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Yeah, but what about PRICES! (new dance pending) - Page 3

post #81 of 234
Apple is going to price these new desktops as high as possible and I'm glad.

They have been making meager profits, like $15 - $40 million for a long time. Remember, they took a $247 million dollar loss a while ago and it could happen again. It takes a lot of $14 millions to add up to $247 million. The PowerMac is their money maker and that's what they need to do. The iTunes Music Stores isn't going to be making huge profits.

This talk about keeping the price low for potential switchers is ridiculous. The number of switchers per quarter is too low for it matter. There has not really been much indication that lower prices sell more Macs. The eMac has never sold that well.

I think it's about time to give up on the idea of going out of the way to get switchers. Apple has tried everything from the iApps to the retail stores to the Switch campaign and the results have been almost unnoticeable. The future lies in making money from Windows users any way they can. Apple will look at the Power Macs as a way to get the profits it needs to design new products.
post #82 of 234
Don't expect the new powermac at a prize lower than the G4.

If Apple sell them at the same prize, it will be a good new. If they sell them for 200 $ more, it will be a bad new and they will be in trouble.
My bet is they will try to sell them for nearly the same prize. When a company like Apple is developping a new computer, they have a goal in term of prize. I doubt that Apple will be foolish to make a computer more expansive than the previous one. That's not the way the market evoluate. In other ways, it's not the interest of Apple to make cheaper towers, they don't want to have a drop in their margins nor want have a diminution of their income. Their bet is : same prize, same margin, but a lot more of computers selled.
post #83 of 234
Notice that this leaves the door open for a new Cube w/ '57 G4 @ $799-$899.
post #84 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by kcmac
by Matsu
"Two, if you get a 1299 PMac bottom end, who the fvck will by a 1499-1599 17" iMac? "

I would. A 17" screen, which I don't happen to own, would put me back another $700. Plus, I don't think we are going to see a 1299 pmac.

Plus, the iMac takes up less space which for me is another consideration. Plus, the iMac form factor is very ergonometric. Another consideration for me.

plus, the iMac is very, very quiet.
post #85 of 234
Um.

Those people demanding lower prices on these upcoming PowerMacs will be sorely disappointed. Don't get your hopes up for more price slashing -- I would bet that Apple will increase the price at least by $100 or $200.

Why?

1) Pent up demand. Simple economics. Quark XPress has arrived. The G4 is almost out the door. People will snap up these babies as fast as possible even if the price goes up a bunch, since they're an incredible value with all the extra goodies added on (PCI-X, optical audio in/out, G5 processor, fast system bus, fast hard drive, fast/lots of memory).

2) Apple's new towers will be incredible values at the existing prices of the current G4s. Apple's new towers will include EVERYTHING (if the listed specs are right) -- FireWire 400/800, USB, VGA output, DVI output, PCI-X, DDR RAM, Bluetooth support built-in, 802.11g support built-in, AGP 8X, and (finally) a fast processor. While Apple's current G4 tower lineup is a bit languishing, the new G5s will lack just about nothing on the cutting edge. While you could probably outprice a current G4 tower with a Wintel offerring, I doubt you could outprice the upcoming G5 towers even with a bit of an increase in price. There is just so much in these towers.

Looking at the leaked pic of specs, I really can't understand how someone could even say that the existing prices are too high to attract Wintel users.

3) Apple is a company. Companies need profit to stay alive. Apple makes squat off their software offerrings. Ergo, Apple makes money off hardware. With all the things that these new G5s seem to have, Apple really can't shave off much of the price and still keep a profit. Furthermore, they are a company with very little marketshare. Apple didn't get $4 billion in the bank by keeping razor-thin margins like Dell does, no way, no how.


The only valid argument about prices that I've seen so far is the argument of the entry-level tower. A stripped down tower with not so many awesome features offerred at or around $1100 would do Apple good. Historically, though, Apple doesn't offer these things, and I wouldn't get my hopes up.

(Oh, yeah, and I'll say it once and never again: APPLE WILL NOT BE OFFERRING ANY PRODUCTS WITH AN INTEL PROCESSOR ON THE INSIDE. It would be stupid to maintain two builds of the same operating system, especially since third-party software wouldn't necessarily translate over to Intel offerrings. Just get it out of your head... Apple will never ship a product with an Intel processor unless it is in very, very dire straits. And I don't think a tower with those kind of specs puts Apple in that bad of a position. *** sim points to the leaked spec pic.)
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post #86 of 234
Thread Starter 
By now lotsa pros have "switched" away from Applel. The PPC970, while a major boost over the G4, will not be such a great boost over x86, at least not in it's lower clocked, single CPU applications, by many acounts it will still be slightly slower when used in that way. The idea that they can jack up prices because of pent up demand will not carry more than 1 quarter. Over the last two years, any significant model that had too high an MSRP, had sales fall of dramatically two-three months after its debut. The original iMac FP, various revs of PB, the first MDD towers. These were all machines that offered good features or performance for their markets, but once Apple burned through rabid fans, their sales immediately fell off a cliff. Fans will be more rabid for a G5, but they are still a limited supply of people, and while sales might take a little longer than 2-3 mon ths to hit their traditional fall off, probably 4-6 months in this case, they will, and when they do, they will do so dramatically. It has happened so many times in the past -- one week sales are good, and two weeks later buyers want nothing to do with them.

I wouldn't say Apple has been "smart" about pricing, they've only recently started learning to price to a more appropriate level for the market.

There are a host of reasons why, even a G5 tower (entry level) is cheaper to make than an i/eMac, and why it needs to get cheaper than 1499.

Any lost e/iMac sales are more than made up for, by the fact that even at 1299 a G5 tower would carry a better margin than a customized enclosure machine with built in display and a miniturization penalty.

People want affordable towers, apple will provide them, or lose sales once the initial fervor dies down --- something that won't take too long.

If you'll notice, SimX, I've not said anywhere that Apple needs to sell a loaded DP G5 for 1299, I said a "stripped down tower," just put the G5 in there and the modern Mobo, the rest of the spec can be fairly minimal as concerns RAM, drives, and the GPU, and optical.

Better make an impact, NOW
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post #87 of 234
Quote:
It's simple really.

Steve is, in spite of his mercurialness, a remarkable pragmatist at business. After that crew came in, they hacked out everything that didn't contribute either short term or long term. From what was left, they divided the business into two areas. The stuff that could contribute to the long term health of Apple became price/feature competitive while the stuff that couldn't compete was used to suck consumers out of as much money as possible for the short term.

Laptops are cheap because feature-wise they are competitive. Apple can win this market and gain share. The desktops are expensive because they suck and Apple knows it - they just haven't been able to get the goods out of Mot to change things so they're going to extract every penny out of loyal Mac users that will pay anything to avoid Wintel.

The plan probably from either now or early next year on is that since Apple will be competitive on features, they will go after marketshare with everything they have - all $4B of it. The profits will come from secondary sales - software, accessories (iPod, monitors, new stuff... hmm), and services (iTMS, .mac) which command higher margins.

Apple may not have enough coming in from these markets right now to really slash margins, but be sure that the eventual plan is to be competitive on price and exceptional on features. Ironically, this might mean that prices of the new machines will be the same or *less* than the current ones.

The big clue about the strategy change on hardware was last Jan when the baseline prices started to get slashed. PMac prices now aren't awful, if you ignore the performance. Drop the current prices on the rumored machines and things look pretty good.

What this means, Matsu, is that you can probably put the price dance in hibernation. Apple will be after marketshare, not minimal profitability. Toward that goal, I expect more strategic acquisitions, and Apple will need to get sector penetration - an agreement with IBM where they start using Apple or IBM hardware and OS X in their installations and support would be a move in that direction.

And I will once again say that there is an opportunity for Apple to jump on Opteron and have a second line that won't fall into the morass of x86 and still give companies an option in Windows. It's yet another mechanism for gaining share and driving those secondary profits. I don't believe that Jobs is as loyal to PPC as we are.
.

Amen.

That's it.

Not many are counting the 'new' focus on software and services and 'external to Mac' hardware that will allow Apple to offset margins to build margins. This with iTunes music store...and coming to Wintel...and who knows what other software to Wintel...Apple can reduce hardware prices.... They aint 'Mac only' anymore. Not with iPod...not with iTunes as per the Fall. Out the box? Mac being the 'Box'? Intriguing, noh? Nobody thought Apple would do X-serve. But they are. Or Unix. But they are. Or cut Tower prices. But they did. Or...a music player...but THEY DID!

Different Apple. New Apple. Thinking Different.

A superb post...Johnsonwax.

And Matsu. You're callin' it. Apple's laptops are the dog's danglies...but why not the desktops? Johnsonwax alludes to this. But you're right, Matsu? It IS frustrating that Apple's desktops are naff and more expensive than their portables. Doesn't make 'sense'.

Keep the posts coming. I can't add much. You've both done it for me.

Darn.



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post #88 of 234
Quote:
People want affordable towers, apple will provide them, or lose sales once the initial fervor dies down --- something that won't take too long.

If you'll notice, SimX, I've not said anywhere that Apple needs to sell a loaded DP G5 for 1299, I said a "stripped down tower," just put the G5 in there and the modern Mobo, the rest of the spec can be fairly minimal as concerns RAM, drives, and the GPU, and optical.

Better make an impact, NOW.

Exactly. An important distinction. Stripped bare bar mobo/cpu. Cheap as chips. Let people spec what they want and pay the extra.

Bang on, Matsu.

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post #89 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
SO, eeexcelent news in the form of PPc970 monsters has arrived. 1.6SP-2.0DP with 8GB RAm and fully modernized I/O. But what about the prices?

No cryptic messages. No veiled statements. No name, no slogan. I'm happy to say regarding the prices on the new G5 PowerMacs pre-announced tourettes syndrome-style on Apple's web store: I haven't a clue in the world what they'll sell for.

Hopefully they will be reasonably priced, as I'd like to pick one up.
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post #90 of 234
moki, buddy, free at last free at last!!!! goddamit free at last!!!!
so tell it all baby!, tell it all!!!!!!
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post #91 of 234
the beans have been spilled, so no more hints, straight to the
point. boy what the hell are you think we are getting!!!!??
The world belongs to who wants it , now who deserves it.
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post #92 of 234
I like how noone has had a chance to test drive these babies and people are claiming there won't be that much of a speed difference between Pee4s and G5s.

They haven't even been seen yet and people are dismissing them as over priced and not that fast.

Interesting.
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post #93 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Yep, I would, these machines have to cover a lot of territory, from mid range to high end.

It is VERY VERY odd to speak of 1299-1499 towers as low end, in the rest of the market these would be high-end or upper mid range prices (for towers that come without displays). These are the market share building machines among a community that counts, PROS -- pros who will buy lotsa expensive software licenses, peripherals, service, they need a price on a PM class machine that can bring these people in, iMacs won't do it, they're boutique computers (especially in the minds of potential PM buyers).


I don't know what kinda pro you are talking about, but as a pro myself I need not want the top of the line not the low end stuff. When you are working with 500mb Photoshop file you don't have time for the beach ball to spinn. Time is money!
post #94 of 234
i think these machines are gonna drop in price.

1499 for entry
2199 mid
2799 high
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post #95 of 234
post #96 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by O and A
i think these machines are gonna drop in price.

1499 for entry
2199 mid
2799 high

Um...that's what they are now, except the Middle is $2000
post #97 of 234

Sure, as long as they are spec'ed appropriately, with FW800, optical audio, HyperTransport mobo (or equivalent), PCI-X, etc, etc.

Seriously, what *is* a *similarly* spec'ed out Wintel box going for these days?? Can anyone *find* one? And please, let's look beyond just the CPU speed.
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post #98 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by O and A
i think these machines are gonna drop in price.

1499 for entry
2199 mid
2799 high

entry 1799
mid 2499
high 3299
post #99 of 234

According to the specs apple posted on there site i don't see how u can compare it with those dells. especially in terms of price.
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post #100 of 234
You know if you are going to make comparisons wouldn't it be FAIR to compare machines that have the same relative specs?
post #101 of 234
I'm not saying that these Dells are matched spec for spec, just that the lowest price there ($699) is pretty much the entry-level price for an expandable, fast, stripped down box.

You may not like Dell being the market-setter, but where Dell goes, so go computer prices.

Until Apple sees fit to address this situation, expect the 2-5% (depending on who's counting) market share to continue ad infinitum.
post #102 of 234
And Apple doesn't want to whore themselves to the point of releasing a box stripped down to this point. Dell doesn't mind. Good for Dell. If Apple releases Dell crap, then they are no better than them.
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post #103 of 234
yeah, keep going on believing that.....

I'm not to do a spec for spec bake-off until after Monday when the specs are relaesed, but I guarantee that a you can find every price point occupied by Apple to get whipped by it's price point counterpart in PCland by 20, 50 or even 100% in terms of dollars.

Money talks, etc.....
post #104 of 234
**100%**??

*ROTFLMAO*

Okay, you go find me an equivalent *any* machine from Apple, from a Wintel manufacturer, for free.

Jeez mon, it's basic math for god's sake.
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post #105 of 234
now you are just being trollish i fred.
post #106 of 234
by 100% he means the PC price equivalent to be 50% of the Mac. Thus the Mac would be 100% more than the PC.
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post #107 of 234
Fast - 1299
Faster - 1799
Fastest - 2499

17" LCD - $549
20" LCD - $1299
23" LCD - $1999

Buy a new PM G5 and an LCD and receive a $200 rebate. I'd hope something like this comes to pass and I don't see it as too unreasonable. We'll see.
post #108 of 234
Then his ability to translate thought into English sucks... because that's not what he said.

If product A beats product B in price 'by 20%', then you'd *expect* product A's price to be 100-20 = 80% of B's. 20% less.

If, however, product B is 20% more than product A's price, then A costs 83.3% of B. 16.6% less.

Basic math.

And I'd *still* love for him to find a *similarly spec'd* Wintel box for even 50% of the price of one of the new boxes. Seriously. Fully decked out, feature for feature, performance being equal... *NOT* clock speed, but actual honest to god performance, taking into consideration mobo bus, RAM speed, the whole shebang.

Pointing at a $699 box that doesn't even match the *eMac* for performance is just idiotic. Come on... a 2.2GHz *Celeron*? I don't buy it.
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post #109 of 234
Yeah, it was worded horribly, I agree.
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post #110 of 234
Alienware's Grey system (after upgrading to a combo drive) is pretty much on in feature parity. You can't add as much RAM, but it has a much better video card and more base RAM than what we're likely to see in the "Fast" model G5. It's $1467 base, and then a $100 AMD rebate takes it down to $1367.

I'm not promoting it or anything, I don't own an Alienware computer, but I've heard they're built very well and they seem to have come from humble beginnings.
post #111 of 234
fred being a troll. Let him be.
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post #112 of 234
Me?
post #113 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by Gakusei
Fast - 1299
Faster - 1799
Fastest - 2499

17" LCD - $549
20" LCD - $1299
23" LCD - $1999

Buy a new PM G5 and an LCD and receive a $200 rebate. I'd hope something like this comes to pass and I don't see it as too unreasonable. We'll see.

I think thats a little to hopeful buddy. If you put the g5 at that price point where do u put the high end iMac that is 600mhz slower than the slowest powermac. Where do you put the eMac? Now where the heck do you put the ibook?

Either way if they maintain the current price point it will still be interesting to see how the other products will be priced. I think we will clearly see apple agressively priceing all of there machines.
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post #114 of 234
The more i consider a lower price, the more it makes sense. The 970 is rumored to be less expensive to manufacture than the G4. IBM supposedly helped in much of the main controller R&D. And with the economy the way it is it would be prudent to keep the prices as they are. Maybe lower them as time passed.
post #115 of 234
Here is a Dell with sort of the same specs for $2700:

Dell Dimension XPS
3 Gzh P4 with 800 Mzh bus
1024 mb DDR ram at 400 mhz (free upgrade)
128 DDR Radeo 9800 Pro graphics card (180 less for regular 9800)
120 gig Serial ATA hard drive
4x DVD+RW/+R
Gigabit Ethernet
no monitor
Windows XP Pro
Microsoft Plus DME
Dell Jukebox Plus
Dell Movie Studio
Dell Picture Studio, Image Expert Premium
All the software stuff is extra but it seems reasonable to compare this with the iLife stuff.
I think this computer has firewire but I am not sure.

All the Dells look cheap but when you actually try to configure one the price quickly goes up.
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post #116 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by O and A
I think thats a little to hopeful buddy. If you put the g5 at that price point where do u put the high end iMac that is 600mhz slower than the slowest powermac.

Someone in another thread said that their university store was clearing out the 17" superdrive iMac for $1349. I'd say it could be put at $1399 for the regular consumer...that's getting a little closer to the iMac's original price. LCD's aren't too expensive anymore, so it could be done I think.

PowerMac G5 + 17" = $1648
iMac 17" = $1399

Quote:
Where do you put the eMac? Now where the heck do you put the ibook?

Same $799 price...they're not even close price-wise...$850 less??

Quote:
ibook?

The iBook's a portable and it's already at $1299 for the top end 12" model. Apple can't continue balancing out its product matrix by fixing the prices on one product too high as to not eclipse another. If they're having too much trouble keeping the iMac or iBook up to date, maybe it's time to reconsider making them at all.


Quote:
I think we will clearly see apple agressively priceing all of there machines.

I hope so.
post #117 of 234
it would be hilarious if steve went to the dell site and config'd their systems vs. the g5 right on stage and showed the audience the g5s are cheaper!
post #118 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by jante99
Here is a Dell with sort of the same specs for $2700:

<snip>

All the Dells look cheap but when you actually try to configure one the price quickly goes up.

Those specs would be about equal to the Dual G5 which will more than likely be priced higher than $2700. There's no way a single 1.6ghz G5 ~ P4 3ghz. Unless that Ars article is completely wrong..
post #119 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by Gakusei
Alienware's Grey system (after upgrading to a combo drive) is pretty much on in feature parity. You can't add as much RAM, but it has a much better video card and more base RAM than what we're likely to see in the "Fast" model G5. It's $1467 base, and then a $100 AMD rebate takes it down to $1367.

I'm not promoting it or anything, I don't own an Alienware computer, but I've heard they're built very well and they seem to have come from humble beginnings.

Nice, but...

Where's the bus speed info on the mobo? (Ah, here: http://www.alienware.com/Configurato...x?ItemId=11153) 400/333MHz?!? Oh man.

It's ATA-133, not Serial ATA.

Optical audio? Only on the Deluxe version of the mobo, it seems.

100bT Enet, not Gigabit.

Etc, etc, etc.

It looks like you have to move up to the Area-51 before you start getting into the same basic mobo level features that the lowest level PMG5 is expected to have... for $2099. Versus what, $1599 for the PMG5? Less maybe?

It's going to be interesting.
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post #120 of 234
Quote:
Originally posted by Gakusei
Those specs would be about equal to the Dual G5 which will more than likely be priced higher than $2700. There's no way a single 1.6ghz G5 ~ P4 3ghz. Unless that Ars article is completely wrong..

Naw, a 1.6G5 should be about the same as a 2-2.4GHz P4.

A 1.8GHz G5 should be competitive with a 3GHz P4 in some areas, and a 2GHz G5 should be *definitely* in the same ballpark, far better in some areas, perhaps a bit less in others. Time will tell.
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