New PowerBooks tomorrow. - Page 12  

Titanium effectively blocks AirPort signals. Aluminum, on the other hand, makes an effective antenna. It's not an accident that the aluminum 'Books suddenly got reception as good as the iBook's.


Casting and machining titanium are prohibitive, which is why Apple doesn't do either. The cases for the TiBook are stamped from sheets.

Well, keep in mind, it is very important how the mass is distributed. A sphere has a lower critical mass than a laptop case. Plus a lot of that weight comes from things other than the case. They might be able to keep it under critical mass.

Shetline, you might get to the stars a lot quicker that way!

Looks like there won't be any new PBs for a while and maybe not for another 7 weeks. Mid-September, according to this latest bit from MacBoodle (edited for English):

This is very disappointing. MOSR has more about PBs today, saying backlighting for KBs across the board, which is nice.

There's actually not much in the way of "insider" information there. It's publicly known that Mot punted the 7457 back from the beginning of this year, and also that it's currently shipping in test motherboards, slated for general release in Q4.

Late spring is primo school shopping season, which is why the iBook was introduced, and subsequently updated, in late spring.

It's pretty obvious that the 7455 isn't going anywhere further as a CPU, so Apple has either the 7457 or the 970 to go to. The '57 is an obvious, drop-in-and-go choice, and the 970 is a complete cipher - but it's not outside the realm of possibility that the crucial bits of a 970-based board will need to be fabbed on 90nm to work in a PowerBook. All we know is that IBM hopes to move to 90nm "quickly," whatever that means. (Note to Gobi fans: There will be no G3 with SIMD for a good while yet.)

My bet is that Apple had intended to announce the PowerBooks at MWSF, and stagger the shipping out as Mot ramped up production of the 7457. Instead, they have to wait 9 months or so, which neatly coincides with the usual time between PowerBook updates anyway.

So, basically, without any recourse to "rumors" or what-have-you, it's pretty clear that a PowerBook refresh is due for this fall, powered by the MPC7457. The 970 is a wild card, because we simply don't have enough information about it.

My post wasn't clear. My point was that the titanium was not the cause for the issues that the powerbook had with airport range and heat. Nor is aluminum the solution. The Powerbook will probably be aluminum next go round. But it will be for cost reasons. Titanium is sexy and makes a bold design statement. But at the gauges that those stampings are made at, they are prone to denting. I think what pscates was trying to say, was that we don't know what is gonna happen. We have gotten zero solid info from the pipeline to tell us one way or the other. The safe money is on making the whole line aluminum. But if they didn't, the world would not end for me.

You can bet your butt they will

Guess that's true.

Is anyone fabbing any chips at .09µ? Seems like it's such a new process that it'd be really hard to make anything before March which is what I'd consider the soonest we can expect a PBG5.

The sooner Apple can shed itself of Scum-a-rola, the better.

I did not read the whole thread so maybe someone else has already mentioned it. Motorola has all product specifications of the 7457 on its site. 1,3 GHZ with 10 watts, sounds like the interim powerbook to me

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps...018rH3bTdG8653

Found this link at MacRumors to a MacBidouille article about Motorola's 7457 yields: http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu....2003-07-24#256

It seems yields are pitiful and that's why the new PBs are delayed. It sucks!

I'm not that up on it. At Semicon West last week I heard discussions that the dimensions of some production chips are now about 60nm. These are the sizes of some features of the chips. I don't know how they characterize the wafer process as a whole.

MPC7457EC.pdf:http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32bi.../MPC7457EC.pdf

Well it might seem that motorola has dissapointed us again...
867Mhz, 1.0 Ghz, 1.3Ghz ... on a 167Mhz Bus

But I am optimistic, lower power requirements on a .13 process, and double the L2 cache will make a decent laptop chip.

Also remember that the 7455 is not listed to go up to 1.4Ghz, only 1Ghz... Faster chips than expected could come.

Well I just ordered a 1 Gzh 15" PB. I think it is a pretty good hedge since I get the EDU discount.

If the new PB's come out next Tuesday, my computer won't have shipped yet so it will be upgraded to the new model.

But if its going to be another month or so I'll have a computer when I enter college, instead of a computer on back order due to high demand.

Also it seems likely that Apple will raise the prices of the new PBs back up to the old level when the new models comes out.

1 Gzh with L3 cache seems plenty fast. The only thing lacking is Airport reception and bluetooth.

I, for one, don't think this is true. The Powerbooks are now lagging behind their Wintel counterparts in clock speed, actual speed and battery life. This will not change until the .09 G5s and/or fuel cell batteries. Price cuts are in order for the next round of 7457 'Books.

Based on what inside information?

there is another link to a PDF from motorola about the 7457
e-www.motorola.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MPC7457EC.pdf

interesting thing. in table 7 the power use characteristics are not much different to the other chips:
867 MHz 1.0 GHz 1.3 GHz
Full-Power Mode
Typical 14.8 15.8 18.7
Maximum 21.0 22.0 26.0

another interesting thing, in section 1.4 it says the transistor count is 58 million.

19W at 1.3GHz and 58 million transistors. both these things sound more like a 970 characteristics.

Some of the features on the 970 are even smaller than 60nm, but it's still fabbed on a 130nm process.

Motorola used to play games with using one of the smaller features on the G4 (the gates?) to measure process size so they always looked like they were ahead of everyone.

As far as I know, there's no volume production at 90nm yet. That's for late this year / early next year. Intel expects to be there first, IBM will probably be hard on Intel's heels, and if Crolles works out Motorola and its European partners will not be long after.

Agree, except for the fuel cell. Apple's marvelous PB's were/are fantastic except for their July 03 performance. 1GHz! please!. Im willing to buy a G4 @ 1.33, but would consider the 17" if it gets 2x7457's. Oh, and Apple never reduces prices when they update, well get better specs instead.

They have reduced prices with PowerBook revisions in the past. Just ask anyone who had just purchased a new 800MHz TiBook a week before it was speed bumped. They're likely still VERY upset about it.

That's a fairly hefty 'hedge'.. all one has to do is remember back last year to the $1000+ price drops overnight... And price rises? Oh i don't think so... Just check out the price points on the G5's - exactly the same as the G4's.. (when you un-Superdrive the bottom two)

I sure hope your gamble pays off, but i got a feeling it aint gunna..

Titanium is used for rf shielding as is aluminum and copper.
An antenna has to a conduct electrons and titanium does that nicely, aluminum is a better conductor (silver is the best). Both cases are at ground potential. The key is to configure the antenna in such a way as to create a ground plane for the rf energy being transmitted. I haven't measured it (but I will, now that you got me thinking about it) but I would imagine the the swr (standing wave ratio-a measure of antenna's effectiveness) is better on the AL because if its placement.


True, they are stamped I didn't suggest otherwise. The my point was that titanium is expensive to deal with. Stampings not withstanding, the material costs a great deal more than aluminum. Titanium is not lighter (pound for pound) than aluminum but it is stronger this allows it to be used in smaller dimensions for the same strength.

Oh yeah one more thing......Mac Baudelaire

Haha I don't think anything is lighter than anything else pound for pound.

When the 667/800 (DVI) line replaced the 550/667 (VGA), the prices increased from $2,199 and $2,999 to $2,499 and $3,199. I think there's about a 50-50 chance of prices either staying where they are or going up slightly. I don't think they'll go any lower; Apple knows there is a pent-up demand for this model and will price them accordingly.

And my point was that some ways are far more expensive than others. The stamped Ti cases are definitely more expensive than the aluminum ones, but you're looking at the difference between a slight premium for stamping and outrageous expense for casting (which requires machining as well).


How can one material be lighter than another pound for pound? I assume you meant by volume?

i have a neice that we still tease about this...we asked her, "now think carefully about this. what is lighter, a ton of lead or a ton of feathers"...she answered back quite quickly and in her full west virginia accent: "duh, a ton of feathers!"

to this day the answer to any stupid question is "duh, a ton of feathers"

g


ps...new powerbooks tomorrow?? really?? just keeping on subject

Sometimes the brian pan gets low on oil.... When I was writing that phrase it seemed to make sense.... honest it did.
What I meant to say was......
kilogram for kilogram

Kaspar has something on the PBs on the main page: AppleInsider Most of this stuff is what we've seen posted elsewhere so Kaspar's post amounts to a nice compilation and synthesis of several tidbits.

It'll sure be nice to get beyond depending on Motorola for chips.

"Steve Jobs, is said to be so irate over the issue, he often uses profanity when expressing his displeasure with the semi-conductor sector of Motorola."

I'm envisioning...

Except that it is common knowledge by now that the 7457 will have a 167 Mhz bus, not a 200 Mhz bus.

Why, because of Mot's recent PDF? A few months ago, it was common knowledge that the 7457 was limited to a 200 MHz FSB, then about a month ago Mot's site stated the 7457 would use a 133 MHz bus, and now, most recently, mentioned 167 MHz. Ah, but in that same PDF, there was mention of a 200 MHz L3 bus. Maybe that means the 7457 can use 2MB DDR400 SRAM.

What Mot publishes isn't necessarily what it'll ship to OEMs.

True, Motorola cannot be trusted. Still, I'm going to focus on 167Mhz and not get my hopes up!

According to the latest Appleinsider news, Motorola sucks. Apple was hoping to release the Powerbook update at WWDC, then pushed it back to MacWorld NY and still hasn't seen enough supply of the new chips to release the product.

Steve's got to be peeved.

But reading a bit further into it, if Apple generally updates their products every six months or so, and they hoped to have updated at WWDC and then later at MacWorld in July... to me that would mean they are hoping on another update in January at the latest (MWSF). Could that mean that the G5 still might ship in January (why hold it back if it's ready to go?).

re: Appleinsider rumors... remember what I said in the "What year of the laptop?" thread:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Apple will announce Powerbook G5 machines in September, ship in October.

Why, because in 2002 when Apple asked Motorola when 1.3 GHz 7457 chips would be available in at least 50k CPUs per month quantities, hoping for an April 2003 answer, Motorola came back with a Q4 2003 answer. Hugely disappointed, Apple decided to go on a crash program to put the PPC 970 into Powerbooks and eat a 3 to 5 month delay in their Powerbook update cycle. Ok, I made the preceding up, but totally realistic, no?

Hehe. Now if only they went on a crash program to put the 970 into a Powerbook...

Been thinking about this as much as anybody. Steve's gotta be peeved at something else: Not only has Apple lost months of sales, but now they're expected to load Panther in these Pbooks - a whole lot of lost upgrade sales. Also, as has been mentioned, now the G5 PB seems within reach, even I'm thinking about waiting a little longer. Heck, 2-3 years from now there's likely to be lots of tasty stuff that won't run on a lowly 32-bit processor\

Could it be that you are right? Could it be that Jack Campbell and MacWhispers is right too? Think about it for a second. Apple has had to know that the 7457 was producing poor yields months and months ago. Since Apple buys tons of G4s, I'm sure they have more than their fare share of updates from Motorola on the progress of the 7457. Given that Steve is now using profanity to vent about the 7457, it could lend validation of Jack Campbell's story. Follow me here for a sec:

1. We know that Apple needs a newer, cooler G4 that consumes less power for the next laptop because the 7455 has reached its tolerable limit in a portable at 1 GHz.

2. Sometime in the early part of 2003, after MWSF, Apple learns through their contacts at Moto that the 7457 is producing poor yields. Weeks pass, and it still appears that the yields issue is still plaguing the production of the 7457 and its release date is slipping. Steve is gnashing his teeth in absolute disgust. He asks engineers to do what they can to work an IBM 970 processor into the PowerBook, knowing it's hot and power hungry. He's doing this just as a worst case plan B.


3. The PowerBook G5 has been engineered, motherboards complete, but the current chip is too hot. Advanced samples of the 970+ work perfectly but won't be ready for quite some time. They put the PowerBook G5 on hold; wait for news from Moto.

4. Memorial Day is near and Moto's problems persist. The planned revamp of the PowerBook line at WWDC in June is unlikely because of issues with the 7457. Steve is getting more and more pissed. Moto's problems throw into jeopardy of an iMac update too. Steve is like "screw it," we've got to move on. More plan B stuff.


4. WWDC is close. G5 Power Mac is ready and shines. No new PowerBooks. Pushed back until July because they wait for Moto. Moto is saying that they should be ready for August. Apple decides to can a Stevenote at MacWorld Creative because they cannot rely on Moto's ability to be accurate and on-time. Apple can't be sure that shipping 7457s will be in quantity for the new PowerBooks, so why bother announce and risk delays?

5. Apple knows from on-going work with IBM that the G5s will be produced and ready in late August. They can depend on IBM. They announce the G5 at WWDC.

6. MacWorld Creative comes and goes. Problems with yields persist at Moto with the 7457.


7. Here we are today. Waiting for Motorola.

Two to three years is a long life for a laptop. I try to upgrade roughly every two years.

We should applaud your summary, very nice. so mabe 50/50 that a pb 970 will be available in the months to come, If jobs is cussing moto, most ceo would have a parallel track with option b to execute. remember it's a hot market, timing is everything we are coming into back to school/university and christmas. if no new product going into these seasons without competitive product, people may have to reverse-switch as has been discussed by others. I am apple loyal since 1984 with the mac plus, i've only had to own a windoz dell laptop because of proprietary software, but as we move to broadband and webbased product i'll will sell this dell and by another apple. I'm planning on getting my wife an iPod, and laptop. do you have any idea if the superdrive will be upgraded as well????