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Bose files lawsuit against Apple's Beats over noise canceling tech - Page 2

post #41 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masteric View Post

Beats has been around for how long? They wait until Apple is in the process of buying Beats to sue?

 

My thoughts exactly.

Apple's lawyers will deal with them.

post #42 of 95
Lol... This is sooooo funny.
All these years no action.( if there is any validity to their claim to start with )

But as soon as Apple shows up Bose gets into action.

Bose: "lets see if we can deep our toes in some if apples cash? Woohaha ha "

Pathetic and a very wrong PR move !
post #43 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Neither Bose or Beats are premium.
Hardly speakers/headphones/subwoofers are premium if you can find it at Best Buy
I recently went looking for headphones at Best Buy and all they has were Beats over the ear crap and Skullcandy. I ended up getting a pair of Sennheiser's at Office Depot!
post #44 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

Neither Bose or Beats are premium.

Hardly speakers/headphones/subwoofers are premium if you can find it at Best Buy

B.O.S.E. = Bunch Of Shitty Equipment

post #45 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Potsie Webber View Post

B.O.S.E. = Bunch Of Shitty Equipment
Best thing about Bose headphones is their noise canceling technology.
post #46 of 95
Bose stock is privately held mostly by M.I.T. now I believe. So one has to assume M.I.T. are going to have some input here.
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post #47 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

Neither Bose or Beats are premium.

Hardly speakers/headphones/subwoofers are premium if you can find it at Best Buy

 

Most, if not all, of the major name brands you find at Best Buy are special models made for that demographic. Klipsch does the same thing. You would never find their Reference line in Best Buy but you find a cheaper version that has the Klipsch logo on it.  Same goes for HDTVs from Sharp, Samsung, etc. Check the specs and model numbers and compare with the high end audio/video stores and you immediately see the difference.

post #48 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredumb View Post

The curious thing is that Bose didn't wait until the deal was done, if you wanted to assume the deeper-pockets rationale.

Perhaps it's that Bose wants to scotch that deal and interpose themselves in a partnership with Apple?

 


Problem with that. If they announce they are buying in May, then paperwork and signatures are being put on paperwork, or has already. The months following are the ironing out different things. It's like getting a quote to have work done. When you sign the quote you are saying let's move forward with this. So in May, the day after, hell even today or tomorrow, if Apple backs out, then whatever clause they have in "cancelling" section will take effect.

 


So, basically YES, bose waited until Apple started the buying process. THEN put in the lawsuit. IF bose patents are actually technical not general, then Apple will prob settle out of court, or maybe even Beats will before full take over. BUT if they are general, then I see Apple going to court and having their little patents voided. I mean general ones usual do when courts are concerned. Hell, I can patent AIR, but if I sue someone for breathing, and go to court, it's a general and will be thrown out.

 


Apple prob had their tech teams looking into this right now to see if it is technical aspects or general aspects.

 


 

You don't want to make me curmudgeon, you would not like me when I am curmudgeon.  I go all caps, bold, with a 72PT font and green lettering.  

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You don't want to make me curmudgeon, you would not like me when I am curmudgeon.  I go all caps, bold, with a 72PT font and green lettering.  

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post #49 of 95
I'm missing something with regard to Bose waiting to file. Multiple people have said "that's normal." But in other threads about patent suits, people regularly defend them by saying "you have to defend your IP or you'll lose them." This implies that if you wait or don't sue, then the defendant can petition the court "it must not have been that important to them; look how they sat on their heels." How does that not apply here? Can't Beats tell the court "they waited 10 years to sue; toss this out"?
post #50 of 95
Well, no more Bose purchases for me. And, I've bought several in the past including LifeStyle 535 and SoundTouch 20

What strikes me is how awful these products are. My LifeStyle535, their top-of-the-line TV surround system, does not even have WiFi built in. Crazy. And my SoundTouch came with the absolute worst Mac app I've ever used. The company is incapable of doing software

Bose is in a very bad place. And suing what is effectively Apple is going to make things even worse for them

Windows survivor - after a long, epic and painful struggle. Very long AAPL

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Windows survivor - after a long, epic and painful struggle. Very long AAPL

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post #51 of 95

Friends don't let friend buy Bose.

 

I too once was sucked into their sexy tiny Accustimass 10 series IV home theater system.  After getting tired of watching movies with subtitles on (because they have no mid-range frequency-- like where all the voice dialog is), that's when I started doing a bit of research and found out what a joke they are.

 

I sold the whole thing on Craigslist and bought a real system, and never looked back.

 

Do yourself a favor, and avoid Bose.  (At least their speakers, don't know about their headphones).

post #52 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Perhaps your ears are better at picking up variations in deep bass sounds than mine, but I find it extremely difficult to tell apart a (decent) $400 v. $4000 subwoofer.

 

I bet you could.

 

The difference is (as another poster pointed out) is mainly how much volume (room size) you need to fill.  A under-sized subwoofer will be over-driven on low notes (like that rumbling sound effect that can be frequently heard in action movies), that results in the voice coil literally knocking the limits of its travel range.  Instead of a nice smooth rumble, it sounds more like a farting noise.

 

The movie Gravity is what convinced me to finally upgrade my Definitive Technology SuperCube 8" to a 12" sub.  I do not listen to movies at a high-volume either, but the difference is like night and day.

post #53 of 95
post #54 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masteric View Post

Beats has been around for how long? They wait until Apple is in the process of buying Beats to sue?

The curious thing is that Bose didn't wait until the deal was done, if you wanted to assume the deeper-pockets rationale.

Perhaps it's that Bose wants to scotch that deal and interpose themselves in a partnership with Apple?

 

The acquisition will be closed before this is settled. Bose will get in those deep pockets sooner or later.

Unless you know for certain that Apple couldn't back out of the deal if this made them want to...

then you haven't really altered my point, have you?

post #55 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkBlade View Post

Problem with that. If they announce they are buying in May, then paperwork and signatures are being put on paperwork, or has already. The months following are the ironing out different things...

…problem with that, if they say the deal is finalized in September, then it isn't final in July, and if something happens in July

to make you reconsider what you thought you'd want to do in April…well, then.

Not sure why it's so hard to accept that possibility - deals fall apart all the time, for both big and small reasons - in this case, the possibility of

doom for your intended acquisition.

post #56 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masteric View Post

Beats has been around for how long? They wait until Apple is in the process of buying Beats to sue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post
 

Agreed. Bose is hoping for an easy settlement from someone with deep pockets.

 

I think you guys put exactly zero thought into this, because it's ridiculous. Either company can afford the payout, but which do you think retains a better legal team? It's more likely that they want to enact this against Beats rather than face litigation with Apple.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

Apple needs to have some kind of clause in the contract, that Beats is liable for all copyright infringements and any other lawsuits that might happen, relating to all Beats operations and products before the date that Apple officially buys them.

There is no such thing if they are absorbing this company. I don't think they will retain Beats as a wholly owned subsidiary. In buying the company they gain both its assets and liabilities. Now if this company is absorbed, who do you think would pay this? Beyond that who would pay for the perpetual licensing costs if applicable?

post #57 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
 

Noise cancellation is a relatively straight-forward concept, and has been taught in physics classes and used for decades in numerous applications -- well before Bose entered the consumer headphone market.

 

Beats is a material threat to Bose because in only a few years, they've taken over the higher priced headphone market that Bose used to lead in revenue share. Bose is now trying to kneecap their most formidable competitor and take the competing headphone business down several notches.

 

 

While I won't pretend to know Bose's specific patented implementation, noise-cancellation is usually done by having a microphone pick up the ambient noise and then feeding that signal out of phase into the headphone.    The actual noise and the inverted noise cancel each other out.   The only thing special and unique is how you process the signal coming through the microphone to match the sound of the noise heard through the pads of the headphones.   

 

This technique was used by the Grateful Dead decades ago in order to up the volume of live concerts without feedback.   In their case, they used two microphones wired out of phase with each other.   If you spoke close to the primary microphone, the signal came through but the ambient noise that came through both microphones (one out of phase) cancelled the feedback or any other background noise.    

 

If you take a stereo recording, take the stereo output and reverse the phase of one channel and then combine it into mono, everything that's mono on the stereo recording will disappear, usually low bass and most of the vocals except for the stereo echo return.     Same principle.  

 

So there's definitely prior art out there.

 

While Beats has become very large, I wonder if they've really taken substantial share away from Bose's high-end customers or whether they've really created a new market for themselves, since they appeal most to people who listen to rap/hip-hop who I suspect weren't big buyers of Bose' high-end noise-cancelling phones.    

 

As for the timing of the lawsuit, Bose could have made a mistake - they probably should have waited until the deal closed if their intent was to sue the party with the deeper pockets.   Even though Apple's due diligence period is probably over, if the deal hasn't been signed, there could still be adjustments made or there could have been indemnification built into the original deal.   There usually is, but at best, Apple comes out even if they lose and that's if they don't have to take any of Beats' headphones off of the market. 

post #58 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yojimbo007 View Post

Lol... This is sooooo funny.
All these years no action.( if there is any validity to their claim to start with )

But as soon as Apple shows up Bose gets into action.

Bose: "lets see if we can deep our toes in some if apples cash? Woohaha ha "

Pathetic and a very wrong PR move !

 

There is nothing to gain by suing a company with no money. They are doing the right thing for their stockholders at this time. Besides, Apple may simply settle once Beats is in the fold. However, Apple should further negotiate the company sale price down accordingly until it hurts.

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GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #59 of 95

I don't have a problem to this in theory, but the timing is definitely asinine. Beats has been stealing Bose technology and doing well in the marketplace... but it wasn't worth suing until it was owned by Apple. That just reeks of poor form, IMHO.

post #60 of 95
Apple has worked with Boss in the past I hope that they can resolve this quickly and if not, buy boss! They have more experience than beats, I guess.
post #61 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

Apple could always turn around and decide to buy Bose, Klipsch, Polk, Audio Research, JBL, Audio Technica and others in the future... 

 

 

 

I doubt any of those have any forward thinking technology or assets worth owning to Apple.  Beats, for better or worse, did.

post #62 of 95
I was at 5th ave Apple Store this afternoon. There are tons of Bose speakers and headphones at display and for sell. Had Bose done a channel check to see how many Bose speakers and headphone Apple move before they filed the law suit?
post #63 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

There is nothing to gain by suing a company with no money. They are doing the right thing for their stockholders at this time. Besides, Apple may simply settle once Beats is in the fold. However, Apple should further negotiate the company sale price down accordingly until it hurts.

So why not sue Beats before they get any kind of marketshare? I haven't seen any inklings that Bose has consistently warned them of patent infringement.
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post #64 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

Well, no more Bose purchases for me. And, I've bought several in the past including LifeStyle 535 and SoundTouch 20

What strikes me is how awful these products are. My LifeStyle535, their top-of-the-line TV surround system, does not even have WiFi built in. Crazy. And my SoundTouch came with the absolute worst Mac app I've ever used. The company is incapable of doing software

 

Why did you buy these even before this lawsuit, given these issues?

post #65 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

Apple needs to have some kind of clause in the contract, that Beats is liable for all copyright infringements and any other lawsuits that might happen, relating to all Beats operations and products before the date that Apple officially buys them.

 

If Apple buys Beats, it buys Beats' liabilities. Who else do you imagine would pay any settlement? Even if Apple set aside all of Beats's cash (which it could certainly do without), a settlement that exceeded the cash available would go against the value generated by Beats's former assets. 

 

It's always buyer beware in corporate acquisitions, as Chevron has learned to its cost in Ecuador. Fortunately, there's much less in the way of politics in the Bose-Beats/Apple suit. 

post #66 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

There is nothing to gain by suing a company with no money. They are doing the right thing for their stockholders at this time. Besides, Apple may simply settle once Beats is in the fold. However, Apple should further negotiate the company sale price down accordingly until it hurts.

 

I don't have the exact figures, but I recall Beats being a reasonably profitable company, especially in terms of headphone sales. What gives the impression that they would not be able to pay up? As I said before, it seems like dealing with Apple's legal department would be a much bigger obstacle and possibly much more expensive.

post #67 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Perhaps your ears are better at picking up variations in deep bass sounds than mine, but I find it extremely difficult to tell apart a (decent) $400 v. $4000 subwoofer.

The biggest difference between a (decent) $400 subwoofer and a $4000 subwoofer is not what you can hear but what you can feel. The bass frequencies that a $4000 subwoofer does better than a $400 subwoofer are below what most of us can hear. But that doesn't mean that we can't feel the air moving as those bass waves pass by. 

post #68 of 95
I'd imagine Apple took contractual precautions to deduct such predictable legal flack from Beats financial end of the deal.
post #69 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

I'm missing something with regard to Bose waiting to file. Multiple people have said "that's normal." But in other threads about patent suits, people regularly defend them by saying "you have to defend your IP or you'll lose them." This implies that if you wait or don't sue, then the defendant can petition the court "it must not have been that important to them; look how they sat on their heels." How does that not apply here? Can't Beats tell the court "they waited 10 years to sue; toss this out"?

 

That's with trademarks.  Patents don't fall into a use or lose scenario.  (Copyrights either).

post #70 of 95
The technology was pioneered by Lotus, the vehicle manufacturer, are they, in turn, gonna sue Bose?
post #71 of 95
It takes some time to pick apart the electronics of another company and see if they infringe on patents.

And I guess Bose didn't even consider that possibility before Beats suddenly became popular. Don't forget how fast beats rose from invisible to important in the industry. It's doubtful Bose 'waited' or is using the opportunity, this looks more like Beats just wasn't a big enough player before and they didn't even check if they infringed on patents. I've been using QuietComfort for years, I've tried Beats several times and the sound quality / distortion is so bad, Bose might not have considered it to be worth it, because it was unimaginable these Headphones would become popular.
post #72 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknwntrr View Post

It takes some time to pick apart the electronics of another company and see if they infringe on patents.

And I guess Bose didn't even consider that possibility before Beats suddenly became popular. Don't forget how fast beats rose from invisible to important in the industry. It's doubtful Bose 'waited' or is using the opportunity, this looks more like Beats just wasn't a big enough player before and they didn't even check if they infringed on patents. I've been using QuietComfort for years, I've tried Beats several times and the sound quality / distortion is so bad, Bose might not have considered it to be worth it, because it was unimaginable these Headphones would become popular.

Could it be that Beat NC headphones sound quality/distortion is so bad is because they are not using Bose patents? And now that Apple is buying out Beat, maybe Bose is hoping that Apple will just settle by offering some "get lost" money rather, than to go through the expense of a trial.

post #73 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Could it be that Beat NC headphones sound quality/distortion is so bad is because they are not using Bose patents? And now that Apple is buying out Beat, maybe Bose is hoping that Apple will just settle by offering some "get lost" money rather, than to go through the expense of a trial.

Totally ridiculous and entirely possible. I find it disturbing this practice has become so standard that we assume it to be the case from the beginning…
post #74 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masteric View Post

Beats has been around for how long? They wait until Apple is in the process of buying Beats to sue?

 

They're suing before Beats falls under the Apple umbrella and probably protected from any litigation. Apple has many patents related to noise cancellation (44). By suing now, Beats won't be able to claim any Apple IP.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #75 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

I'm tired of every article about Beats/Apple devolving immediately into a bash-fest about the quality of the headphones.
Folks, these were designed for a specific customer... techno/hip-hop fans who want the bass to rattle their bodies, and who are listening to music that doesn't have much harmonic complexity.
In short, if you're an audiophile, THEY WEREN'T DESIGNED FOR YOU!
Get over it and buy another brand.
If/when these become the flagship headphones for Apple, I'm sure there will be a broadening of their sonic footprint. Ain't exactly rocket science for a company with Apple's resources.

But I still think the deal was about the music service. I just subscribed after the trial period, and I'm really impressed with the catalog and the algorithms.

We'll see.

Emphasising the bass goes way back to the eighties when cassette tape Walkman type players had bass boost, extra bass, mega super duper extra bass etc, whatever the marketers could think of.

Of these:-



The Beats win hands down and are not all bass.
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #76 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
 

 

While I won't pretend to know Bose's specific patented implementation, noise-cancellation is usually done by having a microphone pick up the ambient noise and then feeding that signal out of phase into the headphone.    The actual noise and the inverted noise cancel each other out.   The only thing special and unique is how you process the signal coming through the microphone to match the sound of the noise heard through the pads of the headphones.   

 

- snip  -=

 

If you take a stereo recording, take the stereo output and reverse the phase of one channel and then combine it into mono, everything that's mono on the stereo recording will disappear, usually low bass and most of the vocals except for the stereo echo return.     Same principle.  

 

So there's definitely prior art out there.

 

 

  Very true.  Phase reversal has been around since man has been able to make stereo recordings.  At it's most basic it's swapping a single wire.  There are a variety of approaches to noise canceling, simple phase reversal being the easiest and most commonly used.  Even in more complex approaches reversal of phase is often the final component, with the rest often used to enable what you desire to not cancel to be clearer and with less artifacts.   

 

  But patents are granted for how a system (especially a non-patentable one) is applied in a new manner, so even though Bose does have an R & D dept it's not unlikely most of their patents are of this nature and not that they've created a new technology.  I think it's pretty safe to assume the that none of the patents held by Beats or 80% of headphone manufacturers are of original technology.


Edited by jlandd - 7/27/14 at 7:26am
post #77 of 95
Bose is right, though. Their noise canceling technology is the best in the industry. I first saw it in their aviation headsets many years ago. I ended up choosing Lightspeed, though, for overall sound quality. And, well, Lightspeed was cheaper, primarily because I worked at a place that was a Lightspeed dealer.

Sorry, but if Beats is infringing, then Bose should move to protect their patents. Some people here seem to think that patents and copyrights are not worth having at all. If you believe that, then consider the lack of innovation in places where intellectual property rights are weak. The entire economy of China is built on imitation, for example, but they invent practically nothing.
post #78 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landcruiser View Post

Yet another reason not to buy Bose junk. Yes, I said junk. It's overpriced junk.

So are Beat's, what's your point. 

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post #79 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjcampbell View Post

Sorry, but if Beats is infringing, then Bose should move to protect their patents. Some people here seem to think that patents and copyrights are not worth having at all. If you believe that, then consider the lack of innovation in places where intellectual property rights are weak. The entire economy of China is built on imitation, for example, but they invent practically nothing.

Absolutely, it's only a problem here because the company in question happens to be owned by Apple.

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post #80 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

The Consumer Reports suit was just harassment to try and force more positive coverage. Unfortunately, it worked, as CR made special accommodations for Bose in their speaker testing, which not surprisingly boosted their ratings considerably.

It doesn't fool my ears.

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