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post #121 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
In what way, applenut?

Unfortunately in MANY ways

Where should I start... Panther

1. Finder.... apparently moving the toolbar from the top to the left pane makes the finder "new" and "user centric". The graphite scheme is ugly. It's not up to par with what I have come to expect from Apple's software designers and now they are spreading it throughout the OS and software titles. Other than that, the finder still seems to be flawed in many of the ays he said the new one fixes. I don't get it

2. not much else to justify 129 bucks to me yet.... no awe dropping features with the exception of expose which is a godsend. of course im sure under the hood its a lot stronger but feature wise its lacking so far.

iSight and iChat AV

150 dollars for this single purpose camera is ridiculous. I don't care if it captures pristine quality video. 150 dollars is way too steep, especially considering you really need TWO of them to actually use iChat AV the way its suppose to. It looks like it works well and is very cool, but the price point they settled on is assinine for all but the money is no issue mac users.


PowerMac G5

uhg....
1. Reduced hard drive bays from 4 (supported) to 2.
2. Reduced PCI slots from 4 to 3
3. Reduced external drive bays from 2 to 1
4. They got rid of the door. What the hell? It was a signature part and advantage of Apple's towers. And now its gone.

Apple greatly reduced expansion options all while RAISING the price. Not only that, they raised the entry level model 500 dollars. As if that wasnt bad enough, the entry level model is NEUTERED... no PCI-X, no DDR-400, no 8GB RAM max. The standard video card situation is not impressive considering the price of these machines... and the only difference between the high end and mid range is an additional processor yet the price increases 600 dollars.


Most of all, the entry price point for a user who wants an upgradable graphic card and/or PCI slot(s) and a choice of displays shot up today and Apple offers no suitable "prosumer" option.
post #122 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
I'm just watching the keynote, and what the Adobe guy said was that the new Power Macs are more than twice as fast as any machine they've seen - not any Mac.

That's not what he (Bruce Chizen) says on the video: "it's up to two times as fast as the previous performance we've experienced on the Macintosh."

I'm not really saying that means much, but as a bare statement it doesn't seem that impressive (particularly as he also states that Adobe has been working closely with Apple on Photoshop.
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post #123 of 190
Bruce Chizen has little interest in helping Apple out. He does this for good PR with his users. Despite the fact that he doesn't want to support Macs, he can at least damn with faint praise.
post #124 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
Unfortunately in MANY ways

Where should I start... Panther

1. Finder.... apparently moving the toolbar from the top to the left pane makes the finder "new" and "user centric". The graphite scheme is ugly. It's not up to par with what I have come to expect from Apple's software designers and now they are spreading it throughout the OS and software titles. Other than that, the finder still seems to be flawed in many of the ays he said the new one fixes. I don't get it

2. not much else to justify 129 bucks to me yet.... no awe dropping features with the exception of expose which is a godsend. of course im sure under the hood its a lot stronger but feature wise its lacking so far.

iSight and iChat AV

150 dollars for this single purpose camera is ridiculous. I don't care if it captures pristine quality video. 150 dollars is way too steep, especially considering you really need TWO of them to actually use iChat AV the way its suppose to. It looks like it works well and is very cool, but the price point they settled on is assinine for all but the money is no issue mac users.


PowerMac G5

uhg....
1. Reduced hard drive bays from 4 (supported) to 2.
2. Reduced PCI slots from 4 to 3
3. Reduced external drive bays from 2 to 1
4. They got rid of the door. What the hell? It was a signature part and advantage of Apple's towers. And now its gone.

Apple greatly reduced expansion options all while RAISING the price. Not only that, they raised the entry level model 500 dollars. As if that wasnt bad enough, the entry level model is NEUTERED... no PCI-X, no DDR-400, no 8GB RAM max. The standard video card situation is not impressive considering the price of these machines... and the only difference between the high end and mid range is an additional processor yet the price increases 600 dollars.


Most of all, the entry price point for a user who wants an upgradable graphic card and/or PCI slot(s) and a choice of displays shot up today and Apple offers no suitable "prosumer" option.

Why are some people so predictable?
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #125 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
Unfortunately in MANY ways

Where should I start... Panther

1. Finder.... apparently moving the toolbar from the top to the left pane makes the finder "new" and "user centric". The graphite scheme is ugly. It's not up to par with what I have come to expect from Apple's software designers and now they are spreading it throughout the OS and software titles. Other than that, the finder still seems to be flawed in many of the ays he said the new one fixes. I don't get it


It goes back to this whole thing with X - "classic" is a perfection of simplicity. Now Apple is trying to make perfection of complexity. Rather than trying to build on "classic" they want to throw the baby out with the bath water - "no, that's not right, let's do something new".

I think we've already seen some of this in X, and I think we're going to keep on seeing it for a while yet. This whole brushed metal thing is so yucky.
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post #126 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Why are some people so predictable?

why are some people so dumb and gullable that they will type a post like you just did and not back anything up?

i'm impressed.... really....
post #127 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Clive
That's not what he (Bruce Chizen) says on the video: "it's up to two times as fast as the previous performance we've experienced on the Macintosh."

I'm not really saying that means much, but as a bare statement it doesn't seem that impressive (particularly as he also states that Adobe has been working closely with Apple on Photoshop.

But they say (and show) something else in the keynote.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #128 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Bruce Chizen has little interest in helping Apple out. He does this for good PR with his users. Despite the fact that he doesn't want to support Macs, he can at least damn with faint praise.

Why do you say that?
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post #129 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
Unfortunately in MANY ways
iSight and iChat AV

150 dollars for this single purpose camera is ridiculous. I don't care if it captures pristine quality video. 150 dollars is way too steep, especially considering you really need TWO of them to actually use iChat AV the way its suppose to. It looks like it works well and is very cool, but the price point they settled on is assinine for all but the money is no issue mac users.

The iSight camera is priced pretty good actually. Logitech cameras, decent ones, cost $99, and they are the generic USB variety. This is a MUCH nicer camera, and it costs $149. Its a deal.

The 1.6Ghz G5 for $2k is stupid. Its braindead.

The 2Ghz Dual G5 is a steal of a deal.

-M
post #130 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
But they say (and show) something else in the keynote.

I think it's not Bruce Chizen in the key note. Also the video is obviously scripted and edited, so more likely to be "right" than someone live on stage.

It's Apple's video, if it really was twice as fast as anything else they would have gotten him to say so, no?
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post #131 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by moazam
The iSight camera is priced pretty good actually. Logitech cameras, decent ones, cost $99, and they are the generic USB variety. This is a MUCH nicer camera, and it costs $149. Its a deal.

The 1.6Ghz G5 for $2k is stupid. Its braindead.

The 2Ghz Dual G5 is a steal of a deal.

-M

perhaps.... I was realllllly hoping he'd say $99. It'll see a very slow adoption rate at $149 but I guess we can always hope for a price cut by Christmas\
post #132 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
why are some people so dumb and gullable that they will type a post like you just did and not back anything up?

i'm impressed.... really....

Actually I agree, JLL if you're going to criticise you have to do better than that, all you've basically written is "you suck".
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post #133 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by TAZ
I am both stoked and disappointed somewhat. My disappointent comes from the Powerbook arena. I ... was hoping that they would make a new PB come to light, even if it was a new Al 15" er. By the looks of things (high number of fans) the 970 aint gonna be inside a notebook for a while ...

Let's have a look, dual 2GHz cpu draw 4.5 times the power of a 1.2 GHz cpu. Nine fans divided by 4.5 is 2. One off for a heat pipe.
Tight fit but G5 Powerbook introduced next month, availabe in august
post #134 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Clive
I think it's not Bruce Chizen in the key note. Also the video is obviously scripted and edited, so more likely to be "right" than someone live on stage.

Well the guy on stage has acutally seen a Mac in the last 5 years


Quote:
It's Apple's video, if it really was twice as fast as anything else they would have gotten him to say so, no?

Don't ask me, but if you believe Chizen then a Dual 1.42GHz Power Mac is about as fast as a Dual 3.06 GHz Xeon.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #135 of 190
1. 2 Drive Bays- When TODAY you can purchase a Terabyte of HD space in just two drives. I don't see this as much of an issue. Those who need more space can grab an Xraid. Apple shouldn't be screwing up the internal layout to satiate those who want to recycle old HD on their last legs.

2. External Bay. I think PC's are going this route as well. Does anyone really care about the latest CDRW drives and their speed. There is a point of diminishing returns. I'm sure many people are happy with a DVDR drive with acceptable CDRW burning.

3. PCI Slots- Losing one slot doesn't mean much when just recently Firewire has made great strides in Audio/Video. Plus USB 2.0 is onboard now. It's becoming increasingly difficult to justify a bunch of PCI slots when even Hardware developers are shying away from PCI where applicable.

4. Not many people I spoke to cared about the door. It was like "neat" but not a huge selling feature.


I don't like the lowend unit. It's the typical Apple crippeware that is so infuriating. Another Yikes.
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post #136 of 190
Quote:
1. 2 Drive Bays- When TODAY you can purchase a Terabyte of HD space in just two drives. I don't see this as much of an issue. Those who need more space can grab an Xraid. Apple shouldn't be screwing up the internal layout to satiate those who want to recycle old HD on their last legs.

4 drives didnt screw up the internal layout of the old powermacs. obviously its a weakness in the design if you must make sacrifices to expansion.

250 plus 250 = 1 terabyte?

Xraid is QUITE A BIT more $$$ than it would be to buy 2 more serial ATA drives for a PowerMac if it had the space. so its not a solution.

Quote:
2. External Bay. I think PC's are going this route as well. Does anyone really care about the latest CDRW drives and their speed. There is a point of diminishing returns. I'm sure many people are happy with a DVDR drive with acceptable CDRW burning.

why take it away? what purpose? it took them 2 and a half years to finally ADD a 2nd bay and now they remove it again.... why? because they didn't want to change the design? again, a flaw in the design of the product.

Quote:
3. PCI Slots- Losing one slot doesn't mean much when just recently Firewire has made great strides in Audio/Video. Plus USB 2.0 is onboard now. It's becoming increasingly difficult to justify a bunch of PCI slots when even Hardware developers are shying away from PCI where applicable.

it's a minor issue compared to the others but still, it's another thing apple took away from the previous line all while raising the price. Apple added a 4th due to overwhelming demand for a 4th over the years.... and now they go back to 3... why? because of design limits of the case?


Quote:
4. Not many people I spoke to cared about the door. It was like "neat" but not a huge selling feature.


i'm pretty sure that if a survery was conducted the opening door of the previous powermacs had a very big impression on buyers and was a lot more than "neat"
post #137 of 190
Look, I just got in and watched the keynote: OH MY GOD!!!!

This, people, is what we have been yammering about on these very boards for years. Apple getting on top with a machine that just blows everyone away. I'm speechless. I'm gonna be scraping for cash. I WANT ONE NOW!!!!
post #138 of 190
Apple will never learn ....*sigh*

They finally get a sweet arse processor that will put them on top in terms of speed to go along with the already kick ass Mac OS X operating system. Then what do they do? Come up with a sweet looking blazing machine with......1 optical bay & 3 PCI slots. Can Apple actually hit a home run in every single area for once? It really isnt that hard not to, yet you go and take a step backwards. People want more than a single drive bay. People want more than 3 PCI slots. Some people NEED more and I NEED more. I have my PCI slots filled in my QS, and would add more if I could fit them.

Not only this, but you have the IBM 970 processor which supposedly costs 50% less than the G4 chip yet you theoretically RAISE prices on the models. $1999 for a low end machine is not acceptable, and neither is a GeForce FX 5200. At least they gave it a superdrive. The front ports and optical SPDIF in/out is great, but there's no mention of what the audio processor is inside the G5. I didn't even realize until applenut's post that they once again cripple the low end. Why? Why do you have to purposely cripple the features on the low end tower? It's low end and cheaper because its slower and doesnt include as much memory & has a smaller HD. That constitutes the price difference. If anything, it is false advertising on the part of Apple with their claims about bandwidth and touting PCI-X.

ATI RADEON 9600 Pro with 64MB DDR SDRAM ?? Do they even make them with 64 MB of RAM? This is on a $3000 high end machine folks. This isn't the year 2000 Steve.

Here you have undoubtedly the fastest computers on the market right now coupled with the best operating system yet you find a way to screw it all up. The price hike? Simply because Apple CAN and of course they WILL. It isn't fair to the consumer but of course Apple has a monopoly over it's own market and can inact these business practices.

The sad thing is I will probably end up trying to get one.

So close, yet so far away Apple.
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post #139 of 190
My initial reaction to the keynote play by play (I'm at work) was HOLY S***!!! Apple just went to DDR ram last year and now they are out in front of PC's in chipset tech. NICE!

I also thought the G5 looked just terrible, but after looking at it for a while it's growing on me...

It's been a great day, the only dissapointment is that my 1 year old dual 1ghz feels really old and the new powermac has very limited internal HD/optical drive space.

Lastly, today intel intro'd the last of the P4's, woopty woop, but the p5 specs (due later this year) are on par with apple tech wise it seems. Even more interesting is intel's plans for a consumer 64bit chip for later this year. Perhaps they are a bit worried about apple and amd coming out with one?

Ok, really lastly...
The last I heard, intel "certified" certain vendors DDR chips for springdale/canterwood. As I understood it, it was because the DDR400 was not finalized by (insert organization that determines the spec as I can't remember) and using DDR that wasnt certified as intel compatible might cause stabilitly problems...long story short, should we worry about DDR400 memory and use apple's or will any do? Has the spec been finalized?

GO APPLE...KILLER SOFTWARE, NOW WITH KILLER HARDWARE!
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post #140 of 190
The 1.8 Gzh model is as low as $2100 with an EDU discount and no Super Drive. This seems very reasonable.
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post #141 of 190
Hmmm, after reading some other posts and taking a closer look at the models offered...
WTF is with the 1.6? Lame apple, just lame...

Also, everyone keeps saying the dual 2 is the best deal. Why? Does 200mhz (especially when its already at 1800) and another proc justify $600? I guess if you must have the best...
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post #142 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnHenry
Hmmm, after reading some other posts and taking a closer look at the models offered...
WTF is with the 1.6? Lame apple, just lame...

Also, everyone keeps saying the dual 2 is the best deal. Why? Does 200mhz (especially when its already at 1800) and another proc justify $600? I guess if you must have the best...

Although this doesn't apply to a decent number of people in here, I'd say yes. If you need the dual processors (I surely don't), $600 (really $550 cause you also get the 9600 Pro, $50 upgrade from the 5200 FX) for the second processor that's at the high end is quite reasonable. For reference, Intel's 3.2 GHz P4 is running at around $637 in quantities of 1000 according to a C|Net Article today.
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post #143 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnHenry
Also, everyone keeps saying the dual 2 is the best deal. Why? Does 200mhz (especially when its already at 1800) and another proc justify $600? I guess if you must have the best...

well, at the risk of sounding ignorant (because, as we all now, it ain't the Hz, it's how you spend 'em), for an extra $600, you go from 1800 MHz t, um, roughly 4000 MHz. let's see, divide, carry the two... looks like a good deal to me.
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-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #144 of 190
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining...
I just didn't see it as the BEST deal
Mmmmm 4000mhz
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post #145 of 190
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cory Bauer
[B]Absolutely amazing machines. I couldn't be happier. It is interesting that for the first time I can think of, the high-end Powermac is the sweet spot in price/performance. I am also very happy that the Dual 2Ghz didn't break the $3k pricepoint. Very good!

As many of you have already made note, the low-end machine seems really expensive! However, it is great that you can get a Dual 1.25Ghz G4 Powermac for $1,599 on Apple's site now, and a single 1.25Ghz G4 Powermac for $1,299.
________________________________________________

Though the Price reductions are nice - I see a lots of reference to the $1,299 1.25 GHZ -- But get that a little closer to the G5s like boost the RAM to 512MB, and Video Memory to 128 MB and Hardrive to 160 GB and the price is like $1,950 only $450 cheaper than the single 1.8GHz G5. Given the much better specs on the 1.8 - Its the system for me. Now if I and just come up with another $600.
post #146 of 190
Quote:
It looks like an understated, "I'm going to rip your ear off" machine, just sitting there. It's simple and low-key and just looks like a squared-away, "ready to do 'bid-ness'" machine if there's ever been one!

Agreed. Nickname: 'The Bastard!'

That's what I'm calling mine when I get it.

Tigerwoods99. Fully agree with your post.

No home run. 3rd base, eh?

Apple. Brilliant. But flawed.

Maybe when Rev B comes along and the fuss and sales (of such pricey machines...) die down...we may see more sane pricing.

Mind you...the top end, ironically, is only a couple of hundred pounds more expensive (inc VAT) than the last top end G4!

THAT is impressive. The other two models look very pricey.

And there is no excuse shipping anything less than an ATI 9800 in a £2,300 Tower. Or less than a gig of DDR.

C'mon. No display either.

Sweet spot? The dual 2 gigger.

Will I buy or crack? I'm cracking already. And I haven't seen one in person...



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post #147 of 190
With Quark 6 and a fall rise in Design/Publishing budgets...I can see Apple, along with pent up demand...make a killing in the next two quarters...

And there's 6 months of 2003 to go. Intriguing.

Maybe I'll let my Apple stock fund this purchase...

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #148 of 190
I was at the Apple Store at the Mall of America. Almost 300-350 people. Amazing keynote - truly a watershed day in Apple history.

I thought the Panther demo was as impressive, if not more so, than the G5.

I don't understand the low end model. It's too crippled to appeal to the "pro's" and too expensive (and too crippled) for the prosumer. It's almost as if Apple doesn't want anyone to buy the 1.6

A minor quibble, though -- it just means that Apple has some work to do filling the prosumer hole in its lineup.
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post #149 of 190
ok im in now...

i didnt see the keynote yet but checked out the new g5's at apple.com and all i can say is WOW!

for the last 5 (or 6) years i have been on these boards at appleinsider and just when i thought an upcoming keynote would introduce a new powermac i could buy there would always be something missing (ddr ram, processer, fsb, etc) that would cause me to say "maybe next keynote they'll get it right and i'll buy"

i can honestly say, that now is the time...

they fixed everything i had as a reason not to buy a powermac
and more importantly this is the machine i can now show my pc using friends that may convince them to switch. 1 gig fsb? 8 gigs of ram max? beating a 3 gig p4? what???

what im buying:

the 1.6 gig? riiiight, next...
the 1.8 gig? uhhhh (snorts derisively...)
the duel 2 gig? ahhhhhh..... now thats the one...

think about it,
if you can start at 2k for the 1.6, you can reach a little and get the 1.8, and if you can do THAT, you may as well reach just a little bit more and get the best... the duel 2 gig model.

the diffrence is only 10-one-hundred-dollar-bills...

those of you planning to get the YIKES!, i mean, the 1.6 gig machine...think about this, if you already have the 2k for that, and you save 100 bucks every week until they are ready to ship, you'll have the extra 1k to go for the top of the line!

hey this is going to be my first real mac, and i want it to be the very best!
post #150 of 190
It'll be a little hard for me to buy one anytime soon knowing that 3ghz is only a year away. My G4 can hold out until then.................. or can it?
post #151 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
With Quark 6 and a fall rise in Design/Publishing budgets...I can see Apple, along with pent up demand...make a killing in the next two quarters...

A fall rise!? WTF is that? Do you mean "Autumn" perchance?

I don't think there's much chance of that, budgets are constrained from where I'm sitting, and I think they're going to stay that way into next year (don't forget we're only three months into the financial year over here, and the US usually starts in Jan - I don't think you're going to see much change until new budgets get assigned).
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post #152 of 190
Good thread (for the most part).

Moving to General Discussion so it doesn't become an innocent victim of the Temporary Insanity napalm dump.
post #153 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Akumulator
It'll be a little hard for me to buy one anytime soon knowing that 3ghz is only a year away. My G4 can hold out until then.................. or can it?

Hey, hold onto your money, 10 GHz is just five years away!
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post #154 of 190
I can't believe people are bitching about PCI slots. Not only are there 2 PCI buses but PCI-X maxes out at 2 devices per bus. One has 2 slots and the other is split between a slot and the peripheral controller. The info is all there, you just have to put 2 and 2 together. With so many other things to bitch about. The only thing I would bitch about is price on the low end.

As a side note: look at the internal shots of the G5. Where is the power supply???
post #155 of 190
Actually under further examination it appears to be enclosed away from the rest of the machine ALL THE WAY at the bottom! See the power connector sneaking its way up?
post #156 of 190
I'm gonna bet that Apple didn't put a 2nd Optical drive bay on the G5 towers because after people begged and bitched for one and they added it with the Mirrored Drive Doors, NO ONE EVER BOUGHT TWO OPTICAL DRIVES. More than likely, they sold so very few that it wasn't worth designing this case around that big empty void which one out of 30,000 customers would actually fill. I really don't know the numbers, but I bet it's really, really low.

I was ticked about the 2 internal drive limit too, until I realized you can buy 300GB drives now, and we'd have to buy Serial ATA drives for the new cases anyway

As for the one less PCI slot, I dunno about that. Although there are probably very, very few people who actually use four PCI slots, I think this is one area Apple should have tried a little harder on, because it's not an issue that has a cheap alternative.

But if you really need 4 PCI slots, take advantage of the situation and order a Dual 1.25Ghz G4 for $1,599 while they're still available
post #157 of 190
To qoute a famous Aussy...

Some of u would complain at a funeral.
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post #158 of 190
These G5s are the best thing since digitized porno
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post #159 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Cory Bauer
I'm gonna bet that Apple didn't put a 2nd Optical drive bay on the G5 towers because after people begged and bitched for one and they added it with the Mirrored Drive Doors, NO ONE EVER BOUGHT TWO OPTICAL DRIVES.

No, they dropped wicked-fast CD-R drives into them for cheap. I did.
post #160 of 190
I agree re: iSight...$99 is that "sweet" spot (you break that psychological 3-digit barrier too) and I could really imagine people buying the crap out of them for that price!

Yes, here's hoping that by the holidays Apple goes "okay, we really need to scoot that one down, guys..." and price it at that.

Although, as someone said, it does seem to be a lot nicer than the others out there. It is FireWire based (once cable too), mounts on any Mac, seems to have better display, clarity and color, etc.

I don't know. If more of my friends and family were on Macs and all AND if I have $149 burning a hold in my wallet, sure.

Until then, I'd rather keep saving for my PowerBook.

Getting there...
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