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Just *why* are we at war in Iraq?

post #1 of 307
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I've heard so many stated reasons why we are at war with Iraq and the whole thing is getting less clear cut as each day passes:


(1) We were informed that Iraq had all these WMDs and must be disarmed in order to spare the US from a nuclear or chemical/biological attack. (This reason seems to have almost dropped out of sight lately).

(2) There was the much touted "regime change" angle: if Saddam Hussein went into exile, a war could be averted...(although this was denied by Ari Fleischer on the eve of the start of bombing)....

(3) Then it was all about al'Qaeda and it's connections to Iraq (disproven over and over)....

(4) Always present is the old charge that we are going to war to take control of and profit from the world's second largest oil deposits (a favorite amongst anti-war protesters)....

(5) For the benefit of defense contractors' bottom lines....

(6) The media is currenntly bristling with Bush's latest reason for going to war...namely to "liberate the Iraqi people from a vicious dictator"..."Operation Iraqi Freedom". (to hear Bush harping on about the "human rights" factor makes my skin crawl).

(7) Then there's the PNAC plan conceived by Perle. Wolfowitz et al (major architects of Bush admin. policies), in the mid 1990s which calls for "far more assertive US presence in the Middle East", and for a war against Iraq in the process.

8. The power of the Jewish lobby in D.C./ the Israel factor. (this one's kind of the great unmentionable)

(9) Now there's this possible reason which has been getting lots of air of late: the currency war between the Euro and the US $ dollar. One of many links:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp...=Cover+Stories

The ones I give the most credence to (so far) is (9) the currency issue, followed by (7) and (4)

Anyone got different reasons for the war, and did I omit some?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #2 of 307
10) Wag The Dog - distract us from the terrible economy, the fact that we can't get Bin Laden

11) Win a war, win reelection !
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post #3 of 307
(12) - To kill babies and brown people
(13) - Strategerie
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post #4 of 307
Just follow the facts!

1. In 1999, Iraq, with the world's second largest oil reserves, switched to trading its oil in euros.

2. Under an OPEC agreement, all oil has been traded in US dollars since 1971 which makes the US dollar the de facto major international trading currency. If other nations have to hoard dollars to buy oil, then they want to use that hoard for other trading too. This fact gives America a huge trading advantage and helps make it the dominant economy in the world.

3. The European Union is the only challenger to the USA's economic position, and it created the euro to challenge the dollar in international markets. However, the EU is not yet united behind the euro -- there is a lot of jingoistic national politics involved, not least in Britain -- and in any case, so long as nations throughout the world must hoard dollars to buy oil, the euro can make only very limited inroads into the dollar's dominance.

4. Iran started thinking about switching too; Venezuela, the 4th largest oil producer, began looking at it and has been cutting out the dollar by bartering oil with several nations including America's bete noir, Cuba. Russia is seeking to ramp up oil production with Europe (trading in euros) an obvious market.

Opinion:

The greenback's grip on oil trading and consequently on world trade in general, was under serious threat. If America did not stamp on this immediately, this economic brushfire could rapidly be fanned into a wildfire capable of consuming the US's economy and its dominance of world trade.

Imagine this: you are deep in debt but every day you write cheques for millions of dollars you don't have -- another luxury car, a holiday home at the beach, the world trip of a lifetime.

Your cheques should be worthless but they keep buying stuff because those cheques you write never reach the bank! You have an agreement with the owners of one thing everyone wants, call it petrol/gas, that they will accept only your cheques as payment. This means everyone must hoard your cheques so they can buy petrol/gas. Since they have to keep a stock of your cheques, they use them to buy other stuff too. You write a cheque to buy a TV, the TV shop owner swaps your cheque for petrol/gas, that seller buys some vegetables at the fruit shop, the fruiterer passes it on to buy bread, the baker buys some flour with it, and on it goes, round and round -- but never back to the bank.

You have a debt on your books, but so long as your cheque never reaches the bank, you don't have to pay. In effect, you have received your TV free.

This is the position the USA has enjoyed for 30 years -- it has been getting a free world trade ride for all that time. It has been receiving a huge subsidy from everyone else in the world. As it debt has been growing, it has printed more money (written more cheques) to keep trading. No wonder it is an economic powerhouse!

Then one day, one petrol seller says he is going to accept another person's cheques, a couple of others think that might be a good idea. If this spreads, people are going to stop hoarding your cheques and they will come flying home to the bank. Since you don't have enough in the bank to cover all the cheques, very nasty stuff is going to hit the fan!

But you are big, tough and very aggressive. You don't scare the other guy who can write cheques, he's pretty big too, but given a 'legitimate' excuse, you can beat the tripes out of the lone gas seller and scare him and his mates into submission.
And that, in a nutshell, is what the USA is doing right now with Iraq.

America is so eager to attack Iraq now because of the speed with which the euro fire could spread. If Iran, Venezuela and Russia join Iraq and sell large quantities of oil for euros, the euro would have the leverage it needs to become a powerful force in general international trade. Other nations would have to start swapping some of their dollars for euros.

The dollars the USA has printed, the 'cheques' it has written, would start to fly home, stripping away the illusion of value behind them. The USA's real economic condition is about as bad as it could be; it is the most debt-ridden nation on earth, owing about US$12,000 for every single one of it's 280 million men, women and children. It is worse than the position of Indonesia when it imploded economically a few years ago, or more recently, that of Argentina.

America's response to the euro threat was predictable. It has come out fighting.
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post #5 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Just follow the facts!

1. In 1999, Iraq, with the world's second largest oil reserves, switched to trading its oil in euros.

2. Und

[Snip: a whole bunch of right things; right stuff; correct sentences]

s response to the euro threat was predictable. It has come out fighting.

You are right. If you think that when Iraq is governed by an American, Iraq will continue to trade its oil in Euros you are either:

a) mad
b) lying out your arse
c) an optimistic fantasist (Tony Blair)
d) that's it I think

This war is, and I hate to say it again, a war about oil. I went off the idea before the war started (haven't done my oil dance for weeks) but the more I think about it, the more I realise it really is.

FOR ONE NIGHT ONLY!!!

HASSAN IBN SABBAH DOES HIS OIL DANCE!


OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OILY OIL!!!
post #6 of 307
Huge balance of payment defecit? Enormous budget defecit?

PRINT MORE MONEY.

Inflation-free, up to the theoretical value of all the oil underground. Only the US can do this.

Be very clear -- should oil be priced in euros (or yuan ... ) the US economy is FUKCED overnight. We're talking finished. Hyperinflation.

This is what actually scares me; imagine German 1930's style hyperinflation and hunger in the US ... add that country's fierce, triumphalist patriotism, lack of understanding in the rest of the planet and the most incredible pile of weapons the planet has seen ...
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post #7 of 307
I think what the US is doing is necessary to maintain their current global position. However killing 3,000 of their own people to create the excuse to accomplish this is more evil then Iraq could ever be. It is more diabolical then blaming a mentally challenged Jew for a state sponsored bombing. Hail Bush!
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post #8 of 307
You guys are talking out your asses. A strong dollar doesn't make it easier for the U.S. to trade with other nations, it make it harder. It makes it harder for other nations to invest in the U.S.

Bush has chosen to let the dollar drift to where it should be. It was a policy change and I read about it back in 2000. The Euro with the economic might of Germany and France had nothing to do with this. (They are the biggest boat anchors on the entire E.U. right now as well)

The dollar is the number one currency in the world for a number of reasons. First the U.S. economy is the largest in the world. It has a low (by E.U. standards) amount of taxation. It controls inflation through fiscal policy so that the dollars you earn don't evaporate as was stated on here.

Take the scenario taken here and reverse it. It isn't that the check doesn't get cashed. It is that when it does, it is worth twice as much as it was written for. However that wasn't true for the check writer, rather it was true for the check casher. The U.S. being the check writer didn't get the benefit. The dollar has been allowed to drift lower because we have a Republican president who believes in free trade and that the U.S. should actually benefit from that trade.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #9 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
I think what the US is doing is necessary to maintain their current global position. However killing 3,000 of their own people to create the excuse to accomplish this is more evil then Iraq could ever be. It is more diabolical then blaming a mentally challenged Jew for a state sponsored bombing. Hail Bush!

This on the other hand is conspiracist nonsense.
post #10 of 307
More ant-american ranting from the pro-saddam left. Hey SJO you still think Saddam didn't gas his own people? Maybe Hitler was a good guy too?
post #11 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You guys are talking out your asses. A strong dollar doesn't make it easier for the U.S. to trade with other nations, it make it harder. It makes it harder for other nations to invest in the U.S.

Balance of payments.

Budget deficit.

Get it? You have the way of life you do because if you're short of cash you print more. It goes into your economy. You owe bazillions, on tick against every unexploited barrel of oil underground.

It's just true.
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post #12 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
More ant-american ranting from the pro-saddam left. Hey SJO you still think Saddam didn't gas his own people? Maybe Hitler was a good guy too?

Debunk it for us. Be a dear.
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post #13 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
More ant-american ranting from the pro-saddam left. Hey SJO you still think Saddam didn't gas his own people? Maybe Hitler was a good guy too?

Actually, SJO insinuated that the gas attacks were of Iranian origin because of the type of gas used. Of course that really wouldn't make any sense since the victims were sympathetic to Iran...But people tend to spew alarmist conspiracy theories (no matter how ridiculous) ... whatever it takes to stick it to whomever
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post #14 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Debunk it for us. Be a dear.

Should Scott also feel compelled to debunk SPJ's claim that the Columbia tragedy was manufactured by Gee Dubya?

Or that the footage of Palestinians cheering in the streets after 9/11 was from 1991? Oh wait, he did debunk that.

Or that 9/11 itself was totally orchestrated by the current administration?
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post #15 of 307
Your right, saying the US government killed 3000 of their own people and blaming it on a guy we trained and supplied is indeed conspiracy silliness. It's easier believing the FBI, NSA, CIA and NIS were just incompetent to let known terrorist into the US and let them take flying lessons. Oops sorry we missed a few. By the way I used to turn a blind eye too until I found out that the new in-term government in Afghanistan are no other then ex Executives from US oil companies including the US ambassador. Pipeline baby! Wake Up America!
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post #16 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic

...

Wake Up America!

Oh yeah, because the economy didn't tank even further after the WTC/Pentagon attacks, and the war and rebuilding of Iraq and the time the US economy spent in limbo while the UN squabbled over Iraq won't end up costing hundreds of billions by the end of the year and into the next! /me wakes up!

We'll make it all back on the oil (especially the lush oil fields in Afghanistan). Awesome.
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post #17 of 307
jeeezus . . . any idiot can see that Relic is a plant . . . spewing the stuff that makes moderate and critical thinking cringe

and stuff that discredits any questions about the war

its classic disinfo
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #18 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
Actually, SJO insinuated that the gas attacks were of Iranian origin because of the type of gas used. Of course that really wouldn't make any sense since the victims were sympathetic to Iran...But people tend to spew alarmist conspiracy theories (no matter how ridiculous) ... whatever it takes to stick it to whomever

It may make no sense to you but it was the official American position on the matter at one time. Remember this was when Saddam was Good and Iran was Bad: "whatever it takes to stick it to whomever" as you say.

It was at least a plausible lie, whatever you may think now, as the Iranians and Iraqis were in the middle of fighting a war at the time and I think recent events have demonstrated how easy it is to kill the people on your own side/innocent bystanders.
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post #19 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
We'll make it all back on the oil (especially the lush oil fields in Afghanistan). Awesome.

When you say 'we' are you saying that you are one of Bush's oil and war cronies or are you naively assuming that this war is being waged for the benefit of the American people?
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post #20 of 307
Sorry, got a little carried way. Nothing like a good conspiracy theory to ruffle a few feathers. However I challenge anyone on this forum to prove me wrong. All I know is I spent 4 years in the US Navy patrolling the Caribbean looking for drug boats. I can't tell you how many times that we came across boats that had hundreds of pages of intel on them just to be told by Joint Chiefs of Operations, "Let them go, nothing to see, continue on your way." Ignore the man behind the curtain.
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post #21 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Balance of payments.

Budget deficit.

Get it? You have the way of life you do because if you're short of cash you print more. It goes into your economy. You owe bazillions, on tick against every unexploited barrel of oil underground.

It's just true.

Because you say so... oh thank you oh dear wise and wonderful truthsayer...

I'll tell you what. Why don't you look at all the western democracies in Europe, North American and Asia. Then look at their deficits and also look at them as a percentage of their Gross Domestic Product.

I assure you that Europe and Japan would have everything to worry about and that while the U.S. does have worries, they are small in comparision to what those poor countries are going to have to deal with.

Here's a nice little linky for ya...

http://reuters.com/financeNewsArticl...type=bondsNews

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #22 of 307
Quote:
However, I challange anyone on this forum to prove me wrong

reminds me of this homeless guy i used to walk by every day. he'd sit there and talk about mind control drugs in the water, evesdropping through the V-chip etc. that was a favorite line of his too. "I'm right, and you can't prove otherwise"

of course, it had to beg the question, do you really need to prove he's wrong, or just lump him in as another nut job on a bender.
post #23 of 307
All this consipiracy... you guys crack me up. Oh wait I gotta go, black helicopters are outside my window, and Elvis is waiting in the car downstairs with Bigfoot.
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post #24 of 307
Yea but alcimedes I'm not a crazy homeless guy. I'm a guy who lives in a country that have bomb shelters built into every building. Men are obligated to serve the military between the ages 18 - 30. They have regular air raid siren tests. Every man, women and child has an assigned place in a underground bunker. This country is one of the wealthiest in the world. Their like this because of the lessons they learned through out history, nothing lasts forever. So you go ahead and brush off that homeless guy off as another nut, but when the @#$% hits the fan he will be the richest guy around because he knows how to survive on nothing. The way that drunk driving, AWOL from the National Guard, falsely inaugurated President is running things, it won't be long......
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post #25 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Yea but alcimedes I'm not a crazy homeless guy. I'm a guy who lives in a country that have bomb shelters built into every building. Men are obligated to serve the military between the ages 18 - 30. They have regular air raid siren tests. Every man, women and child has an assigned place in a underground bunker. This country is one of the wealthiest in the world. Their like this because of the lessons they learned through out history, nothing lasts forever. So you go ahead and brush off that homeless guy off as another nut, but when the @#$% hits the fan he will be the richest guy around because he knows how to survive on nothing. The way that drunk driving, AWOL from the National Guard, falsely inaugurated President is running things, it won't be long......

Amazing... starts anti-war, ends anti-Bush. Hard to believe isn't it?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #26 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Amazing... starts anti-war, ends anti-Bush. Hard to believe isn't it?

I suppose that proves him wrong?
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post #27 of 307
Well if I'm anti war I must be anti Bush. Nick are you for war, your post defiantly shows that. I also liked your linky about how France and Germany are in financial ruins and the US is only going through a little speed bumped when it comes to finances. So the word trillions in debt means nothing to you.

Ah screw it, this is Mac forum. What do I know about politics anyway, in fact I'm for war now. I mean who am I to argue against our governments. I live in a lap of luxury, I have a Mac, cars, 2 houses, great kids, steaks on a regular bases and an Xbox. Without the US invading countries and bombing the crap out of people for oil I might be inconvenience and I would hate that. I just hope that none of you have friends or family in Iraq dying for the glory of the empire.
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post #28 of 307
I have heard this "we print out more money all backed by oil" thing quite a few times on this board and have never seen any backing at all for that assertion.
Am I just supposed to assume it's fact?
I've also heard that well over 90% of the deficit is owed to US taxpayers.

And did you people not notice how currency experts debunked the "this war will make the dollar stronger" myth right at the beginning of the freaking article?
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post #29 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman

Here's a nice little linky for ya...

http://reuters.com/financeNewsArticl...type=bondsNews

Now, I try not to pay too much attention to economics, but this link shows me that the U.S. should be worried.

I know the dollar is falling against the Euro. That said, if the two biggest economies in the E.U. are doing poorly, and the dollar is falling against their currencies, this linky shows me that the U.S. economy is doing worse than that of the E.U. and France & Germany specifically.

Do we have the numbers on the decifits & GDP? The linky didn't show them.
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post #30 of 307
"I've heard so many stated reasons why we are at war with Iraq and the whole thing is getting less clear cut as each day passes"

That's not surprising SJO: you are a conspiracy whore. If I didn't have any kind of ability to judge what is and is not a credible theory my head would be spinning too.

Drink some fluids. Get some sleep.
post #31 of 307
Linky's


Associated Press, "US Dollar on Shaky Ground," nzoom.com (January 24, 2003)
http://onebusiness.nzoom.com/cda/pri...163754,00.html

McCarthy, Grainne "Dollar's Decline Starting To Accelerate, Rattling Nerves," Dow Jones, (January 25, 2003)
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/...dollarDec.html

Hutton, Will, "Why Bush is sunk without Europe - Even while George Bush growls out his bellicose message, his country has never been in such an enfeebled state," The Observer, (January 26, 2003)
http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4591686,00.html

Nunan, CoÃ*lÃ*n, "Oil, Currency, and the War on Iraq," (January 2003)
http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm
http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.pdf

"Behind the Iraq Invasion," Aspects of India's Economy, Nos. 33 & 34 (December 2002)
http://www.rupe-india.org/34/behind.html

Makhijani, Arjun, "Saddam's Last Laugh: The Dollar Could be Headed for Hard Times if OPEC Switches to the Euro." TomPaine.com (May 9, 2001)
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm?ID=4110%20

Islam, Faisal, "When will we buy oil in euros? When it comes to the global oil trade, the dollar reigns supreme. But it has a challenger, writes Faisal Islam," The Observer (February 23, 2003)
http://www.observer.co.uk/business/s...900867,00.html

Beams, Nick, "Iraq, Oil, Dollars, Euros, and Dead Iraqis," Information Clearing House (February 2003)
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle1554.htm
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post #32 of 307
The justifiable reason is that Saddam has broken UN resolution 1441, and has been in defiance of the international community since Gulf War I ended. The UN Security Counsil has no balls to back up its own statutes, which puts to question its legitimacy altogether, so if we don't act who will? That and the fact that our administration has evidence of Iraq's dealings with terrorists, possibly WMDs, which directly puts our nation in imminent danger. What more reason do you need?
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post #33 of 307
Thank you, DanMacMan.
post #34 of 307
I dunno, I'm kinda in the 'why not' crowd. So far the war has boosted my spirits and is giving our troops a good work out. If they happen to off an evil dictator, hey, then that's a freebie!
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post #35 of 307
Relic:

Were those links direct at my question?
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post #36 of 307
DanMacMan from Michigan, so that gives the right to the US to invade another country? Plus the fact that Iraq has the second largest oil reserve means nothing? What about North Korea, no wait we can't do that all they have is snow! Come on, you got to stop watching CNN, I haven't seen a dog and pony show like this since Bush won in Florida. I'm not saying my theory is right but we are not in their because they have weapons of mass destruction. Well if they do I'm 100% sure the US is holding the bill of sale.
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post #37 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
the fact that Iraq has the second largest oil reserve means nothing?

I don't follow you... so if a country we go to war with happens to have a decent export (or something we need) we cannot attack them or we are going to pirate away their wealth? Hum... if this is the case, why haven't we been running Iraq for years? And why not any of the South American countries? And why not the diamond producing african nations? Hell, why not cuba for their cigars? Lets get real. You can't play the 'oil war' game. It just isn't *that* reasonable. To answer you, it DOES mean nothing that they have that oil reserve. You think for a single second that somehow we are gonna get reduced cost of oil out of this? If you haven't noticed... gas prices are UP!
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post #38 of 307
Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan

The justifiable reason is that Saddam has broken UN resolution 1441, and has been in defiance of the international community since Gulf War I ended. The UN Security Counsil has no balls to back up its own statutes, which puts to question its legitimacy altogether, so if we don't act who will?

The United States has no legal authority to enforce its own versions of U.N. Resolutions without U.N. backing.


Quote:
Originally posted by DanMacMan

That and the fact that our administration has evidence of Iraq's dealings with terrorists, possibly WMDs, which directly puts our nation in imminent danger. What more reason do you need?

If there was or is evidence of a terrorist connection, show it. If you can't show it, you can't use it as a basis for an argument.

If there is any evidence that our nation is in imminent danger, show it. If you can't show it, you can't use it as a basis for an argument.

You're welcome pscates, for the 1st grade level response necessary to debunk that post. I would have thought you could handle that yourself.

"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #39 of 307
Agreeing with someone and thanking them for stating it kinda clearly and all is "first grade"? Bug off.

Oops...I forgot: you know everything and are always right. I forgot.
post #40 of 307
First grade, second grade, ninth grade, sixth grade. Hey guys, you seem to be particulary big about grades.
Is this grade thing becoming the most popular insult in AI ?

8) 8) Stay nice people, stay nice 8) 8)

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