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post #161 of 190
I am totally vindicated!

We are now seeing that a wealth of my predictions are actually right on, though I have wavered in the excitement.

"What?" you say, "how so?"

What I've been saying in the days leading up to this show: IN BOLD Commentary following each.

1299 low end PM NEEDS to be 1299.

With the G4 model that nobody mentioned in the iChat buzz-a-thon, there it is, and it isn't so bad!

Apple typically welches, or makes a half assed effort on the low end machine

The 1299 model is there, but it's a single G4, albeit with L3. I would have prefered stripping out a G5 and selling that, but it at least shows the intention to get a 1299 PM is there. Good. I'll wait for the real one. Which leads me to point three.

There will NOT be G5 PowerBooks for about 12 months after the intro of the G5

In my optimism I had ammended my thoughts to say perhaps a 17 by the end of the year, but the prices of these G5's show it clearly, Apple is excercising an inadvertent form of demand control. Demand will still be huge, from workstation customers, but it's pretty clear that the costs of putting this puppy in a PB are not in the range for a laptop yet. New CPU, new architecture, miniturization, etc etc... The volume will be there, but not this year. We might be waiting for .09u, might not, but some costs need to be absorbed first. It appears that the G5 is not as cheap as we believed IBM would make it. It will be, but later.

So, there you have it, a not total vindication of my statements, but not that far off actually.

ANd, generally positive news for "PRO" customers.

I believe prices will come down, NEXT YEAR, for now, there are enough people who will pay for G5's.

It appears to me, that a PM G4 is nearly the cube we had been spec'cing out in our many discussions.

What remains now, is to see whether Apple merely intends to clear them out and be rid of them, or whether they will gradually move g5's down into that range.
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post #162 of 190
My first impressions (with all due respect to Applenut) regarding Panther:

This was very impressive! This was a DEVELOPER's conference remember...and it was advertised to be about PANTHER, not G5's.

The new, integrated subApps I think are incredible and much more than the "genie effect" stuff that made us "ooh and aah" when QExtreme first came out. Now the QE promises are beginning to be realized in Expose and other optimizations that we won't notice until we have it in our hands. QE is now becoming a teenager and has all the makings for a successful adulthood far into the future. Those who don't feel this, I think, are taking a very jaded and narrow view of the technology.

Expose itself I think is so very cool and guess what? All the nidgets who worried about tiny Dock images of all of their windows suddenly have an elegant way of navigating docs that Windows can't duplicate. This is BIG for the creative crowd and is something that in the past we would only expect from 3rd party hacks. So if anyone has problems with OSX navigation now, I think it is time to get over bad habits.

Xcode looks to be a winner from the POV of a non-developer....and remember this is all sitting on the CD everyone gets...not to mention X11 and Apache and their friends!

The new Finder is, in my estimation, MUCH better (again with all due respect to his Applenuttiness). The move of the "favorites" bar from the top to the left is not just a smoke and mirrors change for the sake of change.

First in regards to the Finder, many have complained about the losing vertical real estate in the era of widescreen displays. Problem addressed, though the graphite up there still takes up some pixels!

Second, when you move the drives and faves to the left you now have a whole column to add as many icons and (eventually I believe) smart folder as you may want in a more vertical and elegant way. You can't do that with those things on a horizontal bar.

Third, the slow convergent evolution of the Finder, iTunes, iPhoto, iEtc. windows is a GREAT thing. It makes it intuitive and easy to go from one iApp to another and not have to hunt around ('a la Windowsland) to figure out where everything will be. I now can predict the basic layout of every iApp that Apple will come up with far into the future. Don't think that is insignificant to DEVELOPERS as well as my grandmother!

Fourth, we now see that the inconsistent convention of stripes vs. brushed metal for apps vs. Finder vs. utilities, etc. now has been given a unified theory. That theory states that "All things you need to deal with on your digital hub will be the same (THEMEABLE??), consistent, innocuous (as in, non-disruptive throbbing blue icons to the DEVELOPERS and creative-types) windows look and functionality." That means there is no arbitrary thematic differences between iApps, Finder and other "basic" programs. THAT is what I see as being "user-centric" vs. "application-centric."

Fast User Switching, is another very cool piece. It is simple and convenient! In my mind it not only makes the OS perfect for many home and office environments in a very elegant way, but it puts me back to going to that upper right hand icon that I used to use for application switching all of the time. That nostalgia aside, I love the Keynote-like transition. I also think it takes care of one of the biggest desires for the AI "prosumer" crowd - an effective implementation of virtual desktops. I don't really know much about them, but I can see giving myself all sorts of individualised "users" for myself, complete with different backgrounds and docks full of specific apps and files!!!! Do you GET IT?!?!? This takes care of much of the anti-dock whining that has been going on!!! This might just be my favorite, most time-saving change in the whole OS!

FileVault is only ho-hum to people who haven't lost their iBook! 'Nuff said.

Mail, which I don't use, now becomes an effective tool with quick and efficient thread reviewing. That is very big to me and to DEVELOPERS....are you getting the DEVELOPERS trend here?!

Preview improvements are actually impressive as well since I hope that pdf's will become as transparent as html is now.

iChat AVI am not a big IM person and I don't know about whether I will be comfortable with this, but I do believe that it changed the way people communicated at Apple when they were testing it and I can see that basically free, automatic, no-configuring videophoning 'a la 2001: A Space Odysseymay be a killer iApp for many people!! And, BTW, if you check on the specs of the iSight, I think you'll find it a respectable price. Just like the iPod, you have to hit a certain critical mass of quality before people jump into it whole hog!

The other OS improvements as far as I can tell are serviceable upgrades.

And THAT is merely about a BETA of PANTHER. So heck yah I'm happy!!

Again, I respect Applenut-case's opinions and I know there are reasons to be disappointed and everyone has pet projects that may not have come by this time around, but all this whining about the lower-end G5 and "Oh, sob, where are the 15.4inch PB's" make me just a little annoyed. Have you not heard of Seybold? NY? Random media events??? Cripes!!

Maybe later (when I get the work done that I was supposed to do today) I'll write about why I think that the G5 is just the first step on a pretty dang cool yellow brick road ... but for now I gotta earn money for what I think will be a great November for buying a 12" PowerBook!!
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post #163 of 190
All I can say is I almost sprayed my shorts when I saw the official G5 pages / details on Apple's site ... and then realized the price for the D2GHz was *gasp* reasonable.

I am gonna OWNZ ona DEEZ.


Bill, all your Xeonz are belong to dumpster!
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post #164 of 190
Macgregor, great point about the Fast User Switching
------------V I R T U A L D E S K T O P S!!------------------------
user: webgraphics
user: pictures
user: audio
user: video....come on!

Exposé looks sweet! Managing multiple files will be MUCH easier.
I love Panther man, I can't wait to get my hands on that feline.

iChat/iSight could be very useful in the corporate world too. iSight, as easy as it seems to get working(the features such as autoexposure, focusing and the noise suppresing mic could be huge with families who want to video chat while saving $$ on long distance.

I think Apple hit a triple that missed going over the wall by less than a foot....with the best clutch hitter in the league on deck. The enclosure is awesome. It looks professional, clean and mean at the same time. It's a GREAT day for Apple. I think the homerun would have been lower end G5 prices...a bit unrealistic given the fact that there are PowerMac G4s in the channels and iMacs. Had the 1.6 G5 been 1499 or so, what would happen to the prices of the G4s PMs/iMacs? Let's be realistic.(of course I would LOVE for the prices to be $1499/$1899/$2499).

It's the first wave of G5s....prices will go down. If the roadmap towards 3GHz G5s WITHIN 12 months holds, these v.1 puppies will be MUCH cheaper with the first speed bump in 6 months.
1.6 to 2, 1.8 to 2.2, 2 to 2.5?? mmmmm....get excited people!
post #165 of 190
I am happy.

Panther -

I'm not too crazy about the metal interface spreading. The new Finder menus do make sense, but I'd rather have an option allowing regular aqua windows.

I suggest instead of complaining to ourselves, we give feedback to Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback


If Apple isnt going to release Panther till latttteee this year, perhaps we will see some surprise features. In addition, perhaps the 100 new features, albeit small will improve the user experience more than the major features. Ah, the little things in life

The G5 -

I am impressed considering that we live in reality, not dreams. They arnt as cheap as we may want, but new technology is always more expensive. With an educational discount and sans the superdrive, it is a much more tolerable $1699.


The design is not too appealing, but it looks like Apple didnt have much choice or freedom, these are hot machines and have to be "Windtunnels" in order not to melt :P With this new cooling technique the open door system cannot be used. It is unfortunate, but it's not like I install things every five days.


I can only speak for myself on expandability. I got a G4/400 because I wanted expadability, it turns out in reality that I have only upgraded the RAM and graphics card, perhaps the hard drive later on. I have never used the PCI slots, but perhaps later on if I ever need to install USB 2.0 So if I got the new tower, expandability wouldnt be an issue.

Summing up:

Panther - looks Good, just do away with brush metal :P

G5 -
Price: Not too bad with edu. discount and no superdrive
Design: Fugly, but I dont want to be pretty and melt
Expandability: Expands to what I need it to do
Performance: No comment needed

Matt
post #166 of 190
Has anyone mentioned that the brushed metal in Panther seems to reflect the use of brushed metal in the hardware? I remember that by the time Puma came out, people were pointing out that the pinstripesin Aqua were out of date. Just an observation. Personally, I kind of like the metal, but I like it the "brushed" texture more subdued. It's a lot better than when it started (I wish .Mac web pages would lose the QT 4 look), but it could still be tweaked a bit.
post #167 of 190
For those of you who don't know, the "Jean Marie Hulot" during the iChat AV demo wasn't some stranger off the street or some anonymous friend of Steve Jobs. Jean Marie Hulot is essentially the father of Interface Builder. He wrote the original Interface Builder for NEXTSTEP in the 1980s. Don't know what his role in Apple is though, if any, but it was nice to see him pop up.
post #168 of 190
My reactions.

PowerMac G5: Nice. Nice architecture, nice CPU, nice industrial design, but ok pricing. Dual 2 GHz is a good deal. Single 1.6 GHz is ok, maybe $200 overpriced. Love the thermal and airflow design. System ASIC is cool and excellent design. AltiVec made app benchmarks 2x faster than x86 chips. It's not called Xmac.

Jaguar 10.2.7: This update supports 4+ GB of RAM? And apps only can have 4 GB of addressable memory. I wonder what Apple did here.

PowerMac G4: Nice reduction. Around $500 less than pre-WWDC for an equivalent machine.

iSight: Want one. Will pay $150 gladly. If only I had someone to chat with though. Everyone else in my family is computer illiterate.

Panther: Is this thing 64 bit? No mention. Otherwise excellent.

Expose: Wow! Genius UI window management tool.

Xcode: Not a developer, but sounds like developers will be happy with it.

Brush Metal: The more the better. I like brush metal a lot.

iChat AV: Cool. Wish it would support other IM protocols though.
post #169 of 190
------------------------------------------
posted by THT
My reactions.

Panther: Is this thing 64 bit? No mention. Otherwise excellent.
------------------------------------------

Yes Panther is 64 Bit.
post #170 of 190
Thread Starter 
Why did Jobs mention the 3 ghz 970? Doesn´t he want to sell all the 1st gen he can?
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post #171 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Why did Jobs mention the 3 ghz 970? Doesn´t he want to sell all the 1st gen he can?

he'll sell as many as possible right now as it is.

the mention was to give developers and customers some faith that we wouldn't be locked into the moto no-upgrade cycle for a while.

this mention will actually help sales (i.e. not being locked into a dead-end product)
post #172 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by pesi
he'll sell as many as possible right now as it is.

the mention was to give developers and customers some faith that we wouldn't be locked into the moto no-upgrade cycle for a while.

this mention will actually help sales (i.e. not being locked into a dead-end product)

You are right Jobs said that the new powermacs have a future : he give almost a roadmap. Coming from Jobs and his culture of secret, this is a major turn in his communication strategy. Like Intel or AMD, apple is starting to talk about the future.

It was easy to understand thas such a strategy was almost impossible in the time of Moto ...
post #173 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by kcgil
Yes Panther is 64 Bit.

So there will be both 32 bit and 64 bit versions? The 32 bit versions would be for all machines except for the PMG5. I found it strange that there has been absolutely no direct mention that Panther is 64 bit. There was mention of turning 32 bit apps into 64 bit apps, so indirectly, Panther has to have a 64 bit version...
post #174 of 190
Curious to know what the mainstream public reaction is. Or even the PC rags.
Apple has never had to preach to the converted Machead here. Even though we're a tough crowd too.

Are PC websites going to dis this G5 as just a 2Ghz machine that still fall behind their 3.2 P4? Can they honestly justify this or was Jobs' cooking up some optimistic numbers?
post #175 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
It was easy to understand thas such a strategy was almost impossible in the time of Moto ...

It was impossible because we, they, had know idea if and when Moto would move to the next generation process. Those 130 nm 7457 CPUs are desperately needed for Apple laptops, but Moto is so so late with them. But with IBM, all signs seem to say they will ramp up their 90 nm fab in 2H 04. Once a 970+ is fabbed at 90 nm, clock rates should increase by 50% at least.

If Moto was able to ship 7457 CPUs to Apple in June, Apple could be shipping 1 GHz to 1.6 GHz Powerbooks in September. A 17" dual 1.3 GHz is even possible. iBooks can also be upgraded to 1-1.2 GHz 7457 CPUs, without backside cache of course. If only IBM also had an 8 stages deep PPC 750 with AltiVec also in the works.
post #176 of 190
Quote:
Are PC websites going to dis this G5 as just a 2Ghz machine that still fall behind their 3.2 P4? Can they honestly justify this or was Jobs' cooking up some optimistic numbers?

I would say that Jobs is being overly optimistic with his "fastest personal computer" thing. My guess is that PC sites are going to take the stance that by the time the G5 is shipped (Sept. 1 now?), that dual 3.06 Dell he was using isn't going to be the fastest anymore. On top of that they will probably harp on the fact that a single G5 (fastest) is still beat by a single P4 (fastest), at least in int operations. I also read somewhere that those int and fp specs Jobs was using aren't very accurate, because there's a much better compiler on the windows platform, that gives them much higher int and fp numbers? I don't really know what any of that actually means, so if I got some of it wrong, feel free to correct me!
post #177 of 190
The photoshop test alone impressed me. Screw benchmarks thats my real world working condition. Did they say how much ram was in the g5 and the dell?
post #178 of 190
I'd like it except the vents are ugly. Honeycomb with mesh would have looked better.
post #179 of 190
post #180 of 190
I think Jobs had a little voodoo worked on the spec numbers. But SPEC, to me, is neither here nor there. Timed tests are the only thing that matters. It's the package that counts, not the SPEC.

I think that if you put a G5 head to head with a PC of the same price, in the same app for each respective platform, the G5 does some serious ass kicking.

This is still workstation and not desktop level performance we're talkin' now. Apple needs a headless machine for the rest of us, soon.

Either sell that single G4 1.25 for 999, drop in a superdrive for the 1299 price, or drop the dual 1.25 down to 1299.
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post #181 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by AirSluf
It looks like the higher levels of the VM object management haven't been touched so everything is identical as far as an application is concerned--access to a 32-bit 4GB address space. It's possible they only needed to make the kernel and the default pager (which handles most of the VM swapping work for the VM object) aware of the total available physical memory. The vnode pager (which pulls in file-mapped memory) could also be left alone as it is really only concerned with a page request at a time.

So, the kernel and the pager are 64 bit? What is it you mean by "aware"? The kernel and parts of VM system have to be able to "holisticaly" address 8 GB of memory, yes. If they don't have at least a 33 bit integer, there won't be enough ints to address all the bits of memory.
post #182 of 190
anybody purchasing with the student developers discount? what courses are required to join?
post #183 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
For those of you who don't know, the "Jean Marie Hulot" during the iChat AV demo wasn't some stranger off the street or some anonymous friend of Steve Jobs. Jean Marie Hulot is essentially the father of Interface Builder. He wrote the original Interface Builder for NEXTSTEP in the 1980s. Don't know what his role in Apple is though, if any, but it was nice to see him pop up.

Nice info THT! I appreciate details like that.
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post #184 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
So there will be both 32 bit and 64 bit versions? The 32 bit versions would be for all machines except for the PMG5. I found it strange that there has been absolutely no direct mention that Panther is 64 bit. There was mention of turning 32 bit apps into 64 bit apps, so indirectly, Panther has to have a 64 bit version...

no.

32bit and 64bit versions of an app can exist in the same file.

think fat-binaries from the 68k-ppc transition.

or like today, with an app like iTunes that can work on both G3 and G4 systems just the same, but has acceleration built in for altivec.
post #185 of 190
Reactions:

Panther: Yowza. Folks, we don't know everything that's going to be in there yet, but it's much faster, the Quartz Window Manager is no longer locked into a single-user paradigm (that's why OS X was so late to the party with "fast user switching"), Finder looks great, and especially the Open/Save dialog boxes look great, Xcode... well, wow. Audio/video conferencing looks just about effortless, and system-wide faxing is a Godsend for the many people who do still use faxes (Steve needs to get out more).

The G5: OK, so they had to make a number of changes in the name of keeping the thing cool and quiet, and that means that it's not as cluttered as the G4 was with all HDD bays and both optical drive bays filled. So there's one less PCI slot: There's also FW800, USB2.0, and toslink, which moot several reasons for PCI cards. Remember also that Apple has killer audio support, including support for an arbitrary number of channels, in software. The missing link was some form of digital out, and they've got two now (FW and toslink). Good stuff. If Gerhard is to be believed, audio DSP and digital I/O cards are basically pointless now.

As for the design, it's not as immediately striking as El Capitan, but it's clean and very Apple. I'll have to see it in person to really judge it, but I'll give it a thumbs up.

The low end machine does appear to be nerfed. Well, at least they're consistent, and at least you can get the machine down around the old low end price by plucking out the SuperDrive. Either the 970 is more expensive than predicted, or the board and case are expensive enough that even a relatively inexpensive CPU becomes burdensome (remember that price usually scales superlinearly with clock speed). All the same, I anticipate that the single-CPU machines are still impressive performers: The Wolfram Research guy strongly implied that Mathematica is not MP-aware ("you can use the other processor to run Word or something" - to paraphrase), and the closeup of the CPU meters in the Logic demo revealed that that app was leaning heavily on one CPU, and only occasionally borrowing the other. So, incredibly, there weren't many real-world demos that appeared to really use the full power of the duallie! This is good news for people whose budgets are kinder to the less expensive machines.

Best moment: Steve admitting that he had no idea what branch prediction was.
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post #186 of 190
Okay, now for hardware reactions!

I'll have to summarize...it is late.

The G5....

The system architecture and the fact that IBM haa put $3billion in the fab plant is all I really needed to hear.

This is the FIRST big jump and it will of course cost too much and THAT will be most obvious on the low end. So chill.

The rest of it is so over-engineered, that I can see the up-grade path that WILL make significant strides toward market share in about a year. By then I predict Apple will be able to actually begin consistently pricing computers below similar PC configurations.

THe FUTURE is BRIGHT The present is just the dawn.
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post #187 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by pesi
no.

32bit and 64bit versions of an app can exist in the same file.

think fat-binaries from the 68k-ppc transition.

or like today, with an app like iTunes that can work on both G3 and G4 systems just the same, but has acceleration built in for altivec.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what did Apple do to make Jaguar 10.2.7 support 8 GB RAM, which begs the question, what parts of Panther is 64 bit. Something has to be done to the Mach memory model obviously. It could also mean that that is the only thing that will be changed in Panther as well.
post #188 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by THT
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what did Apple do to make Jaguar 10.2.7 support 8 GB RAM, which begs the question, what parts of Panther is 64 bit. Something has to be done to the Mach memory model obviously. It could also mean that that is the only thing that will be changed in Panther as well.

Peeve: It doesn't "beg the question." That's a name for a logical fallacy.

All Apple would have had to do is allow the kernel to take advantage of the >32 bit addressing in the 970 (and, for that matter, in the G4...). Processes can still only see 4GB of virtual memory (because pointers are still 32 bit), but the kernel can see all of real RAM.

It's a good interim solution on the way to full 64-bit support in Panther. Really, when was the last time real RAM could eclipse virtual memory?
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post #189 of 190
my reaction:

It felt good to see the G5. I realize the bake-offs and benchmarks are cooked but it doesn't matter, because as long as Apple is in the ballpark with a real roadmap for the future this is fantastic.

Uncertainty about future chips? Gone for at least another year.

All Panther, iChatAV etc... really showed me was that Apple is pushing OSX forward, which is all it needs to do. Sadly enough the coolest thing about Panther to me is the superfast Preview for .pdf files. I loved that. The beefed-up Finder is also great.

I don't give a crap from brushed metal v. aqua. I take the pinstripes away with a theme and it doesn't matter.

The question isn't "if?" anymore, it's "when?". And "when?" is a much better question to be asking.

Just win, baby. Just win.
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post #190 of 190
Quote:
Originally posted by futuremac
anybody purchasing with the student developers discount? what courses are required to join?

I think *technically* any college student enrolled full-time can get the student ADC hardware discount if you're a student ADC member, though if you use the discount it is under the expectation that you will be making an attempt at trying to learn how write programs for the Mac.

I may use my student ADC dev discount on a G5 eventually, but not right now.
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