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eWeek article on Smeagol and Q37

post #1 of 402
Thread Starter 
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1121740,00.asp

Quote:
Apple Computer Inc. is nearing the release of desktop systems featuring IBM's 64-bit PowerPC 970 chip, sources report?but a 64-bit version of Mac OS X may lag behind by a month or two.

Sources said that the IBM chip will make its first appearance in a new Power Mac known internally as Q37. However, sources said, Q37 won't ship with a 64-bit version of Mac OS X, limiting OS performance gains in the initial release. Instead, Q37 will launch with a special build train of the current Mac OS X Version 10.2, a k a Jaguar.

This build, code-named Smeagol, will run on the new chip but won't take advantage of many of its key features, including 64-bit support. Sources said Apple's goal for Smeagol is to deliver Mac OS X performance at least "on par" with what Jaguar could achieve on Motorola G4 chips running at the same speed; the move will allow Apple to ship the new hardware before Mac OS X 10.3, a k a Panther, can take advantage of all the new processor's capabilities.

Not very promising, at least the part about the PPC 970's OS X performance being on par with the G4. I had thought that a 970 was estimated to be about twice as fast as a similarly clocked G4. Could lack of 64 bit optimizations (and whatever other optimizations are needed) cut the 970's performance in half? Doesn't seem likely. If this article is true, then the 970 won't be the stellar leap in performance we've been anticipating, rather it will be no more than the performance from a 1.8 GHz G4 if Moto could scale it that high. A nice boost to be sure, but nothing that will put Apple in direct competition with Wintels.
post #2 of 402
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...0&pagenumber=4

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...933#post374933
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #3 of 402
Thread Starter 
I didn't catch those posts. Anyways, this needs it's own thread, since it's a new rumor of considerable validity. Maybe you could add something constructive besides posting links to other references to the article?
post #4 of 402
sigh... Q37? have the engineering boys lost all flair for naming these rigs anymore?

sorry. petty comment on my part.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #5 of 402
I like it. its so "the answer is was so right in front of you the whole time"
post #6 of 402
As the 'alleged' time of the 970 approaches, so does my previous happy anticipation...

I just bought a 867 PB 12", which I am impressed with, but only because I expected 'nothing' in advance with the 970 around the corner and all...

Rather than revising my estimates of the 'Uber' Mac upwards, I'm just hoping Apple doesn't feck this up... On a par with a G4? The bad publicity could sink the ship before it sails!!

Rather than release a disasterously 'crippled' machine (In PR terms), wait a further 2 months. We have waited 2 years already, so what does it matter?

Vorsprung durch Technik ? Hmmm. I guess time will tell

Peace,

Marc

Note to self: Repeat at least 1000 times a day: Apple will not mess this up, Apple willl not m....
post #7 of 402
& why cant we access this thread anymore on the same subject?

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=25673

"There's no bigot like a religious bigot and there's no religion more fanatical than that espoused by Macintosh zealots." ~Martin Veitch, IT Week [31-01-2003]
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"There's no bigot like a religious bigot and there's no religion more fanatical than that espoused by Macintosh zealots." ~Martin Veitch, IT Week [31-01-2003]
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post #8 of 402
as others have pointed too,

ibm production != moto production
post #9 of 402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
& why cant we access this thread anymore on the same subject?

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=25673


Listen, I'd rather go to ONE PLACE to get in on discussion about this development. I don't feel like jumping around several different threads trying to follow discussion on this article.

Mainly, I'd like to know why it's predicting such poor performance for the 970, relative to all the other rumors. There's probably some fellows here at AI who could shed some light on this issue...and it'd be nice to see them all discussing the reasons in ONE place.
post #10 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Listen, I'd rather go to ONE PLACE to get in on discussion about this development. I don't feel like jumping around several different threads trying to follow discussion on this article.

Cool it - he was asking why the thread about Smeagol from yesterday was gone - it was deleted earlier today.


Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Mainly, I'd like to know why it's predicting such poor performance for the 970, relative to all the other rumors. There's probably some fellows here at AI who could shed some light on this issue...and it'd be nice to see them all discussing the reasons in ONE place.

A lot of light have been shed in the two threads I linked to
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #11 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
I didn't catch those posts. Anyways, this needs it's own thread, since it's a new rumor of considerable validity. Maybe you could add something constructive besides posting links to other references to the article?

It doesn't need its own thread.
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post #12 of 402
i think its kinda funny all the time we waste on arguing a threads validity. It doesn't bother me i just think its kinda funny to read. I shouldn't complain, it's so much better here in general that most forums.
post #13 of 402
quote
"This build, code-named Smeagol, will run on the new chip but won't take advantage of many of its key features, including 64-bit support. Sources said Apple's goal for Smeagol is to deliver Mac OS X performance at least "on par" with what Jaguar could achieve on Motorola G4 chips running at the same speed; the move will allow Apple to ship the new hardware before Mac OS X 10.3, a k a Panther, can take advantage of all the new processor's capabilities."



perhaps apple is learning from ibm and is "sandbagging" it..notice "at least"...perhaps it is twice as fast, three times as fast, only just as fast...i don't know, the writers don't know...everyone will know in 2 weeks

by all indications the 970 will be a great chip, but more importantly, everything around it will be better too...pipeline, rapidio or hyperactive child drive etc


g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #14 of 402
upside: more independent sources may mean the info is closer to accuracy

downside: maybe he just reads /. and from there AI and rehashes rumours

any regular readers of his column care to comment on his rumour record?

convergence of message != accuracy,
but it cuts down on some of the rampant speculation
perhaps to become the apocryphal "market expectations"

1.4-1.8 GHz 970s in the first run seem the status quo prediction now.
IBM has talked about Blade Servers up to 2.5 GHz (maybe Q1'04).

Apple engineering/OS folks have talked Quads since NeXT guys joined, if not before.

Some of the more 'experienced' folks in some of the other threads have noted the benefits of a shift towards new backplane/fabric/mobo/fsb concepts as being as critical as the 970 CPU shift itself. some of these upgrades, combined with full 10.3 support for 64-bitness throughout will prepare the bandwidth for more substantial multi-processing.
AI's own front page is naming a "HyperTransport-based solution" for up to 12.8Gb of bandwidth

might not see a Quad 970 Xstation (or whatever) til 04, but it'll be doable for the first time since the Daystar.

there was some discussion of the ApplePi Bus here last year... IIRC, the PDFs that it referenced were pulled. perhaps somebody archved the threads and links and can cross-reference what we knew then with what eWeek is reporting
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #15 of 402
Will the keynote be broadcast to the public? To Developers? or not at all?
post #16 of 402
he's very good. curious.
post #17 of 402
<neo>

whoa.

</neo>


post #18 of 402
?
post #19 of 402
it will be interesting to see is apple has eWeek pull the article


g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #20 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by thegelding
it will be interesting to see is apple has eWeek pull the article


g

On what gounds?

I really don't think they can in this instance...
post #21 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by thegelding
it will be interesting to see is apple has eWeek pull the article.

Never happen. If eWeek received such a request, they would run it as a confirmation of their story and tell Steve to take a hike. Apple only bullies small-time sites.
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post #22 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Never happen. If eWeek received such a request, they would run it as a confirmation of their story and tell Steve to take a hike. Apple only bullies small-time sites.

Why the ?

I don't know if Apple actually bully anyone... They just enforce their rights. Be it forcefully on occasion.

If a site has for example, illegally obtained pictures of an unreleased product and publish them, Apple could lose money. Fair play, make the site take the pics down...

If a site is publishing 'rumor', Apple knows damn well, there is nothing they can do if the sources aren't revealed, and the info is suitably vague as to not cause any damage...
post #23 of 402
One has to think this information is inaccurate. I'm not Programmer, but I think it's safe to say it's strange that the 970 can't handle G4 binaries well. The 970 is still a PPC, and it should be able to execute PPC code well. Yet, if eWeek is right, and the speed of the machines are so seriously hobbled by the lack of unoptimized code, then Apple wouldn't be wise to release it's new flagships in that crippled state. The introduction of the 970s represents a special opportunity to recapture some mindshare that has been lost by the anemic G4. The introduction has to go well, or else it will set a negative tone for the machines that will definitely effect sales.

I truly hope Apple has learned its lesson from the flawed iMac G4 introduction. Demand for the iMac was red hot in the retail sector for the first three weeks after Macworld, but there was no supply to be found anywhere. Stores were left in a lurch with no product to sell, and many stores even lacked basic promotional materials. Then, about a month after Macworld, Apple bumped up the price by $100, and magically supply started flooding the market. It was a bit eerie that we couldn't get supply to save our lives the day prior to the price bump, but afterward we had twenty boxes in inventory. (It was almost as if Apple was purposely constricting the flow of iMacs to a trickle, purposely sabotaging the introduction.) Of course the glut in supply came too late, because those customers that were turned away weeks earlier failed to return.

The introductory phase of a product launch is key. If Apple ships the 970 crippled by older PPC binaries, the product will be tainted. Likewise, if Apple fails to ship enough machines, interest in the line will wane. I have to have faith in apple's intelligent engineers and managers -- I cannot believe they would lack the foresight to ensure the 970 performed well with current binaries.
PPC4EVER
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post #24 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Marcus
Why the ?

I don't know if Apple actually bully anyone... They just enforce their rights. Be it forcefully on occasion.

If a site has for example, illegally obtained pictures of an unreleased product and publish them, Apple could lose money. Fair play, make the site take the pics down...

If a site is publishing 'rumor', Apple knows damn well, there is nothing they can do if the sources aren't revealed, and the info is suitably vague as to not cause any damage...

There are no pics in the AI article, just "rumors" as you say, yet Apple (allegedly) threatened legal action. Besides, the real problem is the double standard. eWeek is a "real" site, with a "real" legal department, so Apple leaves them alone.
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It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
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"it's" contraction of "it is"
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It's shameful how grammar on the Internet is losing its accuracy.
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post #25 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
There are no pics in the AI article, just "rumors" as you say, yet Apple (allegedly) threatened legal action. Besides, the real problem is the double standard. eWeek is a "real" site, with a "real" legal department, so Apple leaves them alone.

I think the key is, that they (allegedly) threatened... nothing more. Without seeking to be confrontational, I can't believe they even did that... (Any more info Jonathan to confirm this either way?)

As a lawyer, I can testify that, if Apple are going to sue you (or send a C&D), the 'fedayeen Steve' will maul you relentlessly for however long it takes, and however much it costs. They will then, if you are lucky, scatter your remains to the 4 winds to be pecked by the vultures of despair...

Unless you have 4 Billion laying about to spend on lawyers, they will get you in the end. However if you have posted an 'unsubstantiated rumor', no matter how accurate, you have nothing to worry about, and Apple know it... They may bluster, but nothing will come of it.

Peace,

Marc
post #26 of 402
IIRC, there are some legal "checklists" prior to action.

was an NDA in effect? was it broken?
are proprietary designs or patents exposed?
can harm (to reputation, image, market) be shown/charged/proven?
what sort of action will provide resolution?
yadda yadda

maybe one of the mods or admins can illuminate from past image restrictions and contact with Apple Legal's posse
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #27 of 402
Tell me, I am not American, if you recieve a C & D relating to an artical are you not allowed to say that you have removed such an artical becuase you have recieved a C & D?
Wll I have my G5 so I am off to get a life; apart from this post...
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Wll I have my G5 so I am off to get a life; apart from this post...
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post #28 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Addison
Tell me, I am not American, if you recieve a C & D relating to an artical are you not allowed to say that you have removed such an artical becuase you have recieved a C & D?

Usually there is no problem with saying there is a C&D in force... People have in the past posted the wording, and even scans of the letters.

Of course there have been occasions where the publishing of prohibited.

However, it is the easiest thing in the world to say you have taken the article down "At the request of Apple Legal" without this being the case... The iWalk was the prime example.

Spymc claimed they had received a letter from Apple, and as a result, had removed the offending material. >bam< instant rumor Kudos. They are still living of the back of it. However in reality, there was no letter, and as we all know, no iWalk...
post #29 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Mac
...but I think it's safe to say it's strange that the 970 can't handle G4 binaries well. The 970 is still a PPC, and it should be able to execute PPC code well...

It handles the "G4 binaries" just fine -- at least as well as the G4 does at the same clock rate. If the code is not memory or FPU bound, and is optimized for the 7450, then the G4 is probably doing a pretty good job of running it so why do you think the 970 can magically do something with it? The top-of-the-line 970 will have, on average, a 1.8/1.42 advantage over the current TOTL G4. That's pretty good, actually, since longer pipeline chips often lose a little clock-for-clock against shorter pipeline chips. Recompilation ought to improve things, but I'm expecting ~20% improvements (not a doubling). Keep in mind that this is in general. Specific cases will vary greatly from this average.

Any code using floating point or which is memory bound, however, should benefit significantly from the 970. This will include Quartz, OpenGL, QuickTime and various other important pieces of software. Fortunately these kinds of code are typically the ones where we care about how fast they run.

The 970 is not a miracle, stop expecting it to be. It is a huge step forward for the PowerPC (and therefore for Apple), but try to be a little realistic.
Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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post #30 of 402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Cool it - he was asking why the thread about Smeagol from yesterday was gone - it was deleted earlier today.

You cool it. If you care so much then go apply to become a moderator--you'll be able to shut down threads on a whim. For now, shut your piehole and quit trying to play moderator.
post #31 of 402
children, play nice

i think it should be proven in a math equation that:

(tempers shorten) = to (rumors increase) = to (approaching apple special event)

such that as an apple event approaches, rumors increase and thus tempers shorten...it is all so scientific


g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #32 of 402
post #33 of 402
Thread Starter 
So you mean that I can pump my schizophrenic cousin for information since I was the one who talked him into getting a job at Apple?

That was the entire point, to get him on the inside so I'd have a more reliable source. All I'd have to do is up his thorazine dose and he'll tell me anything! Last time I doubled his thorazine intake and he told me that his mom (my mom's sister) had a lesbian affair with her mother (my grandma) as a child. I couldn't figure out how he knew this until he told me that he had a sexual affair with his mother when HE was a child! Luckily my mom ran away from home in her teens to escape all the "wierdness", as she describes it.

But anyways, are you saying I could be prosecuted for leaking Apple's secrets because I'm the one who got my cos' set up and working at Apple? That sucks!
post #34 of 402
post #35 of 402
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by AirSluf
I think this is just pure marketing spin to avoid cannibalizing current sales. Most folks don't really have a clue on the 970's capabilities and potential performance, so poo-pooing it lightly and saying performance will be at least as good as current G4s avoids saying "We are going to need to dump our old inventory in the landfill because you wouldn't want to use it as a doorstop as it sucks compared to the new lineups performance". But it does say "We will progress in speed and more Apple software magic will help tremendously come September, so if you would like to buy now you won't be disappointed."

This would make sense, but is it Apple marketing that's putting out this info? As I understand it, the author is writing about leaked info from unnamed sources. That could be anyone....and if they're leaking info, why put a spin on it? Unless Apple is doing this intentionally to reallign expectations.

Could be. Dubya has taught us that it's always best to set low expectations, so even a mediocre performance will be met with overwhelming praise.
post #36 of 402
When did the image of Gollum appear at the top of this site? I noticed earlier today or yesterday. Did it get put up after the eWeek story?
post #37 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
When did the image of Gollum appear at the top of this site? I noticed earlier today or yesterday. Did it get put up after the eWeek story?

We started it.

Everyone else jumped on the bandwagon the day after I created and uploaded that image (which was Saturday).

And, yes, I can "confirm" the details of the eWeek article. Though, that article is also leaving out a few key parts to the puzzle.
post #38 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad
We started it.

Everyone else jumped on the bandwagon the day after I created and uploaded that image (which was Saturday).

And, yes, I can "confirm" the details of the eWeek article. Though, that article is also leaving out a few key parts to the puzzle.

... and you're waiting for what, exactly?
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #39 of 402
his sources to ok the next bit of info. the info could single out the sources is my guess.


GPU?
post #40 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
... and you're waiting for what, exactly?

We don't divulge every single detail we get. We have the safety and security of our sources to look out for. Remember workerbee? People fear smiting Apple especially when they're on the inside.

We respect the request of our sources when they ask us not to publish things immediately.
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