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post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
ive suggested this before but it seems to have
been ignored so heres another try
(or maybe the thread was lost during conversion)

lets get 2 new forums online

1.Gaming
2.Developers

mods....think carefully about this before dissmissing it...the idea is to attract new people
with fresh ideas otherwise the whole point of a forum is moot when theres no healthy discussion.

to see what i mean goto forums.gentoo.org
its one of the best forums i have ever used & the
discussion is always lively & worth following.

thanks for reading
post #2 of 33
nothing against your idea, but I think there aren't that much developers around here...
post #3 of 33
and when AI had gaming it was pretty empty.
post #4 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by Defiant:
<strong>nothing against your idea, but I think there aren't that much developers around here...</strong><hr></blockquote>

True, but then if we had a forum, it might attract some. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
post #5 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:
<strong>

True, but then if we had a forum, it might attract some. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

that's true too <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
post #6 of 33
Thread Starter 
ok why not try it for say 6 months & see
it doesnt really cost anything to create 2 new
forums.
post #7 of 33
This is a good idea, I plan on (eventually) learning Objective-C and the Cocoa API, so it would also be a good place to go for help.

Posting from a wintel machine at school (one of two total that the school has.) Windows 98...just spent the last half hour getting this thing to connect.

post #8 of 33
the funny thing is that no mod or admin replied <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
post #9 of 33
PHP forum. `nuff said
''i'm an extremist, i have to deal with my own extreme personality and i walk the fine line of wanting to die and wanting to be the ruler of all.''
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''i'm an extremist, i have to deal with my own extreme personality and i walk the fine line of wanting to die and wanting to be the ruler of all.''
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post #10 of 33
I'll reply

The problem is that when people think "Gaming" or "Developers", they don't think "AppleInsider.com". You can argue that if we had these two forums, that maybe people would. However, the problem is that we don't really have the 'community' to support these either.

Think about it, how do we even attract new users? I honestly have no idea, and I'd really like to know. When AI had a front page and was publishing rumors, this in and of itself attracted more members, because we had content on the site to "support" that. Ever since front end content stopped, the forums have lived on, but they haven't really changed much, and continue to attract similar types of people that they did before.

That said, were I to go somewhere for "Developers", I'd probably start with a newsgroup, or go to a more technical site like Ars. In terms of gaming, well, there are plenty of good mac gaming sites that cover this, not to mention that fact that the mac gaming market is so minute these days. Sure, it doesn't cost us anything to add two new forums, but if they don't get posted in often (and I have a hard time believing that these two will) members will complain, those forums won't get a lot of traffic, etceteras, and that raises a host of other issues... like if nobody is using these new forums, why have them? Why not remove them to make the other forums stand out more in the list? And so on...

I think it would be an excellent idea if we had the community resources available to back it up with. The fact of the matter is that we don't, and even when the new front page comes online, it will only aide in attracting more rumor mongers to the community.

it's not that we just don't think about your suggestions and decide to dismiss them out of principle (although Jonathan might, he is ruling dictator). A lot of the things you guys suggest have been tossed around before. We really do think about these things, so don't assume that we don't

That said, if you still feel strongly about adding those two forums, and you can make a strong case as to why this community would benefit from them, and why you think those forums would even get enough traffic to sustain themselves even in six months time, I'm all ears. Convince us, and we'll experiment, but we need more than a, "Hey, this would be pretty neat" proposal
post #11 of 33
Jack gets the "Replier Of The Week Award" Congratulations !
post #12 of 33
Thread Starter 
not to mention the longest post award
ok well im a systems engineer /dba so os's & db's are my area of interest hence the suggestion
games is something everyone plays or atleast
i hope they do.the state of mac gaming sucks
so they more people participate the better the
chance that the gaming companies will take note.

out of all the mac boards ive seen ever since
buying one this one seems to be the least anti pc.
but it also seems slightly overmoderated...

also noticed a significant % of people are gfx guys/girls so if you want the platform to be widespread you need to open up.
true people can go elsewhere for info, but its precisely this "elitist" perception that makes good developers shy away from osx.
i code on linux & theres a wealth of info & help available. for the mac currently oreilly's making a great effort.

like i said earlier...doesnt cost a dime to test
new forums. & while we are at it why not have a
musicians forum too so people who make music
can pitch in with help & patches.

the forum is stagnating (or its my eyesight
i've run a forum before & its incredibly hard to
keep it fresh so people keep coming back.
eventually people just leave when theres no new
infusion of ideas...

thus endeth my 2c rant
post #13 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by M3D Jack:
<strong>...When AI had a front page... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Whadda ya mean, when AI had a front page? Dincha hear? <a href="http://www.appleinsider.com/" target="_blank">It's back!</a> Read about it on AtAT, meself.

Anyways, personally, I like the thought. As a wanna-be dev, I'd spend time both seeking answers and offering advice to others, if a Developers forum existed. In fact, if such a board existed, there are a couple questions regarding Java, and Apples Dev Tools, that I could ask. Hell, couldn't be any worse than Apple's own KB. I've posted there before with little or no effect. And one more place for budding Apple developers to seek advice from can't be all that bad an idea.

Just my opinion on the matter, for what it's worth.

(tig)

[ 10-27-2002: Message edited by: The Grimace ]</p>
"We do not inherit the land from our ancestors"
"We borrow it from our children"
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"We do not inherit the land from our ancestors"
"We borrow it from our children"
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post #14 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by madmax559:
<strong>not to mention the longest post award
ok well im a systems engineer /dba so os's & db's are my area of interest hence the suggestion
games is something everyone plays or atleast
i hope they do.the state of mac gaming sucks
so they more people participate the better the
chance that the gaming companies will take note.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True, but we had a gaming forum, back when this board was doing a lot better (it's amazing what a front page and a working, stable board will do for that...). There was nothing much going on in it. To the extent that any game developer sizes up the market by looking for gaming forums, an empty one isn't going to look much better than no forum at all.

M3D Jack made a good point: This forum has succeeded to the extent that it has by being relatively focused. People come here for particular things, and we provide those things with a minimum of distraction. One thing I can tell you for certain is that, if there isn't much discussion, fragmenting it into smaller pieces doesn't help. There has to be a critical mass of people in the same place before you get a robust discussion forum going. I've seen a lot of would-be communities die because they started out with as many topics as MacNN now has, and not enough members to keep one of those topics going.

Ordinarily, we create new forums the same way USENET creates new (non-alt) newsgroups: Once the number of threads on a particular subtopic threatens to drown out all the other subthreads, we look to see if it should get its own forum. This doesn't happen often, and frankly there aren't enough posts about either development or gaming to justify forums dedicated to those topics. Even MacNN's developer forums are relatively slow, and that board is much bigger than ours. On the other hand, the Apple and Omni and StepWise mailing lists are busy.

[quote]<strong>out of all the mac boards ive seen ever since buying one this one seems to be the least anti pc. but it also seems slightly overmoderated...</strong><hr></blockquote>

AI has always prided itself on being relatively temperate, articulate and clean. That was Mark's vision for it. There have been some recent exceptions, but basically this place has never been a free for all, by design. If you have a particular, concrete complaint about moderation, feel free to PM me, or Jonathan, or the moderator in question. We're all reasonable people volunteering our time to make this forum helpful and enjoyable.

[quote]<strong>also noticed a significant % of people are gfx guys/girls so if you want the platform to be widespread you need to open up.
true people can go elsewhere for info, but its precisely this "elitist" perception that makes good developers shy away from osx.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's nothing elitist about that, frankly, anymore than there's something elitist about the paucity of graphics people on the Omni OS X developer list. Kickaha, M3D Jack, myself, Brad and Belle have all done development work, or are full time developers, so we're not at all hostile to the subject. It's just that there aren't enough other people here to keep a development forum alive.

[quote]<strong>i code on linux & theres a wealth of info & help available. for the mac currently oreilly's making a great effort.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is for the Mac as well. You just have to look in the right places. This isn't one of the right places.

[quote]<strong>like i said earlier...doesnt cost a dime to test new forums. & while we are at it why not have a musicians forum too so people who make music can pitch in with help & patches.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It does cost to create new forums: They add clutter and break up discussion groups that might already be small. There are <a href="http://www.osxaudio.com/forums/index.php?maddi=b845548db09f562a7e643b915782b51e" target="_blank">other forums</a> that handle that need better than we can.

You identify the real problem here:

[quote]<strong>i've run a forum before & its incredibly hard to keep it fresh so people keep coming back. eventually people just leave when theres no new infusion of ideas...</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is true. So, there has to be a way to infuse ideas. OSXAudio.com has its front page, with plenty of articles and reviews to fuel a (small) forum. AI has published rumors now and again, and fortunately it was able to generate a community large enough (and well-connected enough) to continue after the articles stopped coming. We've had other problems, like a long period of instability followed by a months-long blackout, followed by not being linked from MacNN at the same time that we couldn't accept new registrations, etc. Now we have a new owner, a front page, and new users can register again. The front page will (try to ) publish rumors, so people will go there looking for rumors, and they'll come here to discuss them. Therefor, to avoid the problem you've identified, we should focus on rumors, and provide other forums on an as-needed basis. AI isn't a developer, musician or gaming resource - it isn't even a design resource, the number of designers here notwithstanding - so it won't really help anyone to try to address those niches. There's simply no content to fuel discussion of those issues at AI, and no-one comes here looking for them.

If you were a developer interested in OS X, would you come to "AppleInsider" to do your research? Or at all? As opposed to any of the (very nice) resources targeted specifically at developers by the likes of Apple, OmniGroup, Stepwise, O'Reilly, iDevGames, MacDevCenter, and the venerable comp.sys.mac.programmer.* hierarchy on USENET?

All that said, keep in mind that if there's a need, we will create a forum. We are not ideologically opposed to there being a Developers forum here. So, post development-related topics in OS X or Software as appropriate, and see if you can't get something going.
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post #15 of 33
hey Jack !

gimme that award ! James gets him now !

no, don't cry ! I said no ! ah ! stop it ! the people are already looking ! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

thanks amorph for taking the time to explain this to us. thank you.
post #16 of 33
The one thing that makes this a possibility is the ability to create sub-forums within vBulletin.

Aka: we could make a 'gaming' subforum inside Software.

Might be something to look into, if there were enough threads to fill it.

Again, Amorph really articulated it far better than I ever could have.
post #17 of 33
Amorph: spot-on as usual.

Regarding a forum specifically for gaming, we first should look at the number of threads already spread about for gaming. Currently, I see only 4 threads in the past 20 days about games. Is that enough to really warrant making a new forum?

The same goes for a Developers forum. Many of us have developed software for Mac OS and Mac OS X. Yet, there are other far better sites which specialize specifically in addressing developers.
post #18 of 33
where would one post wantings of developings now? <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
post #19 of 33
I would enjoy the developers forum.
couldn't general talk and outsider be in the same?
# chmod 777
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post #20 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by TiHack:
<strong>couldn't general talk and outsider be in the same?</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't think so. General Discussion and AppleOutsider serve two very different purposes. The former is for general tech industry discussion whereas the latter is anything *except* tech, but rather the "real world" subjects.

AppleOutsider and Fireside chat, on the other hand, could easily be merged back together.

[ 10-28-2002: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
post #21 of 33
[quote]AppleOutsider and Fireside chat, on the other hand, could easily be merged back together.
<hr></blockquote>

NOOOOOOOOO!!!! please no....i love appleoutsider and visit it often....i loathe fireside chat and avoid it like the plague it is.....now i know you as mods will make all the decision, but for the sake of my very shaky sanity, please please please do not merge these two forums....g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #22 of 33
a quote from Brad in the Trolls post:
[quote] murbot is right. In fact, we've also accidentally created a bit of a breeding grounds for trolls in the form of the Fireside Chat forum. Fortunately, they're easy to avoid if you just steer clear of FC altogether. <hr></blockquote>

see, more proof that FC and AO should not be merged.....g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #23 of 33
Fireside seems more flaming than outsider.
Maybe doing the division all from zero there could bring some more fresher ideas?
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post #24 of 33
We are aware that Fireside Chat is full of crap and trolls and flamers. *If* it will be merged again with AppleOutsider, much stricter rules and regulations will be enforced so that things don't get out of control again. Trust me, you are not the only ones disappointed with how Fireside turned out.

We (the mods and admins) have discussed this at length and hope to have a workable solution by the time we are able to import to vBulletin.
post #25 of 33
To keep things in perspective, Fireside Chat contains issues that impact us all (gun control, religion, the universe, free speech, terrorism etc). I'd suggest it's Apple Outsider that is full of crap (people who stink, what do you wear whilst sleeping, signs that you're really really drunk etc). Important topics inevitably give rise to strong opinions and conflicting views, which is why they are often moved from Apple Outsider to Fireside Chat in the first place. I guess one solution would be to ban discussion on controversial topics altogether, leaving us to contemplate life's true mysteries, such as whether Powerdoc really does wear jaguar jim jams to bed.
post #26 of 33
You're right and you're wrong. The issues discussed in Fireside chat are important, however, Fireside Chat quickly evolved beyond the original intentions.

At the time AppleOutsider was flooded with religious threads, and these threads were, at the time, degrading into flame wars between 'believers' and 'non-believers' if you will; most people here seem not to believe in a god, and they're not afraid to tell the people that do that it is the case.

This became a problem, and it was difficult to moderate. Members were also upset about all the religious and political discussions in AO at the time. This is a perfect example of how a majority of threads of a particular topic warrant the creation of another forum; we decided to create Fireside Chat for religious/political discussions. Unfortunately, it quickly got out of hand, and admittedly, was initially moderated poorly by us moderators and administrators, and was not given the TLC necessary to grow it into a respectable forum.

As such, some of us hoped we could get the people who wanted to flame the religious and political threads to do it in there, however, moderators take the approach that anything religious/political should go into Fireside Chat... and because "that's just where those threads go". It isn't because we want those threads to turn into a flame war, but that's where we have become accustomed to putting those discussions, and FC has degraded to the point where EVERYTHING in there in a flame war.

This is precisely why, as Brad mentioned earlier, that we are discussing alternatives to FC for the vB transition. We know these discussions are important, and we don't want to censor them. We also don't want them to turn into a pointless flame war. So we're taking the time to do it right this time, something that we, regrettably, didn't do when we created Fireside Chat.
post #27 of 33
Thread Starter 
why not rename fireside chat to the ....

Y0u suck !@$~!2 forum

no one else has a forum name like that
post #28 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by madmax559:
<strong>why not rename fireside chat to the ....

Y0u suck !@$~!2 forum

no one else has a forum name like that </strong><hr></blockquote>

If we did that, we'd have to rename Future Hardware to "You smoke *(%&@", and it'd be all downhill from there.
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Original music:
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Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
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"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

Original music:
The Mayflies - Black earth Americana. Now on iTMS!
Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
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post #29 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>If we did that, we'd have to rename Future Hardware to "You smoke *(%&@", and it'd be all downhill from there. </strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Chicanery.
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Chicanery.
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post #30 of 33
Thread Starter 
DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPE RS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....
DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPE RS....

whoops i ran outta breath

[you also mucked with the formatting of the thread, so I took the liberty of breaking up that line. -Amorph]

[ 10-29-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
post #31 of 33
[quote]Originally posted by madmax559:
<strong>DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS.... DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....
DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPERS....DEVELOPE RS....

whoops i ran outta breath

[you also mucked with the formatting of the thread, so I took the liberty of breaking up that line. -Amorph]

[ 10-29-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Developers = You chose the red pill @%$#
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post #32 of 33
So I took a deep breath, exhaled slowly, and went ahead and started a <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=002954" target="_blank">Developers thread</a> under General Discussions. Posted a real, honest-to-goodness dev question as well. Lets see where it goes...

(tig)
"We do not inherit the land from our ancestors"
"We borrow it from our children"
Reply
"We do not inherit the land from our ancestors"
"We borrow it from our children"
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post #33 of 33
Games? Humbug!

I cannae really support the idea o' the games forum as it would simply distract people frae their work and encourage frivolity. Games - being the opium o' the masses - can surely hae nae place in the lives o' the powerful and sternly serious Mac user, wha would raither spend his or her time in productive word-processorly monochrome pursuits. Games, my freends, ruin the mind and scare the horses. Better by far tae polish the brasses and scrub the fire engine or sell poppies from a tray.

And as for software development! Hah! Software development ye say! Let me tell ye brothers that if games are bad software development is thrice as trimuginous. Is there no' plenty o' software as it is? Software = bugs. Bug fixes = new bugs. Bugs = Bugs, bugs and mare bugs. And what dae bugs equate to? Loss o' productivity, frustration and untimely death. Mark my words - games and sotware development are the tooth decay o' morality and civilisation. Humbug!

I therefore propose a lugubriously librarianesque forum tae counterbalance the levity elsewhere and promote some staid sensibility and sound habits.
Heedrum Ho
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Heedrum Ho
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