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Can I burn a CD of "bought" music?

post #1 of 74
Thread Starter 
Does anyone KNOW (i.e. not speculate)?
post #2 of 74
You can even burn a DVD if you want. Awesome.
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post #3 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by Chopper3
Does anyone KNOW (i.e. not speculate)?

It says all over the place that you can burn unlimited CDs. What more do you want?
post #4 of 74
So if I download a bunch of AAC-encoded files and burn them to a CD, can I play them back on anything but another Mac? Will MP3-capable CD players handle AAC files?

(Or is this the answer to music downloading security: you can burn all the CDs you want, but they won't play back on any existing player?)
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You can never justify the cost of building a bridge by counting the number of people swimming across the river.
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post #5 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It says all over the place that you can burn unlimited CDs. What more do you want?

Yeah, but does it burn CDs with some sort of copy-protection, or are songs on the CDs free-as-in-speech? If you can really burn to a CD then rip back into whatever (say, mp3) for use in whatever (say, any other mp3 or mp3-CD player), that seals the deal for me. Way to go Apple. Lower the prices just a tad and they will have built the perfect online music distribution system. But that seems a little too transparent a circumvention for the RIAA to have swallowed.

Has anyone tried burning CDs yet? Is this for real?

Edit: Speech. Free-as-in-speech. Sounds like Towel's had too much of the free beer today.
post #6 of 74
You'll be able to play them on anything that can handle AAC files...so Macs and iPods are in, and you'll have to check the players themselves for other devices. Just use mp3s if you are very concerned about compatibility.
post #7 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by Voxapps
So if I download a bunch of AAC-encoded files and burn them to a CD, can I play them back on anything but another Mac? Will MP3-capable CD players handle AAC files?

(Or is this the answer to music downloading security: you can burn all the CDs you want, but they won't play back on any existing player?)

if you burn the AACs as an audio CD, it'll play in anything.

burning an album full of AACs will only play back on a device which supports AAC CDs, of which there are none... besides a Mac that is.

any MP3 player will need a firmware update in order to play AAC files (like the iPod update that was released today)

as for whether companies will actually update their products, it's anybody's guess. if the new service takes off, you bet your ass they will. if the store's a success and they don't, they might as well close up shop.
post #8 of 74
From a Fortune.com article today:

And anybody who tries to upload iTunes Music Store songs onto KaZaA will be shocked. Each song is encrypted with a digital key so that it can be played only on three authorized computers, and that prevents songs from being transferred online. Even if you burn the AAC songs onto a CD that a conventional CD player can read and then re-rip them back into standard MP3 files, the sound quality is awful.
post #9 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by murbot
From a Fortune.com article today:

And anybody who tries to upload iTunes Music Store songs onto KaZaA will be shocked. Each song is encrypted with a digital key so that it can be played only on three authorized computers, and that prevents songs from being transferred online. Even if you burn the AAC songs onto a CD that a conventional CD player can read and then re-rip them back into standard MP3 files, the sound quality is awful.

If that is true then Apple has done it! They've created DRM that doesn't affect how I can uses the Audio but prevents Filesharing. To the user who simply wants good Audio in their home or Car ...they have everything they need. But to those who want to fileshare....bzzzzzt. Won't work.

Apple's going to make a mint. I'm down with this. As long as I can burn CDs for myself and utilize the music the way I want to I don't care about sharing it. Kudos Apple!
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post #10 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
If that is true then Apple has done it! They've created DRM that doesn't affect how I can uses the Audio but prevents Filesharing. To the user who simply wants good Audio in their home or Car ...they have everything they need. But to those who want to fileshare....bzzzzzt. Won't work.

Apple's going to make a mint. I'm down with this. As long as I can burn CDs for myself and utilize the music the way I want to I don't care about sharing it. Kudos Apple!

Not true. If this is true, it's VERY VERY uncool. I've got an mp3/cd player in my car and I love burning cds full of my own mp3's. It's like having a cd changer in my deck. If this is true, I'm going to be very unhappy. I guess I'll have to try it and see.
post #11 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
Not true. If this is true, it's VERY VERY uncool. I've got an mp3/cd player in my car and I love burning cds full of my own mp3's. It's like having a cd changer in my deck. If this is true, I'm going to be very unhappy. I guess I'll have to try it and see.

well, it's only uncool because your car stereo doesn't support AAC. if it did, you'd have no problems.
post #12 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by pesi
well, it's only uncool because your car stereo doesn't support AAC. if it did, you'd have no problems.

No, it's uncool because the mp3's I rip from a cd I own will be unplayable. I'm talking about taking an 'audio' cd and converting it to mp3. There should be no difference between the cd I buy in best buy and the one I download from apple. But I guess that means I HAVE to buy cds so I can rip them the way I want (or download stuff from P2P's).
post #13 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by murbot
From a Fortune.com article today:

Even if you burn the AAC songs onto a CD that a conventional CD player can read and then re-rip them back into standard MP3 files, the sound quality is awful.

This sounds like BS to me.

Maybe that's what they're telling the music labels but I suppose we won't have to wait long for someone to prove this either way.
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #14 of 74
How is the "only three macs" provision enforced? I keep my music on a portable hard drive which I can plug into any of several computers (home, office, lab) which get upgraded frequently. Is this going to prevent me from doing that? Is it really three computers or is it three hard drives? And what happens when you upgrade computers?
post #15 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
No, it's uncool because the mp3's I rip from a cd I own will be unplayable. I'm talking about taking an 'audio' cd and converting it to mp3. There should be no difference between the cd I buy in best buy and the one I download from apple. But I guess that means I HAVE to buy cds so I can rip them the way I want (or download stuff from P2P's).

um... no... MP3s you rip from your own CDs will still certainly be playable. iTunes 4 doesn't change anything with what you currently own.

oh wait... you think you're buying a CD from Apple? you're not. you're buying a new format digital download. bitching about not being able to play a new format in an old device is tantamount to bitching about not being able to play CDs in a cassette deck.
post #16 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
No, it's uncool because...

You're confusing me by using CD to refer to 'a collection of songs' (I think) but to be clear: it won't stop you ripping a physically bought CD to mp3 and, as I speculate in the post above, from my knowledge of audio codecs, that quote is pure BS and you will be able to rip aac -> CD -> mp3 (or even directly if you don't use iTunes) so chill, it appears the Apple DRM is simply to keep the lazy and stupid (aka honest) people honest.
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post #17 of 74
As long as I can AAC on a future version of this I'm cool.



WM is now showing up in Car Audio decks...it's only a matter of time before AAC does. Once iTunes for PC comes out it's a whole new ballgame.
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post #18 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by JBL
How is the "only three macs" provision enforced? I keep my music on a portable hard drive which I can plug into any of several computers (home, office, lab) which get upgraded frequently. Is this going to prevent me from doing that? Is it really three computers or is it three hard drives? And what happens when you upgrade computers?

more specifically, it's three copies of iTunes... i really don't know how the external HD thing would work.

Steve mentioned in the broadcast that i saw that you can "deauthorize" an old computer. so when you buy a new Mac, you copy all your files over, deauthorize the old machine and authorize the new.
post #19 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by JBL
Is it really three computers or is it three hard drives? And what happens when you upgrade computers?

It appears to be keyed to the MAC address or some other hardware based fingerprint, so three computers it is (plus rendezvous-enabled sharing).

Somewhere on apple.com it mentions de-registering computers when you upgrade so they've thought of that.
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post #20 of 74
good fortune article...

hard to believe the RDF effects even record industry flaks...

it'll be interesting to see how the encryption-for-three-macs works out... must be keys in the new iTunes and QT AAC codecs... and the encoding must be done at the store end, because if you can rip a current cd into AAC, you should still be able to copy it an unlimited number of times.

plus, a "counter reset" script can't be too hard...
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post #21 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb

plus, a "counter reset" script can't be too hard...

not if the counter is maintained by Apple on their servers.
post #22 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
Not true. If this is true, it's VERY VERY uncool. I've got an mp3/cd player in my car and I love burning cds full of my own mp3's. It's like having a cd changer in my deck. If this is true, I'm going to be very unhappy. I guess I'll have to try it and see.

what you will have to do, is convert the AAC files to MP3, but I think the reason they say they wont sound as good, is because the AAC codec sounds better than the MP3 codec, so you will lose some quality.
post #23 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by pesi
more specifically, it's three copies of iTunes... i really don't know how the external HD thing would work.

Steve mentioned in the broadcast that i saw that you can "deauthorize" an old computer. so when you buy a new Mac, you copy all your files over, deauthorize the old machine and authorize the new.

also, from what I have seen, if you use Rendevous to share your library, you will have to authorize those other macs to use the songs as well(I have confirmed this, I bought 4 songs today that I have been looking for(I had crappy versions). and I had to authorize them to listen to them on my laptop using Rendevous
post #24 of 74
Well in the Fortune article they say you can send to unlimited songs to iPods(well limited by your financial means). Hard Drives should be the same. Since HDs don't have a CPU they cannot share the files illegally and if you dump the files on another Mac they won't play because of the authorization. Apple has covered most of the bases here. I'm sure more needs to be fleshed out however.
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post #25 of 74
I think everyone's misunderstanding me. I mean I buy some tracks from apple. I need to get them to mp3's so that I can play them in my car. I could do that directly and suffer some quality loss I guess. Now that I think about it, converting it to an audio cd and then to mp3 from that cd would be the same. So the big question is: how much loss are we talking? Or is it even possible? If not, I'll have to do the aac -> audio cd -> mp3 and if the quality loss isn't commensurate with a typical lossy to lossy conversion, then I'm pissed. (n.b. I'm willing to deal with the typical lossy to lossy degradation. I'm not willing to deal with artificial loss.) Does that make more sense?

-t

ps - I'm not bitching about not being able to play aac files in my car. I'm not much of a bitcher.

edit: I know that iTunes won't prevent me from ripping any cd to mp3. I was just hoping that I would be able to do this with tracks I buy from Apple. Still holding out hope...
post #26 of 74
The original post does not deserve 30 posts. Here's 31 to clear everything up:

You can burn as many audio CDs as you want, period. iTunes converts any of your music files, no matter the file format, to AIFF files to make an audio CD. (All audio CDs are comprised of AIFF files., that's what makes them official CD Audio.)

The sharing limitations are such:

You can only burn the same playlist to CDs 10 times. You can burn the tracks as much as you want, this applies only to the playlist as defined in iTunes or the iPod.

You can only copy the downloaded AAC file from the iTunes Music Store (Love the name, BTW. Simple!) to three other computers. Once you burn it to a CD, it's not an AAC file, it's an AIFF file, so the that's probably a loophole. Audio CDs do not count as "computers" anyway and neither do iPods as I understand. This restriction is in the AAC file itself, a digital "signature" added to it, and it's just one reason why Apple chose to use AAC over MP3 or other formats. So you can speculate how it works, whether at the application level (iTunes or MusicMatch) or at the filesystem (external HD) level. I'm betting on the former.

I don't understand why this would be a problem for you, torifile. The Audio CD file is no longer the AAC file. AFAIK, it can't contain the metadata the AAC file can, therefore it can't contain the digital security measure. I could be wrong, this is just how I understand it.
post #27 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
I don't understand why this would be a problem for you, torifile. The Audio CD file is no longer the AAC file. AFAIK, it can't contain the metadata the AAC file can, therefore it can't contain the digital security measure. I could be wrong, this is just how I understand it.

My concern wasn't about the burning of the tracks to audio. I know that they'll be .aiff files. I was responding (somewhat prematurely, perhaps) to the quote from Forbes saying that there is a large degradation in sound quality should a track be ripped to mp3 from an audio cd track that was originally an .aac file. Whether or not this is true, or even possible (I don't see how it would be, but ....) I'm not sure. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
post #28 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto


You can only burn the same playlist to CDs 10 times.


this seems to be a big problem for some people, so here's some clarity.

You may not burn the same playlist 10 times in a row


now back to your regular scheduled forum whoring 8)
post #29 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by liquidh2o
this seems to be a big problem for some people, so here's some clarity.

You may not burn the same playlist 10 times in a row


now back to your regular scheduled forum whoring 8)

Where did you hear this? I'd love for it to be true.
post #30 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
Where did you hear this? I'd love for it to be true.

http://www.apple.com/music/store/


bottom of page

"burn unlimited CDs of individual songs, and burn unchanged playlists up to 10 times each."

move a song around, or create a new playlist, then re-create the old one.
post #31 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
My concern wasn't about the burning of the tracks to audio. I know that they'll be .aiff files. I was responding (somewhat prematurely, perhaps) to the quote from Forbes saying that there is a large degradation in sound quality should a track be ripped to mp3 from an audio cd track that was originally an .aac file. Whether or not this is true, or even possible (I don't see how it would be, but ....) I'm not sure. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

You're obviously not understanding the concept of lossy compression. Once the original AIFF file on the CD is ripped to a AAC (M4A, whatever you want to call it ) audio file, quality is lost that cannot be regained if you are using that AAC audio file. Now, if you convert the compressed format to another lossy compression format (MP3) yet more quality is lost that cannot be regained, on top of the already lost quality. You get the same effect when you copy a compressed JPEG and compress it once more into JPEG. Even if you set it at the same quality level both times, the second compression will recompress the already compressed data (which has artifacts and such) and create yet more artifacts. The same thing happens when you go from one compressed lossy audio format to another; the quality that was lost and replaced with imprefections isn't magically regained only to be encoded once more. It just doesn't work that way.

That being said, I converted my entire library to AAC some time ago (it's pretty small.) It was mostly 192KBs MP3 to 128KB/s AAC. Your hearing is not as acute as your vision, I can hardly tell the difference.
post #32 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
I think everyone's misunderstanding me. I mean I buy some tracks from apple. I need to get them to mp3's so that I can play them in my car. I could do that directly and suffer some quality loss I guess. Now that I think about it, converting it to an audio cd and then to mp3 from that cd would be the same. So the big question is: how much loss are we talking? Or is it even possible? If not, I'll have to do the aac -> audio cd -> mp3 and if the quality loss isn't commensurate with a typical lossy to lossy conversion, then I'm pissed. (n.b. I'm willing to deal with the typical lossy to lossy degradation. I'm not willing to deal with artificial loss.) Does that make more sense?

-t

ps - I'm not bitching about not being able to play aac files in my car. I'm not much of a bitcher.

edit: I know that iTunes won't prevent me from ripping any cd to mp3. I was just hoping that I would be able to do this with tracks I buy from Apple. Still holding out hope...

Maybe I should clarify a bit here, too. When you convert a compressed AAC file to uncompressed AIFF, it's just like copying a compressed JPEG to the clipboard. The compression is duplicated exactly, in the case of the JPEG the bitmap that is the clipboard will duplicate the artifacts in the JPEG image just as you see them, it doesn't magically uncompress the image (like you would get with a zip or sit file.) Therefore when you convert the AAC file to AIFF, no quality is regained. It is exactly the same as the original AAC, only it takes up more space. When you convert the AIFF file to MP3, it is exactly the same as converting the original AAC file to MP3. In much the same way, a compressed JPEG will compress once more in exactly the same way a copy of that JPEG, saved as an uncompressed TIFF will (at the same quality setting, say 60.)

Converting all of your AAC files Audio CDs only to rip them again is a waste of blank CDs and time.
post #33 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by Spart
Maybe I should clarify a bit here, too. When you convert a compressed AAC file to uncompressed AIFF, it's just like copying a compressed JPEG to the clipboard. The compression is duplicated exactly, in the case of the JPEG the bitmap that is the clipboard will duplicate the artifacts in the JPEG image just as you see them, it doesn't magically uncompress the image (like you would get with a zip or sit file.) Therefore when you convert the AAC file to AIFF, no quality is regained. It is exactly the same as the original AAC, only it takes up more space. When you convert the AIFF file to MP3, it is exactly the same as converting the original AAC file to MP3. In much the same way, a compressed JPEG will compress once more in exactly the same way a copy of that JPEG, saved as an uncompressed TIFF will (at the same quality setting, say 60.)

Converting all of your AAC files Audio CDs only to rip them again is a waste of blank CDs and time.

I understand all that. I know that .aac is lossy and .mp3 is lossy and that you can't regain the original quality by converting it to .aiff and then to .mp3 (I'm not an idiot, you know ). What I'm griping about (and it's now full-blown griping by now) is the possibility that the .aac > audio cd > .mp3 conversion could result in a greater degradation in quality than it should.

If, for example, I were converting a .jpg that's at 90 quality from a .tiff and then converting that new .jpg to one that's 60 quality, I should get a new image that's 54 quality. Same thing with the .aac > .mp3 stuff. (Maybe not entirely accurate, but you get the point.)

What I'm saying is that we should take the analogy of .jpg quality settings and apply it to the music files. The overall .aac > audio cd > .mp3 conversion should only result in 54 quality files (using the numbers from the above example). Not anything less. If it is, as the forbes article suggests there would be, then we've got a problem. Does that make sense?

-t

ps - again, I need to convert any .aac files to mp3 files for my car to be able to play them. That's why I would go through all these machinations to get it to work.
post #34 of 74
torifile

You need to realize that while the AACs downloaded form the iTunes Music Store are higher quality than 99% of MP3s downloaded off the internet, either legally, or illegally, they are still lossy compression (the jpeg analogy is a good one). A store-bought CD will always be superior in quality.

Yo can easily convert any AACs downloaded off the internet to MP3s playable on your car MP3 CD player, but again, the quality will be "double lossy". But if you download an Apple AAC and convert it to a 160kbps MP3 the quality should still be superior to that of a 128kbps MP3 ripped from a CD. I just don't see why you have any reason to be pissed at Apple over this. If quality were that important to you, you wouldn't be using a car MP3 CD player at all. I bet you won't even know the difference.
post #35 of 74
why not just try it with just a single track? it'll only cost ya 99 cents
post #36 of 74
Sorry, torifile I was responding to a post way back and hadn't seen your latest comments.

But what I don't understand is why you'd be going from AAC>AIFF>MP3 when you could much more easily go AAC>MP3 direct right from the iTunes menu.

And I doubt Apple has discovered some compression anamoly that makes MP3s burned from AAC sound "horrible". I'm sure your "54 quality" measurement should be about right.
post #37 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Sorry, torifile I was responding to a post way back and hadn't seen your latest comments.

But what I don't understand is why you'd be going from AAC>AIFF>MP3 when you could much more easily go AAC>MP3 direct right from the iTunes menu.

And I doubt Apple has discovered some compression anamoly that makes MP3s burned from AAC sound "horrible". I'm sure your "54 quality" measurement should be about right.

np, tonton.

The only reason I would go through an audio cd would be if I wasn't allowed to make an mp3 directly from the .aac file. I'm an audible.com user and you can't convert audible files to mp3s and I'm thinking that Apple took a page from their book for this one. I guess I overreacted to the speculation from the Forbes quote earlier. I will just try it out and see. As pesi said, it is only $.99.
post #38 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
I will just try it out and see. As pesi said, it is only $.99. [/B]

well, just make sure you let us all know how it turns out!
post #39 of 74
Converting MP3s to AAC doesn't really sound different to me... I mean, I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it'll be much different changing AAC to MP3. In fact, I'm going to try ripping a CD in AAC format and then changing it to MP3. And to be super mean, I'll convert it from 128 kilobit AAC to 192 kilobit MP3
post #40 of 74
Ok, so I can't convert and .aac file directly to an mp3 through the menu:



Trying the converting the audio tracks now.... Stay tuned.
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