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Macbidouille: 970's on sale at the end of May - Page 7

post #241 of 301
I may have just missed his posts but I haven't seen Moki on these boards for a while. No comments on the MB rumors for dates and benchmarks. You don't suppose he has a test machine and is under a NDA do you?

It's fun to start rumors.
post #242 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by mmicist
Ending sentences with prepositons, is, of course, grammatically wrong.

Should be : Unfortunately, that is the state in which our society is.

Churchill showed just how silly this can get with the marvellous phrase "This is something up with which I shall not put."


Hehe. I showed my wife (English minor, German major) my post as I sent it saying, "I wonder what people might say". I guess I should have taken a leaf out of the pages of The Inquirer's play book and turned my [irony alert] into, "Warning: Blatant grammatical error and attempt at humour!!".

MM
post #243 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by MartianMatt
Hehe. I showed my wife (English minor, German major) my post as I sent it saying, "I wonder what people might say". I guess I should have taken a leaf out of the pages of The Inquirer's play book and turned my [irony alert] into, "Warning: Blatant grammatical error and attempt at humour!!".

Subtlety, much like proper grammar and punctuation, is an art lost in online forums.
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post #244 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
I may have just missed his posts but I haven't seen Moki on these boards for a while. No comments on the MB rumors for dates and benchmarks. You don't suppose he has a test machine and is under a NDA do you?

It's fun to start rumors.

last time i mentioned that, he was very upset that i actually thought he had a ppc970 powermac to toy with.

he denied, offcourse
but who knows
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post #245 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Subtlety, much like proper grammar and punctuation, is an art lost in online forums.

I sometimes worry that programmers code the way they write forum contributions. Punctuation, spelling and grammar do not seem to matter. Ah well!
post #246 of 301
(repeat after me) Essence of language is comprehension! Essence of language is comprehension! Essence of language is comprehension! Essence of language is comprehension!
post #247 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
(repeat after me) Essence of language is comprehension! Essence of language is comprehension! Essence of language is comprehension! Essence of language is comprehension!

May I revise that to "Essence of language is unambiguous comprehension"? I've see far too many cases where both sides of a discussion come away "understanding" the outcome, but both "understanding" very different things.
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post #248 of 301
Here is a Post that might generate some debate.

Quote:
Mr. MacPhisto
macrumors regular

Registered: Jan 2003
Location:
IBM Inside - some insider information

I've decided to post what I know about IBM's chip plans for the PPC and take some educated guesses as to how they relate to Apple.

Firstly, let me tell you why I know what I know. I have three good friends in the upper echelon of IBM. Two are in tech development positions of some kind, the other is in management. One is in Colorado, another in New York, and the last in North Carolina. I've gotten agreeing chip information from two of them. The third works in tech that doesn't involve chip manufacture. #3 has heard rumors, but hasn't been to official meeting or seen official documents.

Well, from what I understand, Apple came to IBM about two years ago requesting help because of Motorola's lack of interest in really building kick-butt processors for Apple. IBM agreed to help, although certain conditions were needed for this to happen. Most of this involved business related stuff and tech development costs, as well as some trade offs on technology developed by each company.

So, everyone knows about the 970 now, but there is also development on a new 750 based chip. There is already a 750 ready to go that is Altivec (I know, Moto terminology, just easier to know what it is that way) enhanced, can run with a FSB @ 400 or 450 MHZ with speeds up to 2GHZ. This is a modified 750fx, for all intents and purposes. These have been available for several months now, but Apple has not wanted them until now. It had to do with Apple's contractual obligations to Moto and the fact that they toast the G4 chip.

Apple is scheduled to have several palettes of these 750s (yes, up to 2 GHZ, lowest being 1.4) delivered to them in May. They also will have the 970s delivered to them @ speeds of 1.5 to 2.5. So, here's my educated guess:

The 970s now actually run more efficiently than when specs were announced, so that a high-end laptop could take a chip running at 1.8. I'm not sure if Apple will keep them all at 1.5 for power efficiency, but they may.

So, I think Apple introduces a completely revamped lineup in July. The iBooks and eMacs all use the 750 chip - iBooks running at 1.4, eMacs up to 2. The iMac may have a low-end model with this chip, and may be launched without the 970, giving the "Power" lineup a 3 to 6 month head start with the 970. I also don't think they'll call the 750 the G3. My bet is they may call it a Super G4 or a G4 Xtreme - something like that.

I see the PowerMacs getting an assortment of 970s, up to 2.5 with dual processor combos possible.

I think the 12" PB will get a 1.5 processor while the 15" PBs can get a 1.5 or 1.8 and the 17" comes with a 1.8

I think Apple may put 1MB of L3 on the 750 machines, 2MB on the PBs and PowerMacs. However, the PMs can take up to 4 - and it may be best for the laptops to only have 1.

I also know IBM is working on a 32bit new 750 based processor for Apple, so my guess is this will be used to delineate the iBook and eMac from the Power lineup. It may extend to the iMac too, but I'd guess a high-end iMac would have the 970.

And, now to the real kicker. Remember how I said that Apple had to make concessions to IBM? Well, one of them would allow IBM to manufacture and sell machines that ran Mac OS X - and would allow them sell it for servers, if a customer wanted it. This would not allow them to build laptops that ran the Mac OS, only desktop machines or servers.

Personally, I'm very skeptical, but hope some of it is true.
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post #249 of 301
That is some thoroughly cool stuff. An altivec G3 smoking the G4, I'm SO willing to believe that (no joke here). I've always considered the G4 to be a dog. Also, this might explain the direction that will be taken with the i-line versus the pro-line. Making the i-line a line that is really appealing in terms of everything.
post #250 of 301
Nothing really new here... the poster could simply have read this forum and put together a "rumour" that fullfills what people are speculating about.

One mildly interesting idea in there, however, is that Apple wants to take legal action against Motorola but to do that they have to completely eliminate their dependency on Motorola products... and that they might hold back on the latest IBM chips until they can fullfill their contractual obligations and convert over completely. I'm skeptical, however. The timeframe on G3 w/ SIMD is aggressive and converting all entire lineups all at once seems too risky, especially when they just updated the eMacs. I don't buy it.
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post #251 of 301
if true. i would say these qualify as "options"
post #252 of 301
Moki has not posted since 4/21. His last post was in the 970 tower Mockup thread. Maybe he has just lost interest, but I really would like to hear what he has to say about all of these rampant rumors.
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post #253 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by mmicist
Ending sentences with prepositons, is, of course, grammatically wrong.

Apologies if you're joking. If you're not joking, you're wrong.

English is not Latin. Honestly.
post #254 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Nothing really new here... the poster could simply have read this forum and put together a "rumour" that fullfills what people are speculating about.

One mildly interesting idea in there, however, is that Apple wants to take legal action against Motorola but to do that they have to completely eliminate their dependency on Motorola products... and that they might hold back on the latest IBM chips until they can fullfill their contractual obligations and convert over completely. I'm skeptical, however. The timeframe on G3 w/ SIMD is aggressive and converting all entire lineups all at once seems too risky, especially when they just updated the eMacs. I don't buy it.

Yes, the "Apple wants to take legal action" rumors seem a stretch to me. Let me rephrase that, maybe Apple would like to take legal action, but the rumors saying they intend to seem a stretch.

The part of this post that appears the most far fetched comes in the last paragraph(re: as other people posted in Mac Forums). It's possible that Apple would agree to allow IBM to manufacture desktops w/ Mac OS X, but I don't think it very likely. However, maybe Apple learned something in their foray into the clones and have included some more restrictions, nawww, I'm dreaming, ain't happening. Oh well, we'll soon find out.

Still hoping for the IBM 850, that was the hook this post got to me with.(preposition that )
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post #255 of 301
Macbidouille has stated that the new PM's will include Hypertransport. I haven't seen that addressed in this thread (although I'll admit that I haven"t read every post). Would someone much more knowledgeable than I comment on the ramifications of Hypertransport and the impact on throughput?
post #256 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Nonsuch
Apologies if you're joking. If you're not joking, you're wrong.

English is not Latin. Honestly.

Ahhh, sanity ...

... in the end, good grammar is far more about good judgment, than it is about applying pre-set prescriptions: something that is completely lost in the way it's taught.

<back to regularly scheduled speculation>
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post #257 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by tman
Macbidouille has stated that the new PM's will include Hypertransport. I haven't seen that addressed in this thread (although I'll admit that I haven"t read every post). Would someone much more knowledgeable than I comment on the ramifications of Hypertransport and the impact on throughput?

It depends on how it is used. The most likely use is to allow Apple to divide their chipset into two chips, one for I/O and one for the memory controller + FSB (+AGP?). That will help Apple rev the features of one without updating the other, and may allow them to share parts between high & low end lines.

Other uses of HT are harder to envision -- if they get a special GPU from ATI or nVidia (both of whom are part of the HT consortium) then it could replace AGP. This is much less likely, IMHO. The 970's FSB is HT-like but its not HT so this won't be used to communicate to the processor(s). Apple could also divide their chips further, but this tends to make the system more expensive so its not a benefit.

Really the use of HT is a technical detail that isn't particularly interesting to the end user.
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post #258 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
It depends on how it is used. The most likely use is to allow Apple to divide their chipset into two chips, one for I/O and one for the memory controller + FSB (+AGP?). That will help Apple rev the features of one without updating the other, and may allow them to share parts between high & low end lines.

Other uses of HT are harder to envision -- if they get a special GPU from ATI or nVidia (both of whom are part of the HT consortium) then it could replace AGP. This is much less likely, IMHO. The 970's FSB is HT-like but its not HT so this won't be used to communicate to the processor(s). Apple could also divide their chips further, but this tends to make the system more expensive so its not a benefit.

Really the use of HT is a technical detail that isn't particularly interesting to the end user.

The initial standard of HT was a daisy chain connection and the comunication between slaves in a daisy chain was not allowed. All comunication between slaves has to be done through master.

Later on the consortium has added the possibility of a switch like RAPIDIO.

If 970 has HT the communication between processors could be done with a switch.

I will try to provide a link.

regards

rooster
post #259 of 301
Updated spec and compatibility initiative to push HyperTransport

http://www.commsdesign.com/story/OEG20030127S0006

regards

rooster
post #260 of 301
mercury computer systems says their new impact rt systems will be available this quarter, using a "next generation powerpc" processor with altivec. this should prove that the ppc970 will be available for some companies in may or june - and i'd bet apple will get ppc970s before any other vendor (although it's not sure if we're talking about high volume production here). this should confirm macbidouilles claim that the new systems are (or better: could at least - technically be) ready to ship.

mercury has also made some statements about the performance of their new systems (current machines use motorola g4 processors), they're talking about speed improvement up to 400%. but you should be careful here as those machines are all multiprocessor systems, and they're now using rapid-io as new bus system (using ppc970-to-rapidio bridges). as far as i know the new impact systems were originally designed to use mpc7500 processors, so mercury may have had the same problems as apple.

by the way: you should take a closer look to some mc circuits and compare them to the asic used in the xserve and the new powermacs. maybe apple and mc have closer relationships as some of you would think.
post #261 of 301
I doubt Mercury has a 970 product ready. From the ImpactRT 3100 product page:

"Harnessing PowerPC 7445 microprocessors to reach 600 GFLOPS or 2.4 TeraOPS, the ImpactRT 3100 multicomputer has the muscle to plow through the toughest computing tasks."

Companies like Mercury are rarely at the forefront of processor technology. It took them a year or so after the introduction of the G4 to get a product to market. I don't expect things to change with the 970.

While I don't know about hardware, Mercury does have a relationship with Apple in the software arena. They wrote vDSP. Mercury knows how to squeeze a proc for every last drop of performence when it comes to vector math.
post #262 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by ConcoursAL
I doubt Mercury has a 970 product ready. From the ImpactRT 3100 product page:

"Harnessing PowerPC 7445 microprocessors to reach 600 GFLOPS or 2.4 TeraOPS, the ImpactRT 3100 multicomputer has the muscle to plow through the toughest computing tasks."

Companies like Mercury are rarely at the forefront of processor technology. It took them a year or so after the introduction of the G4 to get a product to market. I don't expect things to change with the 970.

While I don't know about hardware, Mercury does have a relationship with Apple in the software arena. They wrote vDSP. Mercury knows how to squeeze a proc for every last drop of performence when it comes to vector math.

So true! But look at the picture for the ImpactRT 3100 http://www.mc.com/press_room/image_l...tegory=Systems and you'll see a motherboard of sorts leaning against the machine. That MB looks mighty familiar: wasn't something like that shopped around as a futute Apple PM MB or the IBM 970 blade MB a few month back? Anybody who has these old spy pictures might want to take a look?
post #263 of 301
I don't buy Programmer's logic on the above IBM insider rumour.

Apple have updated machines when it has suited them. The fact that they turned over almost their entire line-up earlier this year shows what Apple can do.

No reason that a similar sweeping move couldn't be on the cards following a May-July release of the 970 in the towers.

And it's not as if Apple haven't got an urgent motivating factor. Their market share is taking a hammering. At 2%...and sliding slowly towards the nexus of irrelevant oblivion I can only hope that the calm, steely reserve of the share holder meeting suggests that the planets have almost moved into alignment re: the cpu situation. ie some master plan is in the offing.

Apple is heading in the enterprise direction. It is THE online music store. It has THE music player marketshare.

It has Unix on Mac on Unix.

The impossible has already been done. None of this would surprise. It's hardly out of the ordinary. If Apple wanted to kick Motorola's butt, it would make sense that they would have a plan in place from the towers to laptops to afford that kind of assault on their primary chip supplier.

Apple have shown with the music store, after years of putting all the pieces in place, that they can execute formidable plans.

Given the current management team at Apple and a very sobre Steve Jobs, something about the whole 970 and IBM link means something more than 'just' the 970. I smell a plan born of a long time calculated.

I think 2003/early 2004 is going to me more than 'the year of the laptop'.

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post #264 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by barbarella
So true! But look at the picture for the ImpactRT 3100 http://www.mc.com/press_room/image_l...tegory=Systems and you'll see a motherboard of sorts leaning against the machine. That MB looks mighty familiar: wasn't something like that shopped around as a futute Apple PM MB or the IBM 970 blade MB a few month back? Anybody who has these old spy pictures might want to take a look?

From a page from Mercury's web site: Link

From the top of the page:

"March 31, 2003 - DALLAS, TX - March 31, 2003 - Mercury Computer Systems, Inc. (NASDAQ:MRCY), announced today at the Global Signal Processing Expo (GSPx) its ImpactRTTM 3100, the first scalable, high-performance, signal and image processing system based on the open-standard RapidIO® interconnect architecture. Combining next-generation PowerPC® microprocessors with AltiVecTM technology and the RapidIO communications switch fabric,"

So they are using a chip with RapidIO and Altivec. Where is it coming from?

From the bottom of the page, it says...

"About RapidIO
RapidIO is an open-standard, high-performance, packet-switched interconnect architecture that addresses the high-performance, embedded computing industrys need for reliability, increased bandwidth, and faster bus speeds in an intra-system interconnect. The RapidIO interconnect allows chip-to-chip and board-to-board communications at performance levels scaling to tens of Gigabits/s and beyond. The initial RapidIO concept was the result of collaboration between Mercury Computer Systems and Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector (SPS). "

In short, this sounds like (at least to me) that Mercury is using a powerpc chip from Motorola that has both Altivec and RapidIO.

Interesting...
post #265 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by ConcoursAL
I doubt Mercury has a 970 product ready. From the ImpactRT 3100 product page:

"Harnessing PowerPC 7445 microprocessors to reach 600 GFLOPS or 2.4 TeraOPS, the ImpactRT 3100 multicomputer has the muscle to plow through the toughest computing tasks."


Interesting that on one page, it kind of sounds like the 3100 has a chip with both RapidIO and Altivec. However, when you click to the page that has the text you posted above, it says they are using the 7445
chip. However, there is no mention of RapidIO on the 7445 webpage.

They must be using a lot of G4's (assuming they are using them) to get 600GFLOPS.
post #266 of 301
I was starting to think that Apple may update the entire line as soon as possible to the 970. With the wide speed range rumored, that may be possible. It would remove their dependence on Motorola and give them fast machines across the range. My big concern though is even if the chips are reasonably priced, won't the support chips and memory to support the 970 be expensive? I would think it would be difficult to have iBooks with a slow 970 and keep the price low. The other choice would be to cripple the machines with low speed ram but I am not sure that makes sense. The IBM rumor above makes sense and gives Apple a couple of different chips with different buses to support: high end/expensive interfaces and low end/cheap interfaces.

Any one else have any thoughts?
post #267 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
I was starting to think that Apple may update the entire line as soon as possible to the 970. With the wide speed range rumored, that may be possible. It would remove their dependence on Motorola and give them fast machines across the range. My big concern though is even if the chips are reasonably priced, won't the support chips and memory to support the 970 be expensive? I would think it would be difficult to have iBooks with a slow 970 and keep the price low. The other choice would be to cripple the machines with low speed ram but I am not sure that makes sense. The IBM rumor above makes sense and gives Apple a couple of different chips with different buses to support: high end/expensive interfaces and low end/cheap interfaces.

Any one else have any thoughts?

I made a few posts on pages 5, along with others. Check out that page for more on this thought, but here is basicly what I said:

The 970 will go in the towers, and powerbooks (low power 970's) in there next revisions.
The iBooks will get GOBI or 850s.
The iMacs will either get faster G4s (they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 GHz parts they could use right now), and then move to the 970. Or the iMacs might just get a low power 970 in their next update.
The eMac was just updated, so the next update will probably be a low power 970, or a faster G4 part (depending on what teh imac goes to).
post #268 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
I don't buy Programmer's logic on the above IBM insider rumour.

Apple have updated machines when it has suited them. The fact that they turned over almost their entire line-up earlier this year shows what Apple can do.

Yeah, but they just updated the eMacs. The rest of the lineup will be 6-7 months old at WWDC and an update seems reasonable, but why would they have updated the eMac just to do it again 1-2 months later? Of course there is always the possibility that they'll just use up their stock of G4 chips in the eMac and update it to an IBM G3 w/ SIMD in 6 months...
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post #269 of 301
Quote:
chips in the eMac and update it to an IBM G3 w/ SIMD in 6 months...

That's where i would place my bet.
post #270 of 301
If I was pissed off enough at Motorola to _really_ sue them, and I knew I would have replacement chips at most 8mo in the future, I might just buy a 8mo supply _now_.

There isn't going to be much in the 'speed bump' area. Sales of iMacs isn't going to double without major changes -> you sort of know just how many chips you're going to need.
post #271 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Yeah, but they just updated the eMacs. The rest of the lineup will be 6-7 months old at WWDC and an update seems reasonable, but why would they have updated the eMac just to do it again 1-2 months later? Of course there is always the possibility that they'll just use up their stock of G4 chips in the eMac and update it to an IBM G3 w/ SIMD in 6 months...

I could agree with that.

Purely speculative, but I am guessing this is what we will see based upon all the rumors I could put together and discarding those that just didn't seem feasible to me. Mind you I reserve the right to change my mind in the next thread.

WWDC - an acknowledgement of the 970 and 64 bit Panther without detailed hardware specs. Running demos, but no "open" details, but probably some closed door briefings. Focus will be on Panther and 64 bit software (maybe a surprise announcement) with just routine passing references to other Apple successes and hardware.

Shortly After WWDC, a dedicated Apple Event, just for the hardware announcements with details. PowerMac and X-Serve announced with 970, probably in 1.4 single to 1.8 dual ranges. Available immediatly or within a week. Still don't see a 970 Powerbook, just because I don't think the mobo's to support them are there yet.

Speedbumps for PowerBooks, iMacs and maybe iBooks.

G3's continue in iBooks for sometime, no G4's, but the G3's will be dramatically improved (Gobi, etc., as per rumors) over the current models. Maybe eMacs too, but who knows.

Early 2004: PowerBooks and iMacs to 970. iBooks and eMacs to advanced G3's. Power Macs get lots faster.

OR - I am am proven completely wrong again.
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post #272 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
I made a few posts on pages 5, along with others. Check out that page for more on this thought, but here is basicly what I said:

.

I knew it was too good to be my own thought. Must have subconciously copied it.

Thanks.
post #273 of 301
I don't buy the L3 cache ideas from the inside info . . . if you have a fast enough FSB, why have an L3 . . . The RAM is the L3.

As for the the G3 variants, I believe it. They exist and I'm pretty sure Apple has "samples".
post #274 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by MacJedai
I don't buy the L3 cache ideas from the inside info . . . if you have a fast enough FSB, why have an L3 . . . The RAM is the L3.

RAM isn't that fast yet. A cache is still really valuable considering how many things are normally running.
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post #275 of 301
The advantage of L3 cache isn't so much the speed as the latency improvements. It costs far too much to be worthwhile on a desktop system with a decent FSB though.
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post #276 of 301
MacMall has a special promotion on PowerBooks and PowerMacs that ends May 25th, a Sunday. Hmmmmmmm.....

\
post #277 of 301
I kinda agree with Shaktai. No later than 2004. It may happen sooner though. But no later than what he said. Moto's on their way out. Give or take the odd 8 months or so.

I'll be glad to see the back of this incompetant FAB cripple. And as for those worried about the 2nd cpu supplier...I've got a feeling it may come from someone other than Motorola.

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post #278 of 301
Quote:
I've got a feeling it may come from someone other than Motorola.

Not that topic again.

Seriously, are you thinking about someone else designing or fabricating PowerPC CPUs? And who?
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post #279 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Stoo
Not that topic again.

Seriously, are you thinking about someone else designing or fabricating PowerPC CPUs? And who?

A second source could simply be an alternative fab which uses IBM's technology.
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post #280 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by MacJedai
I don't buy the L3 cache ideas from the inside info . . . if you have a fast enough FSB, why have an L3 . . . The RAM is the L3.

IBM's embedded DRAM technology could provide a cost effective way of shielding the rest of the system from the latency and read/write multiplexing issues of the memory subsystem. It would also improve how multiple clients of the memory system deal with contention issues.
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