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PPC 970 In Next Revision of PM Now Confirmed By MacWhispers - Page 4

post #121 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Well, if the 'cost of entry' isn't stopping Apple getting customers then how come apple themselves cut price of their 'power'Macs (by 200£ on the low end and 700£ on the top end)? And have indicated they will do so again.

You're articulate Amorph. I'll give you that

But you're dead WRONG(!) on the cheaper tower. You were proven WRONG when Apple cut the price by 200£. And you'll be proven wrong again if Apple cut prices further.

Not if they also drop the prices on the consumer line. Why? Because that would allow Apple to drop PowerMac prices without muddying the lineup.

As for the price drop: First, prices drop. The current pro machines don't cost as much as the 9600MP, or the 840av, or the IIfx, or the Lisa. Second, if you're offering a line whose appeal hinges on performance, and performance starts to stagnate due to a reason you can't control (in the medium term) what else can you do? The last round of price drops only affirms my point that the PowerMacs need power - and since Apple can't offer more power, they have no choice but to cut price to make the price/performance ratio attractive.

Apple has dropped prices on a line and then raised them back up to more standard (for Apple) levels before. They've done it with PowerMacs and PowerBooks both. The 970 will allow them to sell machines that people will be willing to pay for. I'm not going to predict the exact pricing structure, because I'm not sure that we'll see the current PowerMac, only with a different chip stuffed inside. But don't forget that Apple is targeting the high-end video and 3D market. A $3500 Apple workstation would cost 1/3 as much as the workstations they'd replace, for a machine that could replace both the UNIX workstation and the PC beside it (for running office apps). I'm confident that Apple will offer a nice price spread.

Oh, and I never said gamers were a small market. In fact, they're a bigger market than the gaming industry currently addresses. I said the hardcore gamer market, and you can't leave that word out without radically changing what I meant. The majority of games that most people enjoy don't need cutting edge hardware. A great many don't need more than trivial video acceleration (card games, the various Yahoo! and Flash games, the Sims, etc.).

Quote:
I don't think it muddies the product line at all. The only problem with the Cube was it plain old vanilla wasn't cheap enough. Sure, Amorph could afford one (and I hope you're still enjoying it... ) BUT alot couldn't. And that wasn't for not wanting one.

Heh. I had to stretch myself to get it, and I'm enjoying it very much, thanks. But this is my argument, repeated. The Cube had a very real appeal, and a very real market, but the pricing structure made no sense — especially with the PowerMacs sitting right next to them at a lower price! So it sold to people like me who really, really didn't want some big beast of a machine with a lot of useless (to me) expandability roaring nearby. Priced well, and with a clearly defined place in the lineup, a small, silent Apple workstation would fly off the shelves. Note that it's not a cheap, expandable tower, though: It's a small, quiet, reasonably priced machine. In fact, if Apple goes the way I hope they're going, that will be the PowerMac, and things like PCI slots and carriages for internal drives will be available as external chassis.

Quote:
When Apple themselves come out and say they have to address the 'power'Mac issue, they are clearly admitting that cost and performance do matter.

Cost and performance, yes. So if you don't have the performance, you have to offer a low cost. If you do have the performance, people will pay for it. Not as much as they did back in the bad old days of $10,000 black and white machines, but they will pay. $1000 difference in initial price is a week's work at the utmost for a professional.

Quote:
Most decent PC towers can be got for a grand. You don't have to spend thousands anymore. Apple are facing up to this reality (fingers crossed as he says this...) can Amorph?

Amorph looks at the much more than $1000 Dell OptiPlex sitting by his knee, with its endless quirks, its severe limitations and its sheath of dull, cheap plastic, and shakes his head sadly.
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post #122 of 160
Amorph seem to be hoping for a Cube II with 970 cpu and expansion through external boxes. External boxes as mode of expansion brings back the memory of the 6100/60
1.The video connector incompatible with Apple computers, this in combination with a VGA monitor forced me to use two adapors in series resulting in a footlong rod behind the computer that would not bend
2.Crummy nubus. I needed both a nubus riser adapor and to move the HD to the CD bay to have room for the frame grabber card.
3.Thus an external CDROM
4. External HD
5. External ZIP drive
6. External HD number 2

The rat nest I had of computer, monitor, 4 external boxes, 6 power cords and so on learned me one thing. Either get a computer that I newer upgrade or one that can fit the upgrades on the inside.

What ever marked the Cube&flatpanel monitor had wedged between the towers and the CRT iMac has been reduced by the introduction flat panel iMac
post #123 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by DrBoar
Amorph seem to be hoping for a Cube II with 970 cpu and expansion through external boxes. External boxes as mode of expansion brings back the memory of the 6100/60
1.The video connector incompatible with Apple computers, this in combination with a VGA monitor forced me to use two adapors in series resulting in a footlong rod behind the computer that would not bend
2.Crummy nubus. I needed both a nubus riser adapor and to move the HD to the CD bay to have room for the frame grabber card.
3.Thus an external CDROM
4. External HD
5. External ZIP drive
6. External HD number 2

The rat nest I had of computer, monitor, 4 external boxes, 6 power cords and so on learned me one thing. Either get a computer that I newer upgrade or one that can fit the upgrades on the inside.

In other words, Apple didn't get it right with the 6100.

Those all look like soluble problems. Slot-wise, Apple's on the industry-standard bus right now, and I can't imagine a PowerMac incompatible with an Apple monitor coming out of Cupertino these days. That certainly was not a problem with the Cube. As to the rest: In my post I mentioned a carriage for internal drives, so that you could have a nice box with, say, two 5.25 inch and three 3.5 inch bays, and stick in whatever you prefer. One plug would suffice for all of them. It would be like a little SAN. A similar chassis would suffice for PCI, so that you wouldn't have to get the more expensive FW peripherals if you didn't want to.

And, of course, you could buy multiple CPUs and cluster them together without all the additional space and noise of a second tower.

Quote:
What ever marked the Cube&flatpanel monitor had wedged between the towers and the CRT iMac has been reduced by the introduction flat panel iMac

Exactly. Which is why I'm positioning this as a replacement for the PowerMac. The only way I can see to make this work is to have the base machine address one market (small, quiet, powerful machine with large-monitor and multiple-monitor capabilities), and handle the market that needs internal expansion with additional hardware. If the additional hardware hooked up with FireWire, it might allow PowerBooks — and iMacs, in a pinch — to be used as full-blown workstations as well.

Perhaps actual, honest-to-goodness towers could take up the very high end.
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post #124 of 160
DAMN YOU AMORPH!!! Towers for everyone! Vive la revolucion!

Though what you propose isn't too bad. I'd rather see a cube replace the eMac at the same prices as the iMac, and offer consumers a choice. Integrated LCD or headless, expandable, slightly faster, machines (w/o monitor.)

There's no point to the eMac/iMac. By not integrating that huge 17" tube Apple could make a small box that takes standard expansion cards and make it cheaper than the current eMac. Those two models should shadow each other and provide the consumer with some choice. The AIO market is virtually completely saturated, it isn't winning new buyers, it's a good option for some people, but most of those people already own them and only b uy more when it comes time to replace them. They need a model that can attract NEW BUYERS, it's pretty obvious what that is.
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post #125 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
DAMN YOU AMORPH!!! Towers for everyone! Vive la revolucion!

But that isn't the revolution, comrade, it's the status quo. DOWN WITH THE STATUS QUO!

Quote:
There's no point to the eMac/iMac.

Tell that to the educational market, which has been demanding large, sturdy monoliths from Apple for years now. Remember the "molar" PowerMac G3 and the big educational Performa? There is a real demand within that market for small-footprint, childproof machines with CRTs (LCDs are considered fragile and expensive).

And, as I've said, my computerphobic mom loves the way her iMac CRT just tucks itself attractively and unobtrusively into a corner and runs silently.
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post #126 of 160
Yeah, I didn't mean that AIO's are completely pointless, but there's no need for two of them. I doubt schools worry too much about the fragility of LCD's, I see more and more labs filled with 15 and 17" DELL LCD panels. It's a cost thing, how long can the CRT hang on? But anyway, I think one AIO model is enough and that if the intention of a second consumer/business/edu model is that it reach more potential customers, then something in the cube/headless/Shuttle vein is in order.

In such an arrangement, onw could see DP towers strecthing from 1500-3500 and a CHOICE of SP eCube/iMac from 899/999-1500/1600.

There's just no way that there would be any cannibalizing (as people so foolishly put it)

Want power and expansion? Buy PM
Want a simple idiot proof AIO? Buy iMac
Want features and flexibility at a decent price without the need for the ultimate high end DP power? Buy an eCube

PS, did you format my quote (bold italics etc etc) or does vBulletin do this automagically? If so, nice.
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post #127 of 160
Quote:
Amorph seem to be hoping for a Cube II with 970 cpu

He's not the only one!!!

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #128 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
He's not the only one!!!

Lemon Bon Bon

He certainly isnt...

PPC 970, 5.1 sound-output, 1 8x AGP slot, speed-ass bus, no PCI (One if there's room, which there isnt. Neither the need, since superior sound has been adressed) = Me and my brother takes one each, we're hardcore gamers and mac addicts.
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post #129 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Yeah, I didn't mean that AIO's are completely pointless, but there's no need for two of them. I doubt schools worry too much about the fragility of LCD's, I see more and more labs filled with 15 and 17" DELL LCD panels.

In K-12 schools? If so, they'll learn better before long.

The iMac CRT is pointless long term, but for now it's a way for Apple to offer a sub-$500 (in large quantities!) machine to educational customers.

Quote:
PS, did you format my quote (bold italics etc etc) or does vBulletin do this automagically? If so, nice.

I formatted it manually, although I have a sneaking suspicion that vB handles nested formatting tags much more sanely than UBB did...
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post #130 of 160
[hillbilly] This here newfangled vBulletin thang is prreeetty spankin cool! [Hillbilly/]

Yes, yes... that's enough.

If Apple pulls some "G4 DP 1.67ghz" thing, that will be too bad for them. But I am confident that Al will have enough wits too help Apple... I mentioned something in the NAB thread about this, but it is quite strange that FC Pro 4 is rumored to come out prior to the 970, considering that FC Pro is gonna be a killer app on a 64 bit Mac. Just food for thought...albeit off-subject muchies.

EDIT: AL GORE, not Apple Insider. Al and AI look a lot the same...8)
post #131 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Don't worry, children!This is os10geek in disguise!

What, you don't think saying the exact same thing in your first 3 posts and the blatant overuse of smilies wouldn't have tipped us off?
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post #132 of 160
First post

More rumors. From IGM: PowerPC 970 Macs - DP 2.3GHz, SP 1.8, 1.4GHz

http://www.insanelygreatmac.com/news.php?id=1880

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post #133 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
First post

More rumors. From IGM: PowerPC 970 Macs - DP 2.3GHz, SP 1.8, 1.4GHz

http://www.insanelygreatmac.com/news.php?id=1880


Dual 2.3Ghz?? That would be SWEET. But that machine would be hotter than the 4th of July!

Apple would take the performance crown this year with that top end machine.
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post #134 of 160
SPEC2000 int-fp per CPU nota bene
PowerPC 970 Macs -
DP 2.3GHz 1195--1343
SP 1.8 GHz 937--1051
SP1.4GHz 739--817

MOT G4 does:
@ 1.4 GHz 418--248

and
Pentium IV
@ 3.06 GHz 1032--1092

A new low end on par with the current top of the line in SMP int and way better in everyting else. And a high end that is pentium killer

The Midrange does look like the odd man out. Pretty good with performance like a 2.8 GHz P4 but not really much better than a 1.4

SP 1.4 DP 1.4 and DP 2.3 would be sweeter\

Any news about a post G4 CPU is good news The question is mor about how good it is, like or just
post #135 of 160
Yeah they'd probably pad the 1.8Ghz midrange with RAM and HD. There's not much to differentiate the two. Hell I'd love to have a 1.4Ghz at $1399
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post #136 of 160
DP 2.3GHz 1195--1343
SP 1.8 GHz 937--1051
SP1.4GHz 739--817

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post #137 of 160
With 1.4ghz SP in the low-end PowerMac, what can we expect when the 970 enters the iMac line?

Fast = 1.2
Faster = 1.4
Ultimate = 1.4 plus loads of ram, bigger HD and superdrive
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post #138 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac


More rumors. From IGM: PowerPC 970 Macs - DP 2.3GHz, SP 1.8, 1.4GHz




Seems kind of a wide range of speeds.
post #139 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Nitzer


Seems kind of a wide range of speeds.

I would have thought that

SP 1.4
SP 1.8
DP 1.8
DP 2.3

would be a more Apple-consistent lineup
It wouldn't invalidate whats been suggested.

My real question is what else is going on the board

2 x FW800?
Serial ATA?
Dolby 5.1?
Optical Audio Out?
Quantum Torpedos?
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post #140 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Nitzer


Seems kind of a wide range of speeds.

Actually, the original Macbidouille report stated single 1.3 Ghz, and not 1.4 Ghz.
That makes the diffrence a bit larger..
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post #141 of 160
From IGM:
"Analysis: Interestingly, MacBidouille reports that Apple will make display models of PPC 970 Macs available at the time of introduction, although orders will not be filled for 6-8 weeks. Generally, display models are usually available only when a model is in stock. This may represent a slightly different approach by Apple, as consumers generally wait weeks for new models to arrive after they've ordered. Anything is better than anticipation - and no fulfillment."



When they say "display models", do they mean models you can try out in an Apple-store, or models they will show developers at WWDC?
Wouldnt it cannibalize PowerMac sales, if you could feel the power of the brand new PowerMac, but couldnt buy or order one for another 6 to 8 weeks? If they do this, they can wave G4 PowerMacs sales goodbye.
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post #142 of 160
Powermac sales are already on life support.

If Apple announced the pending release of PPC 970 Powermacs and simultaneously announced huge $300-600 reductions in the current line) reductions on current hardware I think they'd be fine. People love deals.

This is going to be a very different WWDC.
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post #143 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Powermac sales are already on life support.

If Apple announced the pending release of PPC 970 Powermacs and simultaneously announced huge $300-600 reductions in the current line) reductions on current hardware I think they'd be fine. People love deals.

This is going to be a very different WWDC.

I agree, but is that a better strategy than accepting orders for the 970 PM at the same time. I know I would hit the "buy now" button faster than you can say ...
Maybe twice even
If the G4 received a big enough price drop, they would get rid of them anyway.
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post #144 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
I agree, but is that a better strategy than accepting orders for the 970 PM at the same time. I know I would hit the "buy now" button faster than you can say ...
Maybe twice even
If the G4 received a big enough price drop, they would get rid of them anyway.

It wouldn't be the first time that Apple have dumped excess stock in the landfill...didn't they have to do it with excess PowerBook G3 stocks somewhere around the move from Lombard to the Bronze KB Version?...
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post #145 of 160
Hell Apple. Become a little Altruistic and sell the Powermacs to the Education channel for pennies on the dollar. If you're going to take a loss then make sure it's promoting your future in some way.
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post #146 of 160
Thread Starter 
The PPC 970 rumors get better and better. Lets hope that MacBidouille is right.

At this speed, the rumors will be saying that the PPC 970 will be hitting speeds of 3 Ghz, then a couple of days later 4, then 5.
post #147 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by robster
It wouldn't be the first time that Apple have dumped excess stock in the landfill...didn't they have to do it with excess PowerBook G3 stocks somewhere around the move from Lombard to the Bronze KB Version?...

I don't know about the PowerBook G3, but we all know how the Lisa ended up at the Logan Landfill in Utah in 1989
They better do something more constructive with the remaining machines this time. The PowerMac G4 does at least have some third party software available
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post #148 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
DP 2.3GHz 1195--1343
SP 1.8 GHz 937--1051
SP1.4GHz 739--817



And keep in mind that SPEC doesn't take into account multiple processors, if it did those numbers would be about:

DP 2.3 GHz 2300 -- 2700

Not that I believe the rumour in question.
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post #149 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac OS X Addict
The PPC 970 rumors get better and better. Lets hope that MacBidouille is right.

At this speed, the rumors will be saying that the PPC 970 will be hitting speeds of 3 Ghz, then a couple of days later 4, then 5.

Don't know if I can trust MacBidouille. I'll wait for MacOSrumors to corroborate these rumors
post #150 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Vvmp
Don't know if I can trust MacBidouille. I'll wait for MacOSrumors to corroborate these rumors

MacBidouille has been right on some rumors, but I think that they are more reliable than MacOSrumors is. I would just like to see something from ThinkSecret or Macrumors to get some info.
post #151 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac OS X Addict
MacBidouille has been right on some rumors, but I think that they are more reliable than MacOSrumors is. I would just like to see something from ThinkSecret or Macrumors to get some info.

Wasn't it MacBidouille that revealed pictures of the wind-tunnel before it was officially shown to the public?
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post #152 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Wasn't it MacBidouille that revealed pictures of the wind-tunnel before it was officially shown to the public?

That is correct.

I trust MacBidouille some, but ThinkSecret seems to be the most reliable site. The MOSR-guy is smoking his own socks!
post #153 of 160
Apple's announcing their DV strategy at NAB in early April.

There are rumors that IBM is fabbing production 970s even now.

AMD is wicked good at fabbing, I hear. AMD is working with IBM on fabs, I hear.

Suppose AMD and IBM get into the .9 fabbing of the 970s, just for giggles, and try a test run using AMD's methodology. Hell, even the .13 size with AMD's methodology. AND... they discover that the AMD way generates plenty of 2.3 ghz 970s with better heat management, etc. It also improves the number of 1.4,1.8 ghz 970s on the wafers, BTW.

Apple pulls one from up its sleeve and debuts a new high-end professional G5-970workstation at NAB: FCP, Cinema Tools, Shake, DVDSP take your pick or mix-n-match. Available in very limited quantities in late May.

Jc ducks as Matsu throws a trout.
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post #154 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by jccbin
Apple's announcing their DV strategy at NAB in early April.

There are rumors that IBM is fabbing production 970s even now.

AMD is wicked good at fabbing, I hear. AMD is working with IBM on fabs, I hear.

Suppose AMD and IBM get into the .9 fabbing of the 970s, just for giggles, and try a test run using AMD's methodology. Hell, even the .13 size with AMD's methodology. AND... they discover that the AMD way generates plenty of 2.3 ghz 970s with better heat management, etc. It also improves the number of 1.4,1.8 ghz 970s on the wafers, BTW.

Apple pulls one from up its sleeve and debuts a new high-end professional G5-970workstation at NAB: FCP, Cinema Tools, Shake, DVDSP take your pick or mix-n-match. Available in very limited quantities in late May.

Jc ducks as Matsu throws a trout.

It is nice to dream... Yes?
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post #155 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by jccbin
AMD is wicked good at fabbing, I hear. AMD is working with IBM on fabs, I hear.

Suppose AMD and IBM get into the .9 fabbing of the 970s, just for giggles, and try a test run using AMD's methodology.

You realise AMD paid IBM to help them right?
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post #156 of 160
Quote:
AMD is wicked good at fabbing,

Did I just wake up in some reverse alternate universe. AMD is ok but I wouldn't say they're wicked good.
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post #157 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Did I just wake up in some reverse alternate universe. AMD is ok but I wouldn't say they're wicked good.

Well... maybe he should have re-phrased things just a bit... How about: in relation to MOT how would you define AMDs fab? From where I sit, 'wicked good' wouldn't be too far a stretch.

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post #158 of 160
Quote:
Originally posted by jccbin
[B
AND... they discover that the AMD way generates plenty of 2.3 ghz 970s with better heat management, etc.
[/B]



AMD with better heat management? The same AMD which gives tech support advice like "try running it with the case cover off"? The same AMD which makes CPUs that'll fry in less than 5 seconds if the heatsink/fan suddenly stops working?

Let's think about that one. AMD has their place, and it's not inside a Mac ('sides those SCSI controller chips from waaay back )

IBM will have no problem delivering the PPC970 all by their lonesome. I predict that the first Macs using the 970 will show up by late summer at the earliest, January '04 at the latest. We shall see...
Dual 2Ghz G5, Single 2Ghz Xserve G5, Dual 1Ghz QS G4, Single 1.25Ghz MDD G4.
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Dual 2Ghz G5, Single 2Ghz Xserve G5, Dual 1Ghz QS G4, Single 1.25Ghz MDD G4.
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post #159 of 160
CONFIRMED: WE HAVE JUST FOUND A 2.5 YEAR OLD LINK TO AN APPLE PLACEHOLDER WEBPAGE FOR BUYING FONTS.
I can change my sig again!
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I can change my sig again!
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post #160 of 160
It was a dream....

I have personally witnessed an Athlon fry. Not fun. Not fun at all.

Does that mean that SOMEONE (IBM is fine by me) isn't storing up some chips from some very successful early runs? No. With all the trouble MOT has had in the last HALF-DECADE, I think we're in line for some good luck on the PPC front, don't you?

:-)
J.C. Corbin, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member, Apple Consultants Network
www.ro3.com
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J.C. Corbin, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member, Apple Consultants Network
www.ro3.com
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