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MacBidouille posts PPC 970 benchmarks - Page 13

post #481 of 666
Beg your pardon folks. I didn't post the link.

The quote came from the 970 thread at macrumors. Check out the 'Dooby 970 packaged and ready to go' thread over there.

As for enthusiasm. Well. My 'enthusiasm' is based on IBM's CONSERVATIVE estimates.

I don't recall there being this much pre-hype or 'smoke' surrounding the G4 before it was released...or as much 'near-as-dammit' confirmation from as many sites on the net.

At 1 gig it will outperform the current dual 1.4 gigs. And more so on Altivec code because of the bandwidth of the bus. Then there's five execution units. Extra fpu. Better memory.

But we're not talking about 1 gig. We're talking 1.4 gig minimum.

Then dual 1.6 and dual 1.8 if the current line up is any indication.

IF the 1.8 performed like like a 2 gig G4 and you dualed that...the dual 2 gig G4 would probably at least draw even with a Pentium 4 at 3 gig.

The 1.8 970 is more like a 3.6 gig G4 on FP ops at least. Dual that. You've got 7.2 gig. And apparently, the 970 plays ball better in dual formations than the G4 does. ie more efficient multiprocessing. Throw in optimisations in Panther OS. Altivec cut loose on 6 gig plus of bandwidth...probable twin banked ram.

I dunno. It doesn't occur to me that the new cpu from Apple will be nothing less than platform changing. It's that radical by any conservative estimations.

Frankly, it's where the platform should be! Years of underperforming Moto' G4s have lowered expectations. They haven't lowered mine. We're due this. The Mac is due this. Did people really think Apple were going to languish on sub-2 gig processors while Intel stormed to 5 gig Pentium 5s?

Apple had to address both perception and performance and their admissions in the last year prove that they must really be working hard on the 'power'Mac problem.

The 970 may not make the toast (unless Apple delivers 'ihouse') but it will kick the snot out of any G4 based machine for Lightwave renders and flatten its gonads on any Photoshop operation.

I'll settle for that. Time and space will be bent when we have 980s in Octo workstations...

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #482 of 666
'You are reinforcing my suspicions about the iMac's manufacturing cost. A Mac for the consumer market should have been designed with low manufacturing cost as one of the goals. I hope Apple realizes their mistake and are working to reducing cost. (I know, wrong thread, but I couldn't resist commenting on what you said.)'

(What's with the quoter again? Sigh. Sometimes it works...and sometimes not...)

It's upto Apple to address this. They should have thought about costs before they 'got to it'.

15 inch LCDs are dirt cheap. And the entry level iMac2 is underwhelming from a tech viewpoint. Geforce Mx2? Yeesh. How cheap can you get? Is it the fancy steel/chrome arm? I'd love to know what it is...

Sorry to go off-topic but...they obviously didn't take enough of a beating from the Cube to take the hint.

PRICE! Do we have to drag Matsu in here to do his Mad Face thing?

Lemon Bon Bon
We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...
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post #483 of 666
Well it is going to be a long month. The hype, expectations and pessimism are really accellerating.

As for me, I would love to see an announcement or even hint at WWDC. If it happens great, if not then I will wait until it does. No big deal. I probably won't be able to buy until late summer or early fall anyway.

MacBidoulle is possibly over optimistic, and their sources are unknowns. MacWhispers is a very unknown quantity as well. Remember when he said that no way Think Secret was right about the ipod? "His Sources" said no change in the buttons, etc... In the end he had to eat those words, but at least was gracious about his apology. He was right about some other items though.

In the end it really doesn't matter that much. Something very good is coming. We don't know exactly when, but it is coming. I have no doubt that Apple will make it available ASAP, but there are more factors involved then any one source will be aware of.

Of course if Think Secret posts something, then it will be a whole new ball game. Be quick though, Apple legal won't let any good information stay up for long.

27 days and counting. Then we will know if we have to wait a little longer. 8)
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post #484 of 666
Does anyone know where the present Power Macs are assembled? California?
Yes my child, he closed quite a few threads in his day.

Locomotive
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Yes my child, he closed quite a few threads in his day.

Locomotive
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post #485 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaktai
Of course if Think Secret posts something, then it will be a whole new ball game. Be quick though, Apple legal won't let any good information stay up for long.

I have to disagree with you on that point. The last couple of times that Apple forcibly removed a rumor from a site, it was a very clear indicator that the rumor was right on. If Apple wants this to be as secret as can be, then it would be prudent to them to NOT pull the rumor down.

Besides, how would we know if that was the really accurate rumor from the one that was plain bogus...

All I can say, is that I can not wait!! (Besides, my Mac IIci is feeling really sluggish... )
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-- Mike Eggleston
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post #486 of 666
unless apple plans on using reverse-reverse phys. on us.


sorry: edit/ i think the current g4 are made in elk grove ca just outside the captiol
post #487 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Eggleston
I have to disagree with you on that point. The last couple of times that Apple forcibly removed a rumor from a site, it was a very clear indicator that the rumor was right on. If Apple wants this to be as secret as can be, then it would be prudent to them to NOT pull the rumor down.

Mostly, Apple can't do squat about rumors. They can only threaten legal action if someone publishes trade secrets or misuses their trademarks. Otherwise, their only recourse is to publicly refute rumors but their policy is to ignore them instead.
"Spec" is short for "specification" not "speculation".
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"Spec" is short for "specification" not "speculation".
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post #488 of 666
Locomotive,

Not sure about others world wide but last I heard Apples plant in Cork in the South of Ireland was still assembeling finished G4s. IBM also have a huge Production/R&D facility in north Dublin but I have no evidence of any link.
post #489 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
I would bet that 90% of us will not run a 64 bit app anytime in the next 5 years!

I'd bet that Apple would ship _something_ with the machine that's 64-bit. There were AltiVec freebies to demonstrate the speedup there -> I'd expect easy/free or ships-with-machine access to _something_ that shows a 64-bit application obliterating a 32-bit application.

So... I'm thinking a lot more than 90% of the people with 970s will run 64-bit apps. But I agree, 1% will use _use_ them productively somehow.
post #490 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevyn
I'd bet that Apple would ship _something_ with the machine that's 64-bit. There were AltiVec freebies to demonstrate the speedup there -> I'd expect easy/free or ships-with-machine access to _something_ that shows a 64-bit application obliterating a 32-bit application.

But that brings us back to Panther. I don't think the machines will ship initially with any kind of 64 bit app, since Jaguar wouldn't support them. However I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of a "demo" 64 bit app included with Panther in September or even the announcement of a high end 64 bit app announced with the release of Panther.

I really don't expect apple to "announce" the 970 PowerMacs at WWDC, though that would be very nice, but I think they will be "generically introduced" in some kind of a non-specific manner. Of course it is purely speculation on my part but I don't think Steve will want to do two major introductions at WWDC. Panther will be the WWDC focus with just enough info to let us know that shortly following an Apple Event will introduce new hardware that will take full advantage of Panther's capabilities and introduce a new generation of performance.

No matter when it happens it will be grand. This summer marks the beginning. And let's not forget that the 970 is only one part of the equation. It is not only the 970, but the system that the 970 makes possible as well.
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post #491 of 666
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevyn
I'd bet that Apple would ship _something_ with the machine that's 64-bit.

Judging from the numerous complaints I've seen from the Mac community over the last few months, I would have to say the Jaguar (and perhaps later, the Panther) calculator will get its much-needed speed boost from the new 64-bit processor.

post #492 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevyn
So... I'm thinking a lot more than 90% of the people with 970s will run 64-bit apps. But I agree, 1% will use _use_ them productively somehow.

I should have made my statment better. Sure someone could write a shareware calculator app that is 64 bits, but that doesn't mean it will run faster than a 32 bit calculator (in fact it might run slower!).

90% of us will never need to run a 64 bit app within the next 3-5 years. 32 bit apps will continute to be developed after the release of the 970s. Office, Applewoks, Mail, iTunes, iMovie, iCal, Doom 3, Quake 3, Address Book, etc will not need to be 64 bit. They wont see ANY benefits to being "ported" to 64 bits.

90% of you guys need to just imagine the 970 is a 32bit chip. The 970s advances aren't in its bitness, but rather the multitude of other advancements it has.
post #493 of 666
I can see it now: Jobs types into Calculator: 4000000000 + 4000000000 = ... See?! Panther finishes this calculation so much quicker!



Now, if Apple wants to wow people with a 64-bit platform, look no further than the markets they're trying to enter: The IT sector that Apple is currently wooing would sit up and take notice of a demonstration of Oracle 9i - not the applications, the database - running at full power on Panther. Or <insert 3D application here> rendering at much higher speeds than the G4 could hope to match.

Maybe Apple could announce 64-bit CoreAudio, allowing engineers to apply an almost infinite number of effects to audio tracks without introducing a discernable level of distortion, but I doubt it. 32 bit audio ought to be enough for anybody. 64-bit color spaces, on the other hand...

There's no shortage of possibilities, really. The 64-bit market is definitely there, although it's not a market that will be of interest to most of the installed Mac user base. But then, if you're trying to gain market share, appealing to people outside your installed base is definitely a Good Thing(TM).
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post #494 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaktai


. . . I really don't expect apple to "announce" the 970 PowerMacs at WWDC, though that would be very nice, but I think they will be "generically introduced" in some kind of a non-specific manner. Of course it is purely speculation on my part but I don't think Steve will want to do two major introductions at WWDC. . .


Apple needs to provide information about both Panther and the 970 to the developers so they can begin work on 64-bit applications. If Apple talks about the 970, it would be awkward not to mention where it will be used. I don't see how Apple can avoid announcing the PowerMacs at WWDC or before, and at WWDC makes the most sense.
post #495 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
I can see it now: Jobs types into Calculator: 4000000000 + 4000000000 = ... See?! Panther finishes this calculation so much quicker!

Heh.

Quote:
Maybe Apple could announce 64-bit CoreAudio, allowing engineers to apply an almost infinite number of effects to audio tracks without introducing a discernable level of distortion, but I doubt it. 32 bit audio ought to be enough for anybody. 64-bit color spaces, on the other hand...

Audio and colour spaces are better represented by 64-bit floating point which 32-bit PowerPCs do just fine. 64-bitness' primary benefit is in the huge address spaces so any impressive demos should leverage that. Demoing the processing of a 16 layer 64-bit per pixel 8K x 8K image would be impressive but would require a 64-bit enabled image processing app. Adobe might be able to update Photoshop, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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post #496 of 666
The MacWhispers guy (Jack whatever) has posted again in the MacRumors forum

"I have suspected that the editor of MacBidioulle has been intentionally spoofing and flaming the PPC 970 rumors, just for fun and games... as **NONE** of their past five or six published reports jives at **ALL** with what my own daily, very-real human contacts in Taiwan have been telling me about PPC 970 based Macs.

If you'll look back about 5-weeks, you'll see that the day following my MacWhispers report that PPC 970 production was surprisingly ahead of schedule, MB published a hauntingly similar piece, but with a number of "details" added as flourish. Since that time, the site has just been cranking up the intensity of the 970 drumbeat.

If anyone's really interested in first-person supplied info, from a Mac guy who's just trying to share what he knows, here's the reality:

1. 90% Confidence level: The next PowerBook is indeed going to sport a PPC 970, and have a specially built 15.4" LCD from ChiMei at a resolution higher than 1280x800

2. 90% Confidence level: The next Power Macs are still being referred to as "Power Macs" by everyone in the OEM channel, and are coming with PPC 970 chips, as well. They will have a completely new case desing, but still following the silver/gray/clear muted color schemes of recent pro machines, and will have an (at least substantially) aluminum front panel

3. 95% Confidence level: Both the Powerbook and new Power Macs are entering the production cycle "soon," whatever the hell that means.

I plan on still being around next year, and afterwards, and truly don't want to see what little reputation I've earned get fried right here and now, so I am being excrutiatingly cautious in what I report here, and on MacWhispers.

Take it for what you will. "

He seems to lay out what 970 info he has. Strange he doesn't do it on his site though.
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post #497 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
He seems to lay out what 970 info he has. Strange he doesn't do it on his site though.

Yepp, very strange. But I think I recall that he earlier said he was working under NDA from Apple now, so he had to be more careful as what to put up on the site, and therefore he post on message boards instead.
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post #498 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Yepp, very strange. But I think I recall that he earlier said he was working under NDA from Apple now, so he had to be more careful as what to put up on the site, and therefore he post on message boards instead.

Where did you hear that? I can't imagine Steve granting NDA status to any webmaster of a rumors site, especially Mac Whispers.
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post #499 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Where did you hear that? I can't imagine Steve granting NDA status to any webmaster of a rumors site, especially Mac Whispers.

He's supposedly producing the ErgoMac, DVForge, MacTable, and MacMice brands, and they are developing some new product and has gotten NDA'd by Apple because they needed "hardware information" or something like that. So he stated that he had to be more careful as what to put up on the site as Apple covered a lot in their NDA's. At least that is if this "jack" person is the same as powerjack on spymac which I think he is. I saw it in a thread some days ago, but I couldn't find it now. Oh, well.
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post #500 of 666
Yep, saw the same thing by powerjack with that discussion.
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post #501 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Where did you hear that? I can't imagine Steve granting NDA status to any webmaster of a rumors site, especially Mac Whispers.

Also would be a nice way to shut them up, wouldn't it. Give them all the information they want under NDA, hey probably give them a pre-prod powermac for the hassle. I know that would shut me up
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post #502 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
1. 90% Confidence level: The next PowerBook is indeed going to sport a PPC 970, and have a specially built 15.4" LCD from ChiMei at a resolution higher than 1280x800

Oh mommy, please let this be true as I am going to buy a new PowerBook at the next rev...
post #503 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
Oh mommy, please let this be true as I am going to buy a new PowerBook at the next rev...

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post #504 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
You're not alone my friend, you're not alone...

I sold my Titanium 400 a couple months ago and have been saving like a miser for a new one. Wouldn't it be nice if were only a month away....only time will tell.
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post #505 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
The MacWhispers guy (Jack whatever) has posted again in the MacRumors forum
...
"I plan on still being around next year, and afterwards, and truly don't want to see what little reputation I've earned get fried right here and now, so I am being excrutiatingly cautious in what I report here, and on MacWhispers.

Take it for what you will. "


If you want to know the kind of reputation he is bragging about, take a look at this.
post #506 of 666
Wasn't it in another thread here (or maybe it was another board) but this powerjack guy was just ripped by others. So I don't know if I would believe him any more than I would believe and other rumor.

Plus, if he really was under NDA and was spreading info like this (on a website or a message board, remember workerbee?), he would be hauled off.
post #507 of 666
kupan787 has a point. If he is in fact under NDA, Jack is no safer posting on MacRumors' message board than he is posting to MacWhispers, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

I smell a rat.
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post #508 of 666
I've hired Rat Control. They have scheduled an appointment on June 23rd.
post #509 of 666
IBM confirms Apple's use of POWER processors?

"Key features of the p615 include:
IBM's POWER4+ microprocessor. The POWER4+ microprocessor is a "server on a chip" that contains two one-gigahertz-plus processors, a high-bandwidth system switch, a large memory cache and I/O. IBM's POWER family of microprocessors is among the most widely used in the industry and can be found in Nintendo game consoles, Apple computers and some of the world's most powerful supercomputers and storage systems."

They don't appear to mean the G3 as they are clearly discussing the "POWER family of microprocessors", but then reference the Game Cube which doesn't use a POWER processor. Is this press release a smoking gun or just poorly worded? It will be interesting to see if it gets pulled or amended later today.
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post #510 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
IBM confirms Apple's use of POWER processors?

"Key features of the p615 include:
IBM's POWER4+ microprocessor. The POWER4+ microprocessor is a "server on a chip" that contains two one-gigahertz-plus processors, a high-bandwidth system switch, a large memory cache and I/O. IBM's POWER family of microprocessors is among the most widely used in the industry and can be found in Nintendo game consoles, Apple computers and some of the world's most powerful supercomputers and storage systems."

I don't think they mean the G3 as they are clearly discussing the "POWER family of microprocessors". Is this a smoking gun? It will be interesting to see if the press release gets pulled or amended later today.




Quote:
IBM's POWER family of microprocessors is among the most widely used in the industry and can be found in Nintendo game consoles, Apple computers

The power Family Includes all PowerPC processors.
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post #511 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by JBL
If you want to know the kind of reputation he is bragging about, take a look at this.

Thanks for the link ... very interesting indeed!

I wonder if "Jack Campbell" is even a real person, a la "Nick DePlume"?
post #512 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
IBM confirms Apple's use of POWER processors?

"Key features of the p615 include:
IBM's POWER4+ microprocessor. The POWER4+ microprocessor is a "server on a chip" that contains two one-gigahertz-plus processors, a high-bandwidth system switch, a large memory cache and I/O. IBM's POWER family of microprocessors is among the most widely used in the industry and can be found in Nintendo game consoles, Apple computers and some of the world's most powerful supercomputers and storage systems."

They don't appear to mean the G3 as they are clearly discussing the "POWER family of microprocessors", but then reference the Game Cube which doesn't use a POWER processor. Is this press release a smoking gun or just poorly worded? It will be interesting to see if it gets pulled or amended later today.

They do mean the G3 becouse Nintendoes processor is a G3 varient the IBM custom made for the GameCube.
post #513 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Yepp, very strange. But I think I recall that he earlier said he was working under NDA from Apple now, so he had to be more careful as what to put up on the site, and therefore he post on message boards instead.

Why would it be ok for someone bound by NDA to disclose secrets on a message board but not a website?

post #514 of 666
Anyone with a pc and some spare time feel like checking this out?
Its a link for a recording on "NCSG - Altivec 2" (which is probably nothing.)
post #515 of 666
This may be off topic but I'll post it anyway.

IBM is supposed to be releasing other processors in the 970 family. They publically stated the 970 is the first. In the past they have seemed to be a little more forthcoming with information about future processors. Do you think Apple will continue to convince them to keep details as sketchy for future processors or, once the 64-bit cat is out of the bag, they will give more information?
post #516 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Why would it be ok for someone bound by NDA to disclose secrets on a message board but not a website?


Either he thinks Apple won't see him on a message board or this his apparent justification to why he can.
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post #517 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by sc_markt
Anyone with a pc and some spare time feel like checking this out?
Its a link for a recording on "NCSG - Altivec 2" (which is probably nothing.)

As you said, nothing new or remotely interesting, not to me at least. I added a few shots under that shows what kind of accelerating altivec can be capable of.



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post #518 of 666
Quote:
Originally posted by Nonsuch
Thanks for the link ... very interesting indeed!

I wonder if "Jack Campbell" is even a real person, a la "Nick DePlume"?

This is who we're dealing with?! I remember his company, "DV FORGE" (has anybody actually received anything from them? Most of their stuff looks close to useless, but whatever...) complaining about not having been given appropriate space at a Macworld convention or something like that, of having been kept in the dark from Apple about a new product or something or another.

He's a character. None of the BS flowing from him should be taken with any face value whatsover.
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post #519 of 666
I was just thinking back over various rumours about the ppc 970, and a thought struck me. Some time ago, Moki hinted that not only would Apple be releasing computers based on this platform, but also, at some point, with alternative processors from AMD or Intel.

I understand the whole argument about Apple not wanting to lose hardware sales by opening OS X up to clone makers selling x86 based hardware, and that there are huge problems with getting carbon and classic apps to work, but I was just thinking that if Apple believed they could guarantee that ppc 9xx based macs had a significant performance advantage over x86 based machines running OS X, whether it might potentially open up this market.

At the moment, the best information we have suggests that the ppc 970 will match, or at least significantly close the gap to x86, as everyone is aware. Haninbal at Ars technica provided a detailed overview of this.

His assumptions were based on public info about the processor, however. Moki has hinted that this info is, at least to some degree, not strictly accurate, and that there are several key 'surprises' about the chip or it's decendents (typically, he was rather obtuse about this!)

Of course, i have no inforation to back my theory up, and i don't totally subscribe to it myself, but if Apple thought that with this chip and the rumoured ppc980 or other 9xx series chips, it could offer a decent advantage over any x86 based machine, it could introduce a x86 based version of OS X whilst reducing the likelihood that it would endanger it's PPC hardware sales. Whether this would come don t releasing it's own x86 machines or offering OS X to third party manufacturers is another matter.

Anyway, just some random musings.

It would be interesting to hear if Moki still thinks that any kind of non PPC based macs are likely in the future
post #520 of 666
Has anybody checked out Macrumors? They've got an 'oobie-doobie' link which claims some a mystery 'ports' on the 970 motherboard. Firewire 800x2 of course. Amongst others...

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