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••• Posting Guidelines - Feedback

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
[7 Aug: Edit: The new guidelines have been posted and are available through the link at the top of the page - please post feedback below]

As you may already know, a review of posting guidelines is in process and should be completed by the end of this week. The new guidelines should make what is acceptable content much clearer to both members and moderators.

I thought it might be interesting to solicit feedback from members on what they think could be changed in the posting guidelines to help make AppleInsider a happier place. If you think any particular area of the current guidelines is clear as mud, let us know by posting here. If you think anything is missing from the guidelines let us know too.

A copy of the current guidelines is quoted below for reference:

Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers

If you agree to abide by our rules below, please press the Agree button, which will enable you to register on this message board. If you do not agree to these terms, press the Cancel button.

Considering the real-time nature of this message board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of posted messages and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Members are limited to one account. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).We reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.

Please try to keep the 'tone' of your posts as mature as possible: it is beneficial to post in an adult manner.

[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Jamie ]

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Jonathan ]

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Jamie ]</p>
post #2 of 42
from another Suggestions thread:
[quote] originaly posted by torifile:

Spamming needs to be DEFINED in the rules, not left up to someone's discretion. No offense to the current mods/admins because I think as a whole they are doing a great job, but let's remove some of the subjectivity.
<hr></blockquote>

and something from me:
[quote] that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. <hr></blockquote>

I don't like that part which is bold.
We had once a thread about Masturbation...
post #3 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Defiant:
<strong>from another Suggestions thread:

Spamming needs to be DEFINED in the rules, not left up to someone's discretion. No offense to the current mods/admins because I think as a whole they are doing a great job, but let's remove some of the subjectivity.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

This will be taken care of

[quote]Originally posted by Defiant:
<strong>I don't like that part which is bold.
We had once a thread about Masturbation...</strong><hr></blockquote>

And a fine thread it was too We'll look at that.
post #4 of 42
"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

I wasn't sure what profane mean't, but looking it up in the dictionary it seems to mean irreverant, blasphemous, godless, irreligious, ungodly, secular, unconsecrated, unholy etc. As an atheist, I guess thats put an end to my postings in fireside chat
Is this your intended interpretation of profane ? It seems to favour the Fellowships amongst us.
Also, perhaps sexually oriented should be changed to sexually explicit.

[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: RodUK ]</p>
post #5 of 42
Really, the whole thing is problematic. That whole second paragraph is violated on a regular basis. AO, FC and FH all are based on things that would violate the rules in it. So, you've got a quandary: Do you change the rules so that all current active threads meet them OR do you delete all the threads that violate those specific guidelines. If you do the former, you're going to have mass chaos in here and you can't possibly do the latter. So you'll have partial enforcement of the law and cries of favoritism and bias from certain people. Wait, that's what you have now.... Ah, you guys are screwed.

Seriously, the whole thing needs to be started over. Good luck...
post #6 of 42
I think you have a good start, but maybe just keep it in: You can not post anything unlawful such as threats on another persons life...or something outrageous like that?

But, yeah, any thing false is a big point of this whole board

Also, a lot of people make jokes, why can't what currently goes on here be attapted. People make fun of each other, and sometimes people joke. But, to make it so everyone thinks 'bout what they type every time, well, i do not like it.

Maybe, just say "nothing against the law can be said" And for the Copyrighted pictures thing: Sometimes people post screen shots of web pages and of Apple products, where the copyright is owned by Apple.... How about if we just have to say Copyright: Apple 2002

is that good?

But, that is a big list...just say "don't do anything stupid that will make us get mad/ Unlawful or acting like an ass."


thank you for your time,
Neb <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
post #7 of 42
I appreciate the difficult situation you're in, Jamie. Here's what I think about the situation, for what it's worth. Knowingly false/inaccurate statements will be made here since it's a rumor site; the conduct guidelines need to be adjusted for Fireside, in accordance with the nature of the forum. I think it's wrong to limit speech on Fireside except in severe cases. Perhaps instead of having sweeping limitations on conduct, fireside moderation should focus primarily on the curtailment of spamming. If I read the situation correctly, a large amount of spamming was the major reason why action was taken against Fellowship. In most cases, it makes more sense to limit excessive posts, rather than to discipline individuals for expressing controversial beliefs in the course of discussions.

I would make the following changes:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is excessively abusive, hateful or harassing, nor any material that is excessively vulgar, obscene or profane. You agree not to post a substantial number of redundant discussion threads. Furthermore, you agree not to post any material that is threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

Those are simply my thoughts on the subject.

[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Big Mac ]</p>
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post #8 of 42
Please use this thread for feedback about the newly enacted Posting Guidelines.
post #9 of 42
I don't like the Fireside Chat part about not posting just links. Sometimes great discussions start that way. I guess I just don't see what harm it causes. Maybe just putting "are discouraged" rather than "not allowed."

I also wonder if you've thought out what it means to not allow evangelizing viewpoints. Is anti-Christian "evangelizing" not allowed either? And is that only about religion? What about a political statement criticizing Bush? And do you have to always say "I see the other side here, but..." to prove you're open to discussion? This seems to be more about how open- or closed-minded individual posters are. How can you make people be more open-minded?

IMO, presenting a strong case for your side IS a good way to foster discussion. Is evangelizing = presenting your side?
post #10 of 42
Evangelizing means what Fellowship was doing.

Posting a sermon on something, and not being open to any discussion on it. You don't have to post that 'you see the other side', you just have to accept discussion on it.
post #11 of 42
I can see emailing an admin/mod does absolutely no good.....the post right below this one is STILL not edited/modified...

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: TOOL ]</p>
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post #12 of 42
Sorry, John, we can't all be 37 and have nothing better to do with our time than browse the internet and play with digital cameras.

Don't you have a family?


PS: if you read, you'll note that these guidelines have been requested by users.
post #13 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:
<strong>I wasn't sure what profane mean't, but looking it up in the dictionary it seems to mean irreverant, blasphemous, godless, irreligious, ungodly, secular, unconsecrated, unholy etc. As an atheist, I guess thats put an end to my postings in fireside chat
Is this your intended interpretation of profane ? It seems to favour the Fellowships amongst us.
[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: RodUK ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think profane is better defined as something extremely vulgar and unpleasing to the ear. I assume that's the definition implied.
post #14 of 42
I think the guidelines are good, overall. Nice work.

I think the one thing that could and should be rephrased is the first point:

Currently: "The right (if you are an American citizen) to free speech as guaranteed by the 1st amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not apply when posting at this message board."

I think that will not go over "too big". It sounds quite harsh. Perhaps like this:

Proposed: "Although AppleInsider respects the freedom of speech guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution (if you are an American), and works to provide a free public forum for discussion, the membership must understand that there are certain limits. As this Bulletin Board is a service provided by AppleInsider, the membership must understand that AppleInsider has the right and obligation to establish certain guidelines for the good of the boards in general. Posters are allowed a great deal of flexibility in their posts, but also must adhere to the guidelines set forth.
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post #15 of 42
I agree with SDW2001 on the 1st Amendment reference. It came off a bit heavy handed to me when I first read it.

The only other thing I noticed that might cause some confusion is the definition of 'Current Hardware'. I can remember a few threads being moved from FH to CH on the day of an announcement. The difference between 'current hardware offerings' and 'hardware that is currently shipping' can be quite a bit with Apple.

Otherwise, nice work!

-G
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post #16 of 42
It's blunt, yeah, but that's why it's worded the way it is. I appreciate SDW's attempt but I find it too wordy and its purpose is difficult to understand.

#1 is merely meant to inform those that would scream "What about free speech!?" that free speech doesn't apply here. And believe me, there are many who don't get that point.
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post #17 of 42
my biggest fear is that implementing these "guidelines" are going take some of the unique spirit out of the AI boards. i can see that a lot of potentially great threads being closed down, if thet haven't already, that don't fit in these new parameters. maybe i'm just bitter that my poo thread got closed, but hey, it should have been allowed to die a dignifed natural death of lack of interest. for shame.

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: running with scissors ]</p>
post #18 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by running with scissors:
<strong>my biggest fear is that implementing these "guidelines" are going take some of the unique spirit out of the AI boards. i can see that a lot of potentially great threads being closed down, if thet haven't already, that don't fit in these new parameters.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The guidelines have been put in place to specifically prevent this from happening. Now that they are there it should be clear to everyone, members and mods, exactly what is and what isn't acceptable.

J :cool:
post #19 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by running with scissors:
<strong>my biggest fear is that implementing these "guidelines" are going take some of the unique spirit out of the AI boards. i can see that a lot of potentially great threads being closed down, if thet haven't already, that don't fit in these new parameters. maybe i'm just bitter that my poo thread got closed, but hey, it should have been allowed to die a dignifed natural death of lack of interest. for shame.

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: running with scissors ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you. It was a popular thread, grew quickly to three pages and a number of moderators also contributed. As groverat says though, free speech isn't welcome here.
post #20 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Jamie:
<strong>

The guidelines have been put in place to specifically prevent this from happening. Now that they are there it should be clear to everyone, members and mods, exactly what is and what isn't acceptable.

J :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>

i guess i just don't see it that way. under the new guidelines, your thread on masturbation, had it been posted by a non mod, would be a no go, what fun is that?
post #21 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by running with scissors:
<strong>

i guess i just don't see it that way. under the new guidelines, your thread on masturbation, had it been posted by a non mod, would be a no go, what fun is that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The thread 'Masturbation' was posted by a "non mod" as you put it. I wasn't a moderator on these boards way back then and, being Scottish, I was probably drunk when I posted it anyway

Now that the guidelines are in place, such a thread would still be allowed anyway. It wasn't/isn't sexually graphic, offensive or toilet humor.

J :cool:
post #22 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:
<strong>

As groverat says though, free speech isn't welcome here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No one said free speech isn't allowed. The guidelines state that the definition of free speech as defined in the 1st amendment to the U.S. Constitution don't apply here because this BB is not the US Congress.

J :cool:
post #23 of 42
Free speech isn't welcome here? What does that mean?

If you don't understand the rules well enough to follow them then I suppose that might make sense.

I realize you are merely pouting and I understand, but the thread violated the posting guidelines, as did the masturbation thread, you really can't trust a European with a definition of what is "sexually graphic" anyway!

And in case you haven't noticed, the masturbation thread is gone. No more griping about how that was allowed, mmk?

And furthermore, scissors, gripes about moderators locking threads belong in the inbox of the moderator or an administrator, not on the boards.
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post #24 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Free speech isn't welcome here? What does that mean?

If you don't understand the rules well enough to follow them then I suppose that might make sense.

I realize you are merely pouting and I understand, but the thread violated the posting guidelines, as did the masturbation thread, you really can't trust a European with a definition of what is "sexually graphic" anyway!

And in case you haven't noticed, the masturbation thread is gone. No more griping about how that was allowed, mmk?

And furthermore, scissors, gripes about moderators locking threads belong in the inbox of the moderator or an administrator, not on the boards.</strong><hr></blockquote>

first off, neither one of them should be gone, but that's not the point of my post. i do not have a "gripe" about any mods at all, your doing jobs as defined by the guides. my comments about those threads were used to illustrate a point regarding the guides. i simply feel there is a place for random bullshit for the sake of random bullshit. you start trying too hard to clean things up, and you end up having a board with no, for lack of a better word, soul.
post #25 of 42
poo and masturbation is "soul"?



[edit]

Silliness is allowed, absolutely.

Crude things aren't, and crude things aren't a requisite for something having "soul".

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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post #26 of 42
Wow. Let's not say we're using this thread for feedback. Let's call it for what it is - a thread for the mods/admins to be defensive.


BTW, it's incorrect to say that the First Amendment doesn't apply on a message board. The gov't can't limit speech here or anywhere else. It's not a question of -where- the speech takes place, it's a question of -who- does the censoring.
post #27 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>Wow. Let's not say we're using this thread for feedback. Let's call it for what it is - a thread for the mods/admins to be defensive.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh yeah!? YOU'RE DEFENSIVE!



I, for one, appreciate input into what would make the community better. I appreciate SDW's suggestion, absolutely, but I disagree. I am only one mod among many and I am certainly not an administrator.

[quote]<strong>BTW, it's incorrect to say that the First Amendment doesn't apply on a message board. The gov't can't limit speech here or anywhere else. It's not a question of -where- the speech takes place, it's a question of -who- does the censoring.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are entirely correct, that is a logical fallacy on my part (I wrote that particular bit).

It should say:
"The administration at AppleInsider is not limited by the 1st amendment to the U.S. Constitution which guarantees free speech and protection from prior restraing to American citizens. Being a private enterprise, AppleInsider is also not bound by any similar rights or protections outlined by foreign bodies."

or something like that that sounds better.
Or somesuch.
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post #28 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Free speech isn't welcome here? What does that mean?

If you don't understand the rules well enough to follow them then I suppose that might make sense.

I realize you are merely pouting and I understand.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm, I guess when you said "#1 is merely meant to inform those that would scream 'What about free speech!?' that free speech doesn't apply here. And believe me, there are many who don't get that point." you were right.

I think there is a distinction between guidelines and rules though. The former seem to have turned into the latter.

And yes, I'm a regular Bridget Bardot when it comes to pouting
post #29 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>poo and masturbation is "soul"?



[edit]

Silliness is allowed, absolutely.

Crude things aren't, and crude things aren't a requisite for something having "soul".

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

the issue i'm trying to get at is bigger than those two threads, and no, crudeness does not equate soul. but humor is a big part of it. how are you determining what is silly and what is crude? what, in the context of those two threads, which i might add, were handled quite tactfully by the members of this board, was crude? the topic? i guess i fail to the crudeness and saw a lot of humor, and yes, some insight. sorry to continue this further. i said my peace. i'll take my answer off the air.
post #30 of 42
RodUK:

Point taken.

When one is obliged to follow guidelines they become rules, yes. I don't see the gap between the two words that you do, perhaps.

scissors:

All specific gripes about specific locks go into the inbox of the moderator or an administrator, how difficult is that concept?
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post #31 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>RodUK:

Point taken.

When one is obliged to follow guidelines they become rules, yes. I don't see the gap between the two words that you do, perhaps.

scissors:

All specific gripes about specific locks go into the inbox of the moderator or an administrator, how difficult is that concept?</strong><hr></blockquote>

what ever. i'm done.
post #32 of 42
I just wonder whether the concept of thread locking in general can be used to a members benefit. For example, if a thread is started on a topic I disagree with, or I've put my point and I don't want another person to be able to respond, I simply shout POO or MASTURBATION a couple of times and the chances are the thread will be locked. In effect, this gives members as much control over thread locking as moderators.
Just a thought...
post #33 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:
<strong>I just wonder whether the concept of thread locking in general can be used to a members benefit. For example, if a thread is started on a topic I disagree with, or I've put my point and I don't want another person to be able to respond, I simply shout POO or MASTURBATION a couple of times and the chances are the thread will be locked. In effect, this gives members as much control over thread locking as moderators.
Just a thought...</strong><hr></blockquote>

In that kind of situation we may remove the offending posts rather than the entire thread.

J :cool:
post #34 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by AppleMaster:
<strong>

I think profane is better defined as something extremely vulgar and unpleasing to the ear. I assume that's the definition implied.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I find very little to be "profane." It needs to be defined.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #35 of 42
It doesn't have to say exactly what I suggested.....I just think the fact that is now says "the first amendment doesn't apply here" is not the best way to say it.

I do think though, that the way I suggested it clearly states AppleInsider's right to even establish the guidelines in the first place.

Also, I agree that the "current hardware" definition" could be better. "Currently shipping"? I don't think that's the way the forum is now.....it also talks about previous products that are still used. For example, I use a Pismo Powerbook...is a thread on that not allowed?
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post #36 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>It doesn't have to say exactly what I suggested.....I just think the fact that is now says "the first amendment doesn't apply here" is not the best way to say it.

I do think though, that the way I suggested it clearly states AppleInsider's right to even establish the guidelines in the first place.

Also, I agree that the "current hardware" definition" could be better. "Currently shipping"? I don't think that's the way the forum is now.....it also talks about previous products that are still used. For example, I use a Pismo Powerbook...is a thread on that not allowed?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course, yes, you can speak of your Pismo , by currently shipping : we means new stuff and occasions. Perhaps we can change currently shipping by that have been already shipped. You can suggest something, but it must be short.
post #37 of 42
*bump* in the hopes that perhaps Jonathan can find the right post to edit/delete after I emailed him....(yeah sure.whatever, but I'll give it a shot)
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post #38 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
Also, I agree that the "current hardware" definition" could be better. "Currently shipping"? I don't think that's the way the forum is now.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Per the current guidelines, we can talk about the 867DP and 1GhzDP in Current Hardware, and the 1.2GhzDP (shipping in Sept.) in Future Hardware. I realize it gets a little sticky until someone actually has a new machine on their desk, but maybe 'Current Hardware' could be more defined as 'Announced Hardware' to allieviate any confusion.

- G
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post #39 of 42
I violated none of these yet got a thread locked. If you think my thread is lame, that's not grounds for locking it. And if you don't like me, don't like my statements...say it to my face. What grounds is it for me being harassed and getting a thread lock.

AI needs a serious gut check in terms of how they choose moderators around here.

I proved my point though.
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post #40 of 42
Oh, I also thought we couldn't post sexually explicit images. So moderators can? Check my thread "Not apologizing. What are the grounds for those?
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