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Collection of *confirmed* Panther info. - Page 6

post #201 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Can you point me to an example of an UI inconsistency?

Finder was multi-threaded from 8.0 on, including copy commands.

Finder from 7.5 through 10.1.x didn't even have its own Find command; it would use File Find or (from 8.5 on) Sherlock. So I don't know what you're talking about.

Thank you for making point. Everyone claims that Mac OS 9.x was better at this or that... I'm pointing out that it took a long time for it to get there.

To answer your questions:

In Mac OS 8, run ClarisWorks 4, Netscape 4.5 and many other apps. Platinum would not display properly. Apple blamed it on the developers. The developers said that there were way many more 7.x users than 8.x users. Moot point after the transition was completed.

Finder multi-threaded? Yes, in theory... in reality, 8.0 Finder would become unusable after a few tasks (Copy, Network access).

Finding Files? You guys are talking about the current Finder still being inadequate. I'm pointing out that it's better at FINDING files than any previous Finder. What do you say about that?

na
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post #202 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by nagha
In Mac OS 8, run ClarisWorks 4, Netscape 4.5 and many other apps. Platinum would not display properly. Apple blamed it on the developers.

Rightly so. It was a matter of custom (hacked) menus.

I don't see what this has to do with the Finder, though.

Quote:
Finder multi-threaded? Yes, in theory... in reality, 8.0 Finder would become unusable after a few tasks (Copy, Network access).

That's a different problem - the Finder was multi-threaded, period. Whether it was poorly optimised is another issue.
post #203 of 228
When MOSR reefers to "we", does he have a little brother next to him or something? Extra points to anyone that remembers the MOSR pre-G4 fiasco.

Regarding these finder follies, DVD Studio Pro is currently doing an entire rewrite of the app into cocoa. They are accomplishing this at a blistering pace, with numerous additions from the previous version. According to this thread, wouldn't it be easier just to modify the current carbon code? I guess not.
post #204 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by mugwump
Regarding these finder follies, DVD Studio Pro is currently doing an entire rewrite of the app into cocoa. They are accomplishing this at a blistering pace, with numerous additions from the previous version. According to this thread, wouldn't it be easier just to modify the current carbon code? I guess not.

From where do you have this information? Sounds strange to me that they would rewrite the whole DSP application to cocoa
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post #205 of 228
"Apple has taken the industry's leading professional DVD authoring tool, DVD Studio Pro, and rewritten it from scratch for Mac OS X and Cocoa, turning it into a completely new product with a breakthrough user interface, said Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. With DVD Studio Pro 2, Apple has redefined DVD authoring again and set a new benchmark for others to measure up to."

link


I imagine that DVDSP is a bit more complex than Finder. Maybe someone better tell the engineers that their approach is simply "political" posturing?
post #206 of 228
Yeah, thats right. Remembered it when I read that. Sorry.

The decision may indeed be "simply political" of course. They show other devs that such a rewrite may indeed be possible, even if the program is large and complex. This will probably make it easier for Apple to try to convince other companies to do the same.

Does anybody know how DVDSP2's performes compared to v1?
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post #207 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
From where do you have this information? Sounds strange to me that they would rewrite the whole DSP application to cocoa

Schiller said it on the presentation stream (for FCP4, DVDSP2 and Shake3) which, btw, was quite an interesting one (I wonder if it's still online?).

Quote:
I imagine that DVDSP is a bit more complex than Finder.

Really? I don't. "The Finder" includes the whole set of architectures of file management for Classic (not sure about this one), Carbon and Cocoa applications (not for POSIX / X11 applications, though). It includes various hooks to the Dock, the global menu bar, the Apple menu, menu extras / status items, the Trash, etc. The Finder's role has decreased with the step from OS 9 to OS X, but it's still a monstrous application, like Explorer.exe is on Windows (kill it and the taskbar, desktop, etc. all disappear).

DVDSP, whilst a fine application (I don't know the 1.x interface much, but from what I've seen in the 2.0 demo, it seems to have a wonderful interface ), doesn't do much more than arrange and embed QT container objects to create a less or more complex menu. I'm not saying that this isn't an important task, but it sure isn't essential for a GUI OS.

It's wonderful that they rewrote DVDSP in Cocoa. It sure enabled them to combine code in a much more convenient way. However, the fact that they did it means absolutely NOTHING to the customer. It doesn't mean more performance, it doesn't mean more features, and it doesn't mean a different pricing by itself. The fact that performance probably DID change, that there ARE more features (some of them being fantastic) and that they (IIRC) lowered pricing doesn't have anything to do with Cocoa vs. Carbon. They could have done the same even if DVDSP was a POSIX application, or written in the Mac OS Classic Toolbox. The differences between DVDSP 1.x and 2.0 are probably so large (especially in the interface, because the large part of such an app *is* the interface) that a rewrite was only for the better, and hardly a waste of time.

To rewrite the Finder, though, would only make sense if they dramatically redefine what the Finder is. Some on this forum have visions of a Finder that presents the file system by its semantics (by the files' and folders' associated metadata), and not by its hierarchy. In such a case, for example, a rewrite would make sense. And if you are to rewrite an application, why not think about using a different framework?
post #208 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Really? I don't. "The Finder" includes the whole set of architectures of file management for Classic (not sure about this one), Carbon and Cocoa applications (not for POSIX / X11 applications, though). It includes various hooks to the Dock, the global menu bar, the Apple menu, menu extras / status items, the Trash, etc. The Finder's role has decreased with the step from OS 9 to OS X, but it's still a monstrous application, like Explorer.exe is on Windows (kill it and the taskbar, desktop, etc. all disappear).

To rewrite the Finder, though, would only make sense if they dramatically redefine what the Finder is. Some on this forum have visions of a Finder that presents the file system by its semantics (by the files' and folders' associated metadata), and not by its hierarchy. In such a case, for example, a rewrite would make sense. And if you are to rewrite an application, why not think about using a different framework?

Say what? Finder hooks into Dock? Menu bar? Apple Menu? Menu Extras? Startup Items? Trash? I'm not aware that ANY of these exist! You can certainly call the finder to open a window (like the dock does sometimes), but that wouldn't be special hooks. I am not aware of ANYTHING in the menu bar or Apple menu that hooks into the Finder. There are Finder services, but ANY application can use them. Last time I checked all the file management in Mac OS X was handled by the Cocoa and Carbon frameworks/APIs.

In other words, I'm pretty sure that Finder.app is a fairly simple application that makes the same calls and behaves like and Mac OS X application.

I agree though that a rewritten Finder would only make sense if Apple wanted a dramatically different Finder.

Barto
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post #209 of 228
macnews.net.tc posted this today:
Quote:
Panther Detail #3 - Appearance

Month old rumours have it that Panther will sport a system-wide brushed metal appearance. While not entirely false, the rumours have spread into some very strange thoughts. Let's clear some things up.

Apple introduced 'Brushed Metal' even before Mac OS X 10.0 was released to some applications in Mac OS 9. QuickTime, Sherlock and iTunes were those first applications. With Mac OS X 10.2 (Jaguar) Apple introduced Brushed Metal as an appearance theme for developers to choose in Interface Builder.

What _really_ will change in Panther will be that the focus of Aqua vs. Brushed Metal will move from a developer's to a user's perspective (although developers, of course, can still define what the default appearance of their apps should be). Apple was asked from several sides to introduce this, most notably from graphics designers who - ever since Aqua was introduced with Mac OS X Developer Preview 4 - asked for a more streamlined look for the OS and applications.

Apple is addressing this in several ways in Panther. First, Aqua (Blue and Graphite) will become more toned down and even less 3D. Jaguar already flattened the buttons a bit, Panther will (slightly, not to break the _positive_ sides of Aqua) go a bit further, flattening buttons, shadows and transparencies (although not completely).
Second: The user can choose between Blue & Graphite, but the user can also choose between Aqua (toned down) and Brushed Metal (toned down). Apple's own applications will preferrably be held in Brushed Metal, but you'll be able to change this system-wide (in System Preferences) and per application (in the app's prefs).

Our sources have mixed emotions about this, apparently. One wants to be quoted as saying: "I'd rather have only to choose between Aqua and Graphite, with Graphite turning into a even more toned down Brushed Metal. But Apple isn't doing itself a favour with enabling the user to mix and (mis)match the styles."

We'll see soon enough, when Steve enters the keynote stage at WWDC in less than a month.
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post #210 of 228
Hmm, so what do you people think about the possibility of individually selecting either brushed metal or aqua for apps. I think this is somewhat better than the current solution wich is kind of a mess right now. You like brushed metal - choose brushed metal, like aqua - choose aqua.
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post #211 of 228
I want my windows to ripple like water as I resize and drag them.
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post #212 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Dog Almighty
I want my windows to ripple like water as I resize and drag them.

Please don't say that to any of Apple's aqua programmers. They might keel over and die of a heart attack
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post #213 of 228
lol, yeah. I saw those zooty effects being put into Longhorn. Looks really stupid and jazzy.
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post #214 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Barto
In other words, I'm pretty sure that Finder.app is a fairly simple application that makes the same calls and behaves like and Mac OS X application.

Barto is correct. Chucker's assumptions are wrong.

I quit the Finder all the time and it affects nothing. Steve himself made it clear in the January 2000 MacWorld San Francisco (the one that introduced Aqua) that the new Finder was "just another app" and that is is no longer a necessary piece of the system. It can just as well be replaced with another file management app and not be used at all.

In fact, right now I'm not running Finder and everything else is working perfectly.


LL
post #215 of 228
*realizes he said bullcrap*
*admits it*
*shuts up*
post #216 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
*realizes he said bullcrap*
*admits it*
*shuts up*

Wow. Wouldn't expect to see that coming from you, Big C. Especially the "admit" part.

Just teasin' you. :P

Anyways - the whole metadata browsing idea seems neat. But I think they better fix the current bugs before adding new features. Such as copying files to a SMB share. *shudders* I've had serious data corruption/loss occur doing that.
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post #217 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Barto
In other words, I'm pretty sure that Finder.app is a fairly simple application that makes the same calls and behaves like and Mac OS X application.

The most challenging part of Finder is, I bet, AppleScript support. What concerns Finder as an app, yes, it is just another application. It can even be easily replaced with a different app by changing the only line in one of configuration files.
There is, however, a problem with some other apps expecting Finder to be running.
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post #218 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by m01ety
Wow. Wouldn't expect to see that coming from you, Big C. Especially the "admit" part.

Just teasin' you. :P

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What are you doing in here, btw?
post #219 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Hmm, so what do you people think about the possibility of individually selecting either brushed metal or aqua for apps. I think this is somewhat better than the current solution wich is kind of a mess right now. You like brushed metal - choose brushed metal, like aqua - choose aqua.

I'll be interested to see how they pull it off. One thing that's become obvious is that the two themes work best with substantially different toolbar icon styles, etc. I can only imagine that the "floating button" of the original Aqua (e.g., the Finder toolbar icons) will be replaced with actual button-looking objects system-wide, since metal pretty much requires them.

That, or Apple will require developers to provide two sets of icons.
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post #220 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
I can only imagine that the "floating button" of the original Aqua (e.g., the Finder toolbar icons) will be replaced with actual button-looking objects system-wide

That would be a funny violation of their own current Aqua UI guidelines, which state that "every toolbar icon should have a unique shape" (which is why they don't have borders around them).

Of course, every Brushed Metal application already *does* violate multiple parts... example:

"Brushed Metal works well with Aqua widgets. Therefore, creating custom widgets should be avoided." - Hello, Safari, iTunes, iMovie, iChat, iSync, iCal, iWhatever.

(note: quotes have been paraphrased as I don't feel like looking up the original text )
post #221 of 228
Another thing that should be standard in all apps, or at least Apple apps with a tool bar, is a) being able to command-drag toolbar widgets to where you want them, and b) to be able to use a 'customize toolbar' option, a la Finder. For example, I would absolutely LOVE Safari if i was able to put the textbigger/textsmaller buttons on the left, and have the back button where i actually want it to be. The finder lets you do that, Safari, etc doesn't.
post #222 of 228
Most of Apple's apps including the metal-themed ones use a standard toolbar. Only the non-toolbar apps (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie) and notably Safari -- which uses a custom toolbar so you can resize the address and Google search bar -- don't use it. There's no reason why metal apps couldn't, shouldn't or wouldn't in Panther. I'd bet that Safari's custom toolbar behavior in Jaguar gets added to NSToolbar in Panther. I'd assume the Finder will finally get a real toolbar in Panther too, but I thought that was coming in Jaguar.
post #223 of 228
RadioLover (crappy name, great stream-ripper) has the option of changing back and forth between Aqua and Brushed Metal in the prefs.

(Goes to see what it looks like in aqua - it defaults into metal and I've never changed it)

Eh, it looks pretty much the same - same icons, etc. I like brushed metal better, tho.
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post #224 of 228
Here we go again. WWDC is almost here, and we still know nothing about Panther. It is really strange, I mean remember Jaguar? We actually knew pretty much about it and had seen some real screenshots etc well before it was announced.

Now apple seems to be (according to rumors) streaming the keynote from wwdc. The unveiling of PPC970 seems to be very controversial. What if there is no new powermac and the keynote will only showcase Panther? In that case the streaming of the keynote would indicate that Panther will really be BIG.

Basically as I see it, there are only two possibilities: We have no information about Panther because it is so big that it is the biggest and best kept secret at Apple, or Panther is going to be (compared to Jaguar) like 10.1 was to 10.0 - a faster and more refined version of Jaguar without any significant changes in its featureset.

-Snowster
post #225 of 228
The Countdown Begins!

7 days, 5 hours, 6 minutes, 34 seconds remaining.

EST, so in San Francisco

7 days, 8 hours, 6 minutes, 34 seconds.
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post #226 of 228
Er, except that you're three hours ahead, so it evens out. Same amount of time until keynote.
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post #227 of 228
Quote:
Another thing that should be standard in all apps, or at least Apple apps with a tool bar, is a) being able to command-drag toolbar widgets to where you want them, and b) to be able to use a 'customize toolbar' option, a la Finder. For example, I would absolutely LOVE Safari if i was able to put the textbigger/textsmaller buttons on the left, and have the back button where i actually want it to be. The finder lets you do that, Safari, etc doesn't

Here here!
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post #228 of 228
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Here here!

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