New PPC 970 Laptops - Page 2

Really? I looked through there and couldn't find anything like that? Can you be more specific?

Look here. They also mention SIMD acceleration.

I forgot to bring into attention this news. It is for PC laptops but it makes the need for progress in the performance sector of powerbooks even more imperative.

From the article: "The chip will appear most often in consumer-oriented notebooks that weigh more than 7 pounds". Well, that rules out PowerBooks, doesn't it?

The Pentium 4M is a crippled, GHz-sells CPU anyway. As the article notes, the real performance monster "desknotes" use the desktop P4, and as long as it holds a real performance advantage over the 4M I don't see that changing.

The Pentium M (part of Centrino) is more of a threat IMO.

Yeah, you will need some serious muscle to handle it

Future Directions, 64-bit Multi-Gigahertz Embedded PowerPC's
by Jim Rogers, Senior Engineer PowerPC Products

Driven by ever increasing requirements for additional networked bandwidth combined with the ability to handle new and even more complex software and services the PowerPC® architecture is changing. To meet these challenges, and provide the best price/performance solution, a variety of enhancements to the Embedded PowerPC architecture are being implemented and include an extension into 64 bit computing, highly scalable Multi-Gigahertz frequency capability, advanced power management, instruction level parallelism, thread level parallelism and SIMD acceleration. In this session, these enhancements to the PowerPC® architecture will be reviewed, highlighting the improved capabilities of PowerPC technology and the benefits to embedded solutions.

That's too bad that Apple doesn't make a notebook that is over 7lbs, nor do i see a small chip changing that.

As much as I would like to see a 970 powerbook next week, it is not going to happen. First of all, I think that Apple will wait for the first die shrink of the 970 so that power consumption levels are better. Secondly, it seems to be too close to the unveiling of the 17 inch Al book to come out with a whole new motherboards. I think that having 970 powerbooks by Christmas is a reasonable guess.

I've read this over and over and can't figure out if it means these are in the current 970 or will be included in future versions.

As to whether or not Steve will announce 970 based PBs 6/23, at this point I'm kind of numb and will just wait and see (but I hope it happens).

That's all we know at the moment. It looks to me that this reference points to future generations, i.e. 980 or whatever else they call it. I believe that 6/23 will not bring 970 to powerbooks, although I would like to be surprised.

By the time the 15 incher ships in volume (Late July? Hi, Apple...) then 970s will probably be out or imminent. What could have delayed the 15 incher from joining the 12 and 17 inchers? About 7 months over their original release at San Fran'. If was a case of an Aluminium shell and a 1 gig G4 processor then surely Apple would have had them out there already.

7 months to wind down Ti inventory?
7 months to tool up a 1 gig G4/Aluminium model?
7 months waiting for an Ati Mobility card when the 17 incher's graphic card would have done?
7 months to refine the production process that plagued the 12 and 17 Powerbooks?

Seems to me more like...

970s ahead of schedule and a that meant a shuffling of Apple's cards.

Hence, delay the 15 incher and re-tool and wait until sufficient 970s are in inventory to assemble said beast.

I think a 1 gig G4 Ti book is going to be very underwhelming for the 'Year of the Laptop'. More like 7 months TOO LATE! Speculation is rife that 970s are upon us. It would make more sense to delay the 15 inch 'Al' book until the 970 is in sufficient volume to do so. The 12 and 17 inch models will sell in the meantime. If they don't...that tells you alot about what Apple users are waiting for.

A 1 gig G4 15incher is ludicrous at this moment in time. On with the 970 already. They've waited this long...wait a few more months and ship in the Fall fer cryin' out loud. I think we'll get 970 laptops.

Lemon Bon Bon

I think you'll be crying into your tea.

w

I don't think so.

Laptops aren't really my bag. It's irrelevant to me, personally. I wouldn't want a 1.2 970 when I could get a dual 1.8 Tower.

At this sort of time frame I maintain my belief that by now, based upon what we know about a 'low power' 970 and a ramped up production of 970s about now(?)...is there any real reason why we can't see a 'G5' Powerbook other than 'convential' wisdom that doesn't hold up?

A 1 gig G4 Powerbook...but in a an AL casing (yawn). Okay. Maybe an Apple thing to do (look at all the iMac and eMac updates. Hardly electric.) but I'd have thought that at some point this Summer Apple's 'power' line is on the verge of transition to all 970 line of cpus.

It doesn't make sense to me to be any other way.

A 1 gig G4 Al book is nothing 'new' in my eyes.

Can you think of any reason for a 7 month delay? They made too many of those Superdrive Ti Books?

Some Mac heads who like their 'power'Books may not worry about the growing disparity of cpus apple/wintel. They may buy now and not jump out the window when a Powerbook 970 is release now/in Fall/early 04. But we do 'know' they're coming... It's just a place yer bets. Many rumour sites are going to lose their shirt...or not. Heroes and zeroes.

With 3 gig Pentium 4 cpu laptops just released...you'd have to wonder why Apple doesn't have a more compelling performance answer...

Lemon Bon Bon

I find myself wavering back and forth on this lately. And I came to this particular thread to ask a question, BUT I see that it got mentioned a few posts above: if Apple released just an expected 1-1.2GHz 15" aluminum PowerBook this month (or even July) to take us through the remainder of 2003 (and even into the first quarter, give or take, of 2004), WHEN they decided to put a 970 in it, would that require any sort of redesign?

In other words, would they take all this time (7 months, as mentioned by Lemon) to release what most would consider a fairly pedestrian, "THIS is what we waited for all these months?" update to the 15" PowerBook.

I don't know. Hell, the 12" and 17" models are coming up on their 6-month mark. I spoke to this in my "are our expectations too low" thread, but it kinda fits in nicely with this: we'd never expect a complete, jaw-dropping "razzle dazzle" announcement or unveiling ONLY because, during the past 4 years or so, we really haven't HAD one. We've had some minor gaspers and cheer inducers (Titanium PowerBook, G4 Cube, AirPort, Music Store, etc.), but we just take our measly 100MHz bumps twice (maybe even once) a year and consider that "cool" and hype-worthy.

Maybe we're about to get an attitude adjustment?



I wish.

I asked this in another thread and didn't really get much of an answer: is there any reason, physically or engineering-wise that these new chips COULDN'T be put into the PowerBook? Does a 970 chip (or board or whatever the hell it all comes with/on) fit into a current G4-based product?

I know nothing about this sort of stuff, so I ask. Physically, would all this stuff occupy the same amount of space as the G4 and its components?

Lemon is right on one front, hands down: this whole "year of the portable" business has meant, so far, a 12" and 17" PowerBook at the first of the year. A 100MHz bump to the iBooks and a price drop. And a price drop on the 12" and 15" PowerBook.

Surely that can't be all that constitutes "year of the portable"?



And, as stated above, will anyone really give two shits about waiting all this time for a new 15" aluminum PowerBook if it simply sports the expected 1-1.2GHz G4? Especially if we KNOW what's coming? I mean, would people buy this in any numbers?

Some, sure. But true powerheads and those "in the know" would probably make due for another 6 or so months...and Apple could go another half-a-year with hardware not up to full snuff.

I would REALLY love for them to just drop the 970 into everything they could. Marketing, product grids, expectations and past practices and product tiering be damned!

Just start making the hardware as kickass and amazing as your OS and software! Jeez...

I wonder just how many 17" PowerBooks have actually been sold. I know tons of foot-longs have been purchased. But in regards to dropping a 970 in the whole PowerBook line, I think Apple would do it in a heartbeat if they had the CPUs on hand to facilitate it.

Screw people that complain; computers CHANGE! Stop moaning every time something better comes around and you're stuck with a lower product. Do you expect the company you bought your last car from to refund your money towards the new model? No. So I just wish people'd stop accusing Apple of ripping them off if a better proc were to appear in the PowerBooks sooner than later, especially owners of sought-after LapZillas.

My rant is over.

I find myself waivering on this too. Not sure how to interpret it either.

WE've had this Ti for a long time now. And there really isn't much room to do a whole lot to it without also doing the same thing to the 17.

So, mebbe, in the interest of having one "classic" OS9x bootable pro-laptop Apple just kept the Ti around rather than debut a 15.4Al of essentially the same spec. The 12 and 17 are more like to "additions" to the PB line, rather than updates. I would imagine that it could be perfectly acceptable to put an Al style case (with the snazzy keyboard), totally revamped I/O, better battery tech, and a slight bump 1-1.33/1.4 depending on .13u G4's, and really that would make a pretty decent update, netting a cooler faster CPU with better battery life and better I/O and case design. I wouldn't even call it a redesign, just a matter of fitting a 17" Mobo into the 15" case and dropping in the 7457 (which is designed to drop into the 7455 slot)

In that sense, Apple saves a little design work, they could have well planned the 15.4 and 17 this way. We're really only talking a 1.6" difference in dimensions. If they knew from the outset, both machines could have been designed around a common motherboard.

Then there's this 970 that we hear so much about, and just mebbe it's possible to get some mobile grade CPU's out of IBM straight off the bat. NOT cheap though as some would imply -- it seems you just can't take a CPU and down clock it for mobile duty. You have to take the best of the bunch and own clock them beause they have to be able to switch at lower voltages than a slow desktop grade part. So, initially, it may be possible, but two questions arise.

1.)
Will there be enough to satiate (what I imagine will be a voracious) first quarter demand for PM's AND also a PB ??? These would have to be the very best off the fab, numbers may not be as high as we would like at first, even if the fab has been going for abit now.

2.)
How much would this mobile beast cost? It mightn't be possible to do at 1999-2599. Not for an initial roll out of a pick of the litter, 64 bit, laptop grade part. But at the 3299 price that a 17" demands that's another 700-1200USD to play with and certainly within the realm of possibility.

I would look for a G4 based 15.4" Al. Don't think of it as a minor update, Apple will sell it as, "all the goodness of the 17 at a new affordable price!" Then, the 17" inherits a 970 because its premium price can more easily absorb the new chip/motherboard costs, and sell it as "the first, 64bit, 17", widescreen, workstation, you're gonna so want one!"

Would it really be so bad to have

1-1.33(or more) Ghz .13u G4's in the 12 and 15Al and a 970 in the 17" ???

If the 970 shows up in a PB anytime soon, then the above is the most likely scenario.

I have a strange feeling they are going to do something across the board with everything when they do... 'this'
such as new ibooks with g4's new 15inch powerbook and new powermac. I bet they'll have both a g4 powerbook and a 970 variant. Possibly only in the 15 and 17inch? maybe only in the 17.

Based on the information available, it's hard to say. I'd say that the low-voltage 970s could go into at least the 15" and 17" without too much work. The CPUs in there now aren't exactly frugal.


No. The 970 means a new motherboard. The case, GPU and drives can be recycled, and possibly the RAM (if Apple wants a bottleneck there, or if the heat profile or battery life require one).


The 970 is physically larger than the G4, and it requires a companion chip, where the G4 doesn't. There isn't a whole lot of space on the 15" 's current motherboard. On the other hand, Apple engineers are a clever bunch, and they've proven to be quite good at stuffing machines into unlikely spaces.


Historically speaking, the iMac follows the PowerBook pretty closely, and the PowerBook is not so far from the PowerMac - the engineering issues are basically the same, and from a "product tiering" perspective equating a pro laptop to a high-end consumer desktop is about right anyway. The exceptions as far as the PowerBook and iMac go were major redesigns (the first TiBook and the LCD iMac). The iMac was introduced as "this year's technology," back in the halcyon days of 1998. Even if Apple doesn't come roaring out of the starting gate with 970s everywhere, I maintain that there will be a fairly optimistic timetable for the iMac getting the 970 - if not, it will truly have fallen into a lower tier than it has generally occupied (the one exception being the stagnation while Apple tried to come up with the next generation machine).

I'd expect one no later than next MWSF, and that's being fairly pessimistic. The 7457 will be well suited to iBook / eMac duty, and if we see it anywhere in Apple's lineup it'll be there (and it'll be in the eMac only if Apple gets really aggressive about pushing it into the low end).

Hey, I'd buy the 12" PowerBook TOMORROW (G4 included) IF it had DVI, L3 cache, more than 640MB max RAM and other PowerBook-esque features (FireWire 800 and lit keyboard are sweet icing on the cake). Doesn't HAVE to be a 970, but I just want to know SOMETHING so I can attempt to plan/save halfway smart!

Right now I'm bouncing between 12" iBook, Rev. B 12" PowerBook (maybe), definitely aluminum 15" PowerBook (but maybe not because I'd rather sink that much money into the next-gen chip), etc. Do I just get an affordable iBook to take me through 2003? Get a 12" PowerBook and have a snazzy 12" G4 to last me well into 2004. Continue as is and just keep saving for a 15" 970 PowerBook (MWSF 2004?).

Basically, I'm in a sweet position that I'm going to be able to sock back some serious cash from now until December or so...enough to EASILY buy whatever the hell I wanted, come MWSF. Barring any jaw-dropping 970 PowerBook 15" unveilings in the next month or two, maybe I'll just do that? Hell, I'll have over $4000 come January...maybe I'll just treat myself to a 17" 970 PowerBook and paint flames on it.



I need a drink...

Hi,
I think the puzzle doesn't quite fit together.
Apple released the 12' and 17' pbs based on an completely new motherboard design with an aging processor. Why basically trow away the design 5 month later because you need to redesign it around a groundbreaking new processor?
Why not update the hotseller (15') along with the 12' and 17'?
I see a couple of scenarios for that to happen.

1. - Apple wants to keep around the 15' for the OS 9 crowd.
- Apple plans for the next revision of the 15' PowerBook to include all the features of the 12' and 17' plus an advanced G4.
- The 12' and 17' get a GPU bump and the drop in 7447.
Thus the design cost is leveraged.

2. - Apple wants to keep around the 15' for the OS 9 crowd
- IBM advances in the development of the 970 faster than anticipated. Power consumption and energy management features are sufficient for the pbs. Apple is really surprised and axes development on pbs based around the 7447 and starts developing a 970 based mb for pbs.

Given the strong indications that a new build train based on 10.2 for the 970 is in the works scenario 2 seems a lot more likely. The only real question is: "Can Apple come up with a pb motherboard that quickly?"
I tend to be affirmative because the pm seems to be ready.
I guess they learnt a lot in the design of that mb that progress on the pb mb can be achieved quickly.

Thus I think we will see 970 based pbs quickly. Of course the 15' will come first (as it is the perfect middle, with the broadest market appeal), but Apple can't afford to lose sales on the others. So shortly thereafter we will see the 12' and 17' updated to the 970.

In my opinion every G3/G4 product is doa once the 970 hits the scene.

If Apple is *really* after marketshare they will update the pm, pb, xserve and imac to the 970 and the rest to G3 + fast processor bus (Rapid IO, Hypertransport) + SMID or as well to the 970.
An oldstyle G4/G3 product will look insanely dumb next to a dual proc dual core 980 on a really fast bus in Q1/2004.

It would also financially make sense. I'm sure the 970 will be cheap. There are no yield problems, the processor comes in early. Using hypertransport allows for a common motherboard core design among every product thus decreasing cost.
I see hypertransport analogous to oop. You can mix and match components as long as they use the same protocols. This allows for enough product differentiation.
I hope Apple goes to a more products based differentiation than to a spects based.

OT:
Now that IE is no longer on the mac backed by an uncredible argument, Apple needs to act.

1. They strike a new deal with M$.
2. They bring Safari to Windows and start developing an alternative to M$ Office

bye

I think something in the product line right now points to revised PowerBooks at WWDC or sometime very soon--->the 900 MHz G3 iBooks. Yes, AltiVec in the G4 enables it to run generally faster than an equivalent G3, but the fact that something in the consumer product line eclipses the clock speed of two products (12/15-inch PBs) in the professional line is funny. Sure, it's only 33 MHz, but come---onnn!

I would love to believe we'd see low-power 1.2 GHz 970s ANNOUNCED at WWDC. Then that'd give Apple a chance to clear out G4 procs in the form of discounted PowerBooks, then eventually let either the Motorola 7457 or IBM AltiVec-enhanced G3 take over in the iBook line.

I fear that the 12 inch powerbook will never have a L3 cache. But it's possible to see a 7457 in it with 512 KB of on die L2 cache. Larger L2 cache should improve deeply a G4 without L3 cache.
A one ghz 7457 will be fine, and will not cost more than the current chip in it.

I doubt that he has DVI, for marketing and price reasons.

The Ram should be extended to more than 640 MB when the market will offer 1 GB RAM for this machine (and i am sure it will arrive in the next months)

The problem of Firewire 800, is that he did not replace the firewire 400. It took two connectors, it may be a problem of numbers of connector, more than a problem of prize.

Where is all this talk about G3+SIMD coming from? Yes, I know about the IBM roadmap, but people talk as if they're rolling out of Fishkill right now.

As far as I can tell, we won't be seeing major changes to either the IBM G3 or the Mot G4 for a good while yet. Evolutionary improvements like the '57, sure, but nothing dramatic. Unless I missed something?

mostly wishful thinking i guess...we see more and more programs coming out that state G4 minimum...the G3 is now what 5, maybe 6 years old and basically unchanged except speed...
i, personally, am wanting to get an iBook for my daughter, but i have a hard time getting a G3 machine...sure the kids still use an iMac DV and it does most things they do quite well, but to buy a brand new machine and worry about it not doing any better than the 4 year old iMac in their room is hard to justify...so i'm hoping for gobi with altivec by summers end...luckily i don't have to buy a portable for her, i just want to buy...
so apple, please help me spend money i could just keep in the bank...apple you can help improve the economy if you would go 970 in PM and PB quickly while going G4 or gobi/mojave in the iBook....give the iMac the 1.4 G4 chips till the 970 is ramped up and then move the iMac to 970 too and suddenly all is good at apple again (at least for a month or two)...

g

Yes, it's a given at WWDC (or thereabouts) but next year, not this year.

While I think you're almost certainly right about this, it still makes for a rather meek "Year of the PowerBook", especially comparing to what's available on the Wintel side.

I don't agree. I've shopped for Wintel laptops, then they fall into two categories: tiny and underpowered or huge, heavy, powerful, but with dismal battery life. The mix of features you get from Apple's PowerBooks is really quite excellent, especially considering the form factor, weight, and battery life.

Okay moki...

I think a 970 based Powermac is a given at WWDC.

Well, I still love my TiBook 800 (even though it's stopped having any analog sound output a few months ago, and it's crashed several times today from overheating (I guess) while playing Dungeon Siege). But: some of those Pentium M boxes do look quite nice, at least on paper, and I don't even want to know how Dreamweaver MX would run on a 1.6GHz XP Pentium M notebook -- the equivalent of 2.6+ GHz P4-M I read.

Well if you missed something, then I must have missed it too.

Mohave is on IBM's roadmap, but doesn't yet exist. The 7457 is on Motorola's roadmap, but near as I have seen doesn't exist yet either, at least not in a usable form.

I haven't looked into this personally at all (since I have no intention of buying a Wintel laptop), but does anyone think that the "Centrino" processor makes much of a difference in the situation?

My personal take on the laptop issue goes like this:

Apple has know about the 970 for a long time, and has been working on all of the infrastructure required to support it. This includes hardware ( motherboards, chipsets, cases ) and software ( Panther ).

Apple anticipated the release of the 970 in saleable volumes from IBM around August-September ( launch timeframe of Panther ).

They saw some time ago that laptops were the strength in the product line, and decided to expand their offerings to grab more sales ( professionals might upgrade to laptop, even if they didnt want a new powermac ). In this process they had two product lines in development, the G4 machines, and the 970 machines. When they launched the 12" and the 17", they held onto the old Ti for two reasons, they still had a lot in the channel, and they wanted support for OS 9 until Quark XPress was released.

I predict that the 970 machines are designed around the same case as the G4 machines ( at least for the new 15" and the 17", not sure if the 12" will get 970'ed ).

When Apple release the 15" 970, it will not eclipse the 17", because it will go to 970 as well. I believe that they will use the same main board. It will literally be a drop in replacement for the 17".

For those of you who say that the 17 hasnt been out long enough for an upgrade, I say that Apple has had their hands tied for years by Moto, and given the chance to speed up, they arent going to blow by making sure they get a good return on their investment in the 17 and 15 G4 hardware design. They have been gifted with an opportunity to launch the 970 at least a quarter early, in time for back to school purchases. They are going to grab with both hands, by launching as much product as is ready.

That means PowerMacs and PowerBooks.

Paraphrasing Wooderson: "it'd be a lot cooler if you were right".



Here's hoping. Yeah, after years of Motorola seeping out piss-ant 100MHz once or so a year, I hope Apple realizes they don't have to follow that particular upgrade model any longer.

Perhaps a die-shrink is in order before we'll see it in PBs?

quote:


The Centrino processor does make a difference for now. However, I see it more as a way for Intel to compete with AMD rather than IBM and the PowerPC.

Thus far, Intel is easily winning the battle with AMD. The Centrino in laptops will keep PCs on 32 bit operating systems for a very long time, making it difficult for AMD to promote the benefits of its Opteron/Athlon64 chips.

AMD is especially in a bad position as Intel will the Centrino processor to club any manufacturer who attempts to use the Opteron/Athlon64.

Manufacturers like Dell would be at a serious disadvantage in the laptop market if they manufacture Athlon based hardware and lose Intel's preferred pricing.

For now, the Centrino chip is a potent competitor to G3 and G4 based laptops. However, Intel will have no answer to the mobile PPC 970.

A 970 powered laptop is coming, it is just a matter of when.

This is just speculation on my part, but it would seem technically possible for Apple to introduce a new line of 970 powered laptops with the desktop machines. However, I'm sure they don't want to revisit the 500 MHz G4 debacle with the original PowerMacs.

I am fairly certain that IBM wants all of Apple's chip business and would like to see the entire line of Macintosh computers on the 970 chip. As aggressive as IBM has been, it would seem that Apple would be migrating the entire line over to the 970 in fairly short order. Unless, of course, Motorola can give Apple a fairly compelling reason to continue using the G4.

I am not sure that there will be much of a compelling reason. Just as the G3 made the 604 obsolete, the 970 will do the same to the G4. And it is not like Apple hasn't had their entire product offerings based on a single line of chips before. As I recall, the original iMacs, the PowerBooks, and the PowerMacs were all based on the G3 at one time.

the centrino is nothing... its marketing trying to sell things by saying its something new, when its really just a few old things bundled together.

Its not doing as well as intel had hoped

I agree with this aggressive view, but with a twist. The 12", 15" and 17" will all be upgraded to 970s at the same time in September (actually right after the back to school buying season, I'll explain in a minute.)

Here's my reasoning:

The 1.2 GHz 970 draws 19 Watts, less than the current G4.

An "underclocked" 1.0 970 can be put in the 12" to make it "low end".

So, Apple could go all 970 in the Powerbook line this month along with the Power Macs, but they won't. Why?

Every Mac user with a vowel in his name is waiting for a G5 chip. Most of them will buy one no matter what kind of box it comes in. If the only way to get a 970 processor is by buying a Power Mac, then that's what he'll do, even if he's not traditionally a Power Mac customer.

Wait three months to let the G5 tower feeding frenzy die down (a little), continue to sell the current Powerbook line through the back to school season (with some further price cuts and/or rebate deals if necessary), and then and only then, release all new, all G5 laptops with Panther pre-installed.

Yes, that means the current TiBook will be almost a year old and the Albooks nine months old when the update appears, but Apple's going to be so busy raking in dough selling new Power Macs all summer that it won't matter much.

All 970, all at once in September is an excellent Powerbook plan that protects initial G5 Power Mac sales while still making this the "year of the laptop."

I can live with that! Gives me 3 extra months to save

I'd actually prefer that scenario because, if announced and shipping next week, I'm still going to be a bit short on what it would take to get one.

Although, if they came out next week, I can spend 3 months letting everyone else be guinea pigs and keeping my ears and eyes open regarding any "issues" in these new PowerBooks.