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MacBidouille posts PPC 970 benchmarks - Page 15

post #561 of 666
5/30/03 at 9:57am
Good god lets not get started with this Bochs/windows emulation again. Even I started a topic about this subject nearly 6 months ago. Can't we just move on?

Back to lurking.
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post #562 of 666
5/30/03 at 10:02am
six months ago we did not have Mike Eggleston's tidbit of info
six months ago we were not 1 month away from a machine that has the horsepower to run bochs.


I'm sure 12 months ago people would have said "good god! internet explorer won can we get over this html rendering thing and just move on?"


\
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post #563 of 666
5/30/03 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardf12
six months ago we did not have Mike Eggleston's tidbit of info
six months ago we were not 1 month away from a machine that has the horsepower to run bochs.


I'm sure 12 months ago people would have said "good god! internet explorer won can we get over this html rendering thing and just move on?"


\

Ok, then how bout this. There was a lot of talk and speculation already written about this subject- why don't we resurrect one of those threads instead of rehashing all that same information which to me is somewhat OT to this thread?

Back to lurking for real this time.
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post #564 of 666
5/30/03 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardf12
hi. sorry. no coffee yet.

as you know, safari is really made up of 2 parts. the cocoa app, windows, menus etc. and the html rendering engine. this engine is actually open source. it was started by the kde group and called khtml. apple took khtml and made is better and gave back their changes to the OS community.

the html rendering portion is called webCore. this allows 3rd party developers to "use" this rendering engine and display html code in their apps. like omniweb is doing with their next rev of their web browser. they are ditching the old rendering engine and using webcore to give them the exact capablities of safari. (plus what ever they add) itunes uses the same for the music store.

if apple did the same with the boch code (winCore?) then 3rd parties could use the winCore and build their own windows emulators.

Oh, was it that simple Just had a cup of coffee myself

Ok, so Apple makes their own emulator. An emulator that is integated in os X much like classic. I suppose Apple would make this emulation faster than anyone else, because of their knowledge of the os and hardware. Why would anyone else bother with this then?

And my previous comment stands. I think it would be very dangerous for Apple to make a seamless windows emulator environment because of the reasons stated before. Of course they can help other companies develop nice emulation environments, and I would rahter see that happen than Apple providing one.
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post #565 of 666
5/30/03 at 10:33am
oh i agree with you.

about the only thing i could think of would be to give back to the linux community a _really_ good windows emulator. that's piss off some M$ people.

another reason why would be when apple releases OSX - > Intel in Jan 2004 with a Superbowl - 1984 commerical. they would be prepared for the immediate shelving of the mac version of Office

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post #566 of 666
5/30/03 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
I should imagine that an Opteron could emulate a 1 gig G4 in its sleep. That could protect alot of software investments...

Really? Does x86-64 (or whatever it is) have enough registers now? I believe that was what was the bottleneck in emulatiing PPC (hence why there are only 68k mulators out there for x86 right now).
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post #567 of 666
5/30/03 at 11:30am
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Bochs is a Windows emulator. A Windows emulator and a PC emulator are two entirely different things.

Bochs runs under Unix/Linux on x86 machines to eliminate the need for Windows...but when those Windows apps start talking to the x86 hardware, the hardware is there and ready to listen.

Bochs would be useless (in it's currently publicly available versions, anyway) on a Macintosh PPC based machine because then the Windows apps starts to talk to x86 hardware that is really a PPC, it would choke.

Bochs would need to be turned into a full-fledged PC emulator, like Virtual PC, which means instant hits in performance. Unless Apple is working with Bochs AND designing a Virtual PC replacement of it's own, optimized for OS X, I'm not sure we have anything to talk about.

-- Ensoniq
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post #568 of 666
5/30/03 at 12:06pm
I tought Bochs ran on PPC already. I may be wrong though.

Edit:

from the Bochs homepage

Quote:
Bochs is a highly portable open source IA-32 (x86) PC emulator written in C++, that runs on most popular platforms. It includes emulation of the Intel x86 CPU, common I/O devices, and a custom BIOS. Currently, bochs can be compiled to emulate a 386, 486 or Pentium CPU. Bochs is capable of running most Operating Systems inside the emulation including Linux, Windows® 95, DOS, and recently Windows® NT 4. Bochs was written by Kevin Lawton and is currently maintained by this project.
Bochs can be compiled and used in a variety of modes, some which are still in development. The 'typical' use of bochs is to provide complete x86 PC emulation, including the x86 processor, hardware devices, and memory. This allows you to run OS's and software within the emulator on your workstation, much like you have a machine inside of a machine. For instance, let's say your workstation is a Unix/X11 workstation, but you want to run Win'95 applications. Bochs will allow you to run Win 95 and associated software on your Unix/X11 workstation, displaying a window on your workstation, simulating a monitor on a PC.
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post #569 of 666
5/30/03 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
Really? Does x86-64 (or whatever it is) have enough registers now? I believe that was what was the bottleneck in emulatiing PPC (hence why there are only 68k mulators out there for x86 right now).

That's what I've heard as well, and Opteron has only 16 (general purpose) registers compared to 32 for all PPCs.
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post #570 of 666
5/30/03 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensoniq
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Bochs is a Windows emulator.

No, it's a PC emulator. In theory it should be able to run any PC-compatible OS. You may be thinking of VMWare or VirtualPC for Windows, which let PCs run multiple OSes simultaneously, sort of like how OS 9 runs under X.

Bochs would need to be turned into a full-fledged PC emulator, like Virtual PC, which means instant hits in performance.

It already is, and you're right, performance is a major issue.
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post #571 of 666
5/30/03 at 2:32pm
NETROMac ... my apologies. You are correct. I was actually confusing WINE with Bochs, which are two different projects. WINE (again...from what I recall) emulates Windows without emulating the actual x86 platform...which apparently Bochs DOES do.

-- Ensoniq
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post #572 of 666
5/30/03 at 4:41pm
Rog over at a macrumors board (posted at 05-31-2003 12:05 AM, board time) has an interesting point about MacBidoulles reputation.\

Quote:
Uh folks, this is all from the site that claimed to have benchmarks of the 970 using a soon to be released new version of Bryce that is far into development. Guess what? Corel just announced that Bryce version 5 is it as far as the mac goes. Everything on the MB site is just totally and completely bogus, and specifically, news about Bryce is the final nail in the coffin in regards to their earlier claimed benchmarks.

Oh well.

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post #573 of 666
5/30/03 at 4:50pm
Programmer, Johnsonwax, Amorph and others.... What do you guys think of this:

Variable-precision Rendering

Paper in PDF format.


Thoughts? Speculation? An AltiVec implementation?

Perhaps someone should contact the authors and see if they're planning (or are willing to do) an AltiVec implementation.

--
Ed
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post #574 of 666
5/30/03 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Rog over at a macrumors board (posted at 05-31-2003 12:05 AM, board time) has an interesting point about MacBidoulles reputation.


quote:
Uh folks, this is all from the site that claimed to have benchmarks of the 970 using a soon to be released new version of Bryce that is far into development. Guess what? Corel just announced that Bryce version 5 is it as far as the mac goes. Everything on the MB site is just totally and completely bogus, and specifically, news about Bryce is the final nail in the coffin in regards to their earlier claimed benchmarks.


Oh well.

I read that too. Its possible that bryce was "just" cancelled. But what is looking more and more probable is that macbippyboopy is either receiving or giving false info...
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post #575 of 666
5/30/03 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardf12
I read that too. Its possible that bryce was "just" cancelled. But what is looking more and more probable is that macbippyboopy is either receiving or giving false info...

I vote for giving.
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post #576 of 666
5/30/03 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensoniq
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Bochs is a Windows emulator. A Windows emulator and a PC emulator are two entirely different things.

Bochs runs under Unix/Linux on x86 machines to eliminate the need for Windows...but when those Windows apps start talking to the x86 hardware, the hardware is there and ready to listen.

No, Bochs is a PC emulator that emulates an x86 processor and chipset. It does not eliminate the need for Windows for Linux machines.

It's so incredibly slow that it doesn't eliminate the need for anything other than patience. Consider it to be a horribly slow implementation of RealPC/VirtualPC.
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post #577 of 666
5/30/03 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally posted by 3.1416
Bochs would need to be turned into a full-fledged PC emulator, like Virtual PC, which means instant hits in performance.

It already is, and you're right, performance is a major issue.

VirtualPC is roughly 100x faster than Bochs is. Bochs would hope it became more like VirtualPC
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post #578 of 666
5/30/03 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
I vote for giving.

As the Bible says, it's better to give than to receive.

If true, this takes an already large hole in their credibility and widens it some - the benchmarks smelled funny even if you granted them a developmental build of Bryce 6.

And, of course, the recent press release does not mean that there never was a build of Bryce 6 for OS X. Half-LIfe for Mac made it all the way to release candidate before it was axed...

Whether this means that all of their information is bogus is impossible to say, but they've gone pretty far out on a limb, and we'll probably know within weeks if that limb can support them.
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post #579 of 666
5/30/03 at 7:55pm
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post #580 of 666
5/30/03 at 10:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
VirtualPC is roughly 100x faster than Bochs is. Bochs would hope it became more like VirtualPC

Talking about pc emulators. According to SpyMac it looks like FWB's RealPC for Mac OS X is delayed.
Quote:
FWB's Mark Prewitt told Spymac this:

"With the recent updates to 10.2 and the upcoming release of Panther, we have elected to delay the product by a few weeks to better deal with some technical issues that have risen,"
...
"We should be back on track and will be putting some kind of update on our web site shortly."
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post #581 of 666
5/30/03 at 11:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Talking about pc emulators. According to SpyMac it looks like FWB's RealPC for Mac OS X is delayed.

That's alright. Better to take their time and bring out a good product, then to rush it and have to deal with bugs (other then the big one called Windows).
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post #582 of 666
5/31/03 at 12:04am
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
And, of course, the recent press release does not mean that there never was a build of Bryce 6 for OS X. Half-LIfe for Mac made it all the way to release candidate before it was axed...

Speaking of Half-Life, Wouldn't it be great if Steve showed off the mac os X version of Half-Life 2 running on the new 970 powermacs with nvidiaFX running at massive PC-crushing frame-rates.
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post #583 of 666
5/31/03 at 1:55am
Well here is my best semi-accurate translation of MacBidoulle's latest.

Quote:
Rumour: the motherboard of the PPC 970, still - Lionel -
08:47:38

Good, take this all that with more extreme precaution each
time.

The bi-processor motherboard should have in all 8 slots memory. There would be 4 per CPU of them. These sites are ?? and already compatible
with the SIMS of 4 Ghz. One will thus have a maximum memory size of 32 Ghz!! We are unaware of completely how Mac will manage with its RAM. We do not know if each processor will have its memory allocated with possible Twin Bank or if the slots of 4 in fact are paired to make a
Twin Bank between the two.

Subsidiary question: How much will the gigabytes of RAM cost in the ultimate PowerMac 970 with 32.
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post #584 of 666
5/31/03 at 1:59am
I think that's GB(gigabyte) - not Ghz.
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post #585 of 666
5/31/03 at 3:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
I think that's GB(gigabyte) - not Ghz.

Yes, I mis-typed. Thanks for catching that.
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post #586 of 666
5/31/03 at 7:31am
From the same MacRumors thread that disputes the initial MacDoobie benchmarks; in reference to the mystery ports on the rumoured new main logic board...

Another cryptic burst transmission from our good buddy moki...



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mac Messenger
Like I said before. The Fibre it true. The digital is true. Let there be no more wondering. What is the next subject?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Is that a toslink in your pocket, or are ya just glad to see me?


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FYI - Toslink = Digital Audio connection = SPDIF


I doubt Apple would saddle prosumers with the added cost of Fibre Channel on the main logic board; but I have no problem accepting that they might place Fibre on workstation-class machines...

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post #587 of 666
5/31/03 at 8:29am
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post #588 of 666
5/31/03 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by AirSluf
Toslink would make sense put together with 5.1 or 7.1 sound. You would have a nice loss free link into your home stereo system. Another potential extension along the digital hub strategy.

This would be a very clever inclusion in new macs. A lot of hifi/sorround amplifiers can take toslink input, and it would ensure great DA-conversion (if the amp has a great DA converter) and therefore great sound. It would also eliminate electrical noice coming from the computer chip/components. More of a "hi-fi" mac if you know what I mean. It would be a great addition to music proffesionals.
And as toslink is quite commonly used in hi-fi/surround equipement, I would guess that the technology needed for this would be fairly cheap to include.
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post #589 of 666
5/31/03 at 2:49pm
shades of the quadra 840AV? 2003 style?

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post #590 of 666
5/31/03 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
And as toslink is quite commonly used in hi-fi/surround equipement, I would guess that the technology needed for this would be fairly cheap to include.

A more interesting technology (as seen from an Apple point of view) is finally getting implemented in audio systems:

Quote:
The very latest incarnation of the 'AX10' is the new VSA-AX10i-S, featuring Pioneer's revolutionary Advanced Resolution Digital Audio Interface. IEEE1394 - alternatively known as i.LINK or FireWire - is the new industry standard interface for the secure digital transmission of high-resolution audio from DVD-Audio and SACD sources. Pioneer's state-of-the-art universal DVD player features an i.LINK output, while the VSA-AX10i-S now includes a matching i.LINK input for unprecedented fidelity when playing the latest music releases on DVD-Audio and SACD. With sufficient power delivery and transparency to preserve the enormous dynamic range and pure clarity of today's higher resolution digital recordings, the VSA-AX10i-S includes 7.1-channel line inputs and outputs for all requirements.
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post #591 of 666
5/31/03 at 6:18pm
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post #592 of 666
5/31/03 at 10:11pm
I'm glad Pioneer's living up to their namesake; FireWire is such an obvious means to simplify and improve the quality of home entertainment systems as whole. I imagine one day just being able to daisychain TV to VCR/DVD-R to receiver to whatever else there is all via FireWire. No cable mess, no confusion.

FireWire does have the bandwidth to support real-time transmission of HD video, right? Or is coax/component/RCA still the only means?
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post #593 of 666
5/31/03 at 11:27pm
I second that emotion. Although they still refer to it as iLink. (Didn't the standards board agree to switch to "Firewire")?

Cost? $4500. Yowch!

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post #594 of 666
6/1/03 at 12:44am
Quote:
Originally posted by fred_lj
I'm glad Pioneer's living up to their namesake; FireWire is such an obvious means to simplify and improve the quality of home entertainment systems as whole. I imagine one day just being able to daisychain TV to VCR/DVD-R to receiver to whatever else there is all via FireWire. No cable mess, no confusion.

Check out MaGIC (http://magic.gibson.com/)

It sounds cool, but looks to be more for production and performances. But who knows, maybe it will trickle down to the consumer/prosumer markets. I don't want to sound like I know much about it, someone just passed word of it on to me recently.
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post #595 of 666
6/1/03 at 1:11am
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
This would be a very clever inclusion in new macs. A lot of hifi/sorround amplifiers can take toslink input, and it would ensure great DA-conversion (if the amp has a great DA converter) and therefore great sound. It would also eliminate electrical noice coming from the computer chip/components. More of a "hi-fi" mac if you know what I mean. It would be a great addition to music proffesionals.

You mean the kind of professionals who use Shake and Logic?
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post #596 of 666
6/1/03 at 2:01am
Quote:
Originally posted by fred_lj
I'm glad Pioneer's living up to their namesake; FireWire is such an obvious means to simplify and improve the quality of home entertainment systems as whole. I imagine one day just being able to daisychain TV to VCR/DVD-R to receiver to whatever else there is all via FireWire. No cable mess, no confusion.

FireWire does have the bandwidth to support real-time transmission of HD video, right? Or is coax/component/RCA still the only means?

You mean like this?

And yes, it can handle HDTV.

Pioneer isn't a member though, but they seem to be going the same way.
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post #597 of 666
6/1/03 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
You mean the kind of professionals who use Shake and Logic?

Why does this sound like a trick question ??
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post #598 of 666
6/1/03 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Why does this sound like a trick question ??

When does Moki not sound like a trick question?
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post #599 of 666
6/1/03 at 8:40am
I think moki's lost it.
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post #600 of 666
6/1/03 at 8:51am
Ah but I suspect he knows where he last had it.
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