are extremely important. 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

I agree that we certainly must encourage moderate Muslims to fight tyrannical theocratic regimes. The problem we face though is that Islam is a particularly politically based religion, especially amongst the bulk of todays Muslims worldwide. Sharia law, far from being pushed aside is making a comeback in much of the Islamic world. We are heading in the wrong direction overall and we have limited power to stop it. We have even made it worse in a lot of places.

 

 

I agree that elements like Sharia are making a comeback, and in ways that perhaps couldn't have been easily predicted (i.e. the idea that where people have been able to, they have often deliberately voted for Sharia, which is a essentially a vote in favour of slavery under theocracy).

 

But although I agree the situation is very dire, I think the fundamental point that comes back to me, is that our efforts ("our" meaning the West) really have to be in concert with Muslim communities as much as possible. I am in favour of strong interventions where I think they are necessary (I actually agreed with going into Iraq originally for example), but it's definitely true that in the longer term, the ultimate goal (presumably) is to have moderate (and hopefully secular), stable, democratic communities - at least of a sort.

 

I think Muslim communities have to see it in their interest to fight theocracy, and to befriend the West. And, I must say...this is the case in many places as I said earlier - especially countries like Iran, where the feeling runs quite deep. So there are shades of grey to this, even though I definitely accept the growing dangers of Islamic theocracy around the world.

post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

I agree that elements like Sharia are making a comeback, and in ways that perhaps couldn't have been easily predicted (i.e. the idea that where people have been able to, they have often deliberately voted for Sharia, which is a essentially a vote in favour of slavery under theocracy).

 

But although I agree the situation is very dire, I think the fundamental point that comes back to me, is that our efforts ("our" meaning the West) really have to be in concert with Muslim communities as much as possible. I am in favour of strong interventions where I think they are necessary (I actually agreed with going into Iraq originally for example), but it's definitely true that in the longer term, the ultimate goal (presumably) is to have moderate (and hopefully secular), stable, democratic communities - at least of a sort.

 

I think Muslim communities have to see it in their interest to fight theocracy, and to befriend the West. And, I must say...this is the case in many places as I said earlier - especially countries like Iran, where the feeling runs quite deep. So there are shades of grey to this, even though I definitely accept the growing dangers of Islamic theocracy around the world.

Even in the West there are large numbers of ISIL supporters. We are in for real trouble in Europe-

 

"One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.

The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS. This percentage increases among younger respondents, spiking at 27% for those aged 18-24.

A recent Ifop poll placed French president Francois Hollande’s approval rating at just 18%."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/poll-one-in-six-french-citizens-supports-the-islamic-state

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #10 of 15
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
Even in the West there are large numbers of ISIL supporters. One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS...

 

It’s important to note that this is only because one in six people in France (I hesitate to even say ‘frenchmen’) have immigrated from the Middle East. At the risk of sounding unkind, many native French people would prefer to kick them out. 

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

It’s important to note that this is only because one in six people in France (I hesitate to even say ‘frenchmen’) have immigrated from the Middle East. At the risk of sounding unkind, many native French people would prefer to kick them out. 

 

Yes, I think there's some validity to this. The irony of the whole situation is that as dangerous as militant Islamic groups are in and of themselves, they are also spurring a powerful right-wing backlash in parts of Europe. Some of these right-wing groups are also quite dangerous, I'd say. That is, their perspectives move beyond a reasonable position and end up becoming outwardly racist, anti-immigration, etc etc...

 

So the dangers of militant Islam go well beyond militant Islam itself, and I think this aspect is often not noted.

post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

It’s important to note that this is only because one in six people in France (I hesitate to even say ‘frenchmen’) have immigrated from the Middle East. At the risk of sounding unkind, many native French people would prefer to kick them out. 

Exactly the same unfortunate people in Australia- http://www.barenakedislam.com/2014/09/07/australia-islamic-state-isis-terrorist-group-flag-auctioned-off-at-a-sydney-mosque/

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

Yes, I think there's some validity to this. The irony of the whole situation is that as dangerous as militant Islamic groups are in and of themselves, they are also spurring a powerful right-wing backlash in parts of Europe. Some of these right-wing groups are also quite dangerous, I'd say. That is, their perspectives move beyond a reasonable position and end up becoming outwardly racist, anti-immigration, etc etc...

 

So the dangers of militant Islam go well beyond militant Islam itself, and I think this aspect is often not noted.

Very true. There's going to be a lot of growth in extremist views to deal with Islam in the West. Some of that will undoubtedly be a step too far. Unless our politicians really act, it's going to get bad. The press need to play their part as well, notably the BBC, who still are treating their viewers with utter contempt by forever not blaming Islam.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

Very true. There's going to be a lot of growth in extremist views to deal with Islam in the West. Some of that will undoubtedly be a step too far. Unless our politicians really act, it's going to get bad. The press need to play their part as well, notably the BBC, who still are treating their viewers with utter contempt by forever not blaming Islam.

 

Agree. In Australia, we are really in the midst of balancing this I think. 

The government has been pretty active in terms of looking at ways to combat ISIS/IS, and the knowledge that several Australian citizens have gone over to fight on their behalf is incredibly worrying - again, the government here is taking very active steps around that situation as well.

 

So far, IS has been so barbaric that very few have really criticised our government's actions in this area, but I do worry a little that over time they will just be accused of being "racist" when in fact they are attempting to fight an enemy that is genuinely a threat to all civilised, secular democracies in one way or another.

post #15 of 15
Thread Starter 
The more, and it will be more, the stranglehold of Islam inflicts western countries, the more they'll gain followers and enemies. It's our duty to make sure they lose.
 
Australia, is under the grip of the same forces as other countries, so keep a close eye on what really transpires. The rhetoric alone is far from enough.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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