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New Powerbooks + iBooks 6. nov! - Page 4

post #121 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by warpd:
<strong>I hate to say it, but I really think that Firewire/Apple are in trouble. Check the marketplace, every new PC motherboard is now coming with USB 2 built in. Also loads of notebooks have it. It is just so easy for Intel to leverage their weight with the board makers, as they need Intel's support "chip side". I am worried about the future of firewire. I think Apple is too, hence the "open sourcing" of the name a couple of months ago. Will it be enough? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

how quickly everyone forgets.

set wayback machine to 1998... pc makers are including usb on all of their new machines, but still also including legacy poirts such as parallel for maximum backward compatibility. users who were already rationalizing buying cheaper pc's to meet their needs were also assessing their own needs and realized, hey, i don't need that usb port. so why should i care? and trying to get third party peripheral makers to support usb, when no one cared, was akin to herding chickens.

then what happens..?

apple introduces the computer you want to have, the imac. except, usb ONLY. period. want backward compatibility? you'll have to invest in backwards-compatible adapters. get on board, or be left behind. apple drove usb down 5% of the market's throat. and all the peripheral makers went... geez. 5% of the installed user base is still a HELL of a lot of profit, as long as i can be first-to-market. you then got ALL the third-party manufacturers making usb compatible devices (and, strangely enough, all in bondi blue enclosures.. i wonder why???). and THEN joe/jane consumer saw something really cool, wanted it, relaized it was only usb compatible, and THAT drove him/her to buy usb on his/her next computer. gosh, guess steve didn't just pull that "the computer is the hub to your digital lifestyle" completely out of his ass, did he?

put usb2 on all the computers you want. but until someone forces the issue so that third-party makers start making something more interesting than cd burners and hard drives (which are still immensely cheaper to buy as internals into a cheap pc tower rig), it will NOT take off. period.

don't even get me started on the damn floppy issue.

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: rok ]</p>
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post #122 of 154
I'll take FW over USB any day. And i'l take FW2 over USB2 any day and i'll take FW3 over USB3 any day. Well, just stating it now so in 2 years when someone here complains that FW3 and Apple are dead I won't have to repeat myself.
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post #123 of 154
Rok: I don't disagree with a single thing that you just said!

Someone mentioned on the last page the most high end MB's do come with Firewire. That is my point! In about 3 months , EVERY PC motherboard will have USB 2! the reason that only high end boards have FW is that it is still costing them too much $$. In the bargain basement, crappy assed PC market, price is all that matters. It is the low end that you need to get to start a "standard". That is why Apple was so wildly succesfull at driving USB. Every mac had it. They introed it in their lowest end system at the time, and within a few months it was accross the line. If Apple and the ieee1394 assoc want to see what is clearly on every level a better technology than USB 2 take off, they have to get it out there!!!

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]</p>
post #124 of 154
Ok, I've finally gotten peeved enough about the Firewire/USB debate to actually register and post a comment. Look what you have driven me to.

Just like Serial and Parallel existed on older machines, each of these interconnects have their uses. Firewire and Firewire2 for high bandwidth, low latency usage. CD/DVD drives, high speed hard drives, video cameras, and anything else that wants to move lots of data. USB is designed for peripherals, your keyboard, mouse, and the like. Look at all the USB CD burners that make more coasters than CDs because USB can't keep the throughput up.

So yes, it would be nice to see USB2.0, but my inkling is that Apple will not do so until it has Firewire2 also. Of course, there are still few devices for each, but you're buying a computer for the next 2-3 years, not this week (note to the dude asking why anyone would need 64mb VRAM in a notebook). However, until Apple revamps the iBook/TiBook completely you won't see either of these.

And, now that I'm started, i'll just continue:
All you subnotebook people, my guess is that if Apple ever made one you would be unhappy with the specs. It will have a tiny hard drive, potentially no optical drive, and a tiny screen at 1024x768 resolution. Sure, this is a bump up from the 800x600 I'm running, but it still really isn't enough for OS X.

All you anti-bluetooth people, who knows. Apple's attempting to drive technology (again) that could make your life easier. Half of the problem with bluetooth is people haven't found the killer applications for it. iSync in itself probably isn't the killer app, but it's definitely a tremendous start. Just remember, bluetooth is to usb as 802.11 is to firewire. Each has it's uses.

Finally to all you G4 in an iBook people (the worst of the lot), well, I agree with you all. Not gonna see it tomorrow though. And really, give the 14" more resolution or put a nice widescreen 13" or sumptin. 1024x768 just isn't enough. I said I could deal with 800x600 when I bought my iBook, and I don't wanna say I can deal with 1024x768 either when I know I'll be unhappy in a year.
post #125 of 154
**GUT FEELING**


We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

Continue with your regularly scheduled programming...

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post #126 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>

mm, they usually don't delve into rumors so this very interesting indeed. However, as memory serves, I'm still gonna stick to thinksecret's predictions until proven wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Think Secret sometimes gets things right, but AtAT is 100%.
post #127 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by JBL:
<strong>

Think Secret sometimes gets things right, but AtAT is 100%.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not last year. The two solid reporters of rumors (Naked Mole Rat & ATAT) were both wrong more than once last year. These days it's anyone's guess...
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post #128 of 154
USB2.0 vs Firewire.

Firewire is the better technology by far for high bandwidth multimedia applications, drives, burners, etc etc... USB is a nice cheap universal connector for keyboards and mice, tablets and printers.

Damn Intel for even thinking of USB2, but they did, and it's here, and more periphs are comming to it than to Firewire cause it's cheap and it's gonna be on everything. MP3 players, still cams especially, and scanners.

Pisses me off, but that's the situation, and Apple needs to deal with it. Consumers want affordable peripherals and with this bastard USB2 out there, there's less incentive to make affordable firewire peripherals. With USB2, one port covers all of your low and high-speed customers, so a lot of manufacturers will skip firewire entirely, which sucks. Just look a still cameras, with battery an sensor technology the way it is they need a convenient recharging scheme and a way to move lots of multiMB/MP images from camera to computer, perfect for firewire, yet apart from some high-end units, they're all USB and moving to USB2... Even Sony's cameras, and they were the other early champion of firewire on the computer. Video, and HAVi, will assure that firewire stays around and grows, but USB2 is already having an effect on the availibility of cheap firewire periphs.
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post #129 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
<strong>**GUT FEELING**

We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Would Apple need to run down the existing stocks just to announce a price cut? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Ignore your gut, obey your head
post #130 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
<strong>

Not last year. The two solid reporters of rumors (Naked Mole Rat & ATAT) were both wrong more than once last year. These days it's anyone's guess...</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> :confused: <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Really? I don't remember AtAT being wrong about anything but the timing of the introductions at MWSF (and they corrected that long before the event).
But I am getting old and senile. Could one of you younger folk remind me what they were wrong about?
post #131 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>USB2.0 vs Firewire.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't see why we can't have both.
We currently have USB 1.1 and Firewire.
In the future, why can't we have USB 2.0 and Gigawire ?
post #132 of 154
I have seen some tests and USB2 was really crappy. FW was so much more better. USB2 is like as crappy as original IBM PC specification.
post #133 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
<strong>**GUT FEELING**


We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

Continue with your regularly scheduled programming...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is my increasing feeling too. The new Superdrive/Variable Bus Speed/Radeon 9000/Whatever Powerbooks won't be ready until MWSF, but Steve has to do something, so bang, a simple price cut.

The fact that the Power Couple display promo applies to the Powerbook line through Dec. 31st may also indicate the current models will stick around a bit longer.
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post #134 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Ensign Pulver:
<strong>

This is my increasing feeling too. The new Superdrive/Variable Bus Speed/Radeon 9000/Whatever Powerbooks won't be ready until MWSF, but Steve has to do something, so bang, a simple price cut.

The fact that the Power Couple display promo applies to the Powerbook line through Dec. 31st may also indicate the current models will stick around a bit longer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think the Display promo has more to do with the displays being overpriced than they do about no new powerbooks.
post #135 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
<strong>**GUT FEELING**


We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

Continue with your regularly scheduled programming...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea, ignore your gut. The channel is thinning, shipping pushed back, inventory almost non existant. They could sell the rest of the PBs without a price cut in less then 2 months. So why put out a price cut that would clear the inventory in well under 2 months? What will they do for the weeks before MWSF with no PBs in stock anywhere?

I think your gut is saying something else, like it's lunch time.
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post #136 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by warpd:
<strong>I hate to say it, but I really think that Firewire/Apple are in trouble. Check the marketplace, every new PC motherboard is now coming with USB 2 built in. Also loads of notebooks have it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Most notebooks (by far) also sport FireWire (if only the 4-pin connector).


[quote]<strong>It is just so easy for Intel to leverage their weight with the board makers, as they need Intel's support "chip side". I am worried about the future of firewire.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

As far as I remember, Intel was actually actively involved in the design of FireWire 2, and in that case I don't think we'd have to worry about its future.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #137 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by der Kopf:
<strong>Instead of all that useless-for-many fad called bluetooth, why don't they incorporate the new industry standard USB 2 on their portables (is USB 2.0 part of the towers allready?).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope, it's not on the Mac towers yet. But unlike the portables, you just can add a PCI card for those.


[quote]<strong>As I have heard, USB 2.0 is cheaper to implement than firewire, and it is still faster than the current firewire offerings.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's only faster on paper. In real world applications, USB2 is almost always slower than FireWire.


[quote]<strong>Moreover, I see implementations of USB 2.0 rather than firewire in digital cameras and the like.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's only for still cams, though. DV is intinamtely linked to FireWire, and I don't think this is going to change any time soon.


[quote]<strong>Needless to say, I don't care what Steve thinks I should think, I want USB 2.0!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I do agree USB2 should be added ASAP.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #138 of 154
Bluetooth as standard, and RendezVous easy connectivity has less to do with connecting to/through and/or syncing with mobile phones than with Switch'n'Use keyboards, mice, printers, scanners, speakers, microphones, pens....

Add to that, C2 connectivity to near-future Home Entertainment units of any kind...

Jobs is as excited about Bluetooth these days, as Gates is about TabletPCs.

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post #139 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by JBL:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> :confused: <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Really? I don't remember AtAT being wrong about anything but the timing of the introductions at MWSF (and they corrected that long before the event).
But I am getting old and senile. Could one of you younger folk remind me what they were wrong about?</strong><hr></blockquote>

they predicted superdrive powerbooks for the last revision...

they were also wrong about something else, but i dont remember either...
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post #140 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:
<strong>

I don't see why we can't have both.
We currently have USB 1.1 and Firewire.
In the future, why can't we have USB 2.0 and Gigawire ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

oh, for pete's sake, how many times do i have to post this? from the us patent and trademark office, afetr searching for "gigawire" under trademarks reveals the following information, as supplied by its originator, apple computer (and i quote):

"...Telecommunication services, namely, local and long distance transmission of voice, data, and graphics by means of computer, telephone, telegraphic, cable, and satellite transmission; telecommunication services, namely telecommunications gateway services, ISDN services; cellular telephone communication services; electronic transmission of data and documents via computer terminals, communication by telephone, facsimile transmission; electronic mail (E-MAIL) services; electronic transmission of messages, data and images; electronic communication between computer peripherals and devices; providing electronic information about in the field of telecommunications via the Internet..."

and ALSO

"...electrical and electronic equipment comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors and parts therefor; computer hardware; computers; computer firmware for the transmission of digital data; computer peripheral devices comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors, scanners, smart monitors, modems, printers, disk drives, namely fixed, floppy, cartridge and tape drives, CD-ROM drives, CD-Recordable (CD-R) drives, CD-Rewritable (CD-RW) drives; DVD-ROM (Read only DVD) drives, and Rewritable DVD (DVD-RAM) drives; handheld computers; telephones, mobile telephones, telecommunications equipment and devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; wireless information devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; computer software programs for the transmission of digital data; computer operating programs, computer utility programs; computer utility programs for use with computers, telecommunications equipment and devices and computer peripheral devices."

so there you have it... gigawire is apple's super-duper, end-all and be-all, everything-goes-through-one-friggin'-cord standard (basically, anything that can't be transmitted through thin air, like airport or bluetooth).
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #141 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by rok:
<strong>

oh, for pete's sake, how many times do i have to post this? from the us patent and trademark office, afetr searching for "gigawire" under trademarks reveals the following information, as supplied by its originator, apple computer (and i quote):

"...Telecommunication services, namely, local and long distance transmission of voice, data, and graphics by means of computer, telephone, telegraphic, cable, and satellite transmission; telecommunication services, namely telecommunications gateway services, ISDN services; cellular telephone communication services; electronic transmission of data and documents via computer terminals, communication by telephone, facsimile transmission; electronic mail (E-MAIL) services; electronic transmission of messages, data and images; electronic communication between computer peripherals and devices; providing electronic information about in the field of telecommunications via the Internet..."

and ALSO

"...electrical and electronic equipment comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors and parts therefor; computer hardware; computers; computer firmware for the transmission of digital data; computer peripheral devices comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors, scanners, smart monitors, modems, printers, disk drives, namely fixed, floppy, cartridge and tape drives, CD-ROM drives, CD-Recordable (CD-R) drives, CD-Rewritable (CD-RW) drives; DVD-ROM (Read only DVD) drives, and Rewritable DVD (DVD-RAM) drives; handheld computers; telephones, mobile telephones, telecommunications equipment and devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; wireless information devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; computer software programs for the transmission of digital data; computer operating programs, computer utility programs; computer utility programs for use with computers, telecommunications equipment and devices and computer peripheral devices."

so there you have it... gigawire is apple's super-duper, end-all and be-all, everything-goes-through-one-friggin'-cord standard (basically, anything that can't be transmitted through thin air, like airport or bluetooth).</strong><hr></blockquote>

So it's FW2 right?
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post #142 of 154
Firewire is faster than USB 2.0. The speed limitations are theoretical and never actuallly reached benchmarks have showed this

Thinksecret is usually right on with their info. Not to mention that powerpage is also getting very similar info which just adds more creedence. i guess we'l find out in about 12 hours.
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post #143 of 154
Actually powerpage is contradicting thinksecret by saying no PBs until MWSF. I'll stick with thinksecret, at least thru tomorrow
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post #144 of 154
Only about six hours away. I can't count on one hand the number of people I know that're just waiting for the $999 iBook to hit the site, so they can plunk down their cold, hard plastic and make their first foray into the world of Mac OS X.
post #145 of 154
No New Powerbook.
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post #146 of 154
Yes. New Powerbook.
post #147 of 154
bumped and less costly ibooks today
less costly powerbooks today,
new (enclosure and features) powerbook at MWSF
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post #148 of 154
....

[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: apple.otaku ]</p>
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post #149 of 154
Upgraded iBooks/Lower Prices Today
Upgraded PowerBooks/Lower Prices Today

Upgraded PowerBooks w/ Superdrive in January

iBook G4 w/ new enclosure in July
PowerBook G5 w/ new enclosure in September

Stuck in an infinite loop waiting for an Apple PDA...

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post #150 of 154
I'll have a bet thet the next generation of DV video cameras have USB2 and NO Firewire connection

I expect Sony to start this trend.
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post #151 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
<strong>I'll have a bet thet the next generation of DV video cameras have USB2 and NO Firewire connection

I expect Sony to start this trend.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Sony's plans are to use USB2 for digital cameras and Firewire2 for DV. Regardless, Firewire1 is still better than USB2 for such tasks. I just wish Apple would start pushing Firewire2. Hard. If not, what you say will eventually come true. It's important that Apple support both side by side though as USB2 is not going to go away.

[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: apple.otaku ]</p>
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post #152 of 154
What I don't understand is I believe Apple stated that they expected slightly increased revenue for this quarter...how can they do this while lowering the prices of everything? I can see how the iPod might be the saviour of the quarter but I am not sure they should be counting on this...
post #153 of 154
[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
<strong>I'll have a bet thet the next generation of DV video cameras have USB2 and NO Firewire connection

I expect Sony to start this trend.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think so. Sony has invested a lot in FireWire, while USB 2 doesn't offer significant advantages. Unnecessary change in big business is a big no-no. Sony would have to rewrite software and redesign hardware for basically no reasonable gains. With IEEE 1394b and bandwidth hungry innovations approaching , forward thinking Sony should be looking toward that instead.
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post #154 of 154
SONY and Apple (or vice versa) have invented FireWire (ka IEEE1394) together. So I guess it's extremely unlikely that SONY will include USB2 into DV-Cams. Also consider that USB2 has significant disadvantages compared to FW(1|2). Real world throughput is a lot better for FireWire. FW also has better PowerSupply as well as direct device transfers, etc. FW simply is the superior technology.
I personally expect future camcorders to record to HD instead of tape, so the increased throughput that FW2 will deliver can be of much benefit in terms of transfer time.
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