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eWeek article on Smeagol and Q37 - Page 5

post #161 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
How strange, HyperTransport isn't supported by the G4!

Of course there is no information about the 970 supporting HyperTransport either. Or is there something you want to share with us?

(Moki, you still haven't responded to my list of 8 items, above).
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post #162 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Of course there is no information about the 970 supporting HyperTransport either. Or is there something you want to share with us?

(Moki, you still haven't responded to my list of 8 items, above).

Nervous AMD reps holding him back.
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post #163 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Leonis
You are pushing people to one corner and then to another corner Mr. Moki

Actually I don't think he is. Let's apply a little logic. (Oh wait, this is a rumor form, I almost forgot).

Anyway I listed a total of 11 points or predictions. Moki took three of those and said I would "be disappointed".


Okay, then looking at those 3 points. I am guessing that Moki is implying that most likely my "time-table" for those 3 items at least, was a bit too ambitious.


So maybe this means that my other points in general may have some validity, but that things might not happen quite as quick as expected.


Hmm! So, WWDC may not be as much as the most optimistic expect because reality is moving a little slower then the rumor boards have indicated. Hmmm! Guess I might need to have a little more patience.

As far as dissapointment goes, it will only be because I can't afford the latest and greatest (whatever it might be) right away anyway. I figure the current top of the line is up to 3.5 times faster then what I have now (Power Mac 800 single), so anything better then that just sweetens the pot.

More importantly, it gives me more time to save up.
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post #164 of 402
Moki is the anti-kormac.
The Mother of all flip-flops!!
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post #165 of 402
I can think of one reason why Apple are building large quantities now for a release in, say, late August to September. They don't want to sacrifice margins to air freighting machines over the pacific.

Given that it takes 3(?) weeks to get stuff shipped from Taiwan to West Coast USA (inc inspections etc), and there will probably be a large initial demand for the product, they want to have the supply lines already cranking with a few containers arriving a week to feed the demand. To get any kinks out of the production process, the assemblers require time to fine tune their processes.

So Apple are giving them time to do their thing and time to ship instead of fly their product in to fill the initial avalanche of orders. Means we have to wait a little longer.
post #166 of 402
i alway thought that last minute ship deal ate up profits...

and these things are HEAVY unlike an Ipod
post #167 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Of course there is no information about the 970 supporting HyperTransport either. Or is there something you want to share with us?

(Moki, you still haven't responded to my list of 8 items, above).

Wouldn't that really be a huge kick in the nuts if Smeagol was an OS X release for Opteron and that the 970 would wait for Jaguar in September?
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post #168 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by 3.1416
Do we know this for certain? I haven't seen anything other than rumors that says that the 970 really is in production right now.

(snip)

I think I can safely say they are, and you're right ... you probably won't see anything but rumors for a little bit ... anyways ... FWIW
post #169 of 402
I'm laughin' my head off. You're such a tease. Talk about putting the 'squeeze' on.

Drip, drip...drip...

I c-can't take it anymore...RAHAHAHHAHHHHH....gibber...

moki and chinese torture.

The sign of a really 'neat' rumour site.

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #170 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by MacGregor
Moki is the anti-kormac.

"There's no bigot like a religious bigot and there's no religion more fanatical than that espoused by Macintosh zealots." ~Martin Veitch, IT Week [31-01-2003]
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post #171 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Leonis
You are pushing people to one corner and then to another corner Mr. Moki

Didnt I say he was an evil man?? -Seems like Moki has gotten an overdose of Steve's Reality Distortion Field..

Quote:
Originally posted by moki
How strange, HyperTransport isn't supported by the G4!

HmMmm... So if we expect you not to be sandbagging, do you say that we get an updated 2.0 Ghz G4 75xx now...?
WITH Hypertransport/PIE/Whatever?
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post #172 of 402
Do you think moki really does know, or just having a little fun with everyone?

I could imagine this sort of info is NDA'd tighter than a mermaid's brassiere and even giving "non-info" in the form of cryptic hints would amount to talking about it, which is what an NDA expressly forbids.

Of course, moki may have got some info through non NDA means - chatting to programmer mates perhaps - but talking about it would still raise the ire of Apple, and presumably it's in the el Presidente's interest to stay on their good side (you know, to have Snapz Pro bundled on the G5s which aren't going to be announced).

Whatever, I'm still waiting for the x86 Macs.
post #173 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by michaelb
Do you think moki really does know, or just having a little fun with everyone?

Well.. Maybe he's just saying what he expect... Not what he knows.. Afterall, he's also mortal and not one of Steve's personal fairy's.. Atleast not what we know of..
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post #174 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaktai
Anyway I listed a total of 11 points or predictions. Moki took three of those and said I would "be disappointed".


Okay, then looking at those 3 points. I am guessing that Moki is implying that most likely my "time-table" for those 3 items at least, was a bit too ambitious.


Your timetable has 970's shipping in July, which strikes me as optimistic (just like most of the rumour mill currently seems to be). I've been thinking Aug-Sept for a long time, and I think last year Moki was saying September. We've heard that the 970 is doing well so there's no reason to think that the original schedule has slipped... except that Moki told you that you were setting yourself up for "big disappointment". Now is "big" just because you're so wound up, or is it "big" because you're way off?

Moki, I must insist that you try to be a little more precise. If you're going to drop bread crumbs, at least try to do it in a non-ambiguous fashion!
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post #175 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
I think the odds of the 970 showing up at WWDC are 100%. There's no other way.

The question is whether [PPC 970 PowerMacs] are introduced formally, shipping within months or weeks or days, or whether they're snuck in as a "hypothetical" 64 bit platform at the Panther demo and perhaps shown off to a few high-powered developers in private.

Remember, the "sneaking in" described by Amorph is exactly what happened with the first Dual Processor PowerMacs. DP G4 systems were demo'ed "behind closed doors" at WWDC in May 2000. But DP G4 systems weren't officially announced until MWNY in July and didn't ship until August that year. It took 3 months from first demo to availability of DP G4 PowerMacs! History has a habit of repeating itself, even at Apple.

I know Apple is doing everything in its power to do better than that. That's also why they delayed WWDC 2003 by a month. But "only" a demo of the 970 at WWDC is still a distinct possibility.

Escher
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post #176 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Your timetable has 970's shipping in July, which strikes me as optimistic (just like most of the rumour mill currently seems to be). I've been thinking Aug-Sept for a long time, and I think last year Moki was saying September. We've heard that the 970 is doing well so there's no reason to think that the original schedule has slipped... except that Moki told you that you were setting yourself up for "big disappointment". Now is "big" just because you're so wound up, or is it "big" because you're way off?

Moki, I must insist that you try to be a little more precise. If you're going to drop bread crumbs, at least try to do it in a non-ambiguous fashion!

It seems that Moki like to play with us like a cat with mices.
post #177 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by michaelb
Do you think moki really does know, or just having a little fun with everyone?

I think that moki is Steve's personal ambassador to these boards. It seems like every time the there is a wave of pessimism Moki starts with the "wwdc is going to be quite a show!" stuff and now when there is optimism he is there to throw water on it. Of course it could just be that he is a little more level headed then the rest of us (Programmer maybe excepted).

I do find it a little suspecious that, with absolutely no leaks coming out of places where lots of people certainly have lots of information (e.g., IBM) moki feels free not only to give us these tidbits but to sign his real name to them.
post #178 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Your timetable has 970's shipping in July, which strikes me as optimistic (just like most of the rumour mill currently seems to be). I've been thinking Aug-Sept for a long time, and I think last year Moki was saying September. We've heard that the 970 is doing well so there's no reason to think that the original schedule has slipped... except that Moki told you that you were setting yourself up for "big disappointment". Now is "big" just because you're so wound up, or is it "big" because you're way off?

Moki, I must insist that you try to be a little more precise. If you're going to drop bread crumbs, at least try to do it in a non-ambiguous fashion!

Right September or Fall was the original release date. However, that was before smeagol. If smeagol is for the 970s, why release it if you don't plan to release the 970s until fall which is also when Panther is released? If smeagol and it's purpose is real, the the 970s being released early are as well.

Unless, of course, smeagol is only for developers to test and run 970s.
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post #179 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by JBL

I do find it a little suspecious that, with absolutely no leaks coming out of places where lots of people certainly have lots of information (e.g., IBM) moki feels free not only to give us these tidbits but to sign his real name to them.

If he reports what he hears second or third hand, and he doesn't violate any NDA's the he's signed (or, if he hasn't signed any NDA's in the first place) then he has nothing to fear from Apple.

If he's not careful, he could endanger one of his "sources" by revealing too much information too soon, but that doesn't seem to be a problem - certainly not if the reactions to his posts in this thread are any indication!
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post #180 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by KidRed
Right September or Fall was the original release date. However, that was before smeagol. If smeagol is for the 970s, why release it if you don't plan to release the 970s until fall which is also when Panther is released? If smeagol and it's purpose is real, the the 970s being released early are as well.

Unless, of course, smeagol is only for developers to test and run 970s.

Or, unless Panther's run into delays, and it won't appear until late fall or so.

Yikes! wasn't the first oh-crap-we-need-something-now project from Apple, and it won't be the last either.
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post #181 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
Or, unless Panther's run into delays, and it won't appear until late fall or so.

Yikes! wasn't the first oh-crap-we-need-something-now project from Apple, and it won't be the last either.

But hasn't Apple publicly stated a fall release for Panther? If not, I'm sure we'll get a formal release date or month at the WWDC. I don't think Apple would be late on Panther so I'm not sure the likelyhood of smeagol being a yikes! OS. Hope not anyway
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post #182 of 402
Quote:
But hasn't Apple publicly stated a fall release for Panther?

I don't remember this being stated and even if it were true, that means they have until December 21st (??) to release on time.

Like I said in a previous post. Everyone seems to think Panther will be released in Sept. Unless 970 powermacs are available in July, then Smeagol makes NO sense. If Panther isn't ready until Dec--which is likely since Devs are getting a "sneek peek" in late June--then Smeagol makes sense along with a PM 970 release "this summer".
post #183 of 402
Quote:
I don't remember this being stated and even if it were true, that means they have until December 21st (??) to release on time.

Like I said in a previous post. Everyone seems to think Panther will be released in Sept. Unless 970 powermacs are available in July, then Smeagol makes NO sense. If Panther isn't ready until Dec--which is likely since Devs are getting a "sneek peek" in late June--then Smeagol makes sense along with a PM 970 release "this summer".

I think that is a very logical solution. 'Cracked it'. I think you could be right. What's the point of 'Smeagol' in August if Panther is September? Might as well wait a little longer. Smeagol, as you've pointed out suggests that our 'Fall' interpretation could be out of whack. 'Fall' could mean bumped Towers around December. ie to Dual/Quad formations. Could mean a bump to 2.2 over the 1.8. So when Apple go dual they offer 2.2 in addition to 1.8 dual 970s. Hmmm. You've got me thinking that Panther is shaping up to be something more special than even Jaguar was. And they're going to need that extra time to finish it. We could be taking a hair before the Christmas shopping season. Nov-Dec? Yeah. Apple must be cooking up something special.

Re: Smeagol. Means we get most of the 32 bit CPU performance and bandwidth we could only dream off under the G4. Single 1.4 and 1.8 970s off the presses as IBM ramps up production. Say shipping August (ala Towers last year?) then that gives Apple two quarters of storming 970 sales. Which takes Apple up to late Fall. Panther and duals hit. On Panther...a new, more elegant software solution optimised to take advantage of the new, elegant 'hypertransport' parallel interconnect that allows multiple cpus to connect more efficiently and elegantly than in say, the current dual G4 towers. End result? Worth waiting for the duals! Be well worth it. But the single smeagol 970s? Well worth it performance right out the gate with a further boost as 970s go dual under dual enhancing Panther! I'm now pitching that as my interpretation of the conflicting eWeek, Moki, Macdoobie smoke signals. In a manner of speaking...they're all right?

Photoshop 7 (8 pending...) and Lightwave 7 should fly under a '32-bit' 970 running on '32 bit' Jag'/Smeagol. So celebrate.

Hmmm. I think alot of Mac users will take that. Quark 6 on 'Smeagol' 970s? That's going to be a good quarter. Sales for June quarter will be flat (said Apple) therefore it's got to be Smeagol 970s for WWDC, New York Macworld or Seybold at the latest. We're looking at anything from 4-8 weeks for actual shipping in that context? That would make Moki's 'hints' correct and corraborate eWeeks story. Yet...Moki said eWeek contained 'horsesmells'. That may have been the 'performance' penalty talk...not the delivery timetable.

Still, just to get a preview of a 970 and Panther at WWDC and another amazing Steve Jobs keynote would suffice for me. Those other 4-8 weeks will soon swing around for me. The best things in life are worth waiting for.

I want a dual 2.2 970 running 'Panther'. Personally, I think that will be worth waiting for. Compared to the last Mac I owned (my beloved Powermac 'Manhattan'...) it will seem like lightspeed.

So celebrate part 2!

Typical Steve Jobs double whammy. And who knows...a Renderman buyout by Apple along with a 64 bit Shake come the fall? 3D community cry foul and open their chequebooks and go Apple...heh...

Lemon Bon Bon

PS. So what we're having is not hardware 'Yikes' but software 'Yikes'. No? But with what could hardly be called a penalty. Given the massive speed gains envisaged, I'll take half(?) the performance of the single 970 now and double(?) improvement later as and when Panther ships.
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post #184 of 402
Well, are we certain that "Smeagol" even exists? What troubles me the most is that if Apple "demoes" the G5s, assuming they won't be shipping in the next 60-90 days, that alone will KILL any PowerMac sales--and there aren't many of those to begin with! I find it hard to believe word won't leak out on what's coming shortly.

If the G5s are just "demoed" or introduced, Apple better be ready to introduce and begin shipping them within 60 days or so.


I am beginning to suffer from RRDF(Remote RDF). I am -really- starting to like the G5 name....
post #185 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
And who knows...a Renderman buyout by Apple

Um, why? It would be cheaper if Steve Jobs just convinced Steve Jobs to make a Mac version.
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post #186 of 402
Why do I have the intense feeling that I'll be getting my $500 deposit back from the dealer in 10 days.

I don't think we're going to see 970-based machines available for another 5 or 6 months.

I'm mentally prepared to read the news of dual 1.58's.
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post #187 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by KidRed
But hasn't Apple publicly stated a fall release for Panther? If not, I'm sure we'll get a formal release date or month at the WWDC. I don't think Apple would be late on Panther so I'm not sure the likelyhood of smeagol being a yikes! OS. Hope not anyway

Fall starts September 22, IIRC.
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post #188 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Well, are we certain that "Smeagol" even exists?

Good point. Now this thread starts to push the release date to August/September, and this might mean that they ship with 10.3, and wont need this 10.2.7 build!

And then we have more time to dream up better hardware to put into those machines, so here's my bid:

GDDR-3

[Edit:] Fits with the bandwith... 6.4 Gbps.. Hint hint..
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post #189 of 402
Quote:
Fall starts September 22, IIRC.

And lasts through December 21st
post #190 of 402
MacOSRumors continues the negative trend regarding 970 release anytime soon. Though I'm sure "sources" are just various forums.
post #191 of 402
Moki, you're killing me here. Put up or shut up, man. This cryptic streak you've got going on is killing my dangerously optimistic pre-WWDC vibe.

I'm trying to temper my enthusiasm, but here are my specs based on UTTER AND COMPLETE SPECULATION AND HOPE:

- Single 1.4 and 1.8GHz PPC970-based PowerMacs; duals to come
- Shipping no later than 4 weeks past WWDC (since the announcement will torpedo G4 sales)
- Running Smeagol 10.2.7 until...
- Panther ships by Halloween at the latest
- PPC970-based 15" PowerBook G5 (yes, I'm being hopeful)

I'm also holding out hope for either the long-sought after cheap/headless Mac, or a lowering of the tower prices to $1,200 or less, but since this is Apple and not Dell, I'm not optimistic on this point.

And, I know it's off topic for this thread, but I'm at least as excited to see what Panther brings to the table now that OS X is mostly out of the "we're still adding features to match OS 9's set" stage. One of the rumor sites opined that Panther would begin to seriously differentiate the Mac OS once again from Windoze. I, for one, can't wait. I think that WWDC will be at least as exciting as any recent Macworld Expo!

PS - No ill will meant, Moki. I gots nothin' but love for ya, man! :-)
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post #192 of 402
This never ever happens to me, but earlier today I got dropped a very, very big hint from a reputable source about the new 15" Powerbook coming out at the WWDC...

They didn't say anything about details, and I didn't ask out of respect of the situation I was in, but the intimation was that it would bring 15" specs into line with the current Alu books. Nothing more specific was mentioned...

Hmmm.
post #193 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
If he reports what he hears second or third hand, and he doesn't violate any NDA's the he's signed (or, if he hasn't signed any NDA's in the first place) then he has nothing to fear from Apple.

Right. Nothing I even hint at is covered by any NDA I have with Apple; I take such things very seriously.

But really, WWDC is 10 days away -- why spoil it? Let the speculation continue unabated.

There will be some heavy things about at WWDC just don't expect to be able to carry 'em home.
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post #194 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by moki

There will be some heavy things about at WWDC just don't expect to be able to carry 'em home.


god, i love moki


if i had a particle accelarator and could put moki, programmer, peter o'toole and brad pitt inside it and just smash them all together into one brundlefly human...sigh, that just might make me question my sexual orientation...


g
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post #195 of 402
post #196 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
There will be some heavy things about at WWDC just don't expect to be able to carry 'em home.

Steve took on some weight?


No seriously folks.. Xstation? "Wolf"-cluster? Xgrid? -Since you didnt spoil any NDA saying that, you might as well drop a breadcrum more tomorrow..

I expect some kind of Powermac 'announcement' to be made, of one kind or another, its going to be big. Powermac going Power5 maybe..? BaahHH... Just dreaming..
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post #197 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by moki
But really, WWDC is 10 days away -- why spoil it? Let the speculation continue unabated.

So be it! Here is a (cough) revised list.
  • Power PC 970 previewed in some manner at WWDC, possibly in conjunction with Panther demos.
  • Availability? 1 or 2 single processor 970 based Macs in 30 to 60 days.
  • Dual processors to follow with the release of Panther, sometime in the fall.
  • Initial OS will be some kind of patched version of 10.2.x. Doesn't really matter what it is called.
  • Panther will include an improved compiler and other overall system enhancements plus 64 bit capability.
  • Performance? I won't attempt to detail all the possible scenarios. It will vary along with the task. Worst case scenario is maybe 1.25 times compared to a same megahertz G4. Best case Scenario is maybe 3 to 3.5 times for a combination of System bus, floating point and Altivec all working at optimum. Overall average maybe around 1.7 to 2.2 times for most daily operations.
  • Powerbook 970? I am still doubtful. Not for at least another 2-3 months.
  • X-Serve 970? Not till 2004
  • 970 for iMac, eMac, etc? Not till 2004 at earliest.
  • New Motorola G4 chips? Doubtful.
  • The day after WWDC keynote, the rumor boards will have a few disgruntled people complaining of how Apple held back and is doomed or complaining that they didn't come in at under $1000 or that they aren't available right away and aren't faster then a theoretical 10 ghz P4 that might someday exist.
How's that for "speculation" and no I won't be disappointed if some or all of it doesn't come true. Well actually, I don't think the last item is really speculation.
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post #198 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaktai
So be it! Here is a (cough) revised list.
  • Power PC 970 previewed in some manner at WWDC, possibly in conjunction with Panther demos.
  • Availability? 1 or 2 single processor 970 based Macs in 30 to 60 days.
  • Dual processors to follow with the release of Panther, sometime in the fall.
  • Initial OS will be some kind of patched version of 10.2.x. Doesn't really matter what it is called.
  • Panther will include an improved compiler and other overall system enhancements plus 64 bit capability.
  • Performance? I won't attempt to detail all the possible scenarios. It will vary along with the task. Worst case scenario is maybe 1.25 times compared to a same megahertz G4. Best case Scenario is maybe 3 to 3.5 times for a combination of System bus, floating point and Altivec all working at optimum. Overall average maybe around 1.7 to 2.2 times for most daily operations.
  • Powerbook 970? I am still doubtful. Not for at least another 2-3 months.
  • X-Serve 970? Not till 2004
  • 970 for iMac, eMac, etc? Not till 2004 at earliest.
  • New Motorola G4 chips? Doubtful.
  • The day after WWDC keynote, the rumor boards will have a few disgruntled people complaining of how Apple held back and is doomed or complaining that they didn't come in at under $1000 or that they aren't available right away and aren't faster then a theoretical 10 ghz P4 that might someday exist.
How's that for "speculation" and no I won't be disappointed if some or all of it doesn't come true. Well actually, I don't think the last item is really speculation.

Sounds pretty accurate to me!
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post #199 of 402
Some here seem to think Smeagol is a last minute hack to get Jaguar working on a 970 Mac. No way. IBM said a few minor changes were needed to run a 32 bit OS on the 970 way back at the Microprocessor Forum, so Apple knew what was coming. After that, Apple has been getting engineering chips and then production samples of the 970. Apple must have made these changes way back so they could test the early hardware prototypes.
post #200 of 402
I agree. It's not like Apple's gonna say "Oh, wow, this new chip just landed. I guess we better hack it into Jaguar!"

As far as timing is concerned, 970s running Jaguar should be available right away after WWDC. There's no way it'd take Apple until Panther's release to get the new Macs out the door - they've been ready for this for a loooong time.
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