or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › Apple's future iPhones could hide FaceTime camera & flash inside earpiece grille
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple's future iPhones could hide FaceTime camera & flash inside earpiece grille - Page 2

post #41 of 67
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
You know how you pretend to know what a straw man argument is? There, you just used one.


Or if you’d read posts before replying...

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #42 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The biggest problem with the grill is that the diameter of the lens is larger than the height of it. I tried to mock that up when making an iPhone 6 mockup before but having the grill as tall as the current lens doesn't look good. Nor does it look good with a large hole in the middle with the grill extending out from it. One design I felt worked ok was the following:



That's an iPhone 6 mockup with a 4.4" edge to edge display and the bezels reduced. It was to avoid having to deal with a hand brick like the Galaxy phones. It looks like we'll have to put up with the hand brick for now. The idea with the holes was that one would be the proximity sensor and the others would be for the speakers to either side of the lens. I didn't think about there being a flash but that would work too.

The single line grill design is simpler but I reckon the only way that'll work is if they figure out how to turn the display into a camera by putting a photodetector at every pixel along with an RGB component. Having a sapphire front panel could help but grease and fingerprints are the bigger problem. They's need a surface coating that things don't stick to like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ayRImPvcQU

or just a way to compensate for the grease on the display.

On the subject of patents, they are often used for protection from other people suing them. Apple has been sued over the most frivolous of patents so it makes sense for them to patent as much as possible.

I think like me. very outside the box.

I know someone who works for Apple and this camera grill thing won't be a feature on iPhone 6. The person I know worked on that specific area back in March, but then again, Apple likes to weigh their options so who knows?
post #43 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 


Or if you’d read posts before replying...

 Apologies for giving you the benefit of the doubt that you'd have a decent point, rather than just a pedantic language gripe.

 

Though, since you brought up the subject, how many appreciably different implementations of "put camera behind speaker grill" do you think there are?

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #44 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Did you save that mockup? Post it; let’s see how it looks.

I had deleted it but it was pretty much these variations:



The single line is cleanest because there are fewer shapes but I think it's far too big. It also pretty much requires putting the mesh in front otherwise you'd see the objects inside the shape anyway.

The best way is to try and get the camera behind the display somehow because for one thing it means you finally get eye contact during video chats.

You can't really put a focusing lens + sensor behind the display because the LCD blocks incoming light and the battery is in the way so I think it has to be a different kind of camera. Sensors are made up of photodetectors but they need to distinguish between red, green and blue incoming light so they have a filter in front. They already use RGB components to make the display show color though so if those same components could simply have photodetectors in them, one per RGB component per pixel, you'd have a camera the same resolution as the display, which isn't great but good enough for a front-facing camera. The image it generates might not be very high quality and it has to not affect nor be affected by the display itself.
post #45 of 67

An example of Apple trying to patent every single ideas with its big pocket while stealing or adopting great ideas & features created by others.  And most of you here pretending 'what a great idea, never thought of that!' or something like it.  Apple, Just make great products as you do and cut this nonsense plz. 

post #46 of 67
Another route they could go is to have the separate parts surround the camera lens like this:



I purposely put a lighter circle round the lens to show the separation but they could be blended together. So there are 4 quadrants and you'd have speakers to the left and right, proximity sensor up top and flash down below. They could even make a two tone flash but the orange might be a bit distracting. The flash could have a digital filter to hide it when not in use though or the orange could just be a digital filter that only appears when needed like electrochromic glass.

They could actually put the grill all the way round there without impacting the camera and that would hide the other components but still leave them fully functional.
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I'm sure it is, but Apples current implementation is just an on/off LED flash for alerts. If you can modify the brightness then it's not particularly well signposted and I'm not aware of the method.

Here's the API:
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/AVFoundation/Reference/AVCaptureDevice_Class/Reference/Reference.html#//apple_ref/occ/instm/AVCaptureDevice/setTorchModeOnWithLevel:error:

The torchLevel arg is a float from 0.0 to 1.0, controlling brightness.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #48 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

An example of Apple trying to patent every single ideas with its big pocket while stealing or adopting great ideas & features created by others.  And most of you here pretending 'what a great idea, never thought of that!' or something like it.  Apple, Just make great products as you do and cut this nonsense plz. 

1. Making great products
2. Applying for patents

Two of these activities are not mutually exclusive.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #49 of 67
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
 Apologies for giving you the benefit of the doubt that you'd have a decent point, rather than just a pedantic language gripe.

 

Again, thanks for telling everyone that you believe it is okay to patent an idea and not simply an implementation thereof. Nearly everyone–if not everyone–disagrees with you, but okay.

 
Though, since you brought up the subject, how many appreciably different implementations of "put camera behind speaker grill" do you think there are?

 

A few dozen, if not a hundred or so.

 

Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

 

That’s great! I like it. The cleanliness of the top bezel makes up for the increase in size.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #50 of 67
Quote:

Great, if I'm developing an app.  But if I want to use the out of the box control that Apple provides to turn on the LED flash for alerts for Apple apps like Messages and Mail, can I control the brightness there?  I don't believe I can.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Again, thanks for telling everyone that you believe it is okay to patent an idea and not simply an implementation thereof. Nearly everyone–if not everyone–disagrees with you, but okay.

And again, thanks for putting words into my mouth that I never even slightly implied.  If my "reading" problem is that I can't read the words that you don't write it seems that your reading problem is that you imagine I've written words that I haven't.

 

Oh wait, no, both of those are your problem.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

A few dozen, if not a hundred or so.

Really?  Care to detail even a half dozen of them?

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #52 of 67
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Really?  Care to detail even a half dozen of them?

 

Sure thing. But first, since you don’t care at all, why not explain why you’re pretending that every single electrical, physical, and software implementation of such a system is only one way to do it and why you’re pretending that since the ending is the same, the means by which it was accomplished MUST have been the same.

 

You know, so that the people who are actually reading this can know why you believe ideas can be patented and that all implementations of an idea are identical.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #53 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post
 

What a god-awful, friggin freaky idea for a cell phone.  As it is, I can hardly even see the earpiece grille because of accumulated dust and fuzz. That's just normal use of a phone... doesn't affect sound transmission appreciably.  But you sure aren't going to get good optics thru it.  Compare that to a transparent sapphire covering over the main camera which can be readily cleaned, or the oleophobic gorilla glass over the face-time camera which we all know can be cleaned by a wipe across our sleeve.  That ain't gonna cut it with the earpiece grille.  Nope, this would be a big step backwards.  Thankfully, the phone is merely one "embodiment".  Hopefully there are others for which this is more practical.  :)


I was hoping somebody else would catch that. 

 

And I don't care if you filter out the lines that the grill would cause, even if it's perfectly clean you're still losing light, and you're still getting a degraded image compared to what you'd get if you don't try to photograph through a metal grill.

 

It's an absolutely horrific idea.

post #54 of 67

 

/s

Shut up and go away, you useless, pathetic FUDmonger - Tallest Skil
Reply
Shut up and go away, you useless, pathetic FUDmonger - Tallest Skil
Reply
post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post
 

An example of Apple trying to patent every single ideas with its big pocket while stealing or adopting great ideas & features created by others.  And most of you here pretending 'what a great idea, never thought of that!' or something like it.  Apple, Just make great products as you do and cut this nonsense plz. 

 

The thing is though, I don't think the problem is specifically with Apple. As far as I know, everyone takes advantage of what is currently a broken system; and that's the problem. If Apple don't behave this way, others will, and they will constantly be at the mercy of lawsuits, to the point where innovation will be very difficult.

 

So - and I think Tim Cook has said this before - the actual patent system itself needs to be changed so that there is no need to do this constant patent-lodging exercise.

 

Also regarding the idea of this being a terrible concept (in terms of having the camera behind a grille) - I think we should remember that there could be many, many different ways to implement this. The "grille" might simply be coloured glass, for all we know. The final product often differs from the patent in respects like this.

post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Sure thing. But first, since you don’t care at all, why not explain why you’re pretending that every single electrical, physical, and software implementation of such a system is only one way to do it and why you’re pretending that since the ending is the same, the means by which it was accomplished MUST have been the same.

 

You know, so that the people who are actually reading this can know why you believe ideas can be patented and that all implementations of an idea are identical.

Repeating a lie three times over doesn't make it come true.  Stop it.  I never said, implied, or i any way suggested that, nor am I pretending anything.  That you're saying I doing either is a perfect example of a straw man, which apparently you hate.  Until you quit with the lying and posturing I'm not going to do a goddamn thing to service your diversions and distractions.

 

Answer my question or shut up.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #57 of 67
How do they make it so that the grille doesn't get it the way? On current phones if you even get a small scratch on the glass infront of the camera the camera only focuses on the scratch.
post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

How do they make it so that the grille doesn't get it the way? On current phones if you even get a small scratch on the glass infront of the camera the camera only focuses on the scratch.

1) That is the trick, isn't it? Either they can find some clever way to compensate (which I think is unlikely unless they use two cameras) or they just don't have the grill over the camera.

2) Apple has been using sapphire for the camera, but I'm sure how prevalent that is in phones at this time.
Edited by SolipsismX - 8/8/14 at 7:25am

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by cali View Post

I think like me.

I should hope that you think like you. 1wink.gif
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #60 of 67
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
I never said, implied, or i any way suggested that

 

Said it right here.

 
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
…I thought you'd have something more than that semantic nonsense.
 

You have explicitly said that you are of the belief that “patenting an idea” and “patenting an implementation of an idea” are the same thing.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #61 of 67

"Explicitly"?  Add another word to the list of words that you don't understand.

 

No.  I meant, and I said, that you were making a semantic point that had no real relevance to the argument being made, not that there wasn't any truth whatsoever in what you were saying.  If you think otherwise you are imagining I've written something I haven't.  Learn to read real words, not imaginary ones.

 

If someone interjects the special theory of relativity into a discussion about whether cats or dogs are cuter I'd also say they were making a nonsense argument.  Not because the special theory of relativity is untrue, but because it's a stupid, irrelevant point to make given the context.  That's an absurd example of course, but I genuinely don't think the distinction between implementation and idea was the spirit of the point that you quoted (i.e. you were just being a smart ass), nor do I think it is particularly relevant to this specific example anyway because, as I have challenged you to clarify, I don't think there is much scope for implementations of "speaker behind grill" that are differentiated enough to deserve a patent beyond the obvious ones implied by the idea of such a thing (i.e. I think you're full of crap when you claim there are between dozens and a hundred).

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #62 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple even notes that the addition of a camera flash to the front of the iPhone could be beneficial for more than photos. In the filing, the company says that adding a small light to the speaker slot could serve as a "status indicator," notifying users when a message has been received.

 

:wow:

 

This would be like the flashing light that used to exist on Blackberries, though I think it was red. That would be cool if Apple could take the idea and turn it into the first proper implementation.

"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
post #63 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

I always thought the proxy sensor, at the very least, should be in the same slot as the speaker. Probably the camera too. It doesn't matter on the black models, but I'm surprised Ives had tolerated those scattered black holes on the white models. Just make the slot bigger and line those components all up in a row! There must have been some engineering barrier I can't imagine.

Ives? Burle Ives? That's the only Ives I know.

 

Also Charles Ives, the composer. 

"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
post #64 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 

I appreciate the minimalistic nature of the patent.  It's one reason I only buy the iPhones with the black face, I don't like seeing the proximity sensor & camera on those with the white face.

 

Good reason.

 

I don't know how anyone can live with themselves who buy a white iPhone. The monstrosity of having to see that white facade sullied by two slight dots which you don't notice when you're actually using the phone is too much to bear; in fact, it makes me come out in a rash just to think of it.

"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
post #65 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 

 

Good reason.

 

I don't know how anyone can live with themselves who buy a white iPhone. The monstrosity of having to see that white facade sullied by two slight dots which you don't notice when you're actually using the phone is too much to bear; in fact, it makes me come out in a rash just to think of it.

 

Hey, here's a thought.  You buy what you like and I'll buy what I like.  That ok?  I'm pretty sure the point of my post was my own reasoning, no reason for snarky comments.

post #66 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Did you save that mockup? Post it; let’s see how it looks.

I had deleted it but it was pretty much these variations:



The single line is cleanest because there are fewer shapes but I think it's far too big. It also pretty much requires putting the mesh in front otherwise you'd see the objects inside the shape anyway.

The best way is to try and get the camera behind the display somehow because for one thing it means you finally get eye contact during video chats.

You can't really put a focusing lens + sensor behind the display because the LCD blocks incoming light and the battery is in the way so I think it has to be a different kind of camera. Sensors are made up of photodetectors but they need to distinguish between red, green and blue incoming light so they have a filter in front. They already use RGB components to make the display show color though so if those same components could simply have photodetectors in them, one per RGB component per pixel, you'd have a camera the same resolution as the display, which isn't great but good enough for a front-facing camera. The image it generates might not be very high quality and it has to not affect nor be affected by the display itself.

 

 

I gave Apple feedback about the eye contact/lens behind display thing, though I'm sure they've been thinking about it already. It's a good point.

"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
post #67 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 

 

Good reason.

 

I don't know how anyone can live with themselves who buy a white iPhone. The monstrosity of having to see that white facade sullied by two slight dots which you don't notice when you're actually using the phone is too much to bear; in fact, it makes me come out in a rash just to think of it.

 

Hey, here's a thought.  You buy what you like and I'll buy what I like.  That ok?  I'm pretty sure the point of my post was my own reasoning, no reason for snarky comments.

 

So you want to be allowed to reason, but you don't want others to reason different.

 

Got ya.

"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
"If the young are not initiated into the village, they will burn it down just to feel its warmth."
- African proverb
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Future Apple Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › Apple's future iPhones could hide FaceTime camera & flash inside earpiece grille