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post #481 of 771
Naw, this sounds reasonable. The scheduler is an extremely important and CPU-specific portion of the compiler. It's what ensures that you don't get too many bubbles in a pipeline.

The 970's pipeline architecture is quite different than the G{3,4}, and it's easy to believe that bad scheduling based on G4 specs would lead to really really poor performance by the 970. Relatively speaking, of course.
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post #482 of 771
Yikes, didn't notice Rothenberg wrote this. Maybe his source talked quickly in a deep, throaty voice so his notes are bad.... \

Boy, Apple will be walking on a wire explaining 32-bits versus 64-bits. Maybe it'd be best not to mention it other than to developers...

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post #483 of 771
It's gonna be a lonnnnng two weeks.
post #484 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
it's easy to believe that bad scheduling based on G4 specs would lead to really really poor performance by the 970. Relatively speaking, of course.

My understanding is that the 970 has very aggressive out-of-order execution capabilities, so it should be able to deal reasonably well with poorly scheduled code.
post #485 of 771
Heh, "buy this computer! It will get really really fast in like 2 months... I promise "
post #486 of 771
(Holds crystal ball to forehead)
I see... A torrent of before and after Panther benchmarks!!!

Although the article makes no mention of them, or perhaps because it makes no mention of them, I have a feeling that if any Powerbook model will get revved to the 970 then it will be closer to the Panther release than to WWDC. Otherwise if a new G4 15" PB is debuted right along side the new PMs, well, that seals the fate of 970 PBs until the end of the year...

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post #487 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Ti Fighter
Heh, "buy this computer! It will get really really fast in like 2 months... I promise "

Most of this compiler/scheduler stuff is way over my head, but I'll tell you this: If there is any real world performance penalty running the 970 under Smeagol, then Apple should wait. They won't get a second chance to make a first impression (bake-off).

Calling Programmer! We need you to weigh in on this.
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post #488 of 771
post #489 of 771
No, I thought Apple is continuing its letter-number code. Those revised Powermacs that Thinksecret reported that raised way too much speculation was P58, yes?

Well, the 970 PMs are a new generation therefore from P to Q.

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post #490 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Most of this compiler/scheduler stuff is way over my head, but I'll tell you this: If there is any real world performance penalty running the 970 under Smeagol, then Apple should wait. They won't get a second chance to make a first impression (bake-off).

Calling Programmer! We need you to weigh in on this.

The 970 will be faster than the G4 at the same clock rate, and (depending on what you are doing) potentially much faster. Software that is then recompiled specifically for the 970 will get faster yet although its not clear how much faster -- typically previous generational changes have given a 15-20% performance improvement from just recompiling. Panther (and all of Apple's iApps) will probably be completely recompiled for the new processor, whereas the Jaguar patch will just have the small driver & kernel changes necessary to enable the OS to run on the 970.

If they are running a specific bake-off they could probably use a recompiled version of Photoshop (or whatever).

Further performance improvements are not going to be related to the 970's "64-bitness" as seemed to be implied above. They instead result from the processor's architecture.

Not buying one just because it isn't running at full speed on day 1 is just silly. No radically new hardware is running at its full potential the day it ships. Even the current G4 towers aren't fully utilized, if they were then Panther couldn't deliver any performance improvements as it apparently does. Have no fear, however, the demonstration that Steve does will highlight the machine's performance -- Steve wouldn't have it any other way.
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post #491 of 771
maybe these new machines will be only for close apple developers to try along with the pre release of panther to work the bugs out. I mean wwdc is for developers not public consumer announcements. If steve is gonna do show speed tests at wwdc hes gonna use panther.
post #492 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Ti Fighter
maybe these new machines will be only for close apple developers to try along with the pre release of panther to work the bugs out. I mean wwdc is for developers not public consumer announcements. If steve is gonna do show speed tests at wwdc hes gonna use panther.

And everyone at WWDC has been promised a preview release of Panther so anyone taking it home from there won't be using 10.2.x...
post #493 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Ti Fighter
wwdc is for developers not public consumer announcements.

Not anymore.
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post #494 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
The 970 will be faster than the G4 at the same clock rate, and (depending on what you are doing) potentially much faster. Software that is then recompiled specifically for the 970 will get faster yet although its not clear how much faster -- typically previous generational changes have given a 15-20% performance improvement from just recompiling. Panther (and all of Apple's iApps) will probably be completely recompiled for the new processor, whereas the Jaguar patch will just have the small driver & kernel changes necessary to enable the OS to run on the 970.

If they are running a specific bake-off they could probably use a recompiled version of Photoshop (or whatever).

Further performance improvements are not going to be related to the 970's "64-bitness" as seemed to be implied above. They instead result from the processor's architecture.

Not buying one just because it isn't running at full speed on day 1 is just silly. No radically new hardware is running at its full potential the day it ships. Even the current G4 towers aren't fully utilized, if they were then Panther couldn't deliver any performance improvements as it apparently does. Have no fear, however, the demonstration that Steve does will highlight the machine's performance -- Steve wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks Programmer, that backs up everything I've heard about the 970. Any idea why Rothenberg seems to want to talk it down? Is he just confused over the importance of 64 bit, or does he just not understand the issues involved?
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post #495 of 771
I wouldn't be too worried about the "on par with G4" comment. There are alot of issues to resolve and even if the new PowerMacs aren't optimized by WWDC, I don't mind having a few months of public tweaking by early-adopters. It means that what ships in September will be ready to go!

I think Apple also needs to give something in the summer to schools and companies with Fall fiscal years to see, so that orders can be made in anticipation of Panther.

This lines up eventually well for holiday media blitz's ... let's hope!

Also would all of these changes to the mobo may also increase downloads to iPods? I thought I read that download rates were not slowed down by FireWire.

The point is that there is alot to potentially crow about when a change like this is made and even if the 970 is a bit hampered, I don't care. This is for DEVELOPERS to see and they will get the Panther beta! That's what we want. Then by the Fall we'll be cheering, "here come the snail ads!!!" Too bad Intel took away the bunny suit guys.
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post #496 of 771
Quote:
Have no fear, however, the demonstration that Steve does will highlight the machine's performance -- Steve wouldn't have it any other way.



Agreed.

I'm confident we're about to be impressed. If the machine runs at half speed even until Panther...you're still getting a 1.8 G4 on a whoppa of a bus...with altivec cut loose and an extra fpu. (You see any G4s lookin' dat good?) If I wasn't broke after forking out for two design collections and Final Cut Pro 3, I'd be on that bus. Personally, I'm waiting until after Sept. Will or iron, eh?

Heh, I can use my wife's 600 mhz G3 until then. It still seems like lightspeed compared to my old Powermac 604e clone!

I don't think we all quite realise what Steve Jobs is about to hit us with in 2 weeks... Despite all the 'confirmation'...it's all rather quiet and understated from IBM/Apple. It's deafeningly quiet.

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post #497 of 771
Quote:
The point is that there is alot to potentially crow about when a change like this is made and even if the 970 is a bit hampered, I don't care. This is for DEVELOPERS to see and they will get the Panther beta! That's what we want. Then by the Fall we'll be cheering, "here come the snail ads!!!" Too bad Intel took away the bunny suit guys.

Smoken!



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post #498 of 771
The real question is, How much faster will the 970 run AOL?
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post #499 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by MacGregor
I wouldn't be too worried about the "on par with G4" comment. There are alot of issues to resolve and even if the new PowerMacs aren't optimized by WWDC, I don't mind having a few months of public tweaking by early-adopters. . .


I think the author just doesn't understand that the 970 will easily out perform a G4 running the same 32 bit applications. I doubt there will need to be any tweaking or tuning to see a big difference right away.
post #500 of 771
and any improvement on the MPX bus might also be noticable encoding video or hefty renders
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post #501 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by hjordis71
The real question is, How much faster will the 970 run AOL?

3-4 times faster depending on the version corresponding the color of smeagol panther pink or green 64 bitness off cetering the 32 bit version which would be realsed maybe in quarter 3 of the year before next.
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post #502 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb
and any improvement on the MPX bus might also be noticable encoding video or hefty renders

And games! Woohoo!
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post #503 of 771
From ThinkSecret regarding the eWeek article:

"However, Q37 will ship before Apple rolls out a 64-bit version of Panther in September. Instead, the new Power Macs will ship with a special Jaguar build train code-named Smeagol. Smeagol will run on the new chip but won't take advantage of many of its key features, limiting initial performance gains."

I'm confused, even after the many interesting and informative posts on this forum, as to what performance gains 64-bit processing may bring to OSX. My understanding is that the 64-bit aspect of the chip isn't were we are going to find the greatest performance gains. Is there an aspect of 64-bit computing that Apple can take advantage of in OSX?
post #504 of 771


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A jury awarded $1.2 million to Microsoft and Everex Systems in a lawsuit involving pirated copies of Microsoft software. The defendants were accused of selling counterfeit copies of a Microsoft computer program to Everex. Pirated software became an international problem for software companies in the 1990s, costing U.S. software companies an estimated $11.4 million in revenue in 1997.
post #505 of 771
D@mn, I've only been away for two days and now even the AI frontpage is updated, and the rest of the rumor web is flooding with rumors of powermacs and powerbooks
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post #506 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
D@mn, I've only been away for two days and now even the AI frontpage is updated, and the rest of the rumor web is flooding with rumors of powermacs and powerbooks

Don't dare sleep. Better: Don't even blink at all.
Keep hitting that reload button.

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post #507 of 771
I think we're making some logical leaps with regards to the whole 970-rollout thing!

The inference that some posters have made here is that some hypothetical bakeoff will be disadvantaged because it won't run Panther.

The more likely reality is that any bakeoff will have been rehearsed/tested to destruction by the keynote, based on a Panther platform. The bakeoff may not even be purely Photoshop; in view of Adobe's recent 'disloyalty', I wouldn't be surprised if the bakeoff compares Premiere on a P4 to FCP4 on the best 970.

The opportunity for ADC members to 'acquire' 970-based hardware requires a 'stable' operating system based on Jaguar, facilitating backwards compatibility for code developed under 970, but ultimately purchased by retail Jaguar users, however the "killer argument" is developing code that can operate in a Panther environment under both G4 and 970 environments.

If you're a commercial user, you can buy a "970" pre-loaded with Smeagol just like a developer, however you won't have access to Panther until the autumn. However, it probably won't matter to you financially because Apple will probably give you a copy of Panther on production of a coupon anyway.

As for the press, fsck most of them!

The tame "Mac Press" can be largely relied on to play by the rules, and Apple should help the likes of MacWorld, MacCentral and MacUser with their benchmarks based on a Panther future!

As for the rest, they can wait until we are shipping a complete solution in the retail world.

That's a simple solution, Apple is in control of who gets evaluation units. If ZDNet or anyone else wants to lash out a couple of grand to buy a unit just to write knocking copy, that's their perogative - the truth will out by September and the guilty parties will look fairly stupid wasting column inches, whilst simultaneously annoying Apple for any future information.

I'm sitting here pricking my thumbs, because something wicked this way comes (and I also have insulin-resistant diabetes).
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post #508 of 771
WWDC to be "biggest ever".

"G5 could be two weeks away

Speculation is mounting that Apple could unveil new Power Macs at its Worldwide Developers Conference, which starts on 23 June.

A MacUser.co.uk source reports that WWDC will be the 'biggest ever' and will feature significant hardware announcements, while according to eWeek, Apple 'is nearing the release of desktop systems featuring IBM's 64-bit PowerPC 970 chip'.

Apple has already confirmed that Mac OS X 10.3 - codenamed Panther - will be previewed for the first time at WWDC. Panther will be the first version of Mac OS X capable of exploiting the 64-bit capabilities of the PowerPC 970 chips.

eWeek suggests that in fact the new Power Macs - expected to be tagged as G5s - will beat OS X 10.3 to market and that in the interim a 'special' build of 10.2 - Smeagol- will be released to bridge the gap.

Adding spice to the mix, Apple lawyers recently forced one Mac rumour Web site to remove a story predicting G5s at WWDC.

What is certain is that with the imminent release of QuarkXPress for OS X and the decision by Adobe to discontinue the Classic version of Photoshop, all but one of the elements that can persuade pro Mac suers to switch wholesale to OS X are in place. The missing element is a Power Mac range powerful enough to justify the expenditure for not just the computers, but across the board software upgrades."

Macworld Uk
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post #509 of 771
I wonder what Carmack will say about the 970. Hrrmmmm...
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post #510 of 771
Actually, this is smart.

First, you show off how the G5 beats the pants off of 'x'
Everyone runs out to buy one.

Couple months later, you show how Panther speeds everything up and beats the pants of of 'x' even faster
Everyone runs out to buy a copy.
(even though most of the speed is going to be gained with G5 machines)

It's basically 'gating' the speed without gating the hardware.

It might work out pretty conveniently for Apple - and provide a second push for PowerMac sales after the initial giant rush.

Plus, early buyers won't lose out if we get a coupon for free Panther.
(we just better be able to redeem the things at Apple stores instead of mail order!)
post #511 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by - J B 7 2 -
I wonder what Carmack will say about the 970. Hrrmmmm...

I hereby predict that a dual 1.8 GHz G5 Powermac will run Doom 3 faster than the fastest Wintel money can buy.

Please, PLEASE let there be dual G5 Powermacs announced. It's fine if they don't ship at first, but for fsck's sake announce them! Going all single CPU would be an extremely bad idea IMO, and it would generate too much ill will and resentment towards Apple after all the years of pushing dualies.
post #512 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
I hereby predict that a dual 1.8 GHz G5 Powermac will run Doom 3 faster than the fastest Wintel money can buy... Please, PLEASE let there be dual G5 Powermacs announced...

And how about the PSbench that the Arse BF crowd is so enamored of? 'Velocity Engines' unleashed!

I agree that duals must follow rapidly ~ across the board! Put the single 970's in the iMac and use duals to differentiate the pro line. The consumer line badly needs pumping up too.

Aphelion ...
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post #513 of 771
new drunken nerd story at the AI front page...boy kasper is busy...

g
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post #514 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by thegelding
new drunken nerd story at the AI front page...boy kasper is busy...

g

Boy did I lose alot of faith in AI with that one...piffle.
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post #515 of 771
12 Days Left to WWDC

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post #516 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
12 Days Left to WWDC

No Picture? \
post #517 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by job
And games! Woohoo!

No no...

[Homer-Voice]
Woooohoooooooo!!!!
[/Homer-Voice]

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post #518 of 771
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
WWDC to be "biggest ever".

"G5 could be two weeks away

Speculation is mounting that Apple could unveil new Power Macs at its Worldwide Developers Conference, which starts on 23 June.

A MacUser.co.uk source reports that WWDC will be the 'biggest ever' and will feature significant hardware announcements, while according to eWeek, Apple 'is nearing the release of desktop systems featuring IBM's 64-bit PowerPC 970 chip'.

Apple has already confirmed that Mac OS X 10.3 - codenamed Panther - will be previewed for the first time at WWDC. Panther will be the first version of Mac OS X capable of exploiting the 64-bit capabilities of the PowerPC 970 chips.

eWeek suggests that in fact the new Power Macs - expected to be tagged as G5s - will beat OS X 10.3 to market and that in the interim a 'special' build of 10.2 - Smeagol- will be released to bridge the gap.

Adding spice to the mix, Apple lawyers recently forced one Mac rumour Web site to remove a story predicting G5s at WWDC.

What is certain is that with the imminent release of QuarkXPress for OS X and the decision by Adobe to discontinue the Classic version of Photoshop, all but one of the elements that can persuade pro Mac suers to switch wholesale to OS X are in place. The missing element is a Power Mac range powerful enough to justify the expenditure for not just the computers, but across the board software upgrades."

Macworld Uk

Actually, MacUser is mostly referring to the WWDC email Apple sent out with the tag line "Biggest Ever". So, don't read too much into MacUser's article, they are merely quoting Apple's take on panther preview and a couple other small non-hardware planned events.
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post #519 of 771
Apple has been working very with some large developers of stand alone IT solutions in India (all Microsoft based developers). They have these people now developing applications on the OSX server platform.
A lot of these developers seem to like the Price/performance of the Xserve and the fact that it costs very little to actually deploy a Xserve based solution due to the licensing costs.

It is from one of these sources that I heard that there are going to be some pretty big announcements during the WWDC. Oracle, Sybase (I think) would announce OSX Server based products. Then there is another company (forget the name) that is to introduce the first SAP product to run on OSX server.

These are new segments for Apple and they have been working hard in getting credibility with these developers. I guess a lot of the Enterprise IT slots would be filled with some of these announcements.

It's only 10 days or so.....
post #520 of 771
i remember reading about the same thing in an indian web site. (about apple working with it groups in india) should be interesting.
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