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New PPC 970 Laptops

post #1 of 123
6/8/03 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
Ok, after doing some sluthing I came across a PPC 970 pdf that IBM has on there site.

http://www3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/te...70_MPF2002.pdf

Noting that on page 14 it shows the specs on the new PPC 970. The 1.8ghz dissipates 48 wats of heat... this is fine for the new line of PMs but far too high for the new TiBooks... Just below, it then stats that a PPC 970 running at 1.2ghz will only dissipate 19 wats and draw 1.1 volts. This is perfect for the new TiBooks, and it would be a healthy speed bump to the whole line.

I for one would like to have a 64-bit PPC in my lap.

Would this be the first 64-bit laptop created?
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post #2 of 123
6/8/03 at 11:47am
Sun had a sparc laptop for a while. not sure what "bit" the chip was though.
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post #3 of 123
6/8/03 at 12:07pm
Jobs was serious when he said it's the year of the laptops.

I think a 970 based 15 inch PowerBook is a given at WWDC.

Also a 970 based desktop

and some kind of bluetooth capable "better than a PDA" device.

3P
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post #4 of 123
6/8/03 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
I took a look at suns website but there is no sign of a laptop (32 or 64 bit)... must have been a complete failure.

I have heard about the uncomfortably warm feeling people notice using the 12 inch TiBook. Hopefully the lower displaced wattage takes care of the problem.
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post #5 of 123
6/8/03 at 12:17pm
i think they stopped selling it years ago.

many many people at sun have moved up to powerbook titaniums and the unix OSX provides for it.

even gosling the "father" of java moved to a powerbook.
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post #6 of 123
6/8/03 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by \\/\\/ickes
I took a look at suns website but there is no sign of a laptop (32 or 64 bit)... must have been a complete failure.

I have heard about the uncomfortably warm feeling people notice using the 12 inch TiBook. Hopefully the lower displaced wattage takes care of the problem.

The Sun laptop was around in the mid 1990s. We had one at work. It wasn't bad, but clunky slow. They stopped making them shortly afterwards.
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post #7 of 123
6/8/03 at 12:48pm
  • Anders
  • Feared and Biased Moderator
Quote:
Originally posted by MacJedai
The Sun laptop was around in the mid 1990s. We had one at work. It wasn't bad, but clunky slow. They stopped making them shortly afterwards.

There is still laptops with sparcs out there...
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post #8 of 123
6/8/03 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
There is still laptops with sparcs out there...

Like here.

Love the line, "PARCLE® notebooks from Tadpole® are the most affordable, full featured UNIX notebooks money can buy." What about an iBook?
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post #9 of 123
6/8/03 at 1:00pm
Quote:
_440MHz, 500MHz or 650MHz UltraSPARC® processors

gee unless Sun gets their mghz up all their customers are going to switch to Windows. blah blah blah..


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post #10 of 123
6/8/03 at 2:22pm
Having the world's first 64 bit laptop would be irrestible to showman Jobs in 'The Year of the Laptop.'

September at the latest?

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post #11 of 123
6/8/03 at 2:52pm
How much power do the current G4 processors use in comparision to this 19w figure?
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post #12 of 123
6/8/03 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Masker
Jobs was serious when he said it's the year of the laptops.

I think a 970 based 15 inch PowerBook is a given at WWDC.

Amen...and here's hopin.
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post #13 of 123
6/8/03 at 6:25pm
From here (on page 15):

The 7457 uses:

at 1GHz, 15.8W Typical, 22W Max.
at 1.3GHz, 18.7W Typical, 26W Max.

So if we assume the 970's 19W corresponds to what Moto calls the "typical rating", then at 1.2GHz the 970 is in line with a 1.3GHz 7457 G4.

Also note that the current G4 used in Powerbooks is a 7455, so it's typical power consumption is probably going to be higher than that for the 7457. A 1GHz 7455 may consume as much power as a 1.3GHz 7457...

[edit-- from here, it looks like the 7455 uses 15W typical, 22W max.]
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post #14 of 123
6/8/03 at 6:41pm
Thread Starter 
Something smells fishy...
Why would apple need such monstrous heatsinks in there line of PMs when the chip only gives off around 20 watts each. I have seen Athlon based PCs running around 65-75 watts with much smaller heatsink and fan setups. Also the PDF Gamblor just linked to stats that the typical watts are after the I/O power and PLL power are taken out.
Smelly alright...
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post #15 of 123
6/8/03 at 6:46pm
Remember that the fastest 7455 listed in the PDF is 1GHz... I'd expect the 1.25 & 1.42 GHz G4s to consume quite a bit more power (perhaps twice as much at 1.42GHz, if not more).

[edit-- I should also note that Apple has traditionally tried to build their machines to be quieter than the typical PC. I'd imagine that's at least partially responsible for the massive heat sinks on current machines, even if they didn't really succeed in reaching their goal.]
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post #16 of 123
6/8/03 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by \\/\\/ickes
Something smells fishy...
Why would apple need such monstrous heatsinks in there line of PMs when the chip only gives off around 20 watts each. I have seen Athlon based PCs running around 65-75 watts with much smaller heatsink and fan setups. Also the PDF Gamblor just linked to stats that the typical watts are after the I/O power and PLL power are taken out.
Smelly alright...

Also remember that the towers are duals, and therefore the large heat sinks are needed. Dual 1.4GHz could be giving off around 50+ watts (maybe more, this is just trying to guess based on the 1GHz part). The single 1GHz probably could go without the large heatsink, but problably it is easyer (and cheaper) for Apple to have a "one size fits all" strategy here.

[EDIT] I just reread your post. If it is true that you have seen PCs which dissipate 65-70 watts, with smaller fan/heatsink setups what is Apple doing? Or are the numbers MOT is putting out not exactly correct?
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post #17 of 123
6/8/03 at 8:17pm
Thread Starter 
Off topic but...

What if they created a new case that has heatsinks around the outside and heatpiped the heatsink to the case, this would cut the noise.

I got the idea from...
http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/hush/
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post #18 of 123
6/8/03 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally posted by \\/\\/ickes
Something smells fishy...
Why would apple need such monstrous heatsinks in there line of PMs when the chip only gives off around 20 watts each. I have seen Athlon based PCs running around 65-75 watts with much smaller heatsink and fan setups. Also the PDF Gamblor just linked to stats that the typical watts are after the I/O power and PLL power are taken out.
Smelly alright...

The chips that Apple uses in the current Power Macs are low-voltage 7455s (MPC7455B?) that run quite hot. They're a little different than the regular 7455 used in PowerBooks.
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post #19 of 123
6/8/03 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Masker
Jobs was serious when he said it's the year of the laptops.

I think a 970 based 15 inch PowerBook is a given at WWDC.

Also a 970 based desktop

and some kind of bluetooth capable "better than a PDA" device.

3P

While Apple is not going to go into the telecom market, PDA would look like a viable option as Palm isn't seeing it's better days.

It would seem likely that the 15" version would be the first to get the upgrade also, but it would make more sense to do the 17" while your at it.
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post #20 of 123
6/8/03 at 10:15pm
Thread Starter 
While there at it...
Introduce the dual PPC970 23" TiBook, as a kicker it doubles as a snowboard.
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post #21 of 123
6/8/03 at 10:41pm
I'm not so sure about the whole 970 in PowerBooks coming out so soon. I think apple is going to be hard pressed to get the towers out the door. We may see 970 powerbooks later in the year. The G4 is not such a bad chip for Laptops. Moto is headed to the embedded market and they would probably be better at Laptop chip making that IBM. The new 7457 with the low K tech could be a great plus for battery life.
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post #22 of 123
6/8/03 at 10:51pm
unless of course they're getting a fair number of chips that only sample at 1.2 Ghz which they don't want to put in towers.

if every batch has a certain percentage that can only run at 1.2Ghz, you gotta put 'em somewhere.....

although i haven't heard beans about a laptop.
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post #23 of 123
6/8/03 at 11:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
unless of course they're getting a fair number of chips that only sample at 1.2 Ghz which they don't want to put in towers.

if every batch has a certain percentage that can only run at 1.2Ghz, you gotta put 'em somewhere.....

although i haven't heard beans about a laptop.

And your right, the laptop front seems to be silent. I just think apple has enough to deal with as it is. The PowerBooks will get updates in time. The towers have top priority as it is.
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post #24 of 123
6/8/03 at 11:15pm
I think we don't have enough public information up which to judge wheter or not Apple is likely to produce a 970 based laptop in the very near future.

This case is a little different than the usual wait for faster G4s which seems more akin to the Perils of Pauline than engineering.

You have to think that Apple and IBM have been collaborating on the 970 for well over a year. They may have had samples for the desing team to work with for over a year.

I'd surmise that it is in the realm of possibility for Apple to have a 970 based laptop this summer. Certainly there would be difficulties managing the heat and battery load. On the other hand, we have had no recent power drain information (that I know of). The figure of 19W @1.2GHz is rather dated and so does not apply to actual chips coming off the production line. This could be better or worse than the earlier figure.

In the end I think the decision rested with senior management to either be aggressive and risk coming out with a flawed product or to be conservative and miss several months of sales.
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post #25 of 123
6/8/03 at 11:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Algol
Hey when can we get avatars? I like the dragon/snake you have alcimedes. We should all be able to have them too!

Trogdor the Burninator.

All in all, the chances of seeing a PPC 970-based laptop before or even alongside new towers are pretty low.

The luxurious 17" PowerBook is a the most likely place for a portable 970 to debut, but that doesn't mean that we won't see an aluminium 15" with an upclocked 7457 really soon.

Integrating an entirely new enclosure, motherboard and processor is a lot to take on in one go. Recall that big tech introductions from Apple have traditionally kept some holdover from the previous generation they replaced: G4s in the El Capitan case, for example.
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post #26 of 123
6/9/03 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
unless of course they're getting a fair number of chips that only sample at 1.2 Ghz which they don't want to put in towers.

if every batch has a certain percentage that can only run at 1.2Ghz, you gotta put 'em somewhere.....

although i haven't heard beans about a laptop.

This is unlikely. Most people misunderstand the low power 1.2GHz/1.1V part. When the chips are tested they are tested at different voltages and frequencies, parts which operate at say 1.8GHz @ 1.3V, will then be tested at a lower voltage and may make it to 1.2GHz @ 1.1V, because they have good fast transistors which can operate at the lower voltage, these will be the best chips available.

So, the low power chips are not the slowest bin chips, but amongst the fastest bin chips, and this is why they often command a premium over the upper speed bin chips.

There are inaccuracies in this description, but it's a reasonable explanation.

michael
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post #27 of 123
6/9/03 at 8:04am
I haven't seen anyone here mention it, so I'll throw it out there...

might the rumors of the "longer, narrower" motherboard be for the 17" P'book? Seriously, think about it...and I don't recall ever seeing a rumor that said the new boards were known to be for PowerMacs (vs PowerBooks). YotLaptop!

Edit: meaning we may very well be seeing 970 laptops soon...
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post #28 of 123
6/9/03 at 8:04am
So, it might be easier for you to get a low speed chip for an iMac, than a LOW POWER chip for a PowerBook! I think we can agree that there will not be a 970 iMac before a 970 PB, and if it's too costly to get a low power 970, then you'll get a fast G4 (.13u) PB for at least the next 6-12 months.

Just another reason why 970 will nly be in the Powermacs for at least a couple of quarters. Maybe, they'll get into the 17" PB, that sucker costs a lot already, people in the market for it will pay.
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post #29 of 123
6/9/03 at 10:48am
Holy crap can you imagine 970s in a 12" PB!? Talk about chestnuts roasting on an open fire...! I don't want to be impotent Apple! I already have to sit awkwardly with the 12" PB. 8)
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post #30 of 123
6/9/03 at 12:00pm
  • Escher
  • Sub-PowerBook Lobbyist
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Holy crap can you imagine 970s in a 12" PB!? Talk about chestnuts roasting on an open fire...! I don't want to be impotent Apple! I already have to sit awkwardly with the 12" PB. 8)

I have a much rosier vision of the PPC 970 in a 12-inch PowerBook. Apple can always reduce processor speed when running on battery (e.g. when on your lap), like they do with current G4 chips. I'd be perfectly happy to buy a 1.2Ghz PPC 970 12-inch PowerBook that clocked as low as 600Mhz when on battery. On top of that, I imagine that IBM is working on power-saving features similar to what Intel implemented in the Pentium M, e.g. variable voltage.

I've been saying that I'll buy a Rev.B 12-inch PowerBook when they are released regardless of processor. I'm obviously hoping Rev.B will bring us the 970. More realistically, we'll probably only get faster (and possibly smaller process) G4's. In that case, I'm starting to think that I could live with my iBook a little longer, and wait for a 970-powered 12-inch. Time, and released products, will tell what I end up doing.

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
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post #31 of 123
6/9/03 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Escher
I have a much rosier vision of the PPC 970 in a 12-inch PowerBook. Apple can always reduce processor speed when running on battery (e.g. when on your lap), like they do with current G4 chips. I'd be perfectly happy to buy a 1.2Ghz PPC 970 12-inch PowerBook that clocked as low as 600Mhz when on battery.

Uh, plugged-in != not in lap.

I use my 12" PB on the sofa all the time - plugged in. Having it plugged in will not reduce the heat coming down on the jewels. 'course, I have enough kids as it is, so no harm done, but summer is coming and I don't need the extra heater.
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post #32 of 123
6/9/03 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by johnsonwax
Uh, plugged-in != not in lap.

I use my 12" PB on the sofa all the time - plugged in. Having it plugged in will not reduce the heat coming down on the jewels. 'course, I have enough kids as it is, so no harm done, but summer is coming and I don't need the extra heater.

You'll have to just "think coooool" (as in "Stand and Deliver" starring Edward James Olmos)

Jo
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post #33 of 123
6/9/03 at 2:25pm
They could turn the energy saver panel into "Genital Saver"
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post #34 of 123
6/9/03 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by grueni
You'll have to just "think coooool" (as in "Stand and Deliver" starring Edward James Olmos)

Awesome first post!
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post #35 of 123
6/9/03 at 3:21pm
wait... maybe Alcimedes knows something...

could the 970 laptop be codenamed Trogdor?

Burninate the lap!
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post #36 of 123
6/11/03 at 9:01am
Hot lap?
I have a Wallstreet PB - I know hot lap.

http://www.roadtools.com

$29.95

Best $50 my husband and I ever spent ( you can get two Podium Pads for around $50 - - we LOVE THEM!)
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post #37 of 123
6/11/03 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally posted by Escher
I have a much rosier vision of the PPC 970 in a 12-inch PowerBook.

The Aluminum should glow in a nice pinkish hue from the heat.....
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post #38 of 123
6/11/03 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by BobtheTomato
The Aluminum should glow in a nice pinkish hue from the heat.....

I suppose also so would your nuts...

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post #39 of 123
6/11/03 at 10:08am
IBM is saying that the embedded version of the PowerPC has power management.
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post #40 of 123
6/11/03 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by msnotesgod
Hot lap?
I have a Wallstreet PB - I know hot lap.

http://www.roadtools.com

$29.95

Best $50 my husband and I ever spent ( you can get two Podium Pads for around $50 - - we LOVE THEM!)

Yup, they are darn nice tools; and it (the Pad) helps out if your PowerBook's your primary machine (as it is for me; it's just easier while I'm in college -- I laugh at the people lugging up all their computing gear; mine's in my bag!!!), as it brings it up to a non-neck-arching level.
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