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iTunes Music Store - Page 4

post #121 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
128 kbit aac is abominable. Personally, I think the music should be distributed 256 kbit for acceptable audio quality. Apple should be using aacPlus too. I'm not sure what the max bitrate for aacPlus, but I think somewhere in the vicinity of 160 kbit aacPlus would be good enough.

AAC+ is designed for low bitrates (i.e. < 96kbps) ideal for streaming applications. It adds SBR to AAC in the same way MP3Pro adds it to MP3.

Both are worse than the originals--edit: that is, AAC (not +) and MP3 (not pro) respectively--at higher bitrates ( > 96kbps).

Think of it like a low gear, it will help you get traction at lower speeds but it won't increase your top speed.

It's a cool tech and would help the ipod increase its capacity if songs were ripped specifically for portable use but wouldn't be appropriate for iTunes Music Store downloads.
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post #122 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Data Compression how fun....

I think the site is clean and well organized but I will not spend money on data-compressed garbage. Sure I listen to MP3's etc after I have a good copy I can play on my home system that is at least wav file quality. I am willing to pay $.99 per song if it were wav format but this data compressed garbage dream on apple.

I will gladly drive to my Virgin Records and enjoy the real store and buy real CD's

If apple would have set this thing up where one could "choose" imagine that..... "choose" the format and keep the $.99 per song price I would use the site to make purchases very very often.

Apple has a dumbed down customer in mind however.

Reminds me of windows. I thought Apple was all about Quality.

Data-compressed files are not worthy of the retail price apple is asking. Period.

Dumbed down kids feel free to prove me wrong. Apple depends on you.

Fellowship

Hmm, where to begin....

DO YOU HAVE ANY DVD'S???? You do realize the audio and video in DVD's is highly compressed right? and do you also understand WAV files? real audio cd's are not wav files, wav files are for Windows Audio/Video. but again, digital cable, directv, dish tv, DVD, are ALL compressed.
post #123 of 163
The quality of mp3/AAC/other compressed formats depends very much on the encoding process. If Apple has access to masters (often of much higher quality than actual shipped CD's (often 24 bit, 96khz)) and is encoding the tracks with higher quality encoders than is available to the public (and therefore requirering more processor power than is acceptable for personal ripping), it is possible that this would lead to higher quality than if it is ripped directly from a CD with iTunes. Yes?
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post #124 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
It has to do with the realities of the music business. It's not us vs. you. The fact that Apple got the 5 major labels to agree to this program is amazing. At the moment artists get different royalties based on country of origin. I would guess that when the music service is localized by country, perhaps then you'll be able to buy product... and some of the product will be more in tune with localized artists of the country of origin as well.

Wait, how's that? If I can go to a CD shop in Moscow and officially buy any CD available, including those from US-only (as opposed to international monsters) labels, I assume they don't have anything against these CDs being sold in Russia. Right? If the shop legally exists, I assume that Russian laws are in agreement with both international and US laws on this part. So there should be no legal issues. Then again, regardless of royalties to artists, their CDs are exported to Russia obviously through consent of their labels. Now can you explain to me if the form in which they are exported matters? I mean physical form vs electronic. <rant>It just maddens me to think that my damn credit card cannot buy what I legally want. What the ü©k is this?! Why doesn't this damn PetitionOnline.com accept my vote?! I don't want localized download service, I don't want local mainstream 'artists', I want to be able to spend my money the way I like! Damn. </rant>
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post #125 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
Don't you have artists in Germany that don't have large followings in the U.S. or say, Japan? What I'm trying to say is that to be a better service in your country the Music Store needs to take those things into consideration I believe.

Of course. For example, by deciding that Tom Waits is not so popular in Russia and excluding his repertoire from Russia.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard & InactionMan
No Beatles. No Rolling Stones.
No Beastie Boys?

That's what I'm talking about. Who needs Beatles? To hell with Rollings! Beastie Boys don't sing in Russian, so we'll censor this title out. Do I have the right to listen to Beastie Boys or not, damn it? You say the catalog will get larger? Of course, it will. Just gimme the phone number of the god I should pray to.
Quote:
I think you'll see your own store (just as you have a local Apple Store website).

I am sorry, MacsRGood4U, but the pathetic state of Apple.ru suggests that it's never going to happen at all. Either Apple.us gets theirs together or we won't see anything. Point.
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post #126 of 163
Gene Steinberg in his Mac Night Owl site reports that Apple's deal with the labels is only for one year. It is in effect an "experiment". I spoke to a friend at one of the labels and he told me that the agreement signed was only for the U.S.

If things go well - and that's a big question mark, then the labels will negotiate seperate deals for the different territories. Monies earned from the music store will go to the individual companies in each country. Although many here don't seem to understand it, there are rights issues and even song copyright issues for each country and artist.
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post #127 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Data Compression how fun....

I think the site is clean and well organized but I will not spend money on data-compressed garbage. Sure I listen to MP3's etc after I have a good copy I can play on my home system that is at least wav file quality. I am willing to pay $.99 per song if it were wav format but this data compressed garbage dream on apple.

What's a "wav file quality" MP3? And why can't an AAC file be "wav file quality"?

You'd pay 99 cents to sit through a 50 megabyte download of a song?
post #128 of 163
Why can't you browse the store through a web browser? They should at least let everyone see what they have on sale, even if you have to use iTunes to pay...

Seems like a dumb move to me.
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post #129 of 163
I think it is a great move. Gets mac users not using OS X to take another look at moving up. Gets a PC user to possibly get on a mac to take a peek. It's all good.
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post #130 of 163
There are still mac users not on os X?
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post #131 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnHenry
There are still mac users not on os X?

Of course. There are still some people using 9 out there.
post #132 of 163
Copyright sucks (more specifically abuse of copyrights by copyright "owners" sucks), that's pretty established. Copyright is what's preventing Apple from setting up music stores in non-US countries. They have to negotiate with the right-holders in Canada, Europe, England, Australia etc before they can set up shop there.

Barto
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post #133 of 163
I am hoping to see a wider selection of artists and soundtracks. Good job Apple!
post #134 of 163
Quote:
I am hoping to see a wider selection of artists and soundtracks

I`m sure there will be soon. My theory right now is that Apple did`nt want to put billions of songs on there just to find out its going to flop. 200k songs are plenty enough to test and see if the service is going to be a "hit" or not. After this is when they will probably expand the archive and release it to other countries and windows.
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post #135 of 163
It's kind of amazing to me that they were able to keep the lid on the Apple Music Store. No details really leaked even though there were a lot of companies involved. 200,000 songs, album covers, AAC ripping from masters, etc.
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post #136 of 163
My worries:

I'm not too keen on all the partial albums and per song albums. I am only interested in whole albums. This just seems like some sort of scam to get people to pay a buck a song for a whole album.

A lot of missing content. If this is the support that the major labels gave Apple, I am not at all impressed. We'll see if the content diversifies over time. I hope so, because right now a friend with a decent sized cd collection and similar music tastes to me will have more to offer me than the music store.

I am not at all cool with the controls that have been put in place here. I'll be the first to admit that I can't tell the difference between 192K MP3 and CD. So I may buy a couple albums here and there from the music store. But I am very reluctant to build a music library around this system. Okay, AAC is good now. Where will it be in ten years? What kinds of compromises will I have to make in converting from AAC to a new standard? In particular decompression-compression artifacting seems to be a potentially big problem. In fact, that seems to be part of the way Apple sold the service to the distributors! Second, the ability to shift the music between computers seems to depend on Apple being around to handle the authorization issues. What happens if Apple goes under in the next 10 to 15 years? What happens if they lose interest in this music business? 10 years is a long time in this business, but I have many 10 year old CD's that I listen to frequently.

Given all this uncertainty, I think that 10 bucks a CD is a little much. How about 6-8 bucks? Anyways, I applaud Apple for showing a way in an industry run by idiots.
post #137 of 163
What happens when CD's are obsolete? What happens if you can't buy CD players anymore? What happens when you lose your job and have to sell all of your music to eat?

So many questions. So little time.
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post #138 of 163
CDs are data rich, mostly unprotected, and an established format. I am confident that there will be a transition path from CDs to the next standard, whether it it is officially sanctioned or not.

Also, Apple has dumped many next-big-thing projects. In fact, other posts here suggest that this is only a one year trial run. Furthermore, any number of up-and-coming internet distribution businesses have gone under. While Apple is on a lot more solid ground than them, they most certainly are not invulnerable. Meanwhile, I have yet to be fired. Sure, it could happen tomorrow. If that happens I will have a lot easier time selling my CD's than AAC DRM protected songs.
post #139 of 163
Apple did a fantastic job with the musicstore, considering it's 2 days old now. If you look at what Apple attempted (create a legal Napster) then they're very much on target - with content being added everyday.
They did not try to stop people from buying CDs...just offer the instant gratification that you got from searching/downloading a song off Napster,etc.
They aren't trying to dupe "audiophiles" into downloading music (as if any true audiophiles were ex-Napster users...)
If you are willing to drop $1 on a 20oz. wild cherry pepsi, then paying for a song you've had stuck in your head to listen: on the commute home/on your dinner date that evening/at the gym/and bring back fond memories...whatever...i think it's reasonable

and if you have a beef w/ the price, $.65 goes to the label, so get on their case for lower prices!
post #140 of 163
It seems they are actually going to build iTunes for PC.
Apple seeking coder to port iTunes to Windows

Quote:
According to the Mac maker's employment opportunities site, the company is seeking a Senior Software Engineer. His or her key responsibility: "Design and build Apple's newest Consumer Application, iTunes for Windows."
post #141 of 163
Quote:
It seems they are actually going to build iTunes for PC.
Apple seeking coder to port iTunes to Windows

Sneaking suspicion that the Windows version will appear be before international support for mac users.

It's not all Apples fault though, I think that the greedy b@stard record labels are more to fault

I can't wait to give my credit card a good flexing when it is available...... One problem though, is that I'm after a copy of Strange Boutique by the Monochrome Set (have it on knackered vinyl) and they don't have it in the store!!!
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post #142 of 163
what is the quality comparison between a bought cd and a cd that is downloaded?
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post #143 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ast3r3x
what is the quality comparison between a bought cd and a cd that is downloaded?

As if you're concerned about download quality...

Everyone on AI knows you're the piracy king.

Anyway, most people can't hear the difference in quality, but some can hear the difference (some people can even hear the difference between CDs and DATs, which were even higher quality). Downloaded AAC quality is still loads better than casette tapes ever were.
post #144 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Anyway, most people can't hear the difference in quality,

There is some discussion about this on Apple's help forums.

While it is hard to cut through the static of audiophile whingers, who wouldn't be caught dead listening to 128kbps audio, there are some sensible sounding people who claim that songs they rip from their own CDs with iTunes @ 128 AAC sound noticeably better than the same song bought from Apple. This should be the other way round assuming that Apple are using a pro encoder.

Interestingly this seems to be a variable effect with no real pattern. Some downloads sound great, some sound "terrible".

Could just be quality control gremlins and teething trouble.

--

Just to clarify, "terrible" in terms of this debate apparently means you can tell the difference between it and the original CD if you play them at the same time and switch between them. I'm more interested in whether the 'artifacts' draw attention to themselves when listened to during normal use. After all, I can clearly tell the difference between AAC@128 and CD. (The difference being that I will be able to fit 10x as much music on my iPod with AAC@128).
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post #145 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by failedmathematician
I'm not too keen on all the partial albums and per song albums. I am only interested in whole albums. This just seems like some sort of scam to get people to pay a buck a song for a whole album.

A lot of missing content. If this is the support that the major labels gave Apple, I am not at all impressed. We'll see if the content diversifies over time. I hope so, because right now a friend with a decent sized cd collection and similar music tastes to me will have more to offer me than the music store.

Give it some time. The music store has been running for, what, 2 days? They started with a fair collection of songs. There's no reason not to believe the line that the labels are testing the waters here as well. I think the music store's success will warm them up and encourage them to allow more full albums (and more artists).

Quote:
Okay, AAC is good now. Where will it be in ten years? What kinds of compromises will I have to make in converting from AAC to a new standard?

8-tracks and tapes were good at one point. Where are they now? Did you bother converting them to the new formats? Why concern yourself with converting AAC to a new standard? I'm not converting my mass of MP3s to AAC.

Quote:
Second, the ability to shift the music between computers seems to depend on Apple being around to handle the authorization issues. What happens if Apple goes under in the next 10 to 15 years? What happens if they lose interest in this music business? 10 years is a long time in this business, but I have many 10 year old CD's that I listen to frequently.

I'm not altogether sure Apple has to be around to handle authorization issues. Has anyone done any investigation into this? Besides, your concern has mainly to do with listening to music on potentially unauthorized computers. Your music, however, is free from control on iPods and CDs. If you burn a CD, you can still listen to it all you want if Apple goes under.
post #146 of 163
Personally I have a really good (bad?) ear for digital distortion. I can handle static on a cassette, but 'watery' digital audio just drives me nuts. So far 128 AAC hasn't bothered me, but I only have 3 songs. If they were some of the better 'rips' then that makes sense. Normally I listen to 160 KBS VBR MP3s and it's fine when your headphones are competing with traffic, train noises and other things like that.
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post #147 of 163
It looks like my dreams of indie content in the iTMS may one day come true. This is from Dick Huey, Consulting VP of New Media for Beggars Group, :


"iTunes and Matador

Patrick asked me to respond to you on Matador's plans to be involved with the iTunes subscription service.

The short answer is Apple hasn't asked to license Matador music yet, and it's not because we were barking up the wrong tree for the last couple months. I think it was probably all Apple could do given the resources they made available for this project to roll it out with the Major content they had.

It's a drag that Apple chose to focus their huge publicity blast on artists that so desperately need promotion (Eminen?) but we're definitely interested in being involved and I hope it won't belong until you see Matador music up there as well. Meantime, we frequently get Matador music in the QuickTime features section, and there's always AVDeck (www.avdeck.com) to check out if you're jonesing for pre-release Mata-sounds in QuickTime format..."


Beggars Group also owns/represent 4AD, Beggars Banquet, XL and Mo' Wax records. Here's hoping it's not too long before Apple gets around to licensing music from these labels.
post #148 of 163
What happens when you buy music at the Apple Store, burn to a CD, then rip back to MP3 (or any other format for that matter)?

If the quality of those rips is acceptable, you shouldn't be worried if Apple will call it quits/pull the plug on the Music store after a few years.

Even if you leave your Apple Store music on cds, you'll still be able to enjoy it for years. CDs will be around for ages. You can still buy brand new 8-tracks (saw them at Best Buy) and cassettes. We'll have CD players well into the year 3000 I guess. (Okay that's a reach).
post #149 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by monkeyastronaut
What happens when you buy music at the Apple Store, burn to a CD, then rip back to MP3 (or any other format for that matter)?

If the quality of those rips is acceptable, you shouldn't be worried if Apple will call it quits/pull the plug on the Music store after a few years.

Even if you leave your Apple Store music on cds, you'll still be able to enjoy it for years. CDs will be around for ages. You can still buy brand new 8-tracks (saw them at Best Buy) and cassettes. We'll have CD players well into the year 3000 I guess. (Okay that's a reach).

I tried this and posted my results somewhere back on page 2 or 3. It works fine. An extra step and a wasted cd-r (will have to use cd-rw's for this, methinks), but the quality is acceptable, especially if you're going to be listening to the results in a less than ideal atmosphere (your car, for example).
post #150 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by pesi
precisely. it's generally accepted that human hearing drops off at aroun 17 kHz

More precisely, it's known that very high frequencies are used to locate and pinpoint particular sounds. They're not interpreted as notes.

That would explain why some people perceive the encoded songs as fuzzy or vague or muddy.

The high frequencies are the first to go when your hearing fails, so if you have trouble picking out a person's speech in a crowded restaurant, you'll likely never notice the loss of frequencies above 16k.
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post #151 of 163
Torifile,

You did the test I was interested in. So I take it that the Forbes.com comment that mp3 conversions would sound like crap is not true. Call me paranoid; I was just worried they had some hidden data-scrambling going on.

Have you done any tests comparing MusicStoreAAC and MusicStoreAAC -> audio CD -> AAC?
post #152 of 163
Well, the info I posted about Matador/Beggars interest in iTunes ended up on MacRumors. Maybe that'll speed the process up and get a little more attention for the good people at Matador. Besides, the companies already have a connection-Liz Phair was in the original ads for iTunes, Liz Phair is on Matador, I love both Matador and apple, it would make me happy if Matador was on iTMS and Steve Jobs only wants to make me happy. Hooray for Everything.
post #153 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by failedmathematician
Torifile,

You did the test I was interested in. So I take it that the Forbes.com comment that mp3 conversions would sound like crap is not true. Call me paranoid; I was just worried they had some hidden data-scrambling going on.

Have you done any tests comparing MusicStoreAAC and MusicStoreAAC -> audio CD -> AAC?

No, but I can do it later tonight if you're interested. I'd imagine that there would be some loss of quality if I encode at the same bitrate (128 ), but I'll give it a go. Please note that I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination so take my opinions/results with a grain of salt.
post #154 of 163
Apple should offer a few radio channels that just stream AAC audio. A random rotation of songs, perhaps one channel per genre. A good way to push the AAC codec.
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post #155 of 163
Thanks Torifile,

Really though, I'll probably do the test myself as soon as I get some free time. No point in asking you to do something I could just as easily do myself.
post #156 of 163
This iTunes Music Store thing is all too addictive! I wish there would be a way for a user to set a spending limit or alarm...



I agree with some of the posts above that there are way too many partial albums. I am sure this has something to do with the current Music Studios licensing scheme, but I hope this gets solved soon, specially if all of us having this particular issue send some feedback to Apple.

I know that one shouldn't expect to find 100% of the songs we are after (same thing goes for a regular music store), but there is a band which is seemingly missing: Propellerheads. Just for the reason that one of their songs "Take California" was featured on the very first iPod/iTunes TV ad. I just sent some requests about quite a few missing bands.
post #157 of 163
I bought 2 songs so far. Overall speaking, Apple did a good job on content and layout design. Right now, the store is limited to Mac OS X 10.2 users (more than 5M).

I do own a lot of CDs and sometimes I rip them in 320k MP3 format, but most of them in 192k (VBR). Then, put all the CDs under the bed or some storage area.

Meanwhile, I also borrow CDs from my local library then store them in my iTunes library. Is it legal? I guess. Moreover, I rarely share music over the Internet.
post #158 of 163
Absolutely gorgeous, just bought my first 18 songs from the iTunes Music store, found a smattering of artists across most of the genres I enjoy, and they all sound quite good.

It is entirely too easy to drop about $20 at a time without thinking about it, though, he he. According to the numbers on Billboard, Apple sold over 275,000 songs in the first 18 hours, and it's easy to see why.

I like the idea of streaming radio stations for each genre, apple should look into that.

Also, funnily enough, I brought my powerbook into class today and hooked up to the school network. I popped open itunes, and sure enough, no fewer than four shared libraries at my disposal, from freaks around the building on the network. Bumping myself onto the campus-wide lan revealed just fewer than 100 available. That was fast, yes?

ciao,

michael
post #159 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth

Meanwhile, I also borrow CDs from my local library then store them in my iTunes library. Is it legal? I guess. Moreover, I rarely share music over the Internet.

how could you possibly think that's legal?
post #160 of 163
i think some folks are forgetting that this isn't meant to REPLACE retail CD's. it's more of a complement to, with super-high potential. no way the record labels were going to put out super-high quality rips and let them get out into the mainstream on an untested model. but once they start seeing the money they are raking in for very little effort, well, i believe you'll start seeing an increase in quality and additional features. plus, sometimes, i really love a well-designed cd case and booklet art as much as the music it encases. maybe i'm just odd that way...
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
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-...
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