or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › New PPC 970 Laptops
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

New PPC 970 Laptops - Page 3

post #81 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by doh123
the centrino is nothing... its marketing trying to sell things by saying its something new, when its really just a few old things bundled together.

Really?
Good to hear, 'cause thats not at all what I've been reading lately, which is that the Pentium M and its chipset have been heavily optimized for mobile use by its Israeli developers (not Intel), and that it runs XP at the approx. double the speed compared MHz by MHz to a P4-M. The rest of Centrino is more or less just marketing, I agree.
However, memory throughput certainly is a lot better on these boxes (marketing or no marketing) than anything Motorola has to offer so far: the reason I won't buy another G4-based PB and will wait however long it takes for a 970 to appear in a PB.
I just hope Moki is wrong for once
post #82 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
I agree with this aggressive view, but with a twist. The 12", 15" and 17" will all be upgraded to 970s at the same time in September (actually right after the back to school buying season, I'll explain in a minute.)

[snip]

All 970, all at once in September is an excellent Powerbook plan that protects initial G5 Power Mac sales while still making this the "year of the laptop."

I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one. Deal?
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Carpe Aqua -- Snapz Pro X 2.0.2 for OS X..... Your digital recording device -- WireTap Pro 1.1.0 for OS X
Reply
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Carpe Aqua -- Snapz Pro X 2.0.2 for OS X..... Your digital recording device -- WireTap Pro 1.1.0 for OS X
Reply
post #83 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one. Deal?

Sure, can I get 17 to 12 odds though? (If I win, you buy me a 17" and if you win, I'll buy you a 12")

Seriously, I'm really bummed that you're throwing cold water on my Powerbook projections. What is the alternative Moki? Is the 7457 real? Will we see 1.2 GHz+ G4s with a faster bus in the next Powerbook rev? If we're not getting 970s, what are we getting?
Attention Internet Users!

"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
Reply
Attention Internet Users!

"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
Reply
post #84 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one. Deal?

I have to agree with this guy.

--Alexis
post #85 of 123
Maybe moki is playing a powerbook-name game of words here. His bet about a "PowerBook 970" not appearing this year sounds plausible; but that still leaves room for the almighty "PowerBook G5"*


I also hope moki is wrong this time around. My TiBook is seriously calling for retirement in 6 months or less. And if the towers get the 970 this year, I won't settle for less than ├╝ber-970 performance for my TiBook replacement. I may be asking for too much, but I don't think a G4+ or whatever will cut it after we witness IBM's 970 and Panther.


* 970
post #86 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one. Deal?

Just like the Power Mac 970 wasn't going to appear before late 2003/early 2004, eh?

Says I while watching the whole AI forum back away from moki

Barto
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
post #87 of 123
I don't think moki knows anything the rest of us Average Joes don't. If he does, why does he waste his time on these boards?
post #88 of 123
Moki knew about the 970 months before 98% of us (myself included).

Barto
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
post #89 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by haunebu
I don't think moki knows anything the rest of us Average Joes don't. If he does, why does he waste his time on these boards?

why do you waste your precious time on these boards? because you hate it? moki is a developer he needs to know and to anticipate on future developments. although he might know more than you and me, speculation is a creative process and he uses it for his work.
and it is fun to dwell around here
alles sal reg kom
Reply
alles sal reg kom
Reply
post #90 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one. Deal?

moki,

Isn't it remarkable that nobody reads the actual messages, too busy preparing their own speil I suppose.

Michael
Sintoo, agora non podo falar.
Reply
Sintoo, agora non podo falar.
Reply
post #91 of 123
hehe... I only just noticed... I thought the grammer was a little odd...
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
Self Indulgent Experiments keep me occupied.

rotate zmze pe vizspygmsr minus four
Reply
post #92 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by philby
Really?
Good to hear, 'cause thats not at all what I've been reading lately, which is that the Pentium M and its chipset have been heavily optimized for mobile use by its Israeli developers (not Intel), and that it runs XP at the approx. double the speed compared MHz by MHz to a P4-M.

The Israeli developers work for Intel. Intel has a development center in Israel, and developing there is not different than developing at some plant.

Heavy optimization fro mobile use means low power consumption, nothing else. While it is true that MHz for MHz the P4-M is faster than regular P4, it is not anywhere near "double".

The Centerino chipset is good, make no mistake about it. But it is in no way revolutionary. It just improves certain aspects of the P4 to make it better suited for mobility.
post #93 of 123
If moki is right, sales of one of apple's cashcows will drop significantly. People who buy mobile gear will not magically switch to a 970 desktop system.
I don't believe Apple is willing to see sales of the pbs to drop significantly.
Where is the upgrade to the pbs? 7447 seem nowhere to be seen and currently pbs already have the "fastest" G4 in them. There is no upgrade based around a G4.
Moki, what do you expect as upgrades?
If there is no 970 upgrade ready, why didn't Apple upgrade the pbs before? WWDC is focused on the 970 and Panther, an upgraded G4 pb would only distract people.
Or don't you even expect an upgrade?
post #94 of 123
so now i have read the actual posts i come to the conclusion that we will have to see a powerbook 970 this year (september?) and the rest of the productline in 2004 (mwsf?)

well
at least...
i think i read the actual posts correctly
including moki's post.
alles sal reg kom
Reply
alles sal reg kom
Reply
post #95 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by gar

i think i read the actual posts correctly
including moki's post.


I'm not sure you did read it correctly. The important part in bold.
Moki said:
Quote:
I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one.

This tells me that Powerbook 970s, or G5s, or whatever you want to call them are in the works, but major architecture changes for Apple laptops don't grow on trees. This fits in nicely with another quote from him about about hypertransport not working with G4s. I.e. all machines from Apple will be using the 970 at some point...just not this September. Perhaps we'll see a redesign of the case (exactly what's expected for the towers) when the chip debuts in all the PBs. If they're gonna put a 970 in PBs, then it'll go into all of them at the same time.
post #96 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by synp
While it is true that MHz for MHz the P4-M is faster than regular P4,

Not to be picky, but you certainly meant to say "MHz for MHz the PM (Pentium Mobile) is faster than regular P4-M (Pentium 4 Mobile)"? The P4-M is just a slightly less power-hungry version of Intels P4. The Pentium M(obile) @ 1.6 GHz has about half the Power usage, and is faster than, a P4-M @ 2.4 GHz.
Both are considerably faster than any current G4 PowerBook in computing-intensive tasks, such as 3-D rendering or video encoding, and even using the same GPU the 3-D performance of a PowerBook does not even come close to a Pentium-M based Wintel box.
Battery times (from what I've read) are now approximately the same for Centrino (i.e. Pentium-M) and G4-based laptops. Actually, they might even be better with Wintel boxes: I keep seeing 4 to 5 hours running times in tests (something my TiBook 800 has never been able to achieve), so Apple has lost a big advantage here; an IBM ThinkPad T40 weighs in @ 2.5 kg (about the same as a 15" PB), and runs 6 hours (!) on battery. Luckily it is extremely expensive...

I really hope (but do not believe) that Moki will lose his bet -- especially since it's a win-win situation: he gets a 970 PowerBook, and so do we
post #97 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
I'm willing to bet you a PowerBook 970 that they don't appear this year. If I win, you buy me one. If I lose, you buy me one. Deal?

I just noticed the "heads I win, tails you lose" thing. I'm an idiot.
Attention Internet Users!

"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
Reply
Attention Internet Users!

"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
Reply
post #98 of 123
You know something? If these new PowerBooks DON'T have the 970 (just a 1-1.2GHz G4 in the new "aluminized" 15-inch model and a rev. B 12-inch with a 1GHz G4 and one or some of the following: DVI, L3 cache, FireWire 800), there's really no reason they couldn't be unveiled this week, is there?

Say, on Tuesday? Apple has been loading up the Tuesday releases the past couple of months. If WWDC is all about Panther and merely TALK of the 970 and such, it wouldn't hurt anything to go ahead and release less-than-hoped-for G4 PowerBooks this week, right?

No sense doing it at WWDC, where people will be all hopped up and TOTALLY expecting a 970 PowerBook.



Hmmm...makes me wonder. Not out of the realm of possibility. Of course, if that's the case, then we know we won't see a 970 PowerBook until MWSF 2004 at the EARLIEST. So everyone, myself included, will have to decide some stuff: wait it out for 6 months? Get a nice new G4 1-1.2GHz aluminum 15" at the recently (and hopefully STILL) reduced prices? Say "screw it" and get an iBook and just revisit a 970 PowerBook sometime in mid-2004?



If indeed that's what happens (new PowerBooks are G4 instead of 970), here's what I'll probably do:

- get Rev. B 12" combo drive PowerBook (should be 1GHz and MAYBE 1MB L3 cache?) so I can "get mobile" right away (by mid-late July). That'll take me well into 2004 because my needs aren't extravagant. But, overall, I realize I'd probably enjoy 6-9 months on a G4-based laptop than a G3-based one.

- Give my Dad my iMac (so I've still got access to a SuperDrive if I need it AND I get to rack up another switcher...not looking forward to doing the eBay thing or dealing with strangers anyway).

- Starting in August, I simply continue with my plan of socking back $400-500/month

- Go into 2004 with a mighty chunk of saved cash ($3000, give or take, by January) and just continue doing so until the PowerBook goes to 970 (which, by then, will probably be a 1.4 or 1.6GHz model).

- I'll have the money to buy this 15" (maybe 17"?) 970 PowerBook outright.

- We'll have an AppleInsider raffle for my 12" PowerBook

post #99 of 123
I don't think it will happen just because they probably need more time to work on packing that stuff into a tigher package and keep it cool enough. That and they probably want the desktops to hoard the chip supply for the time being, not taking risks with supply in one channel/product.
post #100 of 123
Yeah. I was pretty firm on it being so (and, of course, would STILL love it to be true). But in the interest of a) living in reality and b) not setting myself up for dashed hopes, I'm not going to be crushed if the next 12" and 15" PowerBooks simply had nice 1GHz-plus G4s in them.

I can live with that. Certainly for 6-9 months, until the line does go to the new stuff.

I win either way, really.

The worst part? Another 6-9 months at 1024x768, I guess. Not the end of the world, but I can't wait to stretch out a bit and open every palette I have...just because I can.

post #101 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
I just noticed the "heads I win, tails you lose" thing. I'm an idiot.

You're not an idiot if you are a real Ensign, USN.

--Alexis
post #102 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by haunebu
I don't think moki knows anything the rest of us Average Joes don't. If he does, why does he waste his time on these boards?

::shrug:: believe what you will. I'm happy to let history be the judge...
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Carpe Aqua -- Snapz Pro X 2.0.2 for OS X..... Your digital recording device -- WireTap Pro 1.1.0 for OS X
Reply
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Carpe Aqua -- Snapz Pro X 2.0.2 for OS X..... Your digital recording device -- WireTap Pro 1.1.0 for OS X
Reply
post #103 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
We'll have an AppleInsider raffle for my 12" PowerBook

Sign me up, pscates!

Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
The worst part? Another 6-9 months at 1024x768, I guess.

IMO, you should get a larger external monitor, regardless of whether your first laptop is a 15-inch PowerBook G5 or "only" a Rev.B 12-inch PowerBook G4. If the 12-inch PowerBook got DVI-out, you could even get an Apple (Cinema) Display.

BTW: If I had to choose between either PPC 970 OR DVI-out on the Rev.B 12-inch PowerBook, I'm not sure what my choice would be. Realistically, I would probably pick the 970 for longevity, even though I badly want to hook my future 12-inch PowerBook to an Apple LCD without a $300 adapter.

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
Reply
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
Reply
post #104 of 123
Maybe we'll get both? If not next week, then surely someday? Rev. C, perhaps? Just seems like a no-brainer, really: smallest laptop Apple makes kinda SCREAMS for a way to hook it up to * gasp * Apple's own gorgeous displays, doesn't it?



Macworld themselves even say so, and dinged the 12" PowerBook on that very thing in their otherwise enthusiastic review of it.

Believe me...I've been screaming for DVI on the 12" for a while now! To be completely honest, my ideal laptop would simply be this: a 12" PowerBook with the same features as the 15" and 17" models (I'll even give up the light up keyboard, okay? But everything else - DVI, L3 cache, FireWire 800 - should be there).

If I truly felt the 12" wasn't "crippled" (and every bit the PowerBook that its two older brothers were), I'd not even consider the 15" at all. I'd MUCH rather have something small, light and, dare I say, "cute", but with all the "oomph" of the other two.

Perfect laptop, IMO.

I'd just keep buying 12" PowerBooks every 18 or so months, keeping up with the latest speeds, fastest optical drives, snazziest graphics, roomiest hard drives, etc.

post #105 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexis
You're not an idiot if you are a real Ensign, USN.

--Alexis

Um, I'm not. It's a movie reference.
Attention Internet Users!

"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
Reply
Attention Internet Users!

"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
Reply
post #106 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
Yes, it's a given at WWDC (or thereabouts) but next year, not this year.

Thank you. Exactly as I predicted, from 12-18 months AFTER 970 PM intros, assuming we see PM's soon.
IBL!
Reply
IBL!
Reply
post #107 of 123
Well, As the Apple Turns seems to think that we will get new PowerBooks very soon, and that they will be worth the wait. On Friday, June 13, Jack wrote:

Quote:
So, yeah, new 15ish-inch PowerBooks are pretty much a dead cert at this point, although there's a teensy little catch: DigiTimes reports that Compal will start shipping Apple's new 15.4-inch PowerBooks "in the second half of this year." That's a pretty vague timeframe, if you think about it-- it sounds like something the cable company tells you when you ask when the repair guy will be there-- but if taken literally, it implies that the earliest anyone's going to get their hot little hands on one is a week after the Stevenote. Not that July 1st is all that far away, or anything, but if you were hoping to snap up an aluminum 15-incher at an Apple retail store scant minutes after Steve's June 23rd extravaganza, you may have to wait just a little longer than that. We recommend biting down on your wallet to avoid swallowing your own tongue until the convulsions pass.

Trust us, the wait for a 15.4-inch model will be worth it; as you all know, sometimes an extra fifth of an inch makes all the difference. And no, we don't mean that dirty. Sheesh.

Here's to new PowerBooks at WWDC, even if they're not based on PPC 970 processors.

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
Reply
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
Reply
post #108 of 123
yes, but even AI rumor states:

"New PowerBooks too?" one asks. "Ah yeah, they are bringing the 15" model up to design spec with the other two models...faster chips in all of them,"


i see that as meaning the 15" gets a G4 and specs equal to 12 and 17" model...faster chips means that they get faster g4 chips i would guess

so all PB models get speed bump, and are now firewire 800, etc etc

17- 1.25 G4 (maybe 1.4 if lucky)
15- 1.25 G4
12-1.0 G4


the g4 is a very good chip of mobile use...the g3 is a good chip...the 970 well may be an excellent chip, but we won't know how it works for the mobile market till dec or jan

g

ps...i had to sneak this information out of 1 infinite loop by smuggling it out hidden in my ass...rather painful yes, especially as i had to sit through an eight hour meeting and had 4 cups of coffee running through my system...but well worth the trouble for the fame and glory
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
Reply
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
Reply
post #109 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by gar
so now i have read the actual posts i come to the conclusion that we will have to see a powerbook 970 this year (september?) and the rest of the productline in 2004 (mwsf?).

Hey, do you want to double our little bet?
B&W G3/350 22" La Cie II, 12" PowerBook, 67 Mustang, 96 Honda Pan European
Reply
B&W G3/350 22" La Cie II, 12" PowerBook, 67 Mustang, 96 Honda Pan European
Reply
post #110 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Clive
Hey, do you want to double our little bet?

no...
i was just guessing what moki exactly ment. i thought i came up with a clever conclusion. and you know what? not so
after reading some other threads and comments, i think i have to fear for my 10 euro's. but you never know so we keep it that way.
we started it, iirc, with my delerious expectations of ibooks G4 and a powerbook 970 before 2004 and your more realistic approach of this issue. right?
alles sal reg kom
Reply
alles sal reg kom
Reply
post #111 of 123
Just a thought - Motorola has been talking about the 7457 for quite some time now, and it seems to be out or close to being out. So if there are G4 bumps in the PowerBooks, they very well could be 7457s. That would be sweet - for all the bitching about Motorola we do here, that 7457 is really a pretty nice chip, at .13 with a 512 L2 cache, it should provide a more than linear performance boost with an increase in battery power and decrease in heat.
post #112 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Just a thought - Motorola has been talking about the 7457 for quite some time now, and it seems to be out or close to being out. So if there are G4 bumps in the PowerBooks, they very well could be 7457s. That would be sweet - for all the bitching about Motorola we do here, that 7457 is really a pretty nice chip, at .13 with a 512 L2 cache, it should provide a more than linear performance boost with an increase in battery power and decrease in heat.

I would say that this is a MUCH more reasonable prediction for what will be in the forthcoming powerbooks. No matter how much I would like to see a 970 in a 15 Al book (hello, I would switch from Windows), it just isn't going to happen. I would see the Christmas season as the earliest Apple could get them out (and to accomplish this, they would have to motivate their engineers by threatening to throw them into a furnace). Realistically, it just isn't going to happen this year. Faster G4's though? Now that will happen this year. If only the G4's had a real bus

Sigh, Apple when you come out with a 15 inch 970 Powerbook, I will buy it, a top of the line iPod, and out of gratefulness to his Majesty Jobs, I will probably buy a digital camera from your stores. Thanks for making hardware and software that just works, even if it is a year or two late.
King Felix
Reply
King Felix
Reply
post #113 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Just a thought - Motorola has been talking about the 7457 for quite some time now, and it seems to be out or close to being out. So if there are G4 bumps in the PowerBooks, they very well could be 7457s. That would be sweet - for all the bitching about Motorola we do here, that 7457 is really a pretty nice chip, at .13 with a 512 L2 cache, it should provide a more than linear performance boost with an increase in battery power and decrease in heat.

It's possible if Mot have learned to ship chip in time. \
post #114 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
That would be sweet - for all the bitching about Motorola we do here, that 7457 is really a pretty nice chip, at .13 with a 512 L2 cache, it should provide a more than linear performance boost with an increase in battery power and decrease in heat.

Yup, I would gladly buy a new PowerBook with a 7457 in it; partly because if the 7457 DOES appear in a PowerBook, we'll know Apple is sticking with the G4 a while longer. Part of me thinks this has been Apple's plan; isn't the 7457 pin-compatible with the 7455? It just plugs into the existing motherboards.

I asked but don't think I ever got an answer: am I right that the 7457 supports a 200MHz bus? That alone would be worth something. I think I recall reading that it does NOT support DDR-RAM; that has to wait for the still-MIA 7457-RM.
post #115 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
Yup, I would gladly buy a new PowerBook with a 7457 in it; partly because if the 7457 DOES appear in a PowerBook, we'll know Apple is sticking with the G4 a while longer. Part of me thinks this has been Apple's plan; isn't the 7457 pin-compatible with the 7455? It just plugs into the existing motherboards.

I asked but don't think I ever got an answer: am I right that the 7457 supports a 200MHz bus? That alone would be worth something. I think I recall reading that it does NOT support DDR-RAM; that has to wait for the still-MIA 7457-RM.

The correct term that it will not benefit DDR ram, the current powerbook 17 inch have some in it. A 200 mhz bus, will be an improvement compared to the 166 mhz, but DDR ram 400 are quite expansive.

The 7457 is not on the way unfortunately, Mot has cancelled it.
post #116 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
I asked but don't think I ever got an answer: am I right that the 7457 supports a 200MHz bus? That alone would be worth something. I think I recall reading that it does NOT support DDR-RAM; that has to wait for the still-MIA 7457-RM.

167Mhz and 200Mhz bus and the 7457RM was cancelled by moto last time i saw it mentioned. btw moto's semiconductor devision is for sale. who's buying?

and i want the subject of this topic with a 15" screen not something propelled by a G4. but, sadly enough, that probally has to wait.
alles sal reg kom
Reply
alles sal reg kom
Reply
post #117 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by gar
167Mhz and 200Mhz bus. and the 7457RM was cancelled by moto last time i saw it mentioned.

I know there was a rumor to that effect, that the RM was cancelled, but was it confirmed? I think the original rumor was on Macbidoulle and said it was dropped because the 970 was going into PowerBooks and Apple didn't need the RM chip.
post #118 of 123
Im feeling like the PowerBooks will indeed get the 970's, where the 17" will get a DP 970!.
The 12's and 15's will remain SP.

As far as I know the 7457 have been announced by Moto as in production. This will allow the G4 to scale higher for the iMacs/eMacs and is likely to dissapate power low enough for the iBooks.

This ensures the 'G5's' are for the PRO range and the G4's remain with the consumer products.

Just my 2 cents worth!
post #119 of 123
Why I think that a PPC 970 Laptop is possible now.

This is my first post, so please be kind - what the heck, I have a thick hide anyway!

First, the caveats.

There are lots of things that I don't know, amongst them being that;

(1) The 970 or equivalent is available in the necessary numbers.
(2) The 970 supports fully (or close to it) the HyperTransport spec.
(3) Power dissapation of the 970 at full rated clock speed is acceptable under ideal operating conditions!
(4) Cost of the 970 is acceptable.

Now the reasoning.

I think the solution to this particular question lays not with the processor (vitally important but not the issue) but with the system used to connect all the parts together - HyperTransport. Here's why.

First, a look at the capability designed into the HyperTransport specification. HyperTransport is;

(5) Scalable in clock speed.
(6) Scalable in bus width.
(7) Scalable in voltage.
(8) Designed to connect just about everything on the motherboard.
(9) Blindingly fast.
(10) Distributed.
(11) Just beautiful to an engineer. (OK, I added that to the spec!)

Now, to consider where each of these fill the picture out a little.

(5) CMOS as a technology is simply more power consuming the faster you clock it. Clock it more slowly and it uses less power. Stacks of published examples of this in literature. CMOS is good in another way too, in that you can run it to just about zero hertz and it is still predictable. A lower HyperTransport clock rate implies lower clock rates in the supporting silicon (or germanium if some rumours are to be believed regarding possible processor implementations are to be believed).
(6) Run a wide bus between big data generators and big data users, a narrow bus to less demanding peripherals (such as USB ). The former category would include the CPU(s), the GPU and RAM amongst others. HyperTransport by the way is essentially a point to point specification but a particular device can have any number of the implementated at a given time.
(7) Run communications over the HyperTransport link at lower voltages when possible, at higher voltages when necessary. There is no reason why distinct HyperTransport connected units cannot operate at differing voltages.
(8) Because HyperTransport scales so well, even minor components can take advantage of it. Examples might be an ambient light sensor/illumination controller unit, battery condition monitor/charge controller etc. These types of device would not be bandwidth huggers but are necessary. However, consider major components such as PCI and PCI-X. Quoting the HyperTransport Applications Overview White Paper, December 2002;

Since the Hypertransport protocol encompasses the PCI enumeration and configuration protocols, existing operating systems need no modifications to take advantage of the greater bandwidth and integration made possible by Hypertransport technology.

Just simply bridge HyperTransport to PCI (in silicon) and make all your regular calls. So, components of all scales of implementation are covered, or just about.
(9) Does the 12.8 Gigabytes/second aggregate bandwidth back the speed argument up?
(10) The HyperTransport consortium talk about a HyperTransport Fabric. This is comprised of one or more daisy chains of HyperTransport technology devices with a bridge to a host controller system at one end. You can almost picture the main board as a substrate for this wonderful new fabric.
(11) Yes, I'll say it again, HyperTransport looks beautiful to someone who admittedly, hasn't yet designed with it!

So, why is HyperTransport the key?

Well, I think that HyperTransport is the key to the ubiquitous (sorry to those who hate that word) power management. The PPC 970 implements many power saving strategies. (I read that on IBM's site.) such feature is only useful if you can implement it and HyperTransport provides that opportunity. Perhaps a look at some senarios might be illuminating.

Here I am, sitting at my desk which is a firm flat surface by a draughty doorway. My PowerBook G5 (yeah baby ) is running flat out driving my 20" LCD (which at least is something I actually do have). I know that the case is running hottish underneath but I don't care because the computer is well within spec. I am feeling a bit tired but can't let go of the new acquisition, so I take it up to bed. (Yes I am married - 22 years, four kids so don't worry, if she were going to divorce me I think I've already provided plenty of excuses!) I sit up in bed with the thing (sorry - masterpiece) on my lap. Now I know it runs warm but I still don't care because I know that the computer will handle it. Sure enough, up comes the expected message.

Dear IQatEdo, I am adjusting operating parameters to maintain proper operation as cooling efficiency has been reduced reduced. Please note that the following adjustments have been implemented.
? Processor clock speed has been reduced 10%.
? Display colour depth has been reduced to thousands, allowing one bank of video RAM to be turned off.
? Bus speed has been lowered 10%.
? One bank of main memory has been reallocated to standby mode.
? Display intensity has been reduced 10%.
? Keyboard illumination is unaltered as I know you get really cranky if you cannot see the keys.
Please note that these changes will also prolong battery operation by half an hour.

I think the upshot of all this is that as long as power consumption is acceptable under ideal conditions, a combination of smart programming, comprehensive processor power management and a system of interconnects - HyperTransport - that allows power managment to be implemented comprehensively will manage those less than ideal circumstances.

Finally, HyperTransport is meant to be a simplifying technology in the design process and seeing how clever Apple's engineers are, I feel that they have quickly taken advantage of it. There should be reduced board real estate resulting from its adoption also.

All the best!
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
Reply
Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
Reply
post #120 of 123
Product matrix be damned, isn't it possible for Apple to create a third, super-high-end G5 Powerbook? This allows for both the 970 in a portable format and the gradual transition of the iBooks and Powerbooks to G4s and 970 respectively.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Future Apple Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › New PPC 970 Laptops