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DELETE FIRESIDE CHAT

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
It's an indignation to all posters who revere discussion of politics, religion, and other flameworth topics to move them from the high visibility AppleOutsider forum to a separate one. Would you want your cable news channels moved off your tv lineup?
post #2 of 35
If your topics are so worthy, people will move from AO to Fireside Chat.
post #3 of 35
I have a feeling FC will get plenty of traffic.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #4 of 35
Thread Starter 
You may be right!
post #5 of 35
Yeah, it's a dumb idea. I don't see what the big problem was in the first place that this supposedly solved. People were arguing with each other? Um, isn't that what AO is for?

This was a moderator-induced problem. Mods were too involved in the details of each thread, made people uptight, and this was the response.

Question - why was this never necessary prior to all the new mods?

Laissez-faire, folks. The forums will be fine without you.
post #6 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>This was a moderator-induced problem. Mods were too involved in the details of each thread, made people uptight, and this was the response.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I asked in the other thread, but I ask again in the hopes of actually getting an answer this time:

What are you talking about?

What is "too involved in the details of each thread"?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #7 of 35
If you do this, just make a Bitchin' one...
it would just be an expansion of all the other ones.... FireSide Chat is just an EXTENSION of Outsider

come on, keep it simple stupid
post #8 of 35
My comments are in the "God Himself" thread in FC.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #9 of 35
What a bad idea.

WFT is Outsider for if not to post on all other topics. That's why it was started in the first place.
post #10 of 35
Due to this new precedent I DEMAND that seperate but equal threads be setup for:

All Politics

Animals- post your cat pics or whatever.

Rants- Let us go to war!

Haiku- What??? No Haiku thread R U nuts!


I hate xxx user thread- this one will be popular


We can really have fun with this
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #11 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>I asked in the other thread, but I ask again in the hopes of actually getting an answer this time:

What are you talking about?

What is "too involved in the details of each thread"?</strong><hr></blockquote>AI has gotten really screwed up lately. If you don't see it, you're blind.

Locking all religious threads, giving members special condescending names, moving threads back and forth between forums, starting new forums, calling everyone 'idiots' on the front page, being defensive insulting jerks when people post suggestions or express dissatisfaction, locking threads because a mod thinks it's "stupid" (if that's a reason for locking...). Should I go on? I think all the complaints from members speak for themselves.

Look at the very first mod's post in this thread. WTF is up with that, as a response to a legitimate Suggestion thread?

Again, I ask, what's changed that's necessitated these actions? I don't know, but the only change I see that's occurred is a bunch of new mods in the past couple of weeks. It's a logical causal assessment, I think.

I say it's a moderator-induced problem because there just isn't a problem if you folks would chill out and stop seeing every quirk on the boards (like several religious threads at one time) as some problem that demands immediate intervention. As some of the mods are fond of saying, just lighten up, chill out, stop meddling, and things will go back to normal on there own.

And I still think Fireside Chat is a bad idea. I just don't see what problem it's solving. It just means more clicks to see what's going on.

As for you personally, groverat, I've just been needling you a little. You deserve it for your years of needling everyone else around here. I think I made one fairly innocuous comment directed at you. I just wanted to see if you, as a mod, could take what you've always loved dishing out. Apparently not.


I'm not going to bitch anymore. But something has gotten out of whack around here. Hopefully things will go back to normal soon.

(I've gotten lost in the other threads and can't find your questions anymore. I responded to Powerdoc in another thread.)
post #12 of 35
Above all can some Moderator PLEASE explain what the hell is going on on this forum that USED to set tthe standard for Mac rumours but seems to be the plaything of some new moderators.

Don't you guys have any pride in this site and what it USED to stand for?

Much more of this lame thread closing etc and you will be on your own.

The fact you have posted not a word to the confused souls out here about these recent actions, in particular the deletion of the new G4 thread simply confirms your low opinion of us.

Please. Give us some idea of where this is all coming from and where it is all leading for AI.

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: Moonraker ]</p>
"Beyond the rumour sites. Way beyond"

2002 Apple Computer, Inc
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"Beyond the rumour sites. Way beyond"

2002 Apple Computer, Inc
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post #13 of 35
It IS a bit crabby and antagonistic here lately, for sure.

Not everyone, of course. But there's a small "baiting" faction that seems to like to keep things stirred up a bit (look at Fireside Chat and note who starts what posts and why).

Here's the way I see it (and I'd be right, of course):

A member arrived who is a nice guy, but - horror! - perhaps wears his religion on his sleeve a bit. Big deal! Personally, I never had a problem with this whatsoever, because things like that don't bother me.

He has, in no way, "oppressed" me or infringed upon my enjoyment and participation in these boards. If I see a thread by him that looks like it might not be something I'm interested in, I (now, get this...this is REALLY cool and some of you should try it) simply DON'T READ OR PARTICIPATE.

Holy cow...what a staggering concept!

Anyway, for whatever reason, he seemed to REALLY get under the skin of some of the other members here. And they took it upon themselves to never miss an opportunity to tweak, needle, slam, etc. this new guy (and a few others with certain strongly-held convictions).

Threads are started for the sole purpose of agitating, stirring the waters, etc.

It's that simple.

They're fighting the good fight, I suppose. Something about "religion getting crammed down their throat" and all.

I don't see it quite that way, but who am I to argue against their proven intellect? I have to take them at their word I guess.
post #14 of 35
Purple fishsticks, people. That's all you have to know: purple fishsticks.

post #15 of 35
bah. Forget it, you're right.

I'm Satan incarnate.


ROAR!


[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #16 of 35
FShip pushed buttons knowing it would piss others off.
BR and others pushed buttons knowing it would piss others off.

It's not too complicated.

And BRussell:
"All" the religious threads aren't locked. One day you'll beat up those invisible demons, so keep after it.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #17 of 35
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Moonraker:
<strong>Above all can some Moderator PLEASE explain what the hell is going on on this forum that USED to set tthe standard for Mac rumours but seems to be the plaything of some new moderators.

Don't you guys have any pride in this site and what it USED to stand for?

Much more of this lame thread closing etc and you will be on your own.

The fact you have posted not a word to the confused souls out here about these recent actions, in particular the deletion of the new G4 thread simply confirms your low opinion of us.

Please. Give us some idea of where this is all coming from and where it is all leading for AI.

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: Moonraker ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Let's follow some logical progression.

Other places on the web post pictures.
Apple legal.
Pictures removed.

Pictures are posted in a thread here.
-------- take a wild guess?
Pictures removed.

Would you prefer to be inconvenienced for 5 minutes, or not have AI at all?


FYI: if you don't like us, leave. I think your analysis of the situation re: new moderators is a bit shortsighted and false. Show me one situation where a new moderator has done something worthy of this criticism, and I'll take action.

Feel free to contact me personally if you have any more concerns about moderation here.


Hugs,

Jonathan
post #18 of 35
Hugs right back (does that make me gay?)

Anyway, just to set the record straight, I think you guys did a good job, and I'm sure it's not about press passes. That was just a bit of superfluous mouthing off, gotta keep my rep, you know? Now before you say, "What rep, crazed retard?" let me just say, yep, exactly! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Everyone who wants the pics already has them, and a few that still need them can get them easily.

My f-ing complaint is with Jobs and company not any of the mods. In that whole spasmodic rant I didn't see one word against anyone mod'ing anything on these boards. I don't see why you guys were getting mad at me, I wuv ya all.

If I knew what you were doing, I wouldn't have posted all over the place. My threads/posts just kept disappearing and I wasn't sure why. Note, I've never posted or linked the pics, just the letter (which Apple can hardly deny)

It must be my affable style, gets 'em every time.

IBL!
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IBL!
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post #19 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>FYI: if you don't like us, leave. I think your analysis of the situation re: new moderators is a bit shortsighted and false. Show me one situation where a new moderator has done something worthy of this criticism, and I'll take action.</strong><hr></blockquote>I'm guessing that you're addressing this to me because I brought up new moderators.

All the situations I listed above are factual. About half of them were new mods, and half you. [quote]FYI: If you don't like us, leave.<hr></blockquote>That's the typical response, isn't it. Basically, a defensive "screw you," rather than even entertaining the idea that the current whacked-out state of AI may be any fault of your own. Congratulations.
post #20 of 35
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>That's the typical response, isn't it. Basically, a defensive "screw you," rather than even entertaining the idea that the current whacked-out state of AI may be any fault of your own. Congratulations.</strong><hr></blockquote>


No, BRussell, I was addressing Moonraker, the post that i quoted.

Don't assume.

I'll answer you now.
post #21 of 35
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>AI has gotten really screwed up lately. If you don't see it, you're blind.

Locking all religious threads, </strong><hr></blockquote> This did not happen. It was a failed attempt at consolidation of religious discussion into one thread (an admittedly poor idea). The idea then morphed into a seperate religion forum, as AO was being choked with religion threads. Out of the 40 topics on the first page of AO, at one point (just prior to the creation of Fireside Chat) there were 24 religion-themed threads.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>giving members special condescending names, </strong><hr></blockquote>

If you're referring to Fellowship's title, it was meant to be a joke, as the resemblance between him and Ned Flanders seemed uncanny. Lighthearted fun does still have a place amidst all of the religious warfare around here, doesn't it?

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>moving threads back and forth between forums,</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have seen two instances of this. Chalk it up to new mods, give them a little slack. If it happens again, please notify ME personally.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>starting new forums,</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you're referring to MWNY Discussion, it was simply to make it easier to clean up afterwards. You are fully aware of the havoc that MacWorlds cause around here. Containing all of it into one forum not only sped up the forums, but made cleaning up afterwards easier as well. Remember that, at that point in time, the staff consisted of Amorph, myself, and Jamie.

If you're referring to Fireside Chat, I fail to see what's screwed up about this. The need for a new forum is defined when a current forum is overrun with topics about a specific topic (which then makes the original focus of the forum cloudy). Refer to my point above about 24/40 threads being religion. at MacNN, when there was a need for a seperate OS X - Software forum because the OS X - General forum was being overrun with software related threads, it was created. At ArsTechnica, when the Lounge was overrun with sex threads, they created the Velvet Room. Standard stuff. It seems that 90% of the population is happy with the creation of FC- yes, some details are still being ironed out. The whole point of creating it was to prevent religious and political discussion from being crushed in AO like it was- by giving it its own forum, it's our way of saying that it should thrive.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>calling everyone 'idiots' on the front page,</strong><hr></blockquote>
My mistake. A joke, but apparently people don't get my sense of humor. Get over it. If you were that personally offended by it, i'm very sorry, but it just seems that it's a very MINOR incident that you're using to have another point to bitch at me with.


[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong> being defensive insulting jerks when people post suggestions or express dissatisfaction,</strong><hr></blockquote>

Point it out. Are you not defensive when you're criticized unfairly? I mean no harm, and I reserve the right to defend my actions if people don't understand the meaning of them.

Being a mod or admin does not strip you of your rights to defend yourself against unnecessary criticism.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>locking threads because a mod thinks it's "stupid" (if that's a reason for locking...). Should I go on? I think all the complaints from members speak for themselves.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't see all that many complaints from anyone but you and a few others. It's not like Suggestions is the most trafficked forum. Until I see some serious evidence that there's a sizable amount of people that aren't happy with our performance, I don't think that action needs to be taken to please a vocal minority.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
Look at the very first mod's post in this thread. WTF is up with that, as a response to a legitimate Suggestion thread? </strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. Bad form. I will talk to Jamie about it.

However, the meaning was there... FC is not going away, not by a long shot.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
Again, I ask, what's changed that's necessitated these actions? I don't know, but the only change I see that's occurred is a bunch of new mods in the past couple of weeks. It's a logical causal assessment, I think.</strong><hr></blockquote>

90% of the things you've complained about have been things that mods can't do. Period. It's me. You don't like me. Mods can only move and lock threads. They don't make decisions about the other kind of stuff, that's all me, and Amorph.

So, in short, I'm sorry you don't like me.
post #22 of 35
Jonathan:

Rgiht. First off, THANKS! for the response. I appreciate it.

[quote] Let's follow some logical progression.

Other places on the web post pictures.
Apple legal.
Pictures removed.

Pictures are posted in a thread here.
-------- take a wild guess?
Pictures removed.

Would you prefer to be inconvenienced for 5 minutes, or not have AI at all?<hr></blockquote>

Sure I understand that situation but there was no explanation at all as to why this very popular thread was pulled. A simple post requesting people stop continually posting pictures and explain the situation would I think have helped a lot more people understand the actual position.


[quote]FYI: if you don't like us, leave. <hr></blockquote>

Come on. That is everyones perogative but I preffered to set out my feelings about this situation so that it could be debated openly. Silence never solved anything. And I don't want to leave casue I have always admired and enjoyed Ai both for the content and the folks here.

[quote]I think your analysis of the situation re: new moderators is a bit shortsighted and false. Show me one situation where a new moderator has done something worthy of this criticism, and I'll take action.<hr></blockquote>

Simply that over the last couple of weeks I have never seen so many new threads closed in 'Future Hardware'. To the extent that, like today, it became a farce. Now Moderators have ultimate say as to what stays and what goes but you must also realise that peope 'usually' take time and effort in posting stuff. I refer to the new moderators because the thread locking seemed to increase somewhat since they were announced. I was probably too generalistic with that point and apologise for that.

If they simply don't bother to read previous threads and repeat post then thats silly. If they post non "FH' then thats understanable also. But when threads discuss for instance future use of Bluetooth technology in upcoming Macs in new ways and the htread is toasted it does not make sense to me.

I think the sentiment from others apart from me indicate a frustration and unhappiness with the rather overzealous way threads were summarily closed. It is not because we want to rough Mods up, more that given no feedback ie explanation of a particualr stance on certain types of post, we react with surpise and passion.

One of the greatest strenghs of this site is the flow of theory, semi-fact, debate etc. if you kill off all tenous threads you weaken the depth and base of the site in my view.

Does it really hurt to leave some more threads alone.?

I might suggest that you perhaps set out a bit more clearly the basic 'rules' you invisage for the forums ( ie check posts first, if pictures are pulled because of legal reasons stop reposts, cut the crap etc). ( yes I have read the FAQ but it does not really cover it well.

Also rather than summarily closing threads perhaps mods can 'guide' more.

Above all the reason I personally question what I see as unfair and unwarranted thread closures is because I care a lot about this place

[quote]Feel free to contact me personally if you have any more concerns about moderation here.

Hugs,

Jonathan
<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the offer. I think it is also useful to discuss this openly in the forums. I guess this should now be in your other thread if you wanted to move it.

Anyhow I am glad to see the G4 thread back ad as ever beyond a concern over thread locking you all do a great job here.

Kisses,

Simon
"Beyond the rumour sites. Way beyond"

2002 Apple Computer, Inc
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"Beyond the rumour sites. Way beyond"

2002 Apple Computer, Inc
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post #23 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>No, BRussell, I was addressing Moonraker, the post that i quoted.

Don't assume.

I'll answer you now.</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't think so. Whether you admit it now or not, you were responding to me, perhaps accidentally. You said "I think your analysis of the situation re: new moderators is a bit shortsighted and false." Moonraker didn't have an analysis of the situation re: new mods, I did. [quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>You don't like me.</strong><hr></blockquote>I hate the sin but love the sinner.
post #24 of 35
Thread Starter 
BR:


[quote]Originally posted by Moonraker:
<strong>Above all can some Moderator PLEASE explain what the hell is going on on this forum that USED to set tthe standard for Mac rumours but seems to be the plaything of some new moderators.

Don't you guys have any pride in this site and what it USED to stand for?

Much more of this lame thread closing etc and you will be on your own.

The fact you have posted not a word to the confused souls out here about these recent actions, in particular the deletion of the new G4 thread simply confirms your low opinion of us.

Please. Give us some idea of where this is all coming from and where it is all leading for AI.

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: Moonraker ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


How's that not directed at moderators?
post #25 of 35
i'm sorry, but if i were threatened with legal action if pictures weren't removed from my site, the last thing i woudl be worried about is making forum posters happy.

the thread was gone for 15 - 20 min, in that time dozens of posts popped up asking about pics and the thread. those threads were closed because the original thread was coming back. it's 15 min., that's nothing.

the thread got cleaned up then put back.

if everyone were so damned snippy lately it probably would have gone off without a hitch.

however, rather than do that mature thing and ask once, in a nice straight forward manner what happened, dozens of members start going off about censorship and heavy handed mods. blah blah.

(as for those who posted their questions here, thank you. that was a nice way to handle things)

things have gotten way too short tempered and bitchy here. just relax. .mac wasn't that bad.
post #26 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>BR:
How's that not directed at moderators?</strong><hr></blockquote>Well, OK. You're off the hook this time, I guess. But watch your step, buddy.
post #27 of 35
Fireside Chat is the spill-over resivour for the influx of MacAddict.com retards.

Barto
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

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Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
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post #28 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>
FYI: if you don't like us, leave. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Durh.. Okay.
When ya gonna get around to banning me? ( I did ask to be deleted.....)

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
When it's my turn to be God you're going to be in real trouble...
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When it's my turn to be God you're going to be in real trouble...
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post #29 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Barto:
<strong>Fireside Chat is the spill-over resivour for the influx of MacAddict.com retards.

Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not spill over from Macaddict.com. Been here longer than some of the mods... And it can be argued that I was a major factor in the creation of the FC forum. NOt that it was my aim or anything...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #30 of 35
I can kinda agree with the sentiment. I wouldn't mind seeing fireside chat do what it is meant to do. ::shrugs:: It is kinda getting to me how the one sentance wonders post their 'wisdom' as a rebutle to a decent argument. Then again, I shouldn't exept much from the likes of them. Maybe I should keep to 'intelligent' discussions....
I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
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I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
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post #31 of 35
[quote]Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself:
<strong>I can kinda agree with the sentiment. I wouldn't mind seeing fireside chat do what it is meant to do. ::shrugs:: It is kinda getting to me how the one sentance wonders post their 'wisdom' as a rebutle to a decent argument. Then again, I shouldn't exept much from the likes of them. Maybe I should keep to 'intelligent' discussions....</strong><hr></blockquote>

HAH! You are one to talk about intelligence. You announce to everyone on the board that you don't like jews and then whine when someone called you a bigot (which you are).

"What's that giant sucking sound?" Perot asked.

It's all the surrounding intelligence being sucked into the vacuum of stupidity surrounding NUM.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #32 of 35
Funny how bitter you are to follow someone you don't agree with around the board JUST so you can respond to their stuff. But then, I guess I'm flattered that you are such a fan of my work. Politely go FVCK yourself.

Mr. Jon sir, can ya stop this guy from harrassing me? I am free to express myself just as he is and he is taking the fireside fury and bringing where it doesn't belong.

AKA. Feel free to disagree with me IN the forum but kindly don't carry my work to other threads where it DOESN'T belong. I would certainly not hound you. Can you keep to the posting guidlines please skippy?

[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: Not Unlike Myself ]</p>
I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
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I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
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post #33 of 35
Mods, I think this thread now belongs in Fireside Chat... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #34 of 35
Heh. I remember when Apple Outsider was made because General Discussion was too crowded. Now we have a descendant of the descendant.

I even think I was the first to come up with "AppleOutsider" in some speculation about future Apple products (something involving the moon as screen or something)
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #35 of 35
Thread Starter 
i prefer the lock.

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