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Will Apple's G5 come from IBM?

post #1 of 1258
8/7/02 at 6:38pm
Thread Starter 
... posted this in another thread already:
From the <a href="http://www.mdronline.com/mpf/conf.html#day1_2" target="_blank">Microprocessor Forum homepage</a>:
Breaking Through Compute Intensive Barriers - IBM's New 64-bit PowerPC Microprocessor
Peter Sandon, Senior Processor Architect, Power PC Organization, IBM Microelectronics
IBM is disclosing the technical details of a new 64-bit PowerPC microprocessor designed for desktops and entry-level servers. Based on the award winning Power4 design, this processor is an 8-way superscalar design that fully supports Symmetric MultiProcessing. The processor is further enhanced by a vector processing unit implementing over 160 specialized vector instructions and implements a system interface capable of up to 6.4GB/s.

Emphasis added. Altivec comprises 162 instructions - will IBM finally implement it? Are there any other desktop OSs on PowerPC apart from MacOSX? AIX maybe?

Interestingly, there are no anouncements by Motorola on the MPF homepage... . Maybe the G4 will be Moto's last desktop-capable processor for real?
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post #2 of 1258
8/7/02 at 6:45pm
[quote]Originally posted by heinzel:
<strong>...

Interestingly, there are no anouncements by Motorola on the MPF homepage... . Maybe the G4 will be Moto's last desktop-capable processor for real?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought you said you had to get some sleep. The average delay between an architecture being presented at MPF and appearing is around 18-24 months (I emphasize average), however, the news that IBM are working on less server-oriented, SIMD capable POWER4 variants is veru good news.

michael
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post #3 of 1258
8/7/02 at 6:52pm
Motorola didnt announce anything last year, except the e500.. ( Well, actually.. we heard about it the core way before that ).

But what is the number of Altivec instructions? something around 160? Too lazy to look up..

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: blabla ]</p>
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post #4 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:05pm
I guess I am starting to believe all the talk around this forum that says IBM is going to be the source for Apple's next processor. If you look at this product who else would use it? It doesn't seem like the Cell chip that has been getting so much attention but there are definitely similarities. Notice it says it is going to be a PowerPC and not a POWER chip. It is also designed for desktops and entry-level servers and not as an embedded chip.

I also think that when they discuss this chip it may be pretty far along and 6 to 12 months is more likely. But that could just be wishful thinking on my part.
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post #5 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:20pm
"Desktops and entry-level servers", they might as as well say "Apple". Though i think IBM will use these new chips as well, for their lower-end RS/6000 workstations and 1U rack servers.
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post #6 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:30pm
well, i think it's now clear where the G5 is coming from. Now, the only question is when will we see these in powermacs? This month or January....
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post #7 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:30pm
Note also it's given by the Senior Processor Architect, Power PC Organization. Meaning it's a PowerPC with stuff from the Power4, not a Power4.

Also note the "system interface capable of up to 6.4GB/s" -- the same as the recently announce nforce2 chipset, I believe.

Also note that it has the velocity engine.

The description doesn't fit anyone but Apple.

As far as timeframe, it could already be done. There's no rule that states a company MUST declare their future plans. The thing is a PowerPC + Velocity Engine + Power4. So it's not like it's a completely new design for IBM.
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post #8 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:31pm
Hope so.

They better hurry.

*looks at watch*
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post #9 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:36pm
[quote]Originally posted by Faeylyn:
<strong>

Also note that it has the velocity engine.

The description doesn't fit anyone but Apple.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where does it say "velocity engine?" It does say "vector unit," and Altivec/Velocity Engine IS a vector unit. Altivec/Velocity Engine is a vector unit, but not all vector units are Altivec/Velocity Engine.
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post #10 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:40pm
[quote]Originally posted by blabla:
<strong>But what is the number of Altivec instructions? something around 160? Too lazy to look up..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Blabla...

Interesting info I just found via google...

<a href="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=4584" target="_blank">http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=4584</a>

----------------------------
[Posted on Friday, June 01, 2001 by Matthew Fite]

...snip...

"The AltiVec unit is an enhanced integer or floating processing unit. It provides a new 128-bit processing unit, 32 vector registers and over 160 new instructions that allow for the processing of data in a pipeline. These provide a tremendous opportunity to move data through the processor. "
----------------------------

Interesting how this article also quotes 'over 160 new instructions'... I'm betting that we are FINALLY reading about the NEXT GEN PPC and it sure looks like IBM has been given the ball.

For what it's worth, this is also what I think GPUL is...

Dave
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post #11 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:40pm
8 way superscalar!? Shazam! Hopefully the processor will support 4 way simultaneous multithreading, otherwise there is going to be a lot of bubbles in that pipeline.
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post #12 of 1258
8/7/02 at 7:58pm
[quote]Originally posted by THT:
<strong>8 way superscalar!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow, I think I just messed my pants......

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: macubus ]</p>
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post #13 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:19pm
[quote]Originally posted by THT:
<strong>8 way superscalar!? Shazam! Hopefully the processor will support 4 way simultaneous multithreading, otherwise there is going to be a lot of bubbles in that pipeline.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Way over my head but here are (part of) the specs for the Power4 where it speaks about 8 way superscalar.

o 8-way superscalar processor:
-- 2 LSUs
-- 2 FPUs
-- 2 FXUs
-- 1 branch unit (BRU)
-- 1 condition register logic unit (CRLU)

o 15 to 20 stage pipelines

o Dynamic branch address and direction prediction

o Out-of-order execution of instruction groups

Dave
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post #14 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:22pm
I was also reading another thread and found this...

"According to the folka at hardmac.com (also known as MacBidouille.com) ... A Large RAM Vendor Has Listed DDR Memory Sticks for teh Xserve AND "New PowerMac"
Less importantly but still interesting to note is that they are listed as 266mhz AND 333mhz parts ... could a 166mhz bus also be included in the new powermac?

See For Yourselves ... Head To:
<a href="http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2002-08-07#3189" target="_blank">http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2002-08-07#3189</a>

And Look Under The Heading
"La DDR-SDRAM du nouveau G4 est en vente"


DDR being sold for the new powermac, and a New processor from IBM which seems like it could easily go into the new powermac. Looks to me like some NDA dates got screwed up and Powermac Release dates got pushed back, and i guess word just didn't get around to everyone.

Steve won't be happy that's for sure.....

Power4 Derivative, Nforce2, and DDR 333, New Case

Oh BTW Nforce2 supports agp 8x if i'm not mistaken, so i think i know what i'm going to buy when they come out

Also you could throw in new studio displays, firewire 2, 802.11g, Built in bluetooth, USB2 for maybe's

I can't wait.
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post #15 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:31pm
[quote]Originally posted by MicrosoftOsXp:
<strong>well, i think it's now clear where the G5 is coming from. Now, the only question is when will we see these in powermacs? This month or January....</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think Apple would allow anybody to announce a chip made for Apple's computers before Apple would. Since I'm assuming that this chip will be used by Apple, my guess is next week.

- Mark

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/index.html
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- Mark

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post #16 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:32pm
[quote]Originally posted by MicrosoftOsXp:
<strong>Steve won't be happy that's for sure..... Power4 Derivative, Nforce2, and DDR 333, New Case Oh BTW Nforce2 supports agp 8x if i'm not mistaken, so i think i know what i'm going to buy when they come out Also you could throw in new studio displays, firewire 2, 802.11g, Built in bluetooth, USB2 for maybe's I can't wait.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well... As excited as I am about this I'm not going to rest my hopes on THIS CPU being intro'd 'sometime in Aug' (or Sept).. Yea I'd be happy as a clam if it was but either way... by this time next year Mac (and X) will be sitting VERY VERY pretty... (if this stuff comes true)

Dave
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post #17 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:35pm
[quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:
<strong>

I don't think Apple would allow anybody to announce a chip made for Apple's computers before Apple would. Since I'm assuming that this chip will be used by Apple, my guess is next week.</strong><hr></blockquote>


IBM has a tradition of talking about chips years ahead of actual release... While this is not a completly new chip, I dont expect it to show up as early as next week.

My guess: Early next year, when IBMs new chip facility is moving to 0.13.
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post #18 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:37pm
"15 to 20 stage pipelines"

thats a pretty long pipeline.. isnt the P4 like 24 stage. dont know the exact number but that sounds close.

that will allow very high clock speeds.

question about the nforce2 chipset.
CAN it even be used on a NON x86 architecture?
the one they have now only works on the AMD platform. how much reworking would they have to do to make it work on an apple infustructure?
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post #19 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:43pm
[quote]Originally posted by Aris:
<strong>question about the nforce2 chipset.
CAN it even be used on a NON x86 architecture?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The 6.4GB/s bandwidth is the only basis for comparison to the nForce, and what it probably means is that, like the nForce, the platform uses HyperTransport for interconnecting parts on the board.

This sounds good. It's apparently not coming anytime too soon, but it still sounds good.
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post #20 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:45pm
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>This sounds good. It's apparently not coming anytime too soon, but it still sounds good.</strong><hr></blockquote>

it better not take TOO long. intel said already they will have a 3ghz on store shelves for this christmas.

they need to start closing this gap before apple gets completely lost in the dust.
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post #21 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:48pm
[quote]Originally posted by blabla:
<strong>


IBM has a tradition of talking about chips years ahead of actual release... While this is not a completly new chip, I dont expect it to show up as early as next week.

My guess: Early next year, when IBMs new chip facility is moving to 0.13.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I don't know what IBM does but I'll take your word that the announce things way in advance. Nonetheless, I don't think Apple would allow public disclosure of the techinical details of a chip that they were going to use. My guess is that we'll see this thing next week.

- Mark

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/index.html
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- Mark

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post #22 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:52pm
IBM's new fabrication plant is designed to produce chips at .09µ from the get go, so it's a good bet that's what this processor will be. Not .13µ as we've been hoping for from Motorola.

Speaking of which, Buh Bye Moto-scro-la. Rat bastards.
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post #23 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:56pm
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>Speaking of which, Buh Bye Moto-scro-la. Rat bastards.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Moogs, I couldn't have said it better myself!! Well not without running into the automated censor... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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post #24 of 1258
8/7/02 at 8:57pm
[quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:
<strong>

Nonetheless, I don't think Apple would allow public disclosure of the techinical details of a chip that they were going to use. My guess is that we'll see this thing next week.</strong><hr></blockquote>

uhm? Motorola discussed details of the original g4, the g4e and the g4e SOI years before actual release at the very same forum IBM is using to disclosure details about this Power4 .. But they havent talket about a high end PPC since y2000 or so, because (IMO) there is no MOT G5 in the pipeline.

Im sure I could find some links to *gasp* confirm this, but Im too lazy right now.
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post #25 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:05pm
The 6.4GB/s bandwidth figure refers to the nForce2's dual channel DDR400 SDRAM controller. Since this is an Athlon chipset, it communicates with the CPU at 2.1GB/s (theoretically, of course), and the HyperTransport link between the IGP and the MCP(North and Southbridge in Nvidia-speak) is 800MB/s.

James, the AMD Opteron will have a HyperTransport bus made up of 2 HT links, for maximum theoritical bandwidth of 6.4 GB/s. This is probably the source of your confusion.
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post #26 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:07pm
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>IBM's new fabrication plant is designed to produce chips at .09µ from the get go, so it's a good bet that's what this processor will be. Not .13µ as we've been hoping for from Motorola.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's designed to transition to 0.09, it will start at 0.13. It is also due to be used for foundry only, not IBM's own chips but chips built for third parties, IBM already have a working 0.13 line for their own chips.

Also Motorola have in the past given presentations at MPF on upcoming processors which have later been used in Macs. The current Apollo processor was described at MPF 2000 or 1999 (I can't remember which right now). IBM would be extremely unlikely to describe a shipping device at MPF, it's the wrong forum. MPF is generally for future hardware.

michael
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post #27 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:09pm
[quote]Originally posted by blabla:
<strong>

uhm? Motorola discussed details of the original g4, the g4e and the g4e SOI years before actual release at the very same forum IBM is using to disclosure details about this Power4 .. But they havent talket about a high end PPC since y2000 or so, because (IMO) there is no MOT G5 in the pipeline.

Im sure I could find some links to *gasp* confirm this, but Im too lazy right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for putting me in a crappy mood. Dang, that's too bad too, it would have been nice to see these processors next week along side better graphics cards and running OX 10.2.

No links required.

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: sc_markt ]</p>

- Mark

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/index.html
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- Mark

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post #28 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:09pm
this sounds like the Power5 chip that an IBM rep talked about in April.

<a href="http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-892836.html" target="_blank">ZDNET Power5 & 6</a>
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post #29 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:12pm
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>

IBM's new fabrication plant is designed to produce chips at .09µ from the get go, so it's a good bet that's what this processor will be. Not .13µ as we've been hoping for from Motorola.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wrong, the new East Fishkill fab will start out at .13 micron and then will be converted to .09 later. I though the CNET article made this clear.
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post #30 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:15pm
[quote]Originally posted by Aris:
<strong>"15 to 20 stage pipelines"

thats a pretty long pipeline.. isnt the P4 like 24 stage. dont know the exact number but that sounds close.

that will allow very high clock speeds.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I belive the P4 is 20 and AMD's Hammer will be 20 as well.
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post #31 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:16pm
[quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:
<strong>
No links required.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I found this
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-210972.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1001-210972.html</a>
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-220805.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1001-220805.html</a>

If I remember correctly, Motorola also announced the 7450 ( named g4e at that time) at that forum october 1999. Thats right: only a few months after the release of first gen G4 powermacs(!!!).

So that Power4 could _in theory_ still be years off..
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post #32 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:21pm
[quote]Originally posted by blabla:
<strong>


I found this
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-210972.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1001-210972.html</a>
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-220805.html" target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1001-220805.html</a>

If I remember correctly, Motorola also announced the 7450 ( named g4e at that time) at that forum october 1999. Thats right: only a few months after the release of first gen G4 powermacs(!!!).

So that Power4 could _in theory_ still be years off..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the links. I also now remember that IBM announced their next generation 750 (750FX I think) chip at last year's microprocessor forum before it ever went into an iBook.

- Mark

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/index.html
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- Mark

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/index.html
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post #33 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:26pm
True. Also, the Apollo (7455) was announced at October 2000.

However, forgetting about Motorola vaporware, does anyone have any history about IBM product annoucements at MPF?

Barto

EDIT: Typed my post as above poster replied.

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: Barto ]</p>
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post #34 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:27pm
[quote]Originally posted by mmicist:
<strong>Also Motorola have in the past given presentations at MPF on upcoming processors which have later been used in Macs. The current Apollo processor was described at MPF 2000 or 1999 (I can't remember which right now). IBM would be extremely unlikely to describe a shipping device at MPF, it's the wrong forum. MPF is generally for future hardware.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes... but if this new chip is indeed based on the Power4 then maybe it might still be worthy of a talk at MPF (even if it's shipping). The Power4 has a lot of respect in the CPU world and being able to move that technology from the server space where the CPU cost $$$$ now to the desktop space $$ would indeed be a pretty big deal and maybe even a worthy use of the forum...

Then again maybe I just WANT IT NOW so I'm looking for any reason I can to say this is ready to ship!

D

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
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post #35 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:29pm
Everyone relax. We are looking at 12 months, minimum.

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post #36 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:33pm
IBM have used the same forum to announce the Power4. IIRC, they talked about it ~2 years ahead of actual release.

This CPU might be different, since its not a completly new design. OK, adding SIMD is non-trival, but we already have Altivec in the G4 so..

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: blabla ]</p>
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post #37 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:48pm
[quote]Originally posted by Jet Powers:
<strong>Everyone relax. We are looking at 12 months, minimum.

Jet</strong><hr></blockquote>

Easy for you to say, you probably have a G4. I've had this 8600 for 5 years. I can't relax. And, I can't run OS X.

- Mark

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/index.html
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post #38 of 1258
8/7/02 at 9:51pm
Last year, one of IBM's presentations at the MPF was the Gekko chip for GameCube which came out a month later.

They did announce a next-generation PPC architecture with SIMD last year when they published their latest roadmap. According to that roadmap, this "new-generation" was supposed to come after the current generation stopped at 1Ghz on 13 micron SOI, which is what the 750fx is.

The only thing new here, is that they're finally saying this will be a "high-performance desktop processor" and not a low-power, low-cost embedded one. This is huge. Last year, they always made it a point to emphasize that this new-generation PPC would be an embedded low-power design. So now they're saying there'll be a desktop version.

A 64 bit , 8 way desktop processor with SIMD would kick major ass. It would put Apple back in the performance game, big time. If only we could have this by MWSF next year...
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post #39 of 1258
8/7/02 at 10:10pm
[quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:
<strong>

Easy for you to say, you probably have a G4. I've had this 8600 for 5 years. I can't relax. And, I can't run OS X.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, there have been several machines between the 8600 and these next-next-next generation ones, that will run OSX. You could have purchased one of those. And if those aren't good enough, buy one of the new ones coming out in the next month or so.

There will ALWAYS be bleeding-edge, early design stage stuff we'll hear about, that's faster than anything we can actually buy. It doesn't mean the stuff we can buy isn't worth buying, just because the bleeding-edge stuff is coming eventually.
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post #40 of 1258
8/7/02 at 10:29pm
[quote]The only thing new here, is that they're finally saying this will be a "high-performance desktop processor" and not a low-power, low-cost embedded one.<hr></blockquote>
My guess is that they will still be low-power, or relatively low-power. Entry-level servers == blade servers, where heat dissapation and power consumption are a concern. Not as much of a concern as embedded, but you won't be cooking eggs on the thing.
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