Moved: New PowerMac specs - Page 2

actually I think a dual 867 at the bottom is great. and dual 1.25 is great, too. this is PowerPC after all, no Pentium 4 schit. I guess a dual 867 with a Radeon 9700 card would make a kick-ass machine. and if it comes in snow-white, all the better - it shines more that way.

Thinksecret is reporting the same speeds.

Hopefully these chips can use real DDR memory, not the hack seen in xserve.

Depressing. Really depressing but expected.

Reading this forum for a couple month now, first post ever:

How about getting ready for nothing more than a moderate speed bump, say the 1.25ghz claimed by macminute?

It seems odd to me that Apple didn't announce the update, one would think they'd do so, if it really was an important one.

I think they are keeping it quiet until the update is ready (involving IBM's new desktop processor).

"Before people start 'ing and running off to PCs: All we know is processor speed, video card and price. That's not much. I'd be surprised if DDR RAM appears, but if there's a move to the 166MHz MPX bus, that's about a 25% increase in CPU bandwidth to go with a 25% increase in CPU clockspeed. It's not astonishing, but it's a solid upgrade."

Well the 867 cant be on a 166 bus its still 133.The 1 gig could be 166 and the 1.25 must be.
Which means those who cant aford a 3300 computer are screwed once again.Since most software doesnt use the second processor and most programs that do get only a modest boost this is in reality a sorry 67 mghz bump.Pathetic.This deserves two faces!

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>I don't think MacMinute has ever been wrong with last-minute specs either. They're good.

Before people start 'ing and running off to PCs: All we know is processor speed, video card and price. That's not much. I'd be surprised if DDR RAM appears, but if there's a move to the 166MHz MPX bus, that's about a 25% increase in CPU bandwidth to go with a 25% increase in CPU clockspeed. It's not astonishing, but it's a solid upgrade. Also, the bottom end machine is a duallie now, not a crippled single-processor runt. Who can complain that the cheap machine is now a much better value?

And who seriously expected a PowerBook update?! There's no way that's happening until November. They got a significant revision not long ago, and the current models are sweet.

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

25% performance increase is not enough. It will make the mac being equal to CURRENT PCs. Now, imagine, you're at Christmas. You want to make a gift to your son you buy a computer :
- Dual PM 1.25 GHz &gt; 3000$
- 3.0 GHz P4 &lt; 3000$
- 2.8 GHz Athlon &lt; 3000$
You know about the MHz Myth but you have foubn on internet a benchmarks PC is 25% faster and a little bit cheaper... WHAT COMPUTER WILL YOU BUY ?

Didn't they update the iBook twice this year ? For the QE support with the 700 MHz ?

Aw

[quote]Originally posted by Toofeu:
<strong> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
I'm starting to be very tired of apple and its products, I can't believe that the specs are so low...
the intel world is reaching the 3 ghtz barrier and we get a 1.25 processor speed for more than 3000 dollars!!
I'll keep my old system for another 6 months.

But this shouldn't come as a surprise, Apple knows so well how to let us down...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Keep your chin up man. There are many things worse in life than a computer company not hitting expected speeds in their new line. OSX
10.2 is gonna scream with snappiness with these boxes.

[quote]Originally posted by Toofeu:
<strong>
the intel world is reaching the 3 ghtz barrier and we get a 1.25 processor speed for more than 3000 dollars!!
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I hope Apple allows you to configure it so that you can get it at a lower price. Nevertheless, it's not going to be an incentive for me to buy one.

This is pathetic. The way Apple is going, it may be 2004 before they hit 2GHz.

If those specs are true, Apple is going to have 5 months of pretty poor sales until MWSF.

Well, like I posted in another thread, the all DP upgrade would be OK if it came with DDR (even a hacked up Xserve version) and AGP 8X, and maybe Apple could be nice and supply a multi-channel ATA100 controller on the MoBo. That would save digital A/V pros an expensive outlay on SCSI/Raid and could make the purchase worth it for some.

As it is (hypothetically of course) a DP 867 for $1600 isn't bad, worth considering over an iMac (if you already own a decent monitor) but the top end wouldn't be worth it.

I once dreamed of a bright future, that dream is gone.

i'm getting angry at Apple for not delivering the goods. How do they think to sell anything of that crap.

Alright, a bit of speculation on my part in regards to the MacMinute specs, but bear with me.

As for the current bus speed ratios:
800/133 = 6
933/133 = 7
1000/133 = 7.5

As for the upcoming ratios, let's try a 133 MHz bus speed.
867/133 = 6.5 (this works)
1000/133 = 7.5 (again, this works)
1250/133 9.39 (this doesn't work, it'd have to be either a 1197MHz or 1264MHz G4. I doubt they would short change themselves and round 1264MHz down to 1250.)

What about a 166 MHz bus?
867/166 = 5.22 (nope)
1000/166 = 6 (this works)
1250/166 = 7.5 (works as well)

What does this mean? If the proc speeds reported by MacMinute are 100% correct, then the following points hold:
- The 867 machine MUST have a 133 MHz bus, or some multiple thereof (i.e. 266)
- The 1000 machine can have a bus of either 133 or 166 or a multiple thereof (i.e. 333)
- The 1250 machine must have a bus of 166 or a multiple thereof (i.e. 333).

A quick check of available ram types reveals that for SDR RAM, only 66, 100, 133, and 150 MHz models were ever made.

So, if the 1250 machine must have a 166 MHz bus, then it holds that only 166 MHz DDR RAM (333MHz effective) could sit on such a bus.

EDIT:
In short, 333 DDR RAM is almost guaranteed in the 1250 model.

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: SkullMac ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>Well, like I posted in another thread, the all DP upgrade would be OK if it came with DDR (even a hacked up Xserve version) and AGP 8X, and maybe Apple could be nice and supply a multi-channel ATA100 controller on the MoBo. That would save digital A/V pros an expensive outlay on SCSI/Raid and could make the purchase worth it for some.

As it is (hypothetically of course) a DP 867 for $1600 isn't bad, worth considering over an iMac (if you already own a decent monitor) but the top end wouldn't be worth it.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Oooohh no, not with the hacked up XServe please !!!!! WITH TRUE DDR AT LEAST !!!!! AND "G5" !!!!


Aw

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: Appleworm ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by cthulu:
<strong>Since most software doesnt use the second processor</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but Mac OS X does, and you can run one program on one of the processors while running another on the other.

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>an AGP 8X, and maybe Apple could be nice and supply a multi-channel ATA100 controller on the MoBo. That would save digital A/V pros an expensive outlay on SCSI/Raid and could make the purchase worth it for some.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yeah sure....
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Don't think that apple can implement all those goodies, we are still hoping that they finally decide to implement something that exists for almost two years now.. the DDR.
So for the AGP8X well maybe next year if we are lucky.
By then all pros will be using AMD boxes.

For more than one year Apple has mac running at 2.0 GHz+ so give them to us !!!!!


Aw

Unless they've crippled the Entry Level unit too much it's price rocks. I'm not buying now but this gives me a target for early next year. I think the $3300 top unit is pretty spendy..I hope it's beefed up configurationwise.

I look for the silver lining and people jump down my throat, damn. The site did mention ATI Radeon 9700, which is an 8X AGP part, but I suppose Apple could just run it across a 4X bus.

My guess is they are spot on (though ATI vid cards seem odd)

In detail, I would bet the 1699 unit stays with PC133 (effectively same as a QS) and the upper 2 go to DDR and a new platform.

1] Anyone who expected a .5 ghz jump expected, well, too much

2] We don't know for sure till tomorrow

3] Top of the line would be DUAL 1.25 ghz, that's 2.5 ghz total. That's 2.5 ghz total of AltiVec, PowerPC goodness.

I say let's wait and see them in action before we complain like stupid.

[quote]Originally posted by zaz:
<strong>My guess is they are spot on (though ATI vid cards seem odd)

In detail, I would bet the 1699 unit stays with PC133 (effectively same as a QS) and the upper 2 go to DDR and a new platform.</strong><hr></blockquote>


That's cool because DDR is not going to make a huge difference. Geeks will just miss it for the bragging rights.

For whoever said that no software uses DP, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

OS X automatically uses DP.

I'm concerned about this update for two reasons:

1. differing bus speeds across line. 133 on a theoretical 867 mhz system, 166 on a 1.25.
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

2. If they can't get a true DDR implementation in this rev, it's pretty damn sad.

a Dual 867 for 1599 is pretty good, though, if it's got DDR.

I know we'll hear a lot of bitching and moaning--some of it relatively legitimate--from various quarters here. But I for one will be happy with a modest speed bump and a revamped motherboard. I'm buying.

The reason is simple: I have too much work to do. Those of you who want the Power4 model will just need to wait, but Apple will be kicking some serious derriere in the coming years, I predict. Their software acquisitions have been too promising for us not to see great hardware down the line.

Look at this PowerMac revision not as a stopgap but as a movement toward easing the gap. The PC world will still win the races, but by a more narrow margin. In six to fourteen months, we'll have dramatic gains, but those of us with a lot of work to do don't have time to moan and whine.

-----------------------------------------
Waiting Until Tomorrow in Nashvegas

1,2 Ghz for ThinkSecret (which means we can be stuck at 133 FSB) and 1,25 GHz for Macminute...

I hope that MacMinute is right but I fear ThinkSecret is...

I need to buy the next mid-level PowerMac, but I think I will have the bare minimum from what I expected

Don't forget those sexy new cases

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong> The site did mention ATI Radeon 9700, which is an 8X AGP part, but I suppose Apple could just run it across a 4X bus.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The site mentions ATI 9000 serie not specifically the 9700 card...
I don't think that we are getting this one for a long time
:o

I'm not dissapointed. I knw these specs aren't what most everyone wanted, but I'm surprised that all of you even care what apple CPU speeds are compared to wintel speeds. What does it matter? Its fast, its fast for our apps, and its still faster than wintel, and we don't need to put up with a crappy OS. Grow up!

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a 9Ghz G5 with QDR Ram, or something like that, but even a dual 800 G4 with SDR Ram works fine for RealTime Rendering of High Res Video - That says something.

Heres the essential problem - most apple users are suffering from Ghz Envy. Most of us are running around saying "Mhz doesn't mater!" but all you have to do is look at this board to see that most of you don't really believe that.

I agree that apple could improve its product speed bumps, They haven't been exactly forthcoming. But, as long as the quality of the product improves, why do you care if it doesn't look the same as the corresponding Wintel Speeds? What is the source of this insecurity?

Bottom line - I'm buying a PowerMac when they're announced tomorrow. And so are quite a few of you. If you want to wait - coolio. If you want to switch to PC so you can have a 3Ghz peice of garbage that processes Wintel vomit then you are a shallow hack and deserve the telephone charges you can look forward to getting when you have to start calling M$ tech support. Enjoy.

[quote]Originally posted by Agent Cooper:
<strong>I'm not dissapointed. I knw these specs aren't what most everyone wanted, but I'm surprised that all of you even care what apple CPU speeds are compared to wintel speeds. What does it matter? Its fast, its fast for our apps, and its still faster than wintel, and we don't need to put up with a crappy OS. Grow up!

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a 9Ghz G5 with QDR Ram, or something like that, but even a dual 800 G4 with SDR Ram works fine for RealTime Rendering of High Res Video - That says something.

Heres the essential problem - most apple users are suffering from Ghz Envy. Most of us are running around saying "Mhz doesn't mater!" but all you have to do is look at this board to see that most of you don't really believe that.

I agree that apple could improve its product speed bumps, They haven't been exactly forthcoming. But, as long as the quality of the product improves, why do you care if it doesn't look the same as the corresponding Wintel Speeds? What is the source of this insecurity?

Bottom line - I'm buying a PowerMac when they're announced tomorrow. And so are quite a few of you. If you want to wait - coolio. If you want to switch to PC so you can have a 3Ghz peice of garbage that processes Wintel vomit then you are a shallow hack and deserve the telephone charges you can look forward to getting when you have to start calling M$ tech support. Enjoy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Right on AgentCooper!

Wintel doesn't run Final Cut Pro or OS X or Logic(soon) hehehehe. I'm not complaining ...I want OS X to fly..the hardware will come.

[quote]Originally posted by Toofeu:
<strong>


Yeah sure....
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Don't think that apple can implement all those goodies, we are still hoping that they finally decide to implement something that exists for almost two years now.. the DDR.
So for the AGP8X well maybe next year if we are lucky.
By then all pros will be using AMD boxes.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree.

Their hardware is like some of the new features of OS X an their iApps; iDevice : THEY DIDN'T THINK DIFFERENT.

They think as the other, but 1 or 2 years after, or they redo what they did (folder opening in jaguar and os 9, little speed bump) and selle that to us saying that they made big improvments.

e.g.:
iCal is not a new idea.
syncing data between a computer and a phone is not new (even the most coolest and easiest it is)


Moreover they make computer slower than all other and they sell them more expensive than other (A dual PM 1.25-DDR vs a dual Athlon 2.8-DDR), but they are the MACINTOSH myth so they can do that but until when ?

Mac folk wake-up !!!!


Aw
iApple : Selling the coolest slow hardware for years...

The slight speed increase is fine if not for the price increase to go along with it...
Of course 'other details not avail.' could mean it will be worth the money, but if all we get is the speed increase with a price bump....
Well at least the 'old' 800 will be avail. on the cheap. Dual procs aren't worth the extra money for most people. They don't show speed increases for most applications...
BTW when does apple update for this sort of thing? Will it be avail. in the AM? (Based on, say, the last silent speed bump)

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>For whoever said that no software uses DP, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

OS X automatically uses DP. </strong><hr></blockquote>It's virtually useless unless the software is multi-threaded. You can run two compute-intensive programs at once faster. But your non-multi-threaded apps aren't going to be faster.



BTW, did anyone else notice the fairly hefty price increases that go along with these machines?

[quote]Originally posted by cthulu:
<strong>Well the 867 cant be on a 166 bus its still 133.The 1 gig could be 166 and the 1.25 must be.
Which means those who cant aford a 3300 computer are screwed once again.Since most software doesnt use the second processor and most programs that do get only a modest boost this is in reality a sorry 67 mghz bump.Pathetic.This deserves two faces!</strong><hr></blockquote>

What part of your a** did you pull "67 mghz bump" [sic] from?

Even if you aren't counting the extra processor, 1250 - 1000 = 250 (I write this out because obviously you can't do simple subtraction.)

In any event you must factor in the added bandwidth of the 166MHz MaxBus, (maybe even 333Mhz, effectively either a 33MHz or a 200MHz bump) and the reduced latency and speed of 333MHz DDR RAM.

It is you, who is pathetic. With Jaguar this new beast is going to be kickin'.

::whistle::
Boy, this thread sure did get angry quick.....

i saw a price decrease. don't know about you but know i get an extra chip for the same or less price.

If this is the true speed bumps without a decent DDR boost it is simply the biggest load of BS Apple has ever spilled. Pure and Simple............

For all you saying " it's all right really" need help. Me I waited since last year to update. Jobs could stick this up his arse and I will go buy a PC until he sorts this fiasco out.

OS X 10.2 is a great update but this news, if true makes it meaningless in the real world.

It's a disgrace.. nothing less............

There are you people happy? Enough with the Manic Depressive posts!


Please!!!!!

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: hmurchison ]</p>

Next person to use the smiley in here gets their posting access turned off for a day.

It's a ****ing computer. Get over it.

[quote]Originally posted by Moonraker:
<strong>If this is the true speed bumps without a decent DDR boost it is simply the biggest load of BS Apple has ever spilled. Pure and Simple............

For all you saying " it's all right really" need help. Me I waited since last year to update. Jobs could stick this up his arse and I will go buy a PC until he sorts this fiasco out.

OS X 10.2 is a great update but this news, if true makes it meaningless in the real world.

It's a disgrace.. nothing less............</strong><hr></blockquote>


Enjoy your date with the Dell Dude, Dude. Don't trip over your skirt on the way out.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[quote]Originally posted by Agent Cooper:
<strong>
Bottom line - I'm buying a PowerMac when they're announced tomorrow. And so are quite a few of you. If you want to wait - coolio. If you want to switch to PC so you can have a 3Ghz peice of garbage that processes Wintel vomit </strong><hr></blockquote>

SWITCH You said the magic word!!!!

We need to enlarge the base of mac users!!! The more we'll be the stronger we are!!!
We are not living in a closed world apart from the reality of the market!!
We need to have a solid base of users in order to push programmers to develop applications on our platform.
Do you really think that more people will go to the mac with those pricing and specifications???
The megahertz gap is a reality for normal people and believe me, if they compare a pricey mac running at 1ghtz against a cheap 3ghtz wintel box the choice will not be at our advantage.

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>Next person to use the smiley in here gets their posting access turned off for a day.

It's a ****ing computer. Get over it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you Jonathan!!!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

[quote]Originally posted by Moonraker:
<strong>If this is the true speed bumps without a decent DDR boost it is simply the biggest load of BS Apple has ever spilled. Pure and Simple............

For all you saying " it's all right really" need help. Me I waited since last year to update. Jobs could stick this up his arse and I will go buy a PC until he sorts this fiasco out.

OS X 10.2 is a great update but this news, if true makes it meaningless in the real world.

It's a disgrace.. nothing less............</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree, BTW 10.2 is finaly getting where it should have been 1 year ago . i've been waiting 3 years now for a decent upgrade. I will pass this one also .

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: salty chips ]</p>