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Amazon stock dips after anaemic third quarter, tepid reception for Fire Phone

post #1 of 122
Thread Starter 
On the same day that Amazon begins to ship its new, widely-panned Fire Phone to consumers, shares of the online retailing giant are trading down nearly 10 percent after the company posted a $126 million loss on nearly $20 billion in sales in its fiscal second quarter.




Amazon said that the narrow loss -- which came despite a $4 billion year-over-year jump in sales -- can be attributed largely to new business investments, though some of its existing cash cows also slowed. A decline in business at Amazon Web Services affected the bottom line in a "meaningful way," the company noted.

Though Amazon does not provide detailed expense breakdowns, much of the new investment is likely tied to the Fire Phone. The handset, unveiled in June, sports advanced image recognition and three-dimensional tracking capabilities.

Unfortunately, the new device was not as well-received as Amazon's other hardware projects. Many reviewers panned it as "full of gimmicks," saying it is covered in "whiz-bang frippery" and that some of its headline features are "sometimes outright frustrating."

The bleeding does not look set to stop any time soon, as Amazon predicted an even larger shortfall for the third quarter. Amazon CFO Tom Szkutak warned investors that its losses for that period could top $800 million.

At press time, shares of Amazon were down nearly 10 percent to under $333.
post #2 of 122

The only puzzle is why it's taken so long. Look out below.

post #3 of 122
Finally the Street figured out that Amazon has made less in 18 years of existence than what Apple, Google, and Samsung individually earn in disappointing quarters.
post #4 of 122
I still wouldn't buy their stock again. They are the epitome of a 'dead company walking'.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #5 of 122
I don't know why they don't just put their prices up a little bit. On $20bn in sales it wouldn't take much of a percentage increase to cover a few hundred million in losses.
post #6 of 122
I guess investors want to make money, who knew?
post #7 of 122
Amazon is experiencing the effect of investments not being profitable. although most of this has been hidden in their reports. I suspect Kindle, Fire TV, etc., are also contributing to the overall limited profitability, although not evident in their reports. Hardware sold at or below cost to achieve other sales e.g., books and movies, are all well and good, but without clear associations supporting these expectations, its all speculation. And with Amazon it is almost entirely speculation, in fact, it almost calls out for regulatory attention. So Amazon's stock seems to be built on "faith and analysts narratives" regarding their current accomplishments and future opportunities. When this faith gets challenged or suspect, it is not impossible to see a run on the stock with its astronomical PE ratios.

To a lesser expect [although not a lot lesser], similar "faith" in Google's many "innovations and acquisitions" which have NOT translated into bottom line profitability at least in a meaningful way. They still are overwhelmingly a one trick pony [search and advertising] sounds like Microsoft [just substitute Windows and Office]. Especially as they try to get into the "me-too" game in social, gaming, etc., that has been so problematic with Microsoft. But somehow is perceived as competitive and projects a bright future. Android is not a money maker, in fact, it is a cost center with dreams of big money in mobile advertising.
post #8 of 122
Quote:
 I don't know why they don't just put their prices up a little bit. On $20bn in sales it wouldn't take much of a percentage increase to cover a few hundred million in losses.

If they increased prices they would not have any advantage over normal retail. IMO they are killing local retail / jobs while trying to put a toll booth in for transactions. The concept is showing cracks that it cannot be sustained.

post #9 of 122

Awesome!

 

I was following this stock yesterday when it fell after hours and I was laughing my ass off. I had no personal stake in this stock, but it just felt really good to see it drop so sharply.

 

It's about damn time that they got punished for continuing to lose money and not living up to their ridiculous, extremely overvalued valuations.

 

If you ask me, it didn't drop enough. It's still overvalued. 

post #10 of 122

I love Amazon, I'm a Prime member and use their services often.  However, I would never buy their stock.  A PE ratio >500 is just nuts.  

 

Agree with the above post, they need to up prices and make some actual profit.  Good for amazon and good for some brick and mortar stores that may then be able to compete.  I think Amazon's time of expansion above profit needs to come to an end.

post #11 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

At press time, shares of Amazon were down nearly 10 percent to under $333.

 

TYPO: I think you mean $323.

post #12 of 122

A P/E of 500?

 

Nice, AMZN.

post #13 of 122
Wouldn't it be funny if Amazon raised ebook prices?
post #14 of 122
Imagine what would happen if AAPL posted a loss in a quarter. What are you spending over $20 billion on, Bezos?
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post #15 of 122
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Originally Posted by Carson O'Genic View Post
 

Agree with the above post, they need to up prices and make some actual profit. 

 

They did up their prices and the service has gotten worse.

 

Before, the minimum order amount to get free shipping was $25 and then they upped it to $35 a while ago, and the last time (a month ago) I ordered something from Amazon that was more than $35, it sat there for days before they even shipped it out. That is just unacceptable and unprofessional.

 

The next time I order something, it probably wont be from Amazon, because I am not willing to let my item sit around for days and days before they bother to ship it to me.

post #16 of 122
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Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I don't know why they don't just put their prices up a little bit. On $20bn in sales it wouldn't take much of a percentage increase to cover a few hundred million in losses.

It would push their decline. Putting prices up here and there means they won't always offer the best prices and that will lower their revenue. It's also easier to raise prices in hindsight. They have no idea what sales will be next quarter so they can't easily make that price judgement before the sales happen, they can only stick to the strategy of beating everyone else on price to guarantee the sales. Say they decided to raise prices 1%, that means a $499 computer becomes $503.99. They lose the psychological pricing of under $500. If they add it to shipping they lose the 'free shipping' selling point. They would be better cutting some expenses to cover their quarterly losses but the people running the company don't care about losses. They're just going about the business as they see fit.

The net sales were $19.3b, cost of sales $13.4b, fulfilment (delivery, payment fess) $2.4b, technology and content costs $2.2b and the rest just over $1b. They almost broke even but their $94m income tax bill made up most of the loss. I'm not sure why they needed that provision when they made a pre-tax loss but it might be for profit from other quarters. They have about $37b in assets, $10.6b stockholder equity so they'll survive for a while yet. Investors are right to downgrade them though, they are starting to realise they've bought into a company that has no desire to pay them any returns. They aren't worth anywhere near Walmart comparing revenue and income but the stock values them at over 60% of them.
post #17 of 122
Amazon is leading the online retail market. I'm surprised there's so much hate here for the company and/or stock. They took a loss because they offered cut throat pricing and invested heavily in their future. Not because they have bad products or a bad business model or bad management.

I see the 10% drop as a buying opportunity.
post #18 of 122
Oh yeah. The sell at a loss, make up for it in volume business philosophy.
post #19 of 122
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Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

At press time, shares of Amazon were down nearly 10 percent to under $333.

"That's amazing! How did they do that?"
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
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Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
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post #20 of 122
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Originally Posted by schlack View Post

Amazon is leading the online retail market. I'm surprised there's so much hate here for the company and/or stock. They took a loss because they offered cut throat pricing and invested heavily in their future. Not because they have bad products or a bad business model or bad management.

I see the 10% drop as a buying opportunity.

Amazon needs competition. They are abusing its monopoly powers.

I wouldn't touch Amazon stock.
post #21 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlack View Post

Amazon is leading the online retail market. I'm surprised there's so much hate here for the company and/or stock. They took a loss because they offered cut throat pricing and invested heavily in their future. Not because they have bad products or a bad business model or bad management.

I see the 10% drop as a buying opportunity.

 

Amazon has been a public company for 17 years.

There total net profit in 17 years is $2 Billion.

There estimated net loss for next quarter is $1 Billion.

Basically 1 quarter will wipe out 8.5 years of profits.

Let that digest.

 

Amazons total Cash, short term investments, Accounts Receivable is $18.4 Billion (basically the money used to pay bills)

Amazons total Accounts Payable and Current Liabilities is $18.4 Billion (basically the bills that are due soon)

So they barely have enough money to pay their current bills.  This does not take into account long term debt or leases.

They expect to lose $1B next quarter.  How are they going to pay the bills?

Very soon they will need to go in debt.

 

Apple's Market cap is 3.8x larger than Amazon ( $580B vs $150B)

Apple's Yearly Profit is 400x larger than Amazon ( $40B vs $100M)

Even if Amazon improves profitability by 40,000% they will still be less profitable than Apple based on Market Cap.

 

This is a flatout Ponzi scheme.

The stock price should be no higher than $150

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post #22 of 122

I really don't understand the gloating of Amazon taking a hit?  Is it because they're a "competitor" of Apple?  (I don't even see them as a competitor, personally).

 

I enjoy the hell out of my Amazon Prime membership.  I am not interested in owning any of their hardware, but Amazon is a great retailer & they'll be around a long time to come.  

post #23 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The net sales were $19.3b, cost of sales $13.4b, fulfilment (delivery, payment fess) $2.4b, technology and content costs $2.2b and the rest just over $1b. They almost broke even but their $94m income tax bill made up most of the loss. I'm not sure why they needed that provision when they made a pre-tax loss but it might be for profit from other quarters. They have about $37b in assets, $10.6b stockholder equity so they'll survive for a while yet. Investors are right to downgrade them though, they are starting to realise they've bought into a company that has no desire to pay them any returns. They aren't worth anywhere near Walmart comparing revenue and income but the stock values them at over 60% of them.

 

Its even worse.

 

Some states like Texas charge income tax based on Revenue's not Net Income.  So even though they make zero profit in Texas they still need to pay Taxes.

 

There Assets are a mess.

Don't forget that $19B of that $37B in Assets is Goodwill and Property Plant and Equipment.

Their current assets is only $18B (stuff you can turn into cash in less than a year)

Their current liabilities is $18B (stuff that you need to pay in less than a year)

 

So basically besides Goodwill and Property/Plant/Equipment they have ZERO EQUITY.  ZERO.

Throw in the fact they expect a $1B loss next quarter and borrowing money is almost guaranteed.

 

Amazon does $80B in revenue.

Walmart does $460B.  Walmart is still so much bigger and stronger.

 

Don't let the 'healthy' gross margin fool you.  The CFO is trying to hide the fact that their cloud services and 3rd party commision sales are 100% gross profit.  They show $0 cost of good sold for both of those items.  That is why their gross profit is high.  They show those expenses in 'other operating expense' which is totally misleading.

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post #24 of 122

To think they do $20 BILLION in sales, and still not make any money.  That just boggles the mind.

They should have went the way of Pets.com and Webvan ages ago.  This is a sham of a company.  Amazing they can still stay in business.

post #25 of 122
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Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 

I really don't understand the gloating of Amazon taking a hit?  Is it because they're a "competitor" of Apple?  (I don't even see them as a competitor, personally).

 

I enjoy the hell out of my Amazon Prime membership.  I am not interested in owning any of their hardware, but Amazon is a great retailer & they'll be around a long time to come.  

 

Do you realize how many legitimate businesses and jobs were lost because they priced competition out?  It okay if they won because of fair practices.  But they are selling merchandise BELOW COST.

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post #26 of 122
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Originally Posted by sflocal View Post
 

To think they do $20 BILLION in sales, and still not make any money.  That just boggles the mind.

They should have went the way of Pets.com and Webvan ages ago.  This is a sham of a company.  Amazing they can still stay in business.

 

Reason is because Wall Street and Bezo's is making a killing on their stock options.

 

Amazon is 90% owned by insiders and institutions.

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post #27 of 122
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Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

Do you realize how many legitimate businesses and jobs were lost because they priced competition out?  It okay if they won because of fair practices.  But they are selling merchandise BELOW COST.

 

Doesn't Walmart do the same thing?  It's just capitalism.

post #28 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 

I really don't understand the gloating of Amazon taking a hit?  Is it because they're a "competitor" of Apple?  (I don't even see them as a competitor, personally).

 

I enjoy the hell out of my Amazon Prime membership.  I am not interested in owning any of their hardware, but Amazon is a great retailer & they'll be around a long time to come.  

 

It would be Amazon's dream to sell Tablets/Smartphones below cost and wipe out Apple.  Amazon would lose BILLIONS in the process but would wipe out the competition.

 

Is that something you really want to see?

 

That's exactly what Amazon did to hundreds of other companies.

 

Fortuately Apple is big enough and has enough cash to keep Amazon at bay.  But so many other high quality companies and jobs were wiped out because of this unfair practices by Amazon

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post #29 of 122
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Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 

 

Doesn't Walmart do the same thing?  It's just capitalism.

 

Walmart makes $17 Billion a year.

 

They do not wipe out competition by selling below cost.

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post #30 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

It would be Amazon's dream to sell Tablets/Smartphones below cost and wipe out Apple.  Amazon would lose BILLIONS in the process but would wipe out the competition.

 

Is that something you really want to see?

 

That's exactly what Amazon did to hundreds of other companies.

 

Fortuately Apple is big enough and has enough cash to keep Amazon at bay.  But so many other high quality companies and jobs were wiped out because of this unfair practices by Amazon

 

No, I don't.  But Amazon's hardware products aren't even in the same league as Apple, so there are no worries there.  I just don't see this as Apple vs Amazon, sorry.  I won't be buying their stock but they're still a great company in my opinion.

post #31 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

Doesn't Walmart do the same thing?  It's just capitalism.
They don't make competing products and denigrate the products of their competitors.

They should stick to services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

No, I don't.  But Amazon's hardware products aren't even in the same league as Apple, so there are no worries there.  I just don't see this as Apple vs Amazon, sorry.  I won't be buying their stock but they're still a great company in my opinion.

Sans the hardware, yes. However, they're trying to buy loyalty by offering these products below cost while their investors support the initiative. Which said investors obviously aren't into supporting as the drop off today shows.
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post #32 of 122
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Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

No, I don't.  But Amazon's hardware products aren't even in the same league as Apple, so there are no worries there.  I just don't see this as Apple vs Amazon, sorry.  I won't be buying their stock but they're still a great company in my opinion.

Amazon did serious damage to Apple and the entire industry by pricing their tablets at near cost, as did Google. They gave new ammunition to haters and anti-aesthetes who say that Apple is overpriced and fueled by greed. It didn't help that their tablets seem to have better displays than Apple's.
post #33 of 122
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Originally Posted by alcstarheel View Post

They don't make competing products and denigrate the products of their competitors.

Well they do sell the generic branded stuff.
post #34 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 

I really don't understand the gloating of Amazon taking a hit?  Is it because they're a "competitor" of Apple?  (I don't even see them as a competitor, personally).

 

I enjoy the hell out of my Amazon Prime membership.  I am not interested in owning any of their hardware, but Amazon is a great retailer & they'll be around a long time to come.  


I think the reason people chide Amazon is because they seem to get preferential treatment from the investment community, especially compared to Apple.  So when Amazon gets hit by investors, Apple people feel like there is some justice happening.  Frankly, I feel the same way.  Apple gets punished when they make record profits because why?  Amazon, like Microsoft and even Google, seem to have a Wall Street following that likes when they lose money and show no real way forward for making money.

post #35 of 122

Here is the reply to a complaint made to the UK's Competition and Markets Authority about Amazon's position in the market place:

 

We understand from your email that you believe Amazon’s alleged conduct towards book publishers will reduce competition to the disadvantage of consumers, businesses and the economy. We are grateful to you for bringing this matter to our attention.

We use the intelligence we gather, alongside our Prioritisation Principles (www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-prioritisation-principles), to develop our pipeline of new projects and programmes of work and make the best use of CMA resources in terms of real outcomes for UK consumers. We have noted your complaint and brought it to the attention of our pipeline/intelligence teams; we may get back to you in the future if we pursue the issue. Thank you for highlighting this issue to us. 

 

post #36 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlack View Post

Amazon is leading the online retail market. I'm surprised there's so much hate here for the company and/or stock. They took a loss because they offered cut throat pricing and invested heavily in their future. Not because they have bad products or a bad business model or bad management.

I see the 10% drop as a buying opportunity.

 

Oh dear. Yes, Amazon is leading online retail. As it has done for some time. But there's no explanation for how investors are to see any benefit. There is no dividend and no-one has ever promised one. 

 

Even after this drop, the price-to-earnings ratio is more than FIVE HUNDRED !  That means that, assuming that dividends will eventually be distributed, it will take a long, long time to see much benefit. And if Amazon seriously jacks their prices - as they might do - then their market share will drop and the share price will go along with it.

 

Anyone who sees a 10% drop in a 500+ P/E stock as a buying opportunity is just delusional.

post #37 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 

 

Doesn't Walmart do the same thing?  It's just capitalism.

 

Let me illustrate it this way.

 

Suppose a business man comes to your town and opens 50 restaurant.  He opens a restaurant right next to every single restaurant in the town.  He puts a burger place right next to the Mom and Pop burger place.  He puts an italian place right next to the italian place that was there for 50 years.  But here is the kicker.  The business man decides to charge $1 per meal.  How long do you think the local restaurant will last? Now imagine if this Business man does this for 17 years.  

 

I don't care how loyal the people in the town are those competing restaurants will go out of business.  Then after 17 years the Business man decides to close all 50 restaurants and leaves.  The towns economy tanks and hundreds lose their jobs.  Later we find out that the Business man left with $20 Billion in his wallet.  Come to find out that the local government was subsidizing his restaurant the whole time using taxes you were paying each year.

 

That is what Amazon is doing.

 

The Business man is Bezo's.

The local government is Wall Street.

The towns people are you and me.  

 

Even if Amazon loses 80% of its value Bezo's is still going to make tens of BILLIONS of dollars.

So who's paying for this?  Like in that town its YOU and ME.

 

Some of it are individual investors who buy Amazon shares.  But most of it is the regular working class.  Do you own Mutual Funds?  Do you have a 401k?  Then chances are you own Amazon.  Amazon is part of any S&P500 Mutual Fund, Nasdaq Mutual Fund, any Tech mutual fund, and probably any growth mutual fund.  So each of us are funding Amazon or paying them 'taxes'.  We will be the ones holding the bag when this thing goes crashing down.  

 

Wall Street will make Billions because they got in on the ground floor with the IPO.  And you can be sure they will unwind their investment and cash in huge.  

 

So enjoy your $1 meals for now.  Just remember that we are all paying the 'taxes' to fund the largest PONZI scheme in the history of the world.

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post #38 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
They do not wipe out competition by selling below cost.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know the answer to that. But WalMart does work hard to have a supplier become dependent upon it, and then squeeze that supplier to the wall and maybe out of business.

 

That's just their way of getting "Low prices, Every day". Some people benefit, many do not.

 

Personally, I would be OK with paying a little more for things that were made in the U.S. because that provides jobs to people in our communities. Which means that they're not on Food Stamps etc. They have a better life, and what's more - they have their dignity. That counts for a lot with me. It doesn't count for WalMart, despite all the flags they might plaster around their stores.

post #39 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

Doesn't Walmart do the same thing?  It's just capitalism.

Yes, I expect Walmart do. That is exactly the problem with capitalism. We have globalised companies intertwined with governments in an unhealthy and tangled financial relationship. The evidence is there for all to see, especially in the USA, but here in the UK too, namely that all the people trying to earn a living by providing brick and mortar stores which give a place identity, character, history and a sense of community are being wiped out by rootless global corporations like Amazon and Walmart who sell the same products for loads less money that no small firm can compete with.

Why do you think that in my village, the baker, corner shop, garage and post office have all closed leaving us with just a pub? Why does the lovely town where I went to school now look hideous, desperate and almost identical to so many other towns - full of betting shops, pound shops, mini supermarkets and nail bars?

When your main motivation for choosing a supplier is low cost, this is the result. I've bought a few things off Amazon that are next to impossible to buy where I live such as small lithium batteries and other oddities but I try and buy everything locally whenever I can. Amazon and the supermarkets can all fold up and vanish tomorrow and it won't be a day too soon in my book.
post #40 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlack View Post

Amazon is leading the online retail market. I'm surprised there's so much hate here for the company and/or stock. They took a loss because they offered cut throat pricing and invested heavily in their future. Not because they have bad products or a bad business model or bad management.

I see the 10% drop as a buying opportunity.

Your perspective on this is legitimate, Schlack. But for many others, there are plenty of reasons to resent Amazon. Chief among them is their relentless drive to stamp out local economies. Many think Walmart is bad in that regard. Amazon is Walmart on steroids. At least Walmart has actual brick and mortar stores all over the place, which are run by real people getting real pay checks. I love the Internet and technology, but I have no idea how cities and towns across the country are going to prosper if Amazon keeps growing in power and dominance, siphoning off dollars out of local economies and channeling all that money to a tiny fraction of workers and investors who most certainly will not be pumping that money back into 98% of those economies. Young people don't think about this much. But there eyes begin to open more as they age and raise families and try to start their own businesses in their own towns. At some point, communities have to band together and make a decision about the kind of life they want. And for the vast majority of those communities Amazon is not the bad guy, they are the worst guy.

 

The other beef many of us would have against Amazon is simply the fact that they've decided to take on Apple and compete against them. We're Apple fans here and we don't like companies that want to horn in on their markets.

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