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PowerMacs updated in late January - Page 2

post #41 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
[QB]Don't get your hopes up. I have been told no Power Mac update till April....[QB]<hr></blockquote>

Well, that could possibly fit with news that the 970 will start volume production in March. Anounce in April, maybe ship one before the end of the month, then ramp up for the next couple of months (as has been done before).

[quote]Originally posted by gfeier:
[QB]
The first commandment of ALL religions is to provide a comfortable living for the priesthood.
[QB]<hr></blockquote>

What in the heck are you basing that statement on??? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> Or is it just a joke?
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post #42 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by O and A:
<strong>

Keyword:MPC8540

Thats not a g4 and don't even suggests that its the g5

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know. I was just pointing out that Motorola has an intergrated memory controller on a chip.
post #43 of 132
[quote]
<strong>

The people are so happy now, their heads are caving in.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

What in the heck are you basing that statement on??? Or is it just a joke? hehe

They start production in march yes sure but no way in hell are they getting in macs by april.
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post #44 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>
What in the heck are you basing that statement on??? Or is it just a joke?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Must be a joke since I know of at least one religion whose main priority is to supply the priesthood with children and protect them afterwards.
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post #45 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by gfeier:
<strong>

Count on dual 1GHz, 1.25GHz and 1.43 GHz in the current enclosures without true DDR.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think so. They would drop the 1ghz and the 1.25ghz would be the low end. If they can get up to 1.4ghz, they can get a 1.3ghz. The highend usually becomes the low end.
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post #46 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>

I don't think so. They would drop the 1ghz and the 1.25ghz would be the low end. If they can get up to 1.4ghz, they can get a 1.3ghz. The highend usually becomes the low end.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Besides keeping the 1 ghz (although it would be nice, at a lower price point) would kind of exclude the iMac/eMac getting a 1ghz CPU, or? If that were the case the 1ghz machines would get cheaper for Apple to make though, since it would be the iMac, PowerBook and PowerMacs using the same chip, which means higher volumes and cheaper per CPU price to Apple.
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post #47 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by xype:
<strong>

Besides keeping the 1 ghz (although it would be nice, at a lower price point) would kind of exclude the iMac/eMac getting a 1ghz CPU, or? If that were the case the 1ghz machines would get cheaper for Apple to make though, since it would be the iMac, PowerBook and PowerMacs using the same chip, which means higher volumes and cheaper per CPU price to Apple.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea, we're over the 1ghz barrior so let's be over it by following the same pattern and dropping the 1ghz as the low end. The iMac/eMac and iBook will get it next. The desktops need to appear to be the fastest and thus justify their price tag.
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post #48 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by O and A:
<strong>
What in the heck are you basing that statement on??? Or is it just a joke? hehe
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was just wondering if he believed that, or if it was just a jab. Just curious is all.

Oh, and my sig is a line from TMBG, but maybe you knew that :cool:

[quote]
<strong>
They start production in march yes sure but no way in hell are they getting in macs by april.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why not? Surely Apple's had samples to design around for quite a while now. I think it is possible for the 970 to be in a privately owned mac by the end of April. I don't, for the record, believe that they will be widely available, however. Didn't Apple do this kind of thing with the iMac2? Thought they sent out a handful of machines around 11PM on the last day of the month so that Steve could stay true to his word of 'shipping in such-and-such month'.

Whatever. I just desperately need to upgrade from my 7.5 year old 7500, so I'm really hopeful. (I really want to start using X.)
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post #49 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
<strong>Don't get your hopes up. I have been told no Power Mac update till April....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bodhi, shirley they will at least get airport extweeemme and firewire 2 berfore April. I mean, some people have to upgrade between now and then, at least Apple should throw them a bone( even if it has no marrow in it).
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post #50 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>


Originally posted by gfeier:

The first commandment of ALL religions is to provide a comfortable living for the priesthood.


What in the heck are you basing that statement on??? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> Or is it just a joke?</strong><hr></blockquote>

More than 40 years of studying history. Try it some time.
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post #51 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by gfeier:
<strong>
More than 40 years of studying history. Try it some time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow, 40 years of studying, and you've never read this?

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment."

Whether people follow it is another matter entirely.

Sorry to bring this thread OT, I'll stop now.

Will the PM be updated before April? My gut still says yes, even though my sources say no. I am begining to think that my sources are limited in the same way as the Mot website doesn't list 7455s over 1GHz, but clearly they do exist.

[ 01-10-2003: Message edited by: Transcendental Octothorpe ]</p>
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post #52 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>The PowerPC 620 wasn't a "design failure" because of the 32-bit / 64-bit thing, it had problems because it was pushing the envelop of what was possible at the time. And it did ship eventually, and it did work. It was expensive, didn't significantly outperform the 604e, and didn't attract a customer base.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wouldn't you consider it a design failure if it didn't out-produce a 604e?
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post #53 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>
Why not? Surely Apple's had samples to design around for quite a while now. I think it is possible for the 970 to be in a privately owned mac by the end of April. I don't, for the record, believe that they will be widely available, however.</strong><hr></blockquote>

More than likely Apple will wait for full production, I believe, and I'm guessing now that Apple is selling around 250,000 to 300,000 PowerMacs per quarter. I could see that number tripling easy, so around 1,000,000 per quarter. I'm sure that whatever sample parts IBM would be giving Apple are not enough to scratch this number. Not to mention that IBM probably has sent Apple a few hundred or a few thousand chips for evaluation. They were probably given for free, the big money is in the contract. IBM would have real issues with Apple putting any of these evaluation chips in a production model, which would be covered in a NDA between IBM and Apple. It would also be improper for Apple to sell anything given to them in good faith for evaluation purposes.
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post #54 of 132
I don't think TO is talking about Apple shipping boxen with preproduction chips. That's madness.

However, as with the MPC7450, supply might be constrained enough for Apple to ship the 970 only in the top end of the line initially, and stagger the other releases like they did with the LCD iMac. This way Apple gets the 970 out as soon as possible (and makes a lot of money off the premium for the top of the line PM), while purging the G4 from the line and giving IBM time to crank them out in earnest.

If they do this, the most delayed PowerMac 970 should ship right about the time that Apple stops selling the Dual 1.25GHz to Mac OS 9 customers. Perfect.

I'm still not expecting the 970 before MWNY or Seybold, but I'm willing to be surprised.

[ 01-10-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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post #55 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>
Whatever. I just desperately need to upgrade from my 7.5 year old 7500, so I'm really hopeful. (I really want to start using X.)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Holy smokes just get anything, even ibook 700 will be a vast improvement over that. trust me.
post #56 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>

Wow, 40 years of studying, and you've never read this?

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment."

Whether people follow it is another matter entirely.

Sorry to bring this thread OT, I'll stop now.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wasn't talking about God, I was talking about organized religion (especially the senior members of their hierarchies). Ever seen the Pope's house? Do you have any idea what rabbis make these days? How about those Baptist leaders with their mansions? I could go on and on, but you're right, it's OT so:

quote:

Originally posted by KidRed:

I don't think so. They would drop the 1ghz and the 1.25ghz would be the low end. If they can get up to 1.4ghz, they can get a 1.3ghz. The highend usually becomes the low end.


1.25, 1.3 and 1.4? No way - it would hurt sales of the fastest box (which has the highest profit margin). A dual 1GHz tower at the low end is still quite a bit more powerful than a single 1GHz iMac so there's no problem there.
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post #57 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>I don't think TO is talking about Apple shipping boxen with preproduction chips. That's madness.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My appologies that is what I thought I was reading. I was also attempting to show that preproduction and production are two seperate things.
<strong> [quote]
However, as with the MPC7450, supply might be constrained enough for Apple to ship the 970 only in the top end of the line initially, and stagger the other releases like they did with the LCD iMac. This way Apple gets the 970 out as soon as possible (and makes a lot of money off the premium for the top of the line PM), while purging the G4 from the line and giving IBM time to crank them out in earnest.

If they do this, the most delayed PowerMac 970 should ship right about the time that Apple stops selling the Dual 1.25GHz to Mac OS 9 customers. Perfect.

I'm still not expecting the 970 before MWNY or Seybold, but I'm willing to be surprised.

[ 01-10-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed, I'm hoping for June or July. I'm not however attempting to argue my way into being right. In fact I hope I'm wrong and they arrive much earlier. Egg on the face I can take, but to be honest I'll wait for round two, hopefully the kinks will be worked out.

[ 01-10-2003: Message edited by: Brendon ]</p>
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post #58 of 132
Just because the 970 is ready to ship doesn't mean Apple can ships machines with it in them. There is still quite a bit of work to do on the support chips and the board design and changes to OS X that all need to be done before a machine can be sent out the door. I am sure Apple has had some chips for a while to help with this testing and design but changes to the 970 would require changes to the work Apple has completed.

I think that the second half of the year is probably pretty accurate before we see a real machine shipping.

Then again, what do I know?

[ 01-10-2003: Message edited by: Kurt ]</p>
post #59 of 132
"I guess this should be something clever or funny."

Why should you be any different from the rest of us?

[ 01-10-2003: Message edited by: gfeier ]</p>
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post #60 of 132
this year's outlook is really good, let them take their sweet ass time getting the 970's ready, it would be nice to have a rev.1 machine without problems for once!
post #61 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by gfeier:
<strong>
I wasn't talking about God, I was talking about organized religion (especially the senior members of their hierarchies).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ah, then I have no quarel with you, good sir.

Kurt and Brendon

No, I didn't mean pre-production chips. I just believe that Apple has had enough samples to do the bulk of the design work, and the design in frozen now (acording to my sources) and Apple would definately get samples from the final design versions, so they may have them already. If the 970 really does enter production in March, then they could concievably have a few chips to slap 'n' ship by the last day of April. ('course there can always be problems in production forcing an additional design change. Hope not).

All I'm saying: I hear production starts in March, and I believe that Steve could possibly annouce and (only technically) ship some boxes before April is out.

But I could be wrong.


All

And, I must say, for all involved in this thread: it is refreshing to have such a civil conversation in AI. The last several posts have been excellent in that regard (no, I don't mean mine).

But, alas, I probably just jinxed it :o

(BTW, what the heck does that [ :o ] smilie mean?)
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post #62 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Rhumgod:
<strong>Wouldn't you consider it a design failure if it didn't out-produce a 604e?</strong><hr></blockquote>

"failure"? No -- it met its design goals to be a high performance 64-bit PowerPC. The 604 met its goal to be a high performance 32-bit PowerPC. Almost nobody at the time wanted a 64-bit PowerPC, so the 604/604e was a better solution (simpler, cheaper, faster). Remember, running 32-bit code is faster than running 64-bit code.
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post #63 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>
Kurt and Brendon

No, I didn't mean pre-production chips. I just believe that Apple has had enough samples to do the bulk of the design work, and the design in frozen now (acording to my sources) and Apple would definately get samples from the final design versions, so they may have them already. If the 970 really does enter production in March, then they could concievably have a few chips to slap 'n' ship by the last day of April. ('course there can always be problems in production forcing an additional design change. Hope not).

All I'm saying: I hear production starts in March, and I believe that Steve could possibly annouce and (only technically) ship some boxes before April is out.

But I could be wrong.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you are right (and I hope you are) I would guess that Pixar is swimming in them. I'm guessing that Pixar either is or soon will be the test bed for new Apple hardware. Steve would have much better control of leaks that way. I must have just mis-read your post. Also I believe that the Apple system chip is the main chip to be redesigned, but the memory system may require major rework to keep latency down, don't know much hear.
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post #64 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>No, I didn't mean pre-production chips. I just believe that Apple has had enough samples to do the bulk of the design work, and the design in frozen now (acording to my sources) and Apple would definately get samples from the final design versions, so they may have them already. If the 970 really does enter production in March, then they could concievably have a few chips to slap 'n' ship by the last day of April. ('course there can always be problems in production forcing an additional design change. Hope not).

All I'm saying: I hear production starts in March, and I believe that Steve could possibly annouce and (only technically) ship some boxes before April is out.

But I could be wrong.

But, alas, I probably just jinxed it :o

(BTW, what the heck does that [ :o ] smilie mean?)</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you're right (and I sure hope you are), I would expect the actual systems to be announced at MWNY, not earlier. It isn't only hardware here. These are not moto chips, as well as being 64 bit, and it's reasonable to expect a few nasty surprises when Apple starts testing them with a wide range of third party software. I would be delighted to see them actually ship by Septmber. I have rarely seen the optimistic predictions come true with the towers - the pessimists most always turn out to be right. I'm really looking forward to the hype for MWNY since it was almost nonexistent for MWSF.

BTW, I always thought that :o signified embarassment.
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post #65 of 132
I'd be willing to bet that Apple has been testing with 970 samples for a while already. IBM's announcement of "sample Q1 03" is probably just the public availability of samples, and it doesn't actually say anything in particular about when Apple started getting them.
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post #66 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Brendon:
<strong>

More than likely Apple will wait for full production, I believe, and I'm guessing now that Apple is selling around 250,000 to 300,000 PowerMacs per quarter. I could see that number tripling easy, so around 1,000,000 per quarter. </strong><hr></blockquote>

176,000 powermacs last quarter, this quarter's results aren't out. That's up 10,000 over the previous quarter - which is a _very_ small jump due to the speed bumps in August. If Apple doubled that I think there'd be dancing in the streets. Just saying that a million powermacs a quarter is too much to aim for - they can't stock up THAT much inventory unless the computer is amazingly compelling. If Apple is prepared for double the current rate (say 400,000), it is pretty reasonable to turn around and say 'jeez, we sold out!'.
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/oct/16earnings.html" target="_blank">Apple 4Q Report</a>
post #67 of 132
BTW does anybody know exactly what is wrong with the Motorola fab? I would think that these yield problems would extend to their entire line of processors including the embedded ones and be very bad for business.

Is it lack of good talent? Is it management? Is it equipment? Money? I mean AMD (partly because of Mot) and Nvidia have their yield problems but this is crazy.
post #68 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>
.

Kurt and Brendon

No, I didn't mean pre-production chips. I just believe that Apple has had enough samples to do the bulk of the design work, and the design in frozen now (acording to my sources) and Apple would definately get samples from the final design versions, so they may have them already. If the 970 really does enter production in March, then they could concievably have a few chips to slap 'n' ship by the last day of April. ('course there can always be problems in production forcing an additional design change. Hope not).

All I'm saying: I hear production starts in March, and I believe that Steve could possibly annouce and (only technically) ship some boxes before April is out.

But I could be wrong.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you have a source with real information than that is great. I certainly would like to see the 970 as soon as possible. My thoughts were pure guesses with the limited information I have seen on the web. I know enough about chip design (which isn' much) to know that designing the support chips and boards is no small task. Especially when you think that the bus architecture and speeds are changing significantly. This will certainly be no little speed bump and a whole new skill set for Apple engineers.

Just curious to anyone who knows chip production. If they are planning to release the chips in the second half, does that mean the chips are finalized? Or are there last minute revisions possible?

I used to think that the change in memory types in the last Powermac revision meant that the 970 wouldn't be ready for some time. There was not a huge improvement in the overall speed of the machines and it must have been a pretty big investment if the 970's were close. But seeing it in the new 17" Powerbook seems to indicate that that architecture is probably due to arrive in the next generation of iMacs and generally work its way down the line. That would make sense as to why they developed it.

You said the design was frozen. Any hints as to what it might look like? I.E. memory type, single/dual processors, new case, BENCHMARKS!!


Thanks.
post #69 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by nebcon65:
<strong>BTW does anybody know exactly what is wrong with the Motorola fab? I would think that these yield problems would extend to their entire line of processors including the embedded ones and be very bad for business.

Is it lack of good talent? Is it management? Is it equipment? Money? I mean AMD (partly because of Mot) and Nvidia have their yield problems but this is crazy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Six sigma.
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post #70 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Kurt:
<strong>
Just curious to anyone who knows chip production. If they are planning to release the chips in the second half, does that mean the chips are finalized? Or are there last minute revisions possible?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very minor revisions are common (call "steppings" by some companies, I think). These are generally just bug fixes, which (in addition to outright incorrect function) include correcting problems that limit clock rate and yields.

Apple's work on a DDR chipset doesn't just get "thrown away". It will migrate to the low end, plus these things are usually designed in a modular fashion so the design & layout work can be probably be reused in a RapidIO or HT based chipset. Internally they could even design the thing in 2 halves which internally communicate using HyperTransport, so replacing one half or the other isn't too big a deal.

Apple's chipset includes several pieces of functionality:
  • MPX bus interface
  • AGP bus interface
  • Memory controller
  • I/O system interface

I split AGP out because it has higher bandwidth requirements that the rest of the I/O system so it might be appropriate to attach it directly to the memory controller. These pieces of functionality will likely need to be divided between a couple of chips in a 970 system, and some mechanism like HT or RIO introduced to communicate between them. This division may have already been done internally to the existing chipset.
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post #71 of 132
I would think IBM would have a pretty easy time to get these out early for Apple since clock speed doesn't really matter at this point since moto is at 1.2 and these new chips could be used in quads if apple wanted too. Quad 1.2-1.4 ghz 970's sound nice to me

Also i read a while back on news.com way before talk of the 970 about IBM's megaherz goals...and I beleive I remember them mentioning being above 4 ghz around 2004 so I believe these puppies will scale well eventually unlike some other powerpc see makers

[ 01-11-2003: Message edited by: Producer ]</p>
post #72 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Nevyn:
<strong>

176,000 powermacs last quarter, this quarter's results aren't out. That's up 10,000 over the previous quarter - which is a _very_ small jump due to the speed bumps in August. If Apple doubled that I think there'd be dancing in the streets. Just saying that a million powermacs a quarter is too much to aim for - they can't stock up THAT much inventory unless the computer is amazingly compelling. If Apple is prepared for double the current rate (say 400,000), it is pretty reasonable to turn around and say 'jeez, we sold out!'.
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/oct/16earnings.html" target="_blank">Apple 4Q Report</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the correction, I should not rely on memory. 400,000 powermace would be a nice change.

So I think I'm hearing that IBM will be shipping 970's in March, Apple would be wise to stock-up during at least part of the ramp-up, which would put possible release dates around April or May??
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post #73 of 132
Also IBM is ramping up for Apple and themselves..I mean it's not like Intel ramping up needing millions of these processors to fill supply...Apple just needs enough at first to supply the Powermac line and the Xserve which would only be in the 10s of thousands per month...and if Apple first introduced the chip in the Xserve then it would only need a few thousand chips to start off with...
post #74 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by gfeier:
<strong>

Six sigma.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ha! That's pretty funny. Motorola popularized this back in the 1980s.
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post #75 of 132
Dual 1.43s then?

I wonder if the dual gigger will be the bottom end?

Ati 9700 option? Geforce Fx?

I'd like to see deep price cuts. Couple of hundred for each model.

I can't see them selling the 'pre-970' model if they don't.

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post #76 of 132
...i like the ides of it getting updated so much...perhaps too much <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
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post #77 of 132
Does anyone remember the schematics regarding the G4 in the Motorola pdf, where they showed that the max speed of the 7450 was 1ghz? According to this, and other peoples' claims, the 1.25ghz G4 was just an overclocked 1ghz. If this is true, how does this affect the likelihood of seeing a non updated (7450) G4 reaching 1.4ghz+?
post #78 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by nebcon65:
<strong>BTW does anybody know exactly what is wrong with the Motorola fab? I would think that these yield problems would extend to their entire line of processors including the embedded ones and be very bad for business.

Is it lack of good talent? Is it management? Is it equipment? Money? I mean AMD (partly because of Mot) and Nvidia have their yield problems but this is crazy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Poor management -&gt; lack of money -&gt; the need to cut corners, such as shutting off fans in their fabs to cut down on (mammoth) electricity bills. Mot shut down all their older fabs (cost again) and farmed out production to contractors such as TSMC, so the products they make that don't have to be fabbed on the latest and greatest don't suffer from the state of Mot's own fabs. When Mot moves to .09 micron, they'll be able to use a fab built by STM in France, courtesy of a recent partnership.

Six Sigma had been abandoned, and was only recently reinstated, so I don't think that's the problem - except to the extent that in the current state of Mot's fabs it's all but impossible to meet that standard of quality. But then, Mot aren't using their own fabs for much of their own product line; before long, they won't even be using them for cutting-edge fabrication.

[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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post #79 of 132
[quote]Originally posted by Lemmingway:
<strong>Does anyone remember the schematics regarding the G4 in the Motorola pdf, where they showed that the max speed of the 7450 was 1ghz?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you mean the 745x family (Mot currently makes the 7455) they still advertize a top speed of 1GHz.

[quote]<strong>According to this, and other peoples' claims, the 1.25ghz G4 was just an overclocked 1ghz. If this is true, how does this affect the likelihood of seeing a non updated (7450) G4 reaching 1.4ghz+?</strong><hr></blockquote>

They're not overclocked AFAIK, they're just parts that beat the spec, available in enough numbers to supply Apple for their top of the line machine.

I can't imagine the 7455 reaching 1.4GHz. 25% over the design maximum is already unusual (at least, when it's in saleable quantities). There's a die-shrunk 7455 in the works (apparently called the 7457), and that will account for the next G4 speed increase.
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post #80 of 132
"There's a die-shrunk 7455 in the works (apparently called the 7457), and that will account for the next G4 speed increase."

I hope it's targeted for the iMac revision.

Duals for the 'power'Macs.

Not that it matters to me...



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