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Personal Attacks

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone,

As an AI member since February 2000, I have grown accustomed to heated debate. I myself have gotten very fired up as many of you know. But, I rarely make and attack on the person or engage in name calling.

Recently, I have been attacked directly and implicitly in Fireside Chat. I know that the forum will get heated and that's fine. But, when I am criticized as "having no critical thinking skills" and called things like "Mr Thickie" (hilarious as that may be) it is out of line. And, I'm not the only one. Others have had the same thing done to them.

Other offenses include "SDW, you obviously have no comprehension skills whatsoever", or something to that effect. Often, I have seen certain members label arguments "stupid" or "silly", with no real backing for the statement. What is really offensive is that often the individuals use these labels when they simply DISAGREE with an argument.

As I said, I'm not the only one. I'm not going to name names here, but I DID in a recent email to Jonathan. So then, we'll see how he responds. I am certainly willling and able to to defend myself, but this also should not be allowed to continue. If it IS ALLOWED to go on, then those who attack are not going to continue to get a measured response from me, and I doubt from others. I just got done with a thread where someone presented a perfectly plausible argument, and that person was attacked. When I say this, I mean the rebuttal to the argument was condescending, rude, and arrogant (and it wasn't in jest). It's as if some people have to INSULT the argument before they rebutt.

Look, labeling something "ridiculous" and then proceeding to post WHY it is ridiculous is just fine. I am talking about someone making an argument, and having it be dismissed as "stupid" or "silly" with no real rebuttal points. The aformentioned name calling is totally over the top.

Something needs to be done. This is the first time I've ever asked in over two years, but I feel it is now necessary. If any other mod or admin is interested, I'll CC the email to you. Thanks.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #2 of 29
Posted for everyone from the Posting Guidelines:

[quote]4. Excessive ad-hominem attacks of forum members will not be tolerated. We understand that things get heated (especially in Fireside Chat), but it helps to maintain a modicum of respect for the membership. Attack ideas, not people. Be open-minded and try to help foster meaningful discussion (yes, meaningful discussion is possible if everyone respects each other).<hr></blockquote>

Please keep this in mind when posting in general, but even more so when getting into the debates in Fireside Chat.
post #3 of 29
i think he's asking for some moderator smackdown in the fireside chat.....

everyone knows the rules.
post #4 of 29
I doubt anything will happen. I have made similar complaints and nothning has come of it yet. The rules are there, but the Mods thus far have been lax in enforcing them when the people breaking them use arguments that tey agree with, no matter how rudely or inappropriately stated. Oh well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 29
SDW, i'm not sure that i recieved email from you.

The AI email server is busted...


send it to my personal address: jrw227 at mac dot com
post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 
OK.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #7 of 29
SDW, quit spreading your baseless bullshit. Your arguments have all been brought down on numerous levels to no effect on you. You simply don't listen to the evidence against your poorly though out drivel. Quit complaining and start taking responsibility for your reasonings.
post #8 of 29
That's enough of that.

Everyone calm down, take a deep breath, grow a thick skin, and let out all the hot air before posting.

Thanks.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

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The Mayflies - Black earth Americana. Now on iTMS!
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"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

Original music:
The Mayflies - Black earth Americana. Now on iTMS!
Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
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post #9 of 29
[quote]SDW, quit spreading your baseless bullshit. Your arguments have all been brought down on numerous levels to no effect on you. You simply don't listen to the evidence against your poorly though out drivel. Quit complaining and start taking responsibility for your reasonings. <hr></blockquote>

I hope you don't honestly believe that a debate on the internet is going to change one's feelings on the subject.

Even if the other person in the debate seems to not get your point despite you having stated it in 10 different ways with examples, it's still no reason to resort to personal attacks. Just post your opinion if you feel you need to.
post #10 of 29
I agree Fran, ad hominem attacks should not be tolerated, unless there is a "free-for-all" forum, (much as Fireside chat).

It also has become tiresome to have to scroll through 5 useless one-line posts saying something like "crap" for every one interesting or substantiated post. But I suppose that is the cost of our first amendment.

Mandricard
AppleInsider
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
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Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
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post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>

I hope you don't honestly believe that a debate on the internet is going to change one's feelings on the subject.

Even if the other person in the debate seems to not get your point despite you having stated it in 10 different ways with examples, it's still no reason to resort to personal attacks. Just post your opinion if you feel you need to.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly! Look, I'll use Fran and I an example here. Fran and I have totally opposed political views (well, just about). We get into it. It almost gets humorous. No, actually it DOES get humorous. In the end, we can be civil no matter how heated it gets. We post our linkage and evidence, points, smilies, etc. We rip the shit out of each other's arguments. But, we also rarely, if ever, seriosuly call the other a derogatory name. We might even go so far as to call each other "hopeless" or "a true believer", but that's about it.

Now, for this;

[quote]SDW, quit spreading your baseless bullshit. Your arguments have all been brought down on numerous levels to no effect on you. You simply don't listen to the evidence against your poorly though out drivel. Quit complaining and start taking responsibility for your reasonings. <hr></blockquote>

1) I have documentation. It was shared with Jonathan and Fran.

2) I have never asked for action on this before, no matter how heated things have gotten.

3) You simply don't listen to the evidence against your poorly though out drivel. This is exactly the kind of statement that is out of line. It is vague, and not accurate, not to mention just plain mean. You are free to disagree with my statements, present a point by point rebuttal, etc. This is over the top, as I said.

4) On complaining: I am simply trying to help ensure a more positive environment here. We don't need people coming in here and personally insulting people. My skin isn't so thin that I would go running to Jonathan at the first sign of flames. But, I let this go on for nearly a month. And, it wasn't just me. This type of behavior is not appropriate. The name calling ground the Election thread to a halt. This behavior degenerates threads and takes up space.

5) So we are clear, something HAS been done about the situation. I will not use names or reveal the action, but it has already been taken by the mods/admins. Obviously, someone else thought it was a problem too.

6) Are you really saying that ALL of my arguments are without merit? You are saying that ALL of them have been ""brought down". Come on.

Please read the following carefully. It could be taken the wrong way if skimmed:

Some of us have been here awhile. Some got here yesterday, so to speak. I'm NOT SUGGESTING those of us who have been here awhile are "better", in ANY way. What I AM SAYING is that I am frequently taken aback at the absolute unmitigated gall of some people that are fairly new here. They register, then within 30 days they are calling people stupid, running around like Mr. Big Shits (TM) starting 10,000 threads on one topic, etc. I mean, it takes one hell of a lot of balls to do those things, calling people names and what not. The mods have done a nice job of late keeping it under control, and I appreciate it greatly.

SPJ, your statement is exactly what I'm talking about. You just told someone that has spent two and a half years learning the rules, the unwritten ettiquette, participating in threads, etc to basically just GO HOME.
It's just insulting.

EDIT: I wouldn't have even posted SPJ's name, but he posted his statement for all to see, so I responded. Again, I am NOT saying those of us who have been here longer have more rights or should be treated differently. I am merely stating that it's laughable when someone who "just got here" starts telling everyone else they are dumb, whether directly or implicitly.

Thank you.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #12 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:


On complaining: I am simply trying to help ensure a more positive environment here. We don't need people coming in here and personally insulting people. <hr></blockquote>

Part of the problem is that your posts are not positive. Your posts are filled with capital letters and angry rants. This is why you of all people have been singled out by so many people in the community. You have a tendency to rant and you interpret posts unrealistically regulary. All these people would not be getting on your case if your posts weren't so agressive. Anyone whose ever read one post from you can see this.

[quote]
My skin isn't so thin that I would go running to Jonathan at the first sign of flames.<hr></blockquote>

You're joking, right? It seems like you have forgotten the Bush Dyslexicon thread. You didn't go running, but you certainly threatened...and all because you kept on responding to points no one was making. You have arguments with your own imagination and blame it on others, so you better expect people to say those things to you. The only other option for folks is to completely ignore your posts in Fireside Chat.

The only solution to Fireside Chat is to just not have it. The topics in it are necessarily going to bring about dramatic posts. But people seem to have a lot of fun. Most importantly, no one is losing a limb. These posts are just words on the screen. People should know to expect heated debate when in Fireside Chat, and if they feel insecure they can just go to the genius bar and act like an expert to boost the ego....
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 
Here again, I had prepared a point by point rebuttal of giant's post, but I scrapped it Why?

Because I am not going to repsond to someone who, in a discussion on personal attacks, actually MAKES a personal attack himself.


[quote]and all because you kept on responding to points no one was making. You have arguments with your own imagination and blame it on others, so you better expect people to say those things to you. <hr></blockquote>

Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #14 of 29
SDW, You crack me up. In the one thread I was arguing with you, you didn't really respond to what I was saying and yet had the nerve to call me a "jackass", then complain about the way people were treating you. Grow up.
post #15 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>
I hope you don't honestly believe that a debate on the internet is going to change one's feelings on the subject.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's a trite oversimplification of the issue.

SDW, I find it quite presumptuous of you to assume that I am a fairly new member. I have been registered since November 2001 under the name SJPSU, but have since dropped it to more accurately reflect my attendence at King's College rather than Penn State University. You may remember me from your infamous "My Statement to Nations that Hate the US" thread.

Look what I found in your profile:
Joined: \t11-13-2001. That is hardly "2 1/2 years." Of course I could be wrong since AI Servers go down sometimes.

You're right, I should not include "all" of your arguments since that's just not a logical thing to say. But I can say that a [i[clear majority[/i] of your initial and subsequent arguments and replies lack what I've said before.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: ShawnPatrickJoyce ]</p>
post #16 of 29
[quote]That's a trite oversimplification of the issue.<hr></blockquote>

It may be oversimplified but I find it to be the truth.

You're not going to make a Republican a Democrat or vice-versa, or make an Atheist a religious man or vice-versa. In fact, it's a rare occasion when you get someone's opinion to change. People are stubborn and will always be blind to the other person's 'facts' if their beliefs are strong enough. I'm speaking from way too many years of experience online watching these debates whether it be about politics, religion, or even Apple speculation or discussions of their policies.
post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
SPJ writes:

[quote]SDW, I find it quite presumptuous of you to assume that I am a fairly new member. I have been registered since November 2001 under the name SJPSU, <hr></blockquote>

Well, I never said you personally were new. But, that's still 22 months after me.

[quote] Look what I found in your profile:
Joined: 11-13-2001. That is hardly "2 1/2 years." Of course I could be wrong since AI Servers go down sometimes. <hr></blockquote>

I joined in February 2000. No offense, but if you had been here as long as Fran and I, you'd know there was a huge outage period (what, in 2001 I think?). Everyone lost their post counts and logins, etc. I had about 600-800 posts when it tanked.

[quote] SDW, You crack me up. In the one thread I was arguing with you, you didn't really respond to what I was saying and yet had the nerve to call me a "jackass", then complain about the way people were treating you. Grow up. <hr></blockquote>

Well, I think I did respond. If I didn't, then either I just missed the post or was busy with something else. I don't remember if I called you a jack ass. If I did, then frankly, I do seem to remember you deserving it. Nevertheless, I apologize. It is rare that I get to that point, but it can happen.

There is also a difference between responding to someone's behavior and flat-out calling an argument stupid, or even the aformentioned intelligence comments. I never do that. If I say an argument is "ridiculous" I back it up. Some don't. That's the point.

Look, I'm not getting into another flame fest with you guys. The personal attacks should stop. That's all. Heated debate is fine. Jokes are fine. Calling someone dumb isn't. That's all there is to it.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #18 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
I joined in February 2000. No offense, but if you had been here as long as Fran and I, you'd know there was a huge outage period (what, in 2001 I think?). Everyone lost their post counts and logins, etc. I had about 600-800 posts when it tanked.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I take offense because I specifically allowed for that possibility in my statement. This is exactly the sort of thing that many complain about. You simply do not listen! How pathetic it is to provide evidence to the opposition in a thread designed to vindicate yourself!
post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 
[quote]Look what I found in your profile:
Joined: 11-13-2001. That is hardly "2 1/2 years." Of course I could be wrong since AI Servers go down sometimes. <hr></blockquote>

That is what you posted before. Now, it sounds to me that you weren't sure if I may have lost my registration in a server outage. I saw that you allowed for the possibility, but it was quite obvious that you didn't know for sure. I was simply informing you of what happened. In any case, why would you feel the need to check my profile? Like I am lying? Come on.

What really gets me is your attitude. You actually think it is possible I am so stupid that I could miss your point entirely like that. OF COURSE I saw that you allowed for the possibility. Obviously, you weren't here to witness the server outage. I was simply telling you what happened. The boards were offline for like three months, perhaps two. But, you didn't know that. You thought you'd check my profile to see if I was lying.

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #20 of 29
actually....and sorry to jump in the fray....but a while back i stopped going to AppleOutsider because SDW2001 called me an idiot for my thoughts on the Bush/Gore election...pissed me off at the time and i thought it would be better to keep to the other forums instead of insulting him back.....guess i would have liked to see a different person complaining about the personal attacks, because i do think people should be more civil here...but i'm an old fart, not like the youngsters running around here....g

SDW2001
[quote] As for the idiot that posted on how "they" (the Bush administration) have been horrible for the economy:
You are a fool if you think the Bush administration has had anything to do with the downturn. A plain and common fool. Perhaps with a funny hat <hr></blockquote>

perhaps it was meant to be funny at the time...but not really supportive of your current complaint....g

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #21 of 29
SDW, you don't seem to be doing a very good job at making yourself appear to be a victim.
post #22 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
I was simply informing you of what happened.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hardly.

Let's look at that statement again, shall we?
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
I joined in February 2000. No offense, but if you had been here as long as Fran and I, you'd know there was a huge outage period (what, in 2001 I think?). Everyone lost their post counts and logins, etc. I had about 600-800 posts when it tanked.<hr></blockquote>

"Simply informing" me would not have made such a supposedly objective statement personal, as you did quite effectively.

"No offense, but if you had been here as long as Fran and I, you'd know there was a huge outage period."

What do I have to do with there being a power outage? The power outage occurred separate from my knowledge, so your informing me should be treated that way. Additionally, you play the game here of inclusive vs. exclusive by putting Fran and you in opposition to me (insider vs. outsider). Furthermore, doesn't the inclusion of an "offense disclaimer" signal something peculiar about something? Why would straightforward information in the context of our discussion require one? There's no way I could have reasonably deduced this if you just stated the facts ad rem. So, no, you didn't "simply inform" me, you personally attacked me in your own ways.

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: ShawnPatrickJoyce ]</p>
post #23 of 29
Wow its amazing people's fellings get hurt so easiler. More yet that people feel the need to complain to mods. I understand not wanting to be called names and stuff but this is life, learn to deal with it! You were probably the taddle tale that told the teacher when somone called u a retard or something! (notice mods how I have never called anyone a bad name and even in this thread I didn't call this guy anything harsh)

*Although I certinly implied it!
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post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 
Oh, I see! We are going to make this into a "he said, she said" kind of thing. We are going to go back over months of postings and pull any shred of "evidence" we can find.

Well, I'm not playing that game. I'll apologize for the comment you quoted. However, notice I didn't directly post your name in there. Nevertheless, it was a little over zelaous. Fair enough. And yes, it was supposed to be humorous.

The problem comes when there are consistent insults. Had the problem not been ongoing, I wouldn't have sought action. I posted earlier that I have never sought action, depsite previous heated debate. This is because any insults hurled have been isolated. Over the last few weeks, this hasn't been the case.

giant:

[quote]SDW, you don't seem to be doing a very good job at making yourself appear to be a victim. <hr></blockquote>

That's because it isn't my intent. Let me ask you, what is the point of me painting myself as the victim? What would I have to gain by this? I started this thread after and e-mail to Jonathan to bring the issue to attention. There was no other reason.

SPJ:

I prefaced the statement with "no offense" because I wanted to make it clear I WASN'T trying to offend you. Plain and simple. Don't try to reverse the meaning. It wasn't supposed to be sarcastic. On the inclusivity thing, I did in fact intend that meaning. You questioned how long I have been here based on my profile:

[quote]Look what I found in your profile:
Joined: 11-13-2001. That is hardly "2 1/2 years." Of course I could be wrong since AI Servers go down sometimes. <hr></blockquote>

I think a little inclusivity vs. exclusivity is warranted, based on your accusatory tone. You weren't here. And yet, you have the balls to question me on this? I don't even even see the motivation to question my claim, unless it is a desperate attempt to 'make a score" on your part.

We need to put this to an end now. I contacted Jonathan because of repeated insults on my and others' intelligence. He responded to my satisfaction. End of story. I will also do my best to refrain from such attacks, though believe any such behavior on my part is "few and far between".
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #25 of 29
cool...then perhaps we can close this thread and put it behind us...this thread could easily get nasty and i think it has served it's purpose....g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #26 of 29
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by thegelding:
<strong>cool...then perhaps we can close this thread and put it behind us...this thread could easily get nasty and i think it has served it's purpose....g</strong><hr></blockquote>

agreed.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #27 of 29
What?
What?
What'd I miss?
A fight?

Damn. I always miss it when the kiddies fight.

Darn it all.

Well, back to the productive post forums....hee hee

D
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Oldest Member of AI (Jan 99) until JRC snaps to his senses and starts posting again. (the blackout borked my join date)
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post #28 of 29
[quote] Some of us have been here awhile. Some got here yesterday, so to speak. I'm NOT SUGGESTING those of us who have been here awhile are "better", in ANY way. What I AM SAYING is that I am frequently taken aback at the absolute unmitigated gall of some people that are fairly new here. They register, then within 30 days they are calling people stupid, running around like Mr. Big Shits (TM) starting 10,000 threads on one topic, etc. I mean, it takes one hell of a lot of balls to do those things, calling people names and what not. <hr></blockquote>

Dearest SDW2001, sweet as you may be, the freshness of your breath as dewdrops in May, the firmness of your figure Renaissance-like, I nonetheless feel offended by your words.
post #29 of 29
Nothing is more entertaining, than a pissing contest between intellectual type people. A whole lot of point/counter-point being thrown around, but no progress being made.

I cannot honestly understand why people get offended by peoples opinions. Worse yet, is being offended over peoples opinions, on a 17" screen in front of them.

This reminds me of people who would picket a radio station in Dallas because they found the shows offensive. I say rather than complain, change the channel and put your energy to bigger and better things.

Just my opinion, most likely overlooked since I only have 20 posts on these boards.
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