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Why not Water cooling?  

post #1 of 220
Thread Starter 
- 9 fans!

- computer controlled fan system

- huge heat dissipaters

- The case is still HUGE yet still lacks expandability because it needs all this room for air flow.

- ugly perforated panels for ventilation

- still noisy!

So all this begs the question... why not make a commercial, stock water cooled system for a personal computer?

Did I mention there are 9 fans!
post #2 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
- 9 fans!

- computer controlled fan system

- huge heat dissipaters

- The case is still HUGE yet still lacks expandability because it needs all this room for air flow.

- ugly perforated panels for ventilation

- still noisy!

So all this begs the question... why not make a commercial, stock water cooled system for a personal computer?

Did I mention there are 9 fans!

one question: have you ever heard a kitchen without a refrigerator? the silence is deafining... water cooled systems generate sounds too...
post #3 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
one question: have you ever heard a kitchen without a refrigerator? the silence is deafining... water cooled systems generate sounds too...

You don't need to keep your computer case at freezing temperatures like a fridge/freezer. You just need to dissipate heat. I would think a quiet pump and a nicely engineered radiator would do the trick.

It would be silent and take up much less space.

It would also be better to just have to worry about replacing one pump, rather than 9 fans of varying sizes as well.
post #4 of 220
9 fans rotating at a moderate speed will move more air than 1 fan running full speed, and will produce much less motor and air turbulance noise. Also, moving an amount of air through a large opening will result in less noise than moving the same amount of air through a small one.

Water cooling is a great way to get heat out of obscure areas (such as inside an engine), but you still have to get the heat out of the water. With an engine, you have a radiator which relies on the car moving through the air to remove the heat. When you're sitting still, a fan turns on to blow air past the radiator. In a PowerMac, you'd end up with a big radiator either on top that could count on convection currents (obviating the ability to put something on top of your computer) or on the back where you'd need the fans to draw the heat out... back where we started!

In a situation where you can efficiently move air past heat sinks, water doesn't offer much. It *is* used to some degree in laptops... there are heat pipes which draw heat away from the processor and pipe it to a heat sink near a fan and vent (at least, that's the way my Pismo cools!) The new PowerMac is engineered to draw air in the front, past components and straight out the back--no turning corners (turbulance=noise), no hot-spots, just a cheese-grator look (which I happen to like, btw)

Hope this helps...

[edit: added]P.S. For the record, if anyone could make water cooling practical and very cool, I'd put my money on Ives/Apple. Image a PowerMac with Wurlitzer juke-box bubble tubes! (hey, I'm a child of the seventies, so cut me some slack!)
Formerly gEEk

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Formerly gEEk

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post #5 of 220
Water cooling is actually pretty unusable unless you have one of two things:

Lots of water
The ability to evaporate water

Water cooling is bad because water has a high specific heat. It takes alot of heat to make water go up in temperature and so while it can absorb alot of heat, it can't absorb it very quickly.

The solution to this is two fold. First, either have lots of water, so you can always keep running cold water over whatever is hot. This doesn't work out too well for a desktop (look at my ten gallon heat sink!). The other soultion is to not have as much water, but to let the water absorb as much heat as possible and evaporate away (look- my G5 is making clouds in my office).

Examples of both of these solutions can be found in nuclear powerplants which have to get rid of something like 4000 to 6000 Megawatts of heat. Either you have a nuclear powerplant on the ocean where it can just dump all that heat into the ocean (a bottomless heat sink), or you have to evaporate alot of water in a cooling tower. This is why most all nuclear power plants are on rivers or ocean fronts.

Water cooling sounds neat, but it is actually a real mess for desktop machines.
King Felix
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post #6 of 220
Thread Starter 
You are comparing cooling your desktop pc to cooling a nuclear reactor? lol

And someone else is comparing it to freezing your icecream in your fridge?

A bit dramatic don't you think?

Water cooling is more efficient than aircooling. Thats why our cars are watercooled. It is that simple. Water cooling is superior.

Now... leaking water in your computer would not be a good thing. This may be enough of a reason to stop this system dead in its tracks. I would think it possible in this day and age to make it work though. It would also make the G5 about half the size and near silent.

Water cooling is a very popular thing with personal computers now. People are making kits that seem to work great, and they are essentially making them in their garages. I would think apples engineers could do some really incredible things with it... hence this thread. I don't understand why they didn't do it. I think it was just fear of liabilty, some moron breaking one of the fluid lines and ruining their computer, or worse.
post #7 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
[edit: added]P.S. For the record, if anyone could make water cooling practical and very cool, I'd put my money on Ives/Apple. Image a PowerMac with Wurlitzer juke-box bubble tubes! (hey, I'm a child of the seventies, so cut me some slack!)

I totally agree! This was my point. You know Apple will most likely be the first manufacturer to do it. Which is why it upsets me that we'll probably have to wait a few years(at least) to get it now.
post #8 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
Water cooling is superior.

It depends on the application. In a car, yes.
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post #9 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
It depends on the application. In a car, yes.

Are you saying that watercooling isn't superior to air cooling with computers?
post #10 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
Are you saying that watercooling isn't superior to air cooling with computers?

I think with the drawbacks to a water cooled system inside a computer, it might not be superior to an air cooled system. At least not at an affordable pricepoint.

We also have to take into consideration the migration to the 90nm process. Implementing a water cooled system right now isn't useful if the next generation G5 doesn't need it. It would be a wasted expense and R&D for just one generation of machines.

The next gen chips should be faster and cooler. I don't know what IBM's roadmap is, but like with MOTO, cool chips are very important to IBM and their markets. That might negate the necessity for a water cooled system for a long time.
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post #11 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
We also have to take into consideration the migration to the 90nm process. Implementing a water cooled system right now isn't useful if the next generation G5 doesn't need it.

Computers will continue to get hotter and hotter and smaller and smaller. Heat is just going to continue to grow as a problem. Why not start now rather than using 9 fans and and a giant case? If heat wasn't projected to be a problem they would have created "the wind tunnel". It sounds like a lot of energy went into that and in the wrong direction, imo.

[I have learned one thing in this thread at least... it is much easier to say the reasons something won't work than to figure out how it can be made to work. lol That is true through out history though isn't it. Change doesn't come easily.]
post #12 of 220
ever heard a sports car at a stoplight? that really, really loud whirring noise would be the fans pushing tons of air over the radiator.

if your car isn't moving, water cooling sucks.

it's quieter than low quality air cooling, and does a better job than air at transferring heat, but has some real drawbacks. (weight, leakage, replacement of water, mineral deposits)

we'll see though.
post #13 of 220
Perhaps we should be discussing 'liquid cooling' instead of 'water cooling'. Water is rarely used in modern, closed circuit cooling systems. Also, since we're talking about a miniscule volume of liquid, material cost isn't an issue. Engineers would be free to choose just about any liquid they deem suitable when designing for apple's scale of production.

The ideal liquid should not only have a high specific heat but also should quickly absorb and dissipate thermal energy. It would be similar to an automobile's coolant but wouldn't need to have such a low freezing point.

Liquid cooling is very possible and not even that expensive to engineer or manufacture. Yet it isn't the norm simply because forced air-cooling satisfies nearly everyone. The only drawback is sound pollution. Most people, when given the choice, choose a fast computer over a quiet computer.

Thus, a computer manufacturer has little to gain by going to liquid cooling. Can you imagine the bad press from an imperfect first generation design and a few leaky machines?

Fans are simply too cheap and effective. Apple designs already win awards and attract design oriented consumers... liquid cooling just wouldnt be more profitable. (for now)
post #14 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
Are you saying that watercooling isn't superior to air cooling with computers?

Remember that nothing (water or otherwise) can remove heat, only *move* it. The ultimate goal of any cooling system is to move heat from one place (the components inside the case) to a place where you don't mind it being (the outside air). The purpose of liquid cooling is to gather up heat from various obscure places and bring it to one spot: a radiator. At that point, the heat is transferred to the outside air. The air must be moving to pull away any significant amount of heat from the radiator, so you have to use a fan, or, in the case of a car, move the radiator through the air. The liquid-filled heat pipe in my Pismo doesn't remove heat; it just moves it to a place where the fan can get at it.

The point is that no matter where you move the heat inside the computer's case, you still have to get it into the outside air. So, you're left with the same problem--a liquid-cooled system becomes an air-cooled system in the end.

The reason liquid cooling makes sense in a car is that it is not easy to channel moving air to all of the various internal parts of an engine that need cooling. liquid can be piped here and there, and ultimately to the radiator--which still requires moving air to dissipate the heat that convection or radiation can't deal with. In the case of a computer in a big rectangular case, it is a simple matter to channel air across all of the components--particularly when done the way Ives did it with the G5: in the front, across the components and straight out the back. Get's the job done quickly, easily, quietly (now, anyway) and *cheaply*.
Formerly gEEk

The [United States] Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself. --Ben Franklin
Formerly gEEk

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post #15 of 220
Thread Starter 
You guys need to do some research on water cooled computers. This is much more doable than you realize.

Quote:
Get's the job done quickly, easily, quietly (now, anyway) and *cheaply*

Quite the opposite really. Least of all compactly, though. This case is larger than the G4 and has less room for expandability.
post #16 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
And someone else is comparing it to freezing your icecream in your fridge?

Well, when Tom's Hardware overclocked a PIV to 4.x GHz, the cooling they used was so efficient (a water cooling system with a compressor as heat dissipator if I remember well) that, if they got it running at full speed while the computer was off it would get the case well below 0°C. That's about the same result as putting the computer in a freezer.

EDIT: found the article in question. Citation: "In the sixth THG Video, we demonstrate the speed of our 4.1 GHz PC system, as well as the effects of extreme cooling as low as minus 52 degrees Celsius." Article here.

-52 °C is -61.6 °F. There's not a single freezer that can achieve this. The next step in cooling, after such a compressor, is liquid N2.
post #17 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Perhaps we should be discussing 'liquid cooling' instead of 'water cooling'. Water is rarely used in modern, closed circuit cooling systems.

While water might not be used, the term "water cooling" is frequently used. I think you need to do some research on the state-of-the-art of water cooled personal computers.
post #18 of 220
I dont think any manifacturer will sell a personal computer WITH watercooling at the moment.

But all these kits are self install and come with a huge disclaimer saying that the only person responsible for damage caused by watercooling is the owner.

That asside, you can buy kits, and they are very good - Many of my PC gamer friends have watercooling because its quiet and effective. They have AMD's running at 28 degrees.

I even read an article about a dissabled web designer - he liked his computer a lot! - got a scuba tank and burried it in the garden, you get to about 6 - 10 foot down and the ground is always cool, about 10 degrees I think.

He then piped the water up to his office, through the wall and into the PC.
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post #19 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
I think you need to do some research on the state-of-the-art of water cooled personal computers.

How many dbs does a typical water cooled computer create?
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post #20 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
But all these kits are self install and come with a huge disclaimer saying that the only person responsible for damage caused by watercooling is the owner.

This I don't understand though. Our autos have tons of electronics in them and gasoline and water and coolant and oil.

Quote:
That asside, you can buy kits, and they are very good - Many of my PC gamer friends have watercooling because its quiet and effective. They have AMD's running at 28 degrees.

Have you heard of a kit for any mac before?

Quote:
I even read an article about a dissabled web designer - he liked his computer a lot! - got a scuba tank and burried it in the garden, you get to about 6 - 10 foot down and the ground is always cool, about 10 degrees I think.

This I don't understand. The temp underground is stable but not very cold. I think it is a pretty steady 60 degrees F maybe. Not sure. I know it's not 10 though. Unless he is in the artic.

Running some hose all the way outside would probably be enough to cool your water sufficiently though.
post #21 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
How many dbs does a typical water cooled computer create?


Measuring DB's is a difficult thing for someone to do out of your garage. The positioning of the noise level equipment, it isn't an easy thing to guage. But these computers run near silent and are usually overclocking, at least to some degree.

Overclocking isn't something I am particularly looking for. I am more interested in a small computer, zero dust entering the case(the G5 is ridiculous in this way), and a quiet noise level.
post #22 of 220
IMHO : Water + Aluminium + Electricity =
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post #23 of 220
ya lets plug the new computer up to the hose and let lightning strike it!
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post #24 of 220
iSegway, the reason for so many fans isn't due to high CPU temperatures, it's for low noise. It's quieter to run many fans slowley than to run a few fans quickly. The cooling system in the new Powermacs was designed with low-noise as a primary goal. I don't know how loud a liquid cooling system would be, but with a compressor and fans it might not be any quieter than the current Powermacs.

Then there is the issue of cost and reliability, both of which are affected by the complexity of liquid cooling systems. Fans are cheap and very reliable. Liquid cooling (for computers) costs more, and its reliability is far lower.

If Apple can achieve their design goals for noise and cooling capacity by using fans, there's little incentive to use a more complex and expensive solution.
post #25 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac Force


-52 °C is -61.6 °F. There's not a single freezer that can achieve this. The next step in cooling, after such a compressor, is liquid N2.

Actually that's not true. I work in biomedical research, and we use freezers that achieve temperatures as low as -120? C. Dual compressors are used for -80? C, and quad compressors get down to around -120? C. -80? C freezers are very common, the other's less so because of cost and reliability. Liquid N2 is typically used for anything below -80? C in most labs.



I'd bet that with liquid N2 cooling, Apple could clock the G5 high enough to shut up the x86 whiners.
post #26 of 220
Maintenance, corrosion, size, cost, etc.
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post #27 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
Are you saying that watercooling isn't superior to air cooling with computers?

Well, duh.

Who wants to spring a leak? The major problem with air cooling is the noise, but 9 computer controlled fans with some amazing ventilation make this a non issue. Each of the 4 compartments within the tower can be independently cooled, meaning that the fans will be on as little as possible and turn as slowly as possible. Apple heard the complaints about the wind tunnel g4's, and I think they've addressed it.
post #28 of 220
Thread Starter 
There is more empty space than not in that G5 enclosure. The G5 is bigger than the G4 and has no expandability.

Is it too much to ask to have a case that doesn't fill with dust?

I am going to laugh at all you nay sayers in a few years when water cooling becomes standard.

If I am wrong none of us will be laughing because our computers will will be as large as closets and be almost empty with a screen door type enclosure.



By the way... you are saying that it is more difficult/dangerous/expensive to put a water cooling system in a computer than it is to do this - link another link
post #29 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac Force
-52 °C is -61.6 °F. There's not a single freezer that can achieve this. The next step in cooling, after such a compressor, is liquid N2.

Add dry ice to rubbing alcohol. Let the dry ice cool down the alcohol. As the dry ice sublimes it will make the rubbing alcohol look like sprite, but whatever you do, don't touch the alcohol- you will loose a part of your body. This is a decent intermediate step between a compressor and Liquid N2. Best of all, it doesn't place the same heat (cold) stresses on metal that LN2 can.

My previous comparison to nuclear energy isn't all that strange. The energy density of chips is thought to surpass the energy density of nuclear reactors unless Intel gets its act together with respect to heat. It is a shame that we can't convert infrared radiation directly into electrical energy (yet). Otherwise, you could get some power out of your CPU usage.

Water cooling only works in a closed system when you are using the water to move the heat from the hot thing to a radiator. Water doesn't give up its heat very easily, so you need a large radiator with lots of surface area. If you used a chemical other than water (with a lower specific heat), then you would need a smaller radiator. Some nuclear reactors use liquid sodium instead of water because once liquid, it very quickly absorbs heat. The reason why nuclear reactors do not have closed heat radiators is that there is no good way to dissipate 6000 Megawatts of heat through a radiator- You would need a radiator with many square miles of surface area. The soultion is to just evaporate the water and have an open system where you need more water. Sorry for the nuclear power lesson.
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post #30 of 220
Or we could use Ammonia and keep a hazmat team at everyone's houses. Great for tranferring heat, nasty stuff in a leak.

:-)
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post #31 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
By the way... you are saying that it is more difficult/dangerous/expensive to put a water cooling system in a computer than it is to do this - link another link

Actually, yes. Fuel cells are self-contained and isolated from the rest of the laptop. With water-cooled systems, you're placing the water container (pipes, tubes, whatever) directly against the electronics to be cooled, or at least exposed in the same section of the casing. And they can't be sealed tight (like a fuel cell) because that'll degrade their ability to absorb heat.

Apples and Oranges.
post #32 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kesh
With water-cooled systems, you're placing the water container (pipes, tubes, whatever) directly against the electronics to be cooled, or at least exposed in the same section of the casing.

Apples and Oranges.

Isolated, hunh. Interesting. Yea, my design involved just running the water over the unprotected circuitboard.

Funny how fuel systems can be *totally* isolated but not water. Strange.

Apples and oranges... yeah... ok. lol

So let me get this straight. You are telling me that in your opinion there will never be a mass production water cooled personal computer(desktop that is, since there have already been laptops that incorperate water cooling.)?

If there will be be a mass production water cooled computer someday what kind of technological advancement will be necessary?
post #33 of 220
Thread Starter 
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/20...0719015488.htm

[quote]NEWS
Hitachi has begun to sell its new water-cooled notebook computer in Japan. The Flora 270W Silent Mode, as it is called, sports a 1.8GHz mobile Pentium 4, 128 MB RAM, 20 GBhHard drive, and a 15-inch TFT screen. The cost of the machine is a mere 341,000 yen (US$2,941).

Interestingly, the notebook uses a patented Hitachi water-cooling system. Flexible tubing is placed over the chips in the machine and water is pumped through them, taking the heat with it. The tubes then run the water into a tank on the back of the TFT screen that is visible and meant to be aesthetically pleasing. Hitachi says that the tank has been made visible just to differentiate the notebooks from other machines, and that it could easily be hidden.

In terms of cooling performance it is on equal terms with air-cooling, but it has the added advantage of being a much quieter solution. Reliability-wise, the solution lasts more than 5 years, the tubing can circulate the solution 20,000 times, and the pump works for more than 44,000 hours. Hitachi offers a three-year guarantee with the machine.

Hitachi started taking orders on Wednesday and can supply to corporate users outside of Japan, although it is undecided into which consumer markets the notebook will be released. Hitachi is also in talks with companies who want to use the system in servers and plasma display devices. As well, Hitachi is pushing for the cooling technology to become an industry standard.[quote]





post #34 of 220
The specs on that notebook don't exactly make it a nightmare to cool. (Compare the iBook, which spends most of its time running fanless.) The PowerMac has a lot more work to do. Whatever liquid draws off the heat from the CPUs would have to get rid of it fast, because those suckers are hot (97W apiece, they say), and that probably means a big radiator (just like they have now) and fans to keep it cool (just like they have now). The difference would be that with air cooling, Apple can use lots of fans running slowly to cool the components; with water cooling they'd have to have a couple of fans frantically cooling a specific part (the radiator), which would make them louder.

The issue is not as simple as "water cooling is better" or "water cooling is worse." You have to look at the problem, and part of the problem, as Fawkes pointed out, is that water cooling is air cooling. The water just moves the problem around, so the engineering question is whether there's any advantage to doing that. Obviously, what works for a modestly spec'd notebook (for $3K?!) doesn't necessarily work for a high-end tower. Perhaps the Hitachi solution is better for that notebook, and perhaps it's just gimmicky (again, the iBook manages with smart passive cooling and a backup fan). The cooling solution doesn't last as long as a good fan would, or an entirely passive cooling solution.

As an aside, the mention of liquid sodium as a coolant reminded me of when the Superphenix breeder reactor in France had a coolant leak, not quite 20 years ago. It used (and probably still uses) liquid sodium, so the leak turned one room in the plant into a giant, perpetual fireball. Since the reactor's a breeder (self-fueling) it couldn't be shut down quickly or easily, and since the leak was behind a big fireball they couldn't plug it easily. Now there is an engineering challenge! (The last I heard they were pumping sodium in as fast as it was leaking out, but I can't imagine that was the permanent solution.)
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post #35 of 220
if Apple came up with a way to water cool these towers, people would bitch about the imminent price markup.
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post #36 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
The difference would be that with air cooling, Apple can use lots of fans running slowly to cool the components; with water cooling they'd have to have a couple of fans frantically cooling a specific part (the radiator), which would make them louder.

No you wouldn't. This is absolutely wrong.


Quote:
The issue is not as simple as "water cooling is better" or "water cooling is worse." You have to look at the problem, and part of the problem, as Fawkes pointed out, is that water cooling is air cooling.

No! Water cooling is not air cooling. Air cooling is air cooling. Water cooled systems can be made near silent while overclocking and still maintaining a modest form factor, with expandability even..

Quote:
The water just moves the problem around, so the engineering question is whether there's any advantage to doing that.

There are many advantages.

Quote:
Obviously, what works for a modestly spec'd notebook (for $3K?!) doesn't necessarily work for a high-end tower.

Why is that?

Quote:
Perhaps the Hitachi solution is better for that notebook, and perhaps it's just gimmicky (again, the iBook manages with smart passive cooling and a backup fan).

And perhaps it isn't. Considering that many people use it on desktops. Overclock with it. And it is still near silent.

Quote:
The cooling solution doesn't last as long as a good fan would, or an entirely passive cooling solution.

And how do you know this? And even if it did: So? Maybe a *good* water cooled system would last longer than a good fan.

Quote:
if Apple came up with a way to water cool these towers, people would bitch about the imminent price markup.

How much would the price mark-up be?
post #37 of 220
a tubular cooling sysytem isn't currently plausible in a tower becuase they are made for people to be inside and tinker with. And with people in there messing around, these systems are going to get damaged. Not to mention with all those tubes running all over the place it'd be as big a mess as the ribbons that were finally done away with.

It's easier to implement within a notebook because people aren't in there changing the configuration, and thus the level and areas of cooling will remain consistant. Whereas inside the tower as people expanded the effectiveness of the cooling zones may be compromised.
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I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #38 of 220
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
a tubular cooling sysytem isn't currently plausible in a tower becuase they are made for people to be inside and tinker with. And with people in there messing around, these systems are going to get damaged. Not to mention with all those tubes running all over the place it'd be as big a mess as the ribbons that were finally done away with.

why can't a water cooled system be made to allow modification?

Quote:
It's easier to implement within a notebook because people aren't in there changing the configuration, and thus the level and areas of cooling will remain consistant. Whereas inside the tower as people expanded the effectiveness of the cooling zones may be compromised.

Yeah, you might be right. Water cooling might never be used in a mass market desktop computer. Is that your guess?
post #39 of 220
Quote:
Originally posted by iSegway
why can't a water cooled system be made to allow modification?

Because let's face it, if Joe Blow tries to modify his cooling system and anything went wrong, you'll have liquid all over the internals of your computer, obviously laying waste to any warranty the owner may have possessed. And with customizable cooling configurations, the person making said customizations would need to things about thermal dynamics and other such areas of education that most people are not privied to. Just saying "this area is hotter so I'll run more pipe to it" is not an acceptable idea.


Quote:
Yeah, you might be right. Water cooling might never be used in a mass market desktop computer. Is that your guess?

Did I say that? Eventually, I'm certain this will happen. But I guarantee you no such technology will be available in a form that the average or even above average end consumer can arbitrarily reconfigure. This is very complex technology and not meant to be played with.

I'm trying to think of an example of expensive consumer products that are liquid cooled and allow the consumer to customize the cooling configuration. I'm not saying there aren't any, but I can't come up with one. Does anyone else know of any?
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I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
post #40 of 220
I'd also like to add that the hotter you make a machine run through upgrades, the faster you'll need to cool the liquid running through this machine. These systems are designed to cool the liquid down to a predetermined temperature in a predetermined amount of time. Once the machine becomes hotter, the liquid isn't cooled fast enough, and you have unstoppable heat buildup. Now you are asking the user to manually adjust the cooling rate and/or distribution of the coolant itself, and that's something virtually nobaody is qualified to do.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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