boycot .mac - Page 2

JPF right on!

I hate coming into threads and seeing a bunch of whiners. I don't visit as many threads these days as I used to..

Just over a quarter a day for .mac services.. which of course will get better and better moving forward.. How did any of you whiners afford your Mac in the first place?!

This iCal thing sounds like the Exchange server here at work, but over the Web.. cool.

I can't understand all this whining. If want multiple free email accounts, go sign up for a few dozen hotmail account. If you believe that MS will continue to offer more than just a bare minimum of servics available for free, you are delusional. Already MS chares for POP and most other services, all that is free right now is very, very basic email, and i am willing to bet that that will change soon.."get more than 10 emails a day?...well you can continue to use your hotmail account to receive unlimited emails as before for only $19.99, or your account will only accept 10 emails at a time" if you don't believe that, everyone argued hotmail would never charge for POP access either. I just read today that MS will charge for the next version of MSN Browse if you don't signup for an MSN account.

I think the future of most iApps is intergration with .mac. Just as iCal will sync with .mac to allow remote access to your calendars, I think most Apple apps will integrate in this manner. Once you combine Rendezvous, iSync and .mac you get a lot of possibilities.

Ideas:
-Address book available via .mac and synced via iSync through your idisk.
-iTunes uses your local harddrive and via rendezvous, shares it with your .mac acount, making your entire mp3 collection available to you remotely.
-iPhoto will offer automatic uploads of selected photos to your iDisk.
-iPod could store your .mac account info and when you plug into a new Mac, it connects to and syncs with your .mac account automatically to update addresses, playlists...whatever
-iMovie could also offer a builtin upload of clips to an iDisk
-any new 3rd party apps that take advantage of Apple's Open Addressbook API's and Rendezvous and .Mac, could allow remote importing. This opens up other PDA etc to remote updating via .mac.


There are lots of possibilities for .mac to turn into a real, valuable service, worth the $100. Already, you get increased storage, increased mail allotments and iCal integration. More will come, I can guarantee that much, what it is we will have to wait and see.

I am however disappointed in the lack hardware announcements overall. I think August for mhz increase in PMacs and iMacs, but nothing overly dramatic, relative to the size of increase happening everywhere else.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Tulkas ]</p>

mooseman:

[quote]All you whiners complain about .mac and how the bundling used to make macs worth more, while completely overlooking iChat, Sherlock 3, iCal, and iSync, four completely top notch new apps Apple is giving you for free.<hr></blockquote>

Not free, 10.2 costs $129, so that knocks out Sherlock 3, iSync and iChat. iCal is a free download, yes, but doesn't seem very useful.

[quote]And with .mac, it gives you capabilities you can't even get on another platform.<hr></blockquote>

Like?

Eugene:

[quote]And what is the exact definition of .NET, Groverat?<hr></blockquote>

If you're really interested... <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/net/defined/whatis.asp" target="_blank">clicky</a>

[quote]Most of the benefits we have seen so far from .NET have been a handful of subscription services.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, but not necessarily controlled by Microsoft. You can develop for .NET, write your own .NET apps (correct me if I'm wrong).

.Mac is just Apple's thing that it decides everything about. Apple writes the apps and makes them available with no opportunity for anyone else to join in. The services don't even have to be subscription.

And I know very little about .NET, I'm sure someone with a greater understanding could show even more differences.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>mooseman:

Yes, but not necessarily controlled by Microsoft. You can develop for .NET, write your own .NET apps (correct me if I'm wrong).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, this is correct. .NET is a development platform. We're moving some of our apps over to .NET and have to learn some new things like C#.

If we wanted to, we could make some of our apps "web services" through .NET and charge other people to use them (consumers, companies, other developers, whoever)

Remember that all of Apple's web service are powered by WebObjects, which is a Java application builder now. Other services like Sherlock 3's stuff are just html content from web sites and some good parsing.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>mooseman:
Not free, 10.2 costs $129, so that knocks out Sherlock 3, iSync and iChat. iCal is a free download, yes, but doesn't seem very useful.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
iCal seems very much like Outlook...prolly one of the most used Windows applications in business today. How is a personal scheduling system, remotely accessible, shareable, and able to integrate with other, not useful?
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Yes, but not necessarily controlled by Microsoft. You can develop for .NET, write your own .NET apps (correct me if I'm wrong).

.Mac is just Apple's thing that it decides everything about. Apple writes the apps and makes them available with no opportunity for anyone else to join in. The services don't even have to be subscription.

And I know very little about .NET, I'm sure someone with a greater understanding could show even more differences.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, you can write your own, but no one really has, except MS. Even MS doesn't really seem to know what .Net will be.

BuonRotto:

[quote]Remember that all of Apple's web service are powered by WebObjects, which is a Java application builder now. Other services like Sherlock 3's stuff are just html content from web sites and some good parsing.<hr></blockquote>

Yep yep.

But .Mac != WebObjects

I suppose a WebObjects/.NET comparison could be made more compelling than a .mac/.NET comparison.


Tulkas:

[quote]How is a personal scheduling system, remotely accessible, shareable, and able to integrate with other, not useful?<hr></blockquote>

Ask the dying handheld organizer market.

.NET is a bunch of things. It's everything from an operating system series to a development platform to a subscription services / web application model. Microsoft is cunningly attaching every product that comes out of its ass with a ".NET" moniker, even though it may or may not represent the vision behind it.

Microsoft ultimately owns .NET and will decide everything associated with it. MS owns your .NET Passport information--no one else. This isn't an open standard, this is MICROSOFT's own way of keeping tabs on you via subscription services. Additionally, developers can write code for a new API with Visual Studio .NET, which contains support for C#, which is basically a Java rip-off, relying heavily on XML. These applications that independent developers can create don't have to have ANY association with .NET at all. And what's with Windows Server .NET 2002 and Windows Blackcomb .NET? That's simply a case of the OS having plugs for Microsoft's own proprietary identification model and their weird-ass services.

Like Jobs said, iTools was delivering this in January of 2000, LONG before Microsoft ever rolled out its .NET plans. The difference between .Mac and .NET is that Apple actually knows what .Mac means. Yes, MS's services are one component of the .NET big picture, but it spreads into other areas so thinly, that they are named similarly just to give the name maximum exposure. Yes, it's retarded--but so is everything Microsoft does.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>BuonRotto:



Ask the dying handheld organizer market.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Slowing, but not dying. But, that is an totally irrelavant comparison.

A full featured scheduling system, able to be shared across an office network through (Rendezvous or directly), or with PDA's, viewable via a web browser etc, seems like it would be pretty useful to many people.

If a scheduler, that could be applied and used by pretty much anyone, no matter what they use their Mac for is not useful....what would you consider a useful app?

Before anyone runs off and sends feedback about .Mac, <a href="http://mac.com/1/mac_faq.html" target="_blank">read the FAQ</a>.

It has a number of useful clarifications. For example, if you have a .Mac account, you can purchase up to 10 additional email addresses for $10/year apiece. 1GB of iDisk storage is now an additional $350.

I don't know if I'm "boycotting" it, but I'll definitely not pay for it.

Don't most people either have their ISP's e-mail or a University or company e-mail? I know I have both, so I never used .mac email.

I wonder how many other people won't need it and won't pay for it, either. No boycott is necessary if people just don't want to pay for it.

But I'm sure it'll be a great money-maker. I just hope they don't start making it necessary to subscribe in order to obtain certain functionality on your machine. Like this iCal - didn't he say something about it using .Mac? Fine, as long as it's not crippled so that you can't use regular TCP/IP to sync or share.

[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>

Right, and that's reasonable, but they should still have a free option with less space.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i SECOND, THIRD, and FOURTH that nomination!



i need a cheap *free* site now to store some low-res images that i use in signatures for various bulletin boards. they prob take up all of 2-3 mb of space. can anyone recommend one that will work with on a mac?

i was going to phase out my AOL email too, since they upped the BYOP price, but now i guess i will stick with them. at least i know where i stand with them.

You can use .Mac to host published calendars if you want - I'm sure Apple will make it easy - but you don't have to use their service. Any server will do. Calendars can also be emailed and IM'd, etc.

I have a 6mb email account with yahoo, no spam, no popup ads... free.

From Apple:
[quote]
Bought individually, comparable products would cost you an estimated $250:

Anti-virus: $50
Backup: $40
100MB of online storage: $60
15MB of email storage, forwarding and POP/IMAP access: $40+
Home page creation and hosting: $60
<hr></blockquote>

Sure the backup might cost this, backing up over iDisk sounds like a nightmare to me.

I'm sorry, but with pretty many web hopsting plans, you could easily have 100+ MB of storage, pop e-mail and hosting for FAR less than the $160 Apple says this value is worth. Sure it's not the SAME thing, but I surely hope Apple doesn't believe the BS it's pushing.

I'll stick my neck out and bet .Mac services will expand to include a no-frills subscription with just e-mail and a 20 MB iDisk for $30 a year or something like that (no upgrades other than the premium subscription.) I also think the current $100 subscription rate will drop to $60-70 per year.

[quote]Originally posted by mooseman:
<strong>...reminds me of when I used to do a beer promotion for my restaurant. Instead of paying the band, we would sell 32oz pitchers of beer for 1¢ between 9-10 (around the time the band got ready to start) if you had a door stamp showing you had paid the cover to get it. So, we gave away what amounted to 2 kegs of beer ($130) and the bands made $500-600. And the brtenders made killer cash. Win-win-win.

...except, we began cultivating a crowd that expected free shit all the time. Soon, the began taking it for granted, quit tipping well, started bitching about having to wait in line, started bitching about the pitcher size, etc.

It seems Apple has dug itself the same hole here. All you whiners complain about .mac and how the bundling used to make macs worth more, while completely overlooking iChat, Sherlock 3, iCal, and iSync, four completely top notch new apps Apple is giving you for free. And with .mac, it gives you capabilities you can't even get on another platform.

Oh, and lets not forget iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, QuickTime StreamingServer, and QuickTime Broadcaster, all also available for free. I dunno about you, but I feel its a damn fine deal I already get and I will happily pay $99 a year ($49 this year) to have my Palm, iPod, and Macs at work and home all synced.

Plus, given the fact that I curently don't have anti-virus software or backup software, I think its a steal.

Yet, you bitch cuz you don't get free e-mail. Hmmm. Some people can't see the forest for all the trees.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ditto - I couldn't have said it better myself, hence I'm quoting the entire message.

[quote]Originally posted by nathan22t:

<strong>I have a 6mb email account with yahoo, no spam, no popup ads... free.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Except that it is web-based only. No POP access via your email client. Even with their pay service I believe you must use their own SMTP server for sending mail and many (most?) ISPs will not allow this.

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>I'll stick my neck out and bet .Mac services will expand to include a no-frills subscription with just e-mail and a 20 MB iDisk for $30 a year or something like that (no upgrades other than the premium subscription.) I also think the current $100 subscription rate will drop to $60-70 per year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think this will happen in September. The Apple page reads "A full .Mac membership gives you ....." This implies there will be partial or limited memberships. They are prolly not promoting that part yet, as they need people to switch over to the full plan..same reason for the $50 discount.

Seems like a lot of penny pinching and whining over the cost of a 20z Coke or a Latte a week for the upgrade/new user packages.

Nope, Amorph, that's simply for upgrading your $100/yr subscription.

Note the top of that particular answer:
But once you become a full .Mac member, you can upgrade both your Mac.com Email and your iDisk storage. You can also purchase up to ten additional email accounts.

Apple is certainly happy to let you pay more than $100.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Nope, Amorph, that's simply for upgrading your $100/yr subscription.

Note the top of that particular answer:
But once you become a full .Mac member, you can upgrade both your Mac.com Email and your iDisk storage. You can also purchase up to ten additional email accounts.

Apple is certainly happy to let you pay more than $100.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Well geez.

My phone company doesn't have a problem charging me

$24 per year for the RIGHT to NOT have my name published for telemarketers to savage me.

$72 per year for voicemail

$60 per year for callerid

My internet company has no problem charging me

$500 per year for internet access.

Point is. Goods and Services are usually associated with a cost. The internet and dot.coms tried to foster a new mentality that Goods and Services need not cost anything and we now know that to be foolish.

Apple must do what they can to push the platform forward. I know that stuff like this my Mother eats up without blinking an eye and I consider her to be an avg user.

Just my 2 cents here, I never thought of iTools as being free.

I'm paying a premium, and a pretty substantial one depending on which Mac I have, and iTools was one of the befefits of spending all of that money.

I'm not whining, just posting my thoughts on it. (I know I'll be plunking down my money for it anyway, so what's the point? )

That being said, I'm not too upset (after thinking it over a little) about the fees. Even at $100 (which isn't the price for another 13 months anyway) it's a pretty useful group of services.

I wonder if it's possible to get some figures on Apple's server useage, costs, etc from providing iTools. I'm sure no one will ever know for sure, but it would be interesting... if people are using multiple accounts like we think they are (hell, even if they're not), their fees might be so freakin' high that they have to start charging.

Actually, I'd like to see a comparison of iTools accounts to Macs sold (outside of education). I'm sure it's at least 3 to 1. I have a couple iTools accounts, and most people probably have a hell of alot more than that.

Times are changing, people are going to have to get used to paying for things that used to be free, I'm afraid.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>

Some of you crack me up. Hardcore. Apple is a BUSINESS, not a charity. NO ONE anywhere owes you ANYTHING - especially a service that makes life easier for FREE. I will pay for it if I want it, and shame on many of you for wanting something for nothing...

Like Steveo says "Don't Steal Music" - well also, "don't reduce the bottom line by giving somethin' for nothin'"

At some point, we all have to realize we are only entitled to ONE THING, our opinion, and nothing more. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Nope, Amorph, that's simply for upgrading your $100/yr subscription.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's what I said: If you have a .Mac account (i.e., if you've paid the $100), you can buy up to 10 additional email accounts for $10 each.

Don't you think that 20MB webspace, no traffic limit, my own internationally registered domain name, unlimited number of pop email accounts ,cgi and perl support cost me 20.- less than .mac would cost me?

Yeah, <a href="http://www.g-news.ch" target="_blank">www.g-news.ch</a> costs less than a .mac email address.

Pathetic.

G-News

PS: that same provider also offers FREE pop email accounts of which every account comes with a 20MB homepage on really fast servers, for free.
They're not out of business either.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: G-News ]</p>

I'm not thrilled at the prospect of paying for .mac, since I seldom use anything except the mac.com mail, but:

Would it have been better if Apple had rolled out iTools for the first time today, and priced it at $100? What I mean is, are we just mad because we've had iTools for free? If I had never used iTools I wouldn't even care about .mac or what it cost, it's not something I'd use.

Anyway, I think Apple is stupid to not offer a free year with a new Mac. How many people are going to spend another $100 after getting their $2,000 iMac home? Probably a lot fewer than would sign up for a free year and then keep it because it's too much hassle to change.

THANKS APPLE! WHOOOOhh!!

Because you've purchased extra iDisk storage for your iTools account, we have the pleasure of letting you know that you've automatically been credited with a full year of .Mac membership. In addition to the benefits you're already enjoying from your additional iDisk storage, your new .Mac membership provides:

[quote]Apple must do what they can to push the platform forward. I know that stuff like this my Mother eats up without blinking an eye and I consider her to be an avg user.<hr></blockquote>

I think everyone understands that Apple providing e-mail and iDisk space wasn't free for them. No one thought it was free for them.

Here's the problem:
Apple offered a free service to those who bought their expensive computers. Users came to depend on this service and Apple is going to take it away entirely unless the users pay $100 a year.

No option to pay less to keep only the mac.com POP e-mail.
No option to pay less to keep the 10MB iDisk.

One option, $100 or nothing.

$8.30/mth for what?
A POP e-mail account.
Anti-virus software. (Crappy anti-virus software at that)
A backup application. (Yet-to-be-seen, guaranteed to be not worth $50 as quoted on their site)
Webhosting
100MB online storage.

Now, standing alone that might be fine. If Apple hadn't had iTools before this and came out and said, "All right, completely new thing. Internet services, $100/yr, here you go."

But that's not what happened. Apple offered the only attractive parts (iDisk, e-mail & hosting) for free to get people used to using them and is now going to take them away unless we pay too much for stuff that we don't want.

I'll pay $15/year for a mac.com POP e-mail address with 10MB storage. But damned if I pay $100/year for some crappy anti-virus and backup software to keep the e-mail address that Apple GAVE ME a year and a half ago. Hotmail charges for POP access, yeah, but you can check it on their webpage still for free. Not so with Apple, they are just taking it away completely unless you pay.

They knew this was coming, it's not like they just now realized that this costs money.

Can't boycott...too late...already paid.

Backup is pretty nifty.

I am pissed off over this announcement also. However, I do not wish to post a flaming post in this thread. I can flame Apple with rational intelligence. My first reaction was shock that was quickly moving to anger. Then I thought about it, and I must say I am still angry. From my reaction and the common reaction of people in this thread (mainly Mac fanatics), I think Apple has made a poor choice. It will hurt the beginning of what could be a wonderful new service. If they kept my e-mail address and 20 MB of webspace, I would be willing to wait to see if I wanted to pay for added services. Now, I am of a mind-set where I do not want to pay them even if the services are amazing. I know this idea is childish in many ways, but Mac users are sticking with Apple. We just went through a completely revised system upgrade. It will be great in the long term, but I think most users had at least one difficult situation during the transition (people who have moved to OS X). I did not mind, and I am always on the cutting edge, waiting to see what comes next to try it out myself. However, I would like it to have been more polished March 24th. I would not say it was a beta product by offical definitions, but it was a bit of a let-down to a product dubbed state-of-the-art. Microsoft had to help Apple with over 70 bugs? I need not say more on this issue...

Now if Apple says it will be starting .Mac, the service will be 100.00 a year, but current users can hold the basic options (an e-mail account, basic web space, etc). No one would be pissed off (or have an excuse to be that way...). Everyone would be supportive to tenatively supportive. It would not cost Apple anymore than it is currently to maintain the same thing (I hope I do not have to explain this logic...but the same should be the same...right?). People who have upgraded thier space already might pay for the service (might be cheaper than an expanded iDisk for many people). People would start to use it or not. However, it would not be hated from day one. It would not cause many Mac users to want to blackball it immediately (perhaps to never look again). I am writing Apple. I will say the same logic in better grammer and wording, and I will hope it has an effect before Sept 30th. Otherwise, I am leaving iTools/.Mac. I am sorry Apple, but this practice is bad sense and bad business. I hope many other users and all of the people who complain in this thread join me in my feabile attempt to persuade Apple with common sense, business, and loyalty issues.

thank-you *sighs* I hope this works out for US...the current users...the ones who try so hard to love Apple

We do appreciate the free software. We do appreciate the excellent platform. It is all wonderful, and we all know why we love it. I think many agree this move pushes us too far.

Zaz, Mooseman and Jon Rubinstein said it for me.

The 'free lunch' internet is coming to an end.

Yeesh. The Mac is for creative types. Do we expect creative folks to render their wares for nothing?

Apple are a business.

.Mac for virus protection, hosting, e:mail, back up protection etc for what? £70? Seems like a good deal over the course of a year.

No adds. No pop ups. It's fair.

It generates revenue for Apple. Heck M$ are up to it. After the balance sheet Apple just had...I think they're gonna get with the real world too. Things cost money.

10.1 fixed 10.04 whatever. Jaguar is a full update. M$ charge big bucks for their OS. Apple charge a fair price for what is a stunning upgrade!

.Mac is far better value for money than the current 'power'Macs!

You've still got plenty of free iapps.

Lemon Bon Bon

yep, i may not be officially boycotting, but i can't roll out enough cash to pay for my, my wife's, and another mac.com accounts. heck, i already own anti-viral software, and retrospect express, so my $99 pays for idisk, homepage and email. but i don't even need much of that.

why can't there be a light version?!?! one email address, 10 mb of space, homepage with a few templates (or templates-only hosting), and be able to send an icard once in a while.

and lemon, c'mon. sure we've got plenty of free iapps, until apple decide to charge for them, once we've gotten accustomed to them.

so the free internet age is at an end. so we bear the brunt of poor long-term planning? great. makes me feel better already.

and lemon, i would say you are FAR outnumbered in your feelings about .mac so far in this thread, and just about every other thread and message board i can find anywhere on the subject.
that's all i, and i would assume most people, would need.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: rok ]</p>

Why does anyone think that they should get anything for free? Where in the world has that concept ever worked?

You must realize by now that all the free things on the internet are lost-leaders. Get serious -- whining about loosing your free e-mail?????

[quote]Originally posted by readthereadme:
<strong>Why does anyone think that they should get anything for free? Where in the world has that concept ever worked?

You must realize by now that all the free things on the internet are lost-leaders. Get serious -- whining about loosing your free e-mail?????</strong><hr></blockquote>

because it was promised for free, and now, once everyone has been using it as a switch selling point, it's now gone. it is NOT that same thing as whining about getting something for free.

i am one of the most vocal supporters of apple, but i think this stinks. i'm not abandoning the platform or anything, but i think it's a bad decision, especially since they need allt he happy warm feelings and customer loyalty they can get these days.

You can get e-mail online for free. You may have to pay for POP mail on some systems, but you do not on all of them. You can get 50MB of storage for free online at Angelfire.com. It does not have the cool iDisk and Homepage features, but those features are developed now. I understand paying for MORE services. I understand paying for MORE space. ETC ETC However, I do not like Apple forcing the choice. I already have Comcast cable with seven e-mail accounts and 20 MB of space. I can use Angelfire for the remainding items I need for free. Whatever Apple...I do not know what services you are quoting...but such little things online are still FREE Offer more...ask us to pay... I think that is fine. Pay or else? I do not take threats or ultimatums very well....sorry....

OK...I did vent after all....I feel better now :-D

This is the full text of the <a href="http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html" target="_blank">feedback</a> I sent to Apple.

[quote]I understand it was basically impossible to offer a free service users wouldn't abuse, so a subscription model was necessary. I have two slight problems with the current arrangement though. There are some users that just want an e-mail address and a very small iDisk, like what was offered for free before. I'm sure these people would be willing to pay ~$29 for this service. It would not offer the a la carte upgrade options other than an upgrade to the full subscription...

Speaking of the full subscription, $99 a year is just too much. $49-$69 a year would be much more reasonable, don't you think?<hr></blockquote>

...and free love That 'worked' too.

I'm sorry Rok that you're having a hard time coming to terms with the real world. I think it'll be a nice premium service to sell to switchers in Apple stores.



Y'know...like 'extended warranties'

Out numbered? Well, people do like a free lunch. Certainly, those 2 million subscribers will fall away dramatically. But many will bend over and take it.

We pay for 'bottled', sorry, 'Mineral' water don't we?



Lemon Bon Bon

Eugene.

Fair cop. Good feedback. A tiered system. Okay. Budget and ala carte.

A compromise then?

Lemon Bon Bon

[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong>Can't boycott...too late...already paid. </strong><hr></blockquote>

poor taylor obviously isn't very poor!

I, on the other hand, am in no position to pay for this even if I would like to. You people complaining at the whiners for not looking at the "reality" of times ought to reflect upon the fact that perhaps they are: reflecting upon the reality of their own financial situations.